Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Materialist: If You Can’t Win, Obfuscate

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The point of UD’s contest (“UD Puts up $1,000 Prize“) is to demonstrate in a practical way that design theory does not depend upon a suspension of natural law (i.e., supernatural miracles). Once again, here is the contest: “UD hereby offers a $1,000 prize to anyone who is able to demonstrate that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent necessarily requires a supernatural act (i.e., the suspension of the laws of nature).”

Now it should be obvious that a materialist cannot win the contest. Materialists believe that living things “appear” to be designed. As Richard Dawkins wrote, “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” However, materialists believe that this appearance of design is an illusion that can be explained by purely natural means. “[Natural selection theory] is so important for the Darwinian because it permits the explanation of adaptation, the design of the natural theologian, by natural means, instead of by divine intervention.” Ernst Mayr

I am now going to make an “a fortiori” argument, i.e. arguing from the greater to the lesser proposition: If a materialist believes that blind unguided natural forces can account for the “design” of living things, how could he ever argue that, in principle, it would require a miracle for an intelligent agent to replicate that “design.” Indeed, the whole point of experiments like the famous Miller-Urey experiment is to show “how nature did it.” The ultimate goal of these experiments is for intelligent agents (i.e., the experimenters) to replicate the natural process by which life began. It would be logically incoherent for a materialist to point to the (very) limited success of these experiments as evidence that natural processes can produce living things and at the same time claim that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent requires a miracle.

 But facts and logic rarely stop our materialist opponents. Faced with an unanswerable argument, they usually resort to obfuscation tactics such as “I just can’t understand what the words you are using mean.” I am reminded of the old legal chestnut: “If the law is on  your side, pound on the law; if the facts are on your side, pound on the facts; if neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound on the table.” 

Markf pounds on the table when he writes:

 This [i.e., the contest] is unclear in at last three respects:

* What counts as “supernatural”

 * What counts as “necessarily” – logically necessary, physically necessary?

 * Whether the act has to be part of the design process or just be necessary for the design process to happen (in whatever sense of “necessary” is intended)

 Kairosfocus answers: The uncertainties are plainly manufactured:

a: unless otherwise notified, the supernatural is used in the ordinary sense — any special one needs to be justified

 b: the issue is causal process, so the issue is whether design and implementation of life requires a miracle or could in reasonable principle be done by engineering — which was of course shown long since.

c: If a causal process is a design process, the miracle would obviously have to be part of that process, not in some vague background.

Comments
I did ask if the contest was limited in scope, or whether it addressed the larger ID hypothesis. The answer was it included the question of whether ID requires at least one intervention.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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If no reward were offered with the original post, would it have generated as much discussion about the meanings of words? I doubt it. When rewards are offered, it provides motivation to participate, even if the proposition is not logically consistent with the participant viewpoint. So what is the benefit and purpose of the argument?fmarotta
September 15, 2011
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Interesting question. It spawns a plethora of sub-questions. Most biologists would argue that life is contingent. Restart the universe and the history would be quite different. There is no "destiny" shaping the direction of physical or biological evolution. I personally don't think this line of thinking can be resolved by reason or by research. To me it will remain a mystery. But I think nearly all biologists assert that nearly all the history of live did not involve multi-celled organisms, that about 80 percent of protein coding genes evolved in this period, and that early organisms exchanged genes rather freely. These are the kinds of questions that can be addressed by research. Maybe never proved, but certainly affirmed or contradicted. The question of whether any of this history was the result of intervention does not, I believe, suggest any line of research that could confirm or disconfirm an hypothesis.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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I think several posters suggested a satisfactory operational definition of natural, as opposed to supernatural. That would involve humans or agents equivalent to humans designing a living thing, for the purpose of the contest. It does not have the common ambiguity of "natural vs artificial" that pops up in discussions of products. It clearly implies divine intervention or intervention by a non-material agent. The problem is not ambiguity, but scope. If the existence of the intelligent agent requires a supernatural intervention, then everything produced by the agent could not exist without that intervention.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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If a supernatural intervention were required to prevent an infinite regression of natural designers, then why wouldn't it also be required to prevent an infinite regression of natural non-design causes? In other words, what does design or non-design have to do with it?ScottAndrews
September 15, 2011
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Casey Luskin has recently argued that God can cause things using natural means. I'm not sure how this works unless he is referring to things embodied in the original creation event. That is Michael Denton's current position. In such a scenario, design by humans still derives from an initial supernatural intervention. ID seems to encompass a wide spectrum of interpretations, ranging from the "Nature's Destiny" position, to continuous creation. Some ID proponents seem willing to accept the possibility that common descent is true, and that the history of change can be the result of known kinds of genomic events. Some, Like Behe, appear to believe that can account for some, but not all of historical change. Some seem to believe it can account for common descent, but not for origin of life. I would be curious to know if there is anything common to all ID advocates that would suggest a way to resolve these differences. Some avenue of research.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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But the word "supernatural" is not clear, Barry. What you are calling "obfuscation" is the problem we run into all the time in these discussions. The scientists ask for operational definitions, because without operational definitions, you have no objective criteria by which to decide whether or not the claim or challenge has been met. So: what do you mean by "supernatural"?Elizabeth Liddle
September 15, 2011
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So if intelligent agents capable of designing living things can be natural, than ID is an unnecessary hypothesis.
Unless the hypothesis is explicitly limited with regard a causal chain, for example inferring murder, or examining an archaeological site. In these instances the 'by design', or perhaps more appropriately 'intentional' hypothesis is intertwined with prior knowledge of the intentional agent (or perhaps 'the suspect!' )DrBot
September 15, 2011
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Hmm, now you're confusing me. I think by any reasonable definition, there is nothing Mankind can ever do - individually or collectively - that can be claimed to be truly miraculous. Thus if it can be shown that Mankind can create even one life form, then the creation of life in general does not necessarily require a miracle. So far, so good, but in regards to Creation, here's where it gets murky:
Amongst recent Catholic theologians there is a practically uniform tendency to interpret the traditional and Scriptural data as postulating the creative act to account for the origin of unembodied spirits (the angels), of the primordial matter of the universe, and of the human soul. The development of the universe, the introduction of plant and animal life, the formation of the first human bodies can be explained by the administrative or formative activity of God, an activity which is sometimes called second creation (secunda creatio), and does not demand the creative act as such.
So a Catholic scientist can say that "blind unguided natural forces [as understood by science] can account for the 'design' of living things" whilst believing that these same forces are the activity of God [as understood by theology]. Thus, like the materialist, the Catholic scientist who is a Theistic Evolutionary proponent can not win the contest. And this is supposed to prove something meaningful?rhampton7
September 15, 2011
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how could he ever argue that, in principle, it would require a miracle for an intelligent agent to replicate that “design.”
One reasons from premises, and for the sake of argument, one can reason from someone else's premises. I brought up the issue of whether this contest has implications for the larger ID hypothesis, and you affirmed it does. You appear to be separating the ID hypothesis from the necessity of supernatural intervention, trying not to make the larger ID hypothesis entirely moot. You insert into your contest a given, the existence of human designers (or intelligent agents), with the hidden assumption that humans (or the intelligent agents) are entirely natural. But ID supporters deny that humans or intelligent agents can be undesigned and therefore natural. They would not exist unless designed. At some point in the chain of design there must be a first designer that is the result of intervention or the result of natural processes. If the overall design hypothesis is true, the chain of design requires an initial intervention. So if intelligent agents capable of designing living things can be natural, than ID is an unnecessary hypothesis. If they cannot be entirely the product of natural processes, then their products cannot exist without an intervention in the chain of causation. It is unsatisfactory merely to assert that this has been refuted innumerable times. This and the contest threads are matters of record. Either the refutation must be posted here, or links to refutations must be posted.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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No, the witness refused to rise to the obfuscation bait.Barry Arrington
September 15, 2011
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Objection! Witness failed to answer the question.paragwinn
September 15, 2011
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"What does 'unguided natural forces' mean here?" See! There they go again. It beggars belief.Barry Arrington
September 15, 2011
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it would require a miracle for an intelligent agent to replicate that “design.”
I'd like to know how a materialist would define "miracle" in the first place as it's usually used in a theistic context, well 9/10 times anyway. Perhaps 'Impossible according to the laws of physics' covers it, but that must presuppose a complete knowledge of those laws in order to be able to make that claim?GailPlatt
September 15, 2011
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If a materialist believes that blind unguided natural forces can account for the “design” of living things, how could he ever argue that, in principle, it would require a miracle for an intelligent agent to replicate that “design.”
What does "unguided natural forces" mean here? Is a heat seeking air to air missile to be considered unguided? There is no human or other intelligent being guiding it. But we usually think of it as being guided by the feedback system that was built into the missile. There are lots of naturally occurring feedback systems. Biology is rich with them. But even weather systems and ocean tides are guided by naturally occurring feedback systems. On the "replicate that design" issue, suppose that I shuffle a deck of cards and deal out a hand at bridge. If you then shuffle the deck and deal out another hand, it would take a miracle (or sophisticated cheating) to replicate the hand that I had previously dealt. Your use of "replicate" here is misleading.Neil Rickert
September 15, 2011
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The learned fool writes his nonsense in better language than the unlearned, but still 'tis nonsense. ~ Benjamin Franklin God condescended to argue with Job, but the last Darwinian will not condescend to argue with you. He will inform you of your ignorance; he will not enlighten your ignorance. And I will add this point of merely personal experience of humanity: when men have a real explanation they explain it, eagerly and copiously and in common speech, as Huxley freely gave it when he thought he had it. When they have no explanation to offer, they give short dignified replies, disdainful of the ignorance of the multitude. ~ GK Chestertonbevets
September 15, 2011
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