Materialists Know What They Say is False. They Say it Anyway

_{Barry Arrington
January 21, 2022

Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design}

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Otherwise, they would have to give up their materialism.

Recently I posted about a woman who was charged with attempted murder when she put a newborn baby in a garbage bag and tossed him in a dumpster to die. Here is an exchange I had with Seversky regarding that post:

Barry:

Is it objectively evil to put a baby in a garbage bag and throw him in a dumpster or is it just your subjective preference not to do so?

Seversky:

the overwhelming majority regard dumping newborns in dumpsters as being evil

Barry:

Suppose the overwhelming majority regarded dumping newborns in dumpsters as good. Would it then be good?

Seversky:

Presumably, it would be good in the minds of the majority who approved of it. It would not be a good thing from my perspective.

There you have it. Sev’s position is this: They would prefer tossing babies in dumpsters and I would not. There is no basis on which to determine which preference is superior. Therefore, the preferences are objectively equal.

As I have said before, no sane person actually lives their life as if materialism is true. But Sev’s religious commitments compel him to pretend he believes it is true. Which leads him to say that he holds an outrageous position that we can be certain he does not truly hold. Sad that.

Comments

SB said:
You scoff and sneer ... ... ... they don’t hate just any god. they hate the real God, ...
It's dawning on me what is going on here with SB, Zweston, LCD, Querius, Jerry and KF. You'll have to pardon me while I engage in some armchair psychology here. From what they say and the way they say it, It seems to me that what is going on here is a form of projection. They speak as if we know that what they are saying is true. Such as, "we hate God" as if the only available God is the Christian version, or as if it is our versions of God. They feel completely comfortable mind-reading us, telling us what our motivations are, how we feel about things, when we're being deceitful or "purposefully" doing nefarious thing here and why we are doing the things we are doing. They seem to be projecting themselves onto us, and then basically computing what they would be feeling, what their motivations would be, why they would say the say the things we say. They would have to "hate God" to say the things we say. They would have to be rejecting God - the "real" God - to say the things we say. SB would be "scoffing and sneering" or insincere or lying or deceiving if he said the things I say. For Jerry to say the things I say, he'd have to be lying and just trying to get attention. Etc. Here's the reason: their worldview demands that we are like them. Their worldview demands that we know what they know and think like they think and act for the same reasons they would be acting the way we do. They are so deeply enmeshed in their beliefs that they cannot see outside of that perspective. Other people must know they are "rejecting THE God" or else even they cannot justify their fate. SB must believe that people in hell prefer to be there, as ghastly as that perspective is. It seems they really cannot comprehend that there are entirely different things going on in the mind of other people. They cannot comprehend that we don't "hate God." I can't say there's anything I "hate." From my perspective, all I'm doing is talking about a hypothesis or a theory, nothing more. I'm not saying that eternal torment is evil because "I hate God" or "I reject Christianity;" I'm just saying that I as clearly see that particular concept to be evil as I see the example in the OP to be evil. I have noticed that these people have a profound inability to see things from any other perspective. It occurs all the time in their responses. It's especially noticeable when we correct them about something having to do with our own views, and then a short time later they say the incorrect thing again. They will even "correct" us about our own thoughts and motivations. They will not accept that they have made an incorrect inference from something we said. And here' the essence of the problem and why it is near intractable: they must believe these thing about us or there may be eternal hell to pay. They must ignore even the most blatantly obvious issues facing them, and find some way to justify them, because they have a very powerful and fearful being looking over their shoulder at all times. But, as I said, that's just my armchair psychological perspective.William J Murray_{January 24, 2022
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F/N: Instead, let us refocus, drawing on the first duties of reason that is key to the point BA raised in the OP:
Barry: Is it objectively evil to put a baby in a garbage bag and throw him in a dumpster or is it just your subjective preference not to do so? Seversky: the overwhelming majority regard dumping newborns in dumpsters as being evil Barry: Suppose the overwhelming majority regarded dumping newborns in dumpsters as good. Would it then be good? Seversky: Presumably, it would be good in the minds of the majority who approved of it. It would not be a good thing from my perspective. There you have it. Sev’s position is this: They would prefer tossing babies in dumpsters and I would not. There is no basis on which to determine which preference is superior. Therefore, the preferences are objectively equal. As I have said before, no sane person actually lives their life as if materialism is true.
Here, we see studied evasion reflecting the core relativist thesis, being shown to be absurd on its face. Do we see, then, retraction? No, we see a distractor and sidetracking, enabling the absurdity. So, instead, let us refocus the pervasive, branch on which we must all sit Ciceronian first duties of reason, first, built in law partly constitutive of our rational, responsible freedom:
1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.
Yes, a testimony to the wellsprings from which we have come, and the source of the very capacities some have used to object; in the end, to being made as we are: responsibly, rationally free. Notice, how the objections consistently, inevitably appeal to said duties, to gain plausibility? A big clue as to what is going on at root. So, now, will we be willing to acknowledge that this first law of our nature is real, is there, calls out for us to respond to its only credible source? Predictably, for many, not. In which case we need to consider why i/l/o the telling observations in Ep. Rom. KFkairosfocus_{January 24, 2022
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Zweston said:
You believe Jesus resurrected?
Sure.
How about the prophecies that predicted that very thing as well as a suffering servant, the “SON OF MAN” from Daniel 7, and all the other types and shadows of Jesus in the Old Testament.
You bet.
So, what would it take for you recognize the authority of Jesus. What else would he have to do in order to demonstrate He is God?
Perhaps you didn't understand me earlier. Since I don't know what "evidence of someone being God" would look like, I have no way to answer that question. I don't know why you think the resurrection is evidence of Jesus being God. Perhaps you could explain that to me?
And again, I’d point back to the root of your rejection of Christianity…simply hell. No observable facts, archaeology, cosmology, or historical proof holds you up from belief…. you just don’t like the idea of someone being in charge and making you subject to them…or so it seems.
No. It's not that I "just don’t like the idea of someone being in charge and making me subject to them." I never said that. I said exactly and specifically the reason I left Christianity. I've stated exactly and specifically two deal-breakers so far.
In one breath you will say the resurrection happened, and in the next breath you call the God of the Bible hypothetical.
It's interesting that you keep returning to this, as if you find this two positions irreconcilable. Why is the resurrection of Christ evidence that he is God?
And, you have said that basically there would be nothing stopping you from acknowledging God if everyone went to heaven… but it still wouldn’t compel you to change your lifestyle.
I don't think I actually said anything like that. I basically said that if I knew that ontology was correct, I would make every effort to change my lifestyle, but unfortunately there are things about me that I cannot change that might prevent me from getting into that heaven for a very long time - like loving God.William J Murray_{January 24, 2022
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PS, on hell. As Ep Rom documents and experience confirms, hell begins here with turning our backs on and refusing to acknowledge God thus debasing our minds, hearts and lives, descending into chaos through reprobate lives and communities. This is why I keep pointing out that the doors of hell are locked, bolted and barred from the inside. And as a primary metaphor, the dump of ge hinnon shows, the chaos is self-inflicted, the torments are of our own manufacture: professing ourselves wise we resort to ruinous, go over the cliff folly. What combustion burning what fuel in what oxidiser could burn a spiritual entity? Not even a fluorine fire that can burn a brick. No, we are seeing a metaphor for burning passions, resentments, rages, frustrations, hates, perverse thinking etc going on and on and on into worse and worse states of degradation tied to persistently, willfully turning one's back on the good. Do what thou wilt (in perverse self-will) is, ironically, the very fire of hell itself.kairosfocus_{January 24, 2022
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VL, 86:
Are you OK with your belief that if someone doesn’t believe what Jesus said about his role in salvation, they are going to have an eternity of torment in hell, irrespective of how good a life they lead?
There are different kinds and degrees of ignorance, some primary and innocent [lack of access to relevant experiences etc], some culpable due to refusal to acknowledge truth one should know, i.e. fleeing light for dark corners. The latter case points to the contradiction in your premises, which fatally undermines your argument. Let's roll the tape from above, citing and extending a key foundational work of Christian teaching, Ep. Rom:
Rom 2: 6 He [God] will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality . . . . 14 For when Gentiles [= ethnoi, here, members of peoples in general], who do not have the [--> Mosaic, written] law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts [--> conscience and the branch on which we sit first duties/first law of our nature], while their conscience also bears witness [--> sound conscience is a aw], and their conflicting thoughts [--> challenge to clarify truth] accuse or even excuse [--> reason, esp. right reason towards moral truth, this stuff is truly pervasive] them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus . . . . 13: 8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Where, in ch 1 we see, tellingly, given your dismissiveness towards God, above:
Rom 1: 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them [people], because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature [--> God is manifest in power to create an intricately contrived world, especially one with morally governed creatures in it, where IS-OUGHT can only be fused through an inherently good, utterly wise necessary being at root of reality] , have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made [--> world around, inner morally governed rational life within; abuse of the gift of reason to suppress compelling truth about the root of reality is therefore grossly warped and wrongful]. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him [--> suppression of what one knows or should acknowledge about ultimate, root reality], but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling [--> images, they have made to look like] mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. [--> then, in temples, nowadays, too often, in museums, magazines, textbooks, science documentaries etc] 24 Therefore God gave them up [--> the key judgement: be it unto you as thou wilt . . . but a voyage of folly like this predictably shipwrecks, in this life and beyond] in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because [--> notice, the warping that leads to ruin] they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! . . . . 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God [--> discarding, marginalising and disregarding God], God gave them up [--> as thou wilt, again] to a debased mind [--> notice, disintegration of right reason guided by sound conscience, directed to truth and to right conduct] to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [--> notice, the avalanche of spreading evils driven by breakdown of reasonable restraint] 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die [--> death as separation, here, separation from the source of all good, God, i.e. they are on the road to hell], they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. [--> moral inversion, where manifest evils are viewed as good and good as evil, enabling the devastating spread of evil in a community or civilisation]
So, no, your premise falls apart, even the judgement of what is "good" becomes doubtful. And, ignorance due to lack of access to the evidence regarding Jesus of Nazareth may be innocent, but willful suppression of accessible evidence on him through selectively hyperskeptical dismissal -- double standards on warrant -- and/or refusal to attend to duty to accessible truth is another matter entirely. One, that -- sadly . . . is not at all so innocent. (Kindly, see here on for a 101.) Please, reconsider. KFkairosfocus_{January 24, 2022
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Ram
Moreover, your view assumes the human spirits are not rehabilitate-able.
Human spirits can be rehabilitated in this life. That is what repentance is all about. Human spirits cannot be rehabilitated in the next life because the opportunity for repentance has passed. It is what we did in this life that will be judged.
It also assumes the bad choices humans make are based on something other than their temporary human nature, and ignorance. There is zero empirical evidence for this.
. No, it doesn’t assume that. Humans also make bad choices out of malice and radical selfishness, which is one important reason why they go to Hell.
Hindus, Buddhists and many “esoteric” religions reject eternal torture and believe in karma and reincarnation with eventual bliss for every person.
Well of course they do. Why do you think they were invented? Jesus Christ, on the other hand, earned the right to speak for God because He was God. What he said and did while He was here on this earth proved his point. No other religious leader ever did anything that even comes close to establishing himself as an equivalent moral authority.StephenB_{January 24, 2022
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Ram
God could simply annihilate “lost” persons instead of monstrously torturing them forever.
The question about why it must be forever has already been answered. As I wrote above, punishment must be eternal because the decision to reject God is a desire to be separated from him for as long as He lives, which is forever. The "torture" is primarily in the total separation of the soul from God, something that doesn't happen in this life, even to the God haters. Getting stuck on Mars or some other "dusty planet" doesn't remove the torture factor because the soul's radical separation from God would still be there. So some form of torture is required because torture is inherent in the separation. Indeed, eternal boredom would be another kind of torture, albeit not physical. On the other hand, not all tortures in Hell are of equal intensity since not all crimes are equally offensive. Treason is worse than violence, which in turn, is worse that libertinism.StephenB_{January 23, 2022
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Ram Hindus, Buddhists and many “esoteric” religions reject eternal torture and believe in karma and reincarnation with eventual bliss for every person.
Now we understand why you hate God and who is your god . :idea: :lol: Mr. Adolf Hitler sent you friend request . Please confirm. Mr. Joseph Stalin sent you friend request. Please confirm. Mr. Mao Zedong sent you friend request. Please confirm. Mr. Pol Pot sent you friend request . Please confirm. Mr. Heinrich Himmler sent you friend request . Please confirm. Mr.Saddam Hussein sent you friend request . Please confirm. ...... ..... ..... Mr. Al Capone sent you friend request . Please confirm. Mr. Ted Bundy sent you friend request . Please confirm. Ram- the most loving (and moral :twisted: )person in the universe. The advocat , supporter and protector of all criminals from history. :lol:Lieutenant Commander Data_{January 23, 2022
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Ram, I don't assume the Bible is reliable. It verifies itself through fulfilled prophecies... a lot of them, archaeology, history, textual criticism, etc. And Jesus himself validated it (OT) through quoting it over and over again and raising from the dead on the third day (the sign of Jonah). the Bible is unlike any other book in history and we have more reason to trust it than any other ancient document. I'd like to hear your theory as to why his disciples would have died gruesome deaths for no earthly benefit while they would have KNOWN they were living a lie? Re: Jewish hell.... Daniel 12:2 would be an answer. If you want to claim "that can mean other things" then we still both know an argument from silence isn't a strong argument to make. The Jews reject Jesus for the idea that God could come in the flesh...and it's clear they were wrong. The Old Testament affirms eternal life and eternal judgment. Now, it isn't fully developed, but neither is heaven in the OT. What doesn't follow from this argument is the Bible isn't reliable or that hell doesn't exist. Not totally related, but there is even good evidence from Near-Death Experiences that hell exists...up to 20% of NDE's are negative experiences...and those are likely largely underreported as it would be embarrassing to report that. Something of note (although in this particular case may not be valid, I honestly don't know about timelines) why is it that when something has a similarity to Christianity, it is automatically assumed that Christianity stole it from them? Anti-Christian bias. Historical Fact that Jesus died under orders of Pontius Pilate. Logical conclusion with all the other evidence: Jesus rose from the dead. There is no counter explanation that can explain the events that occurred afterwards. Even critical scholars say the disciples must have seen something they thought was the risen Jesus.zweston_{January 23, 2022
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zweston, You assume the New Testament is reliable. I don't. Just because you prefer a different afterlife idea, it doesn’t mean they are true. Right? Same to you. Now, answer this: if the eternal torture concept is true, why did the Hebrew scriptures fail to mention such an important idea? I'll give you a hint: because it's bogus, and pagan from a Hebrew viewpoint. The "lake of fire" concept has it's origins in the Egyptian middle kingdom religion, per the Coffin Texts and Book of the Dead. Made its way into Greek and Persian afterlife concepts, and filtered down into works such as 1 Enoch, which was highly influential on the New Testament. The Hebrew scriptures has none of it. --Ramram_{January 23, 2022
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Ram, What did Jesus say? If he resurrected as everything points to, why should we not believe him? Could it be you (and I) have a gap in understanding and knowledge? Just because Islam decided to adopt Christian views of afterlife doesn't debunk the original... this is a silly appeal. This isn't about what I think or how I value things... it's about what Jesus himself says. Take up your objections with Jesus himself. He spent more time warning others about hell than talking about heaven... why? It must have been important. Just because you prefer a different afterlife idea, it doesn't mean they are true. Right? You appeal to this standard of Good, but what is your standard? Is it just the court of your opinion? This holds no authority if so.zweston_{January 23, 2022
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SB: You continue to miss the point. The suffering in Hell *must* be eternal because the decision to reject God is a desire to be separated from him for as long as He lives, which is forever. Seems like you continue to miss the point: God could simply annihilate "lost" persons instead of monstrously torturing them forever. Or at least toss them onto Mars to roam a dusty and boring planet. Or perhaps some other humane situation. Torture is not a requirement. BTW, Muslims believe in the same sort of monstrous eternal torture that your brand of Christianity does. Some other minor religions have such a concept. Moreover, your view assumes the human spirits are not rehabilitate-able. It also assumes the bad choices humans make are based on something other than their temporary human nature, and ignorance. There is zero empirical evidence for this. Jews generally don't believe in such a monstrous eternal torture, and never have. It's nowhere to be found in the Hebrew scriptures. Although some Rabbis believed that there is a permanent kind of destruction for the very worst of sinners such as a Hitler. Hindus, Buddhists and many "esoteric" religions reject eternal torture and believe in karma and reincarnation with eventual bliss for every person. --Ramram_{January 23, 2022
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WJM
Of course there is no crime that warrants eternal, hopeless torment. We all know this. It’s not even a difficult calculation. It’s preposterous on the face of it.
You continue to miss the point. The suffering in Hell *must* be eternal because the decision to reject God is a desire to be separated from him for as long as He lives, which is forever. In your case, for example, you have made it clear that you will never want any part of the Christian God, no matter what. You scoff and sneer when I insist that many in Hell would be even more unhappy than they are now if they found themselves in heaven with the same God they had always despised. But you are misguided. Many atheists, such as Nietzsche, went on record before they died saying that conscious freedom in Hell is to be preferred over non-existence or annihilation, which would constitute a total lack of suffering. The implication is that many of them would prefer to go on suffering forever rather than lose the opportunity to blaspheme God in their timeless state. I have even known atheists who, while they were alive, laughed at the prospect of eternal suffering and told God, in effect, to "bring it on." Whatever their motives were, I cannot say, but this much is clear: Anyone who doesn't fear Hell is a damned fool.StephenB_{January 23, 2022
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Viola, it doesn't matter what I think or feel about it... it's either true or its not. And my questions were relevant. I believe Jesus has authority to tell me what is true and is trustworthy. Anyone who calls resurrecting and does it, I'm going to trust him. You aren't interested it what is true.. only what feels right to you. People don't go to hell for not believing in Jesus... they go to hell because they are sinners like you and I. God is more Holy (set apart or "other") than any of us can know. He is more righteous than anyone of us can know. They go to hell because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins... you can pay for your sins or Jesus can. It's up to you. We leave the womb being rebellious and never stop to the grave. Many of us never acknowledge the one who created us, gave us life... I think it is completely reasonable to believe that if Jesus said something, then he is telling the truth. I think for a God to die for his creation is worthy of my worship... or when he created everything from nothing by just speaking it into existence. You worship too... just not Jesus. Maybe it's your intellect, relationships, a hobby, career, health, who knows... we all have those proclivities. Ever looked at the sky and realized that we can't even begin to describe the vastness of space? Or looked at molecular cell functions and complexity that happens every second in the billions of times in our bodies and been in awe? Yeah, Jesus did that. He is worthy of our worship. And his sacrificial love is beyond anything earth can produce. Now, I can admit that eternal conscious torment doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, but I can also admit that I don't have one iota of an idea it is to be God and be all knowing, sovereign over all creation, etc. And, as a result, I appeal to the person of Jesus to see God's heart and character. As a result, I can trust that God will deal rightly with mankind. BTW... if you are a materialist (I'm not sure where you stand)... then who cares what anyone does. It doesn't matter...and your moral critiques of God are just your personal preferences and thoughts and carry no authoritative weight. Adam and Eve wanted to be like God after being told they would surely die, but they exchanged the truth for a lie. Satan is still blinding people and getting us to believe lies. --- Now, please explain to me what happened to Jesus' body.zweston_{January 23, 2022
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zweston, I'm staying on the main issue. Are you OK with your belief that if someone doesn't believe what Jesus said about his role in salvation, they are going to have an eternity of torment in hell, irrespective of how good a life they lead? In fact, since I don't believe any of that, you think I will spend an eternity in hell. And you think that is reasonable, and you can believe in, and worship, a God who set it up that way? True?Viola Lee_{January 23, 2022
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VL @ 83... Jesus claimed to be God. The Messiah. He can't be "just a good teacher" as many will assert. If someone comes around and says to eat his flesh and drink his blood and that he is God, he is either a liar, lunatic, or Lord (C.S. Lewis tri-lemma) The belief that Jesus is the only way is what Jesus said himself. It isn't something Christians made up. there is no evidence of that. Paul talked with disciples to verify the Gospel (in the book of Galatians if you want to look). Why would Paul suffer all those beatings, etc. to take the gospel everywhere? Maybe because it was life and death. Maybe it was humanity's only hope? Again, your beef is with Jesus, not Christians. So, why do you factually reject Christianity? Where is Jesus' body?zweston_{January 23, 2022
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Viola Lee:
I don’t hate God. God (the Christian God to whom you refer) doesn’t exist, and I can’t imagine hating an imaginary being.
Cuz you say so? Pathetic.ET_{January 23, 2022
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zweston writes, "all that matters is that if what Jesus said was true or not." And I don't believe what he, or the Bible, says about salvation and heaven and hell, is true. But, again, I don't think you are accurately describing what I am saying, although I appreciate that you are trying. What I said was that the people who believe in this self-righteous idea that they are going to be saved and everyone else, no matter how devoutly they believe in their God, are going to hell. I object, and it bothers me, to see that kind of arrogance, lack of humility, and lack of compassion for the broad diversity of humankind all looking to live with the mysteries of life. The "arrogance, lack of humility, and lack of compassion" refers to the Christians' belief that they, and only they, have true religious beliefs, discounting the billions of people in the world who have different religious beliefs, seeing them as condemned to hell. That is an inhumane belief, and I don't see how anyone can support such a religion in this respect. I want to make it clear that the subject in this thread is the "condemned to hell" issue. I know Jesus is an inspirational model for how to live with humility and compassion, but so is Gandhi, and Buddha, and countless people from all religions. But if Christianity is truly one of humility and compassion, it would give up this "you got to believe or you're going to hell" business, and make room in its world for people of different religious beliefs who live the kind of life you think Jesus inspires you to live, even if their inspiration comes from a different ideology.Viola Lee_{January 23, 2022
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You implied that Christians are arrogant, self-righteous (or at least Jesus is since he came up with the "idea"), lack compassion, and lack humility. What am I missing? Can you not see that when people are telling you that you need Jesus they are trying to be compassionate and begging you to reconsider? If someone believes you are on the tracks and the train is coming through, would the loving thing to be to sugar coat it and reason with you until it made sense to you? Listen, some Christians (myself included at times) come off in ways that are not Christ-like....but that doesn't negate who Christ is and what he taught and how he lived. Do not give yourself that "out" from engaging with the facts. Your beef isn't with Christians really, it's with Jesus. It's what he said, it's what the disciples wrote down and so therefore, it's what we hold to. Jesus spent more time warning people about hell than talking about heaven. So, do you think we should be different? Was Jesus arrogant when he said he is the way to the father and no one can come to the father except by him? Do you think he was lacking humility when he surrendered his life to be killed by those who he created? It seems to me the dissenters on this board aren't really interested in truth at all. All that matters is if it is true. WJM just rejects Christianity independently of truth (even though he would seem to concede the resurrection is true). You find historical and orthodox Christian beliefs arrogant and narrow minded...but all that matters is that if what Jesus said was true or not. You must be born again. You must be given new eyes to see. You need to humble yourself and re-evaluate the words of Christ and see if what he says is true. the Bible is unlike any other book in all of history. The words of Christ ring true and are founded by historical evidence, including a chain of possession that we can track historically. For the dissenters on the board, you have been given so much light, evidence, reasoning, and discussion. Yet, your hearts remain hardened. Please reconsider! Grace and Peace to you!zweston_{January 23, 2022
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Hi Zweston. I didn't say I thought Christians thought they were "some elite morally superior people." I know that central to Christian ideology is that Christians know themselves to be sinners. I think if you read 77 again you'll see I was saying something quite different.Viola Lee_{January 23, 2022
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ViolaLee @ 77.... Christianity doesn't lead us to think we are some elite morally superior people... if anything it should humble us to the core. Ever been given a gift that was not asked for and more generous than you yourself would have given? It's an extremely humbling thing. I'm just a beggar that found food trying to show others where the food is. Biblical Christianity isn't about pride, it's about humbling yourself and serving others... even to death... Philippians 2 demonstrates the character of Christ... even in the very form God didn't consider himself superior and humbled himself, being obedient unto death, even death on a cross........ Most know John 3:16, but they may not have John 3:17 memorized... Jesus came to rescue those who were already condemned. He came not to condemn but to save the world. It isn't about a mental belief in following something.... I can believe a rock will help me break my fall out of a plane if I hold it.... Sin must be atoned for... either by us or by Jesus. That's why the Apostle Paul and numerous others have died trying to take the gospel to the world; it's life and death.zweston_{January 23, 2022
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Chuckyd, What happened to Jesus' body?zweston_{January 23, 2022
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Regarding the OP . . . on the other hand, some progressive thinkers, such as a former professor I once had, might make the point that tossing a baby in a dumpster is simply a misuse of potential transplants of its body parts for the benefit of valued members of society, and a “post-partum” abortion is the recognition that the baby is unwanted and would likely be abused. They would recognize that sacrificing this baby for the good of the earth and humanity reduces the environmental load of the earth’s biome. Also, a post-partum abortion might, in a progressive society, be mandatory if the baby, after genetic testing, was found to have any genetic defects. As a species, such actions would be absolutely necessary for the sake of genetic hygiene and the long-term evolutionary development of humanity. Right? Some comments . . . William J Murray @ 2,
They know it is evil to force someone into a situation that you know with certainty they will endure brutal victimization. Yet, they call the hypothetical God who does this very thing “good” and “loving.”
After numerous rebuttals to this repeated false assertion, one can see an example of a static mindset that’s become impervious to reason. Zweston @5,
Do you have all knowledge? Have you always existed? Did you create the universe from nothing? Did you create DNA? Do you exist outside of time? Are you able to judge the hearts of men? … if not, it might be time to humble yourself, accept the facts of the matter and spend your time trying to invite others to escape the coming reality instead of protesting it. I can’t wrap my head around a lot of things theologically, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and the Bible is true.
Beautifully stated! For anyone making judgments, they need to do so in humility, realizing they do not know all the facts and dynamics involved. This holds true for presumed “facts” in science as well as moral judgments, rationalizations, and stupid criticisms leveled against God. StephanB @6,
You are on record as doubting that there is any such thing as “evil,” “wrong,” or “unjust,” and yet you also claim that the Christian God is evil, wrong, and unjust.
Bingo! StephenB @29,
A good example would be the act of judging itself. Human’s may not judge the ultimate fate of other humans (or decide on which fate is deserved) because they simply don’t know all the facts and nuances of each human life. Many there are, for example, that have a hard time loving God as a Father because their fathers did not love them. God can take such things into account, humans cannot.
Very quotable! Seversky @9,
In my view, the overwhelming majority of parents would regard that as an horrific and criminal act and, in essence, that is the basis of all moralities – communities deciding what are individual rights and freedoms that should be protected for the benefit of all.
But communities have historically been misogynistic, racist, antisemitic, pedophilic, cannibalistic, etc. and remain so until a natural disaster, disease, revolution, or stronger community resorts to force to destroy or suppress those community-based morals. Thus, someone with this view living in a slave-holding society would consider slavery a “moral good” since “everyone is doing it" and is "economically beneficial.” Hoosfoos @11,
The powerful can psychologically manipulate majority opinion.
Exactly. This is what we’re seeing nowadays in social media, where certain viewpoints are actively promoted or censored for the purpose of creating a new moral consensus out of a minority ideology through force. BobRyan@13,
If everything is subjective, then nothing is good or evil.
Or as Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, “If there is no God, everything is permitted.” Similarly, Kirillov (a character in Dostoevsy’s book, The Possessed) said: “If God exists, then everything is His will, and I cannot do anything with my own outside of His will. If there is no God, then everything is my will and I must express my will. ” Charming isn’t it? Lieutenant Commander Data @14,
But “evil god” is the same like “square circle” , a contradiction because an evil god would give us an “evil moral law” and people will judge according to this “evil moral law” therefore their conclusions about god will be wrong .
Heh. Good one! C.S. Lewis noted that good and evil were asymmetric in that evil leaders don’t want evil subordinates, but rather subordinates who are efficient, trustworthy, hardworking, honest, and dependable. He contended that evil was a perversion of good.
Badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself: badness is only spoiled goodness. Evil is a parasite, not an original thing. - C.S. Lewis
Chuckdarwin @49,
I have to say that WJM’s comments at 38 and 39 are the finest examples of clarity I’ve seen in a long time critiquing Christian soteriology.
Yes, they are . . . and even so, they demonstrate an embarrassing lack of knowledge of the Bible. Their same objections about hell seem to emerge continually in many topics on this forum. In previous posts, I addressed the topic from a physics viewpoint of mathematics and space-time, and only Ram was brave enough to answer my series of questions. The others chickened out. In contrast, I don’t see them cursing Nature for its fangs and claws that result in ETERNAL DEATH for its victims. They don’t complain about the AMORAL behavior constantly displayed by animals in nature, whose lives are also typically “nasty, brutish, and short” to quote Hobbes. As a result, shouldn't we conclude that even Nature alone is completely unfair and evil? -QQuerius_{January 23, 2022
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To Stephen: I don't hate God. God (the Christian God to whom you refer) doesn't exist, and I can't imagine hating an imaginary being. Whatever feelings I have, which are also not hate, are directed at the people who believe in this God and believe in this self-righteous idea that they are going to be saved and everyone else, no matter how devoutly they believe in their God, are going to hell. I object, and it bothers me, to see that kind of arrogance, lack of humility, and lack of compassion for the broad diversity of humankind all looking to live with the mysteries of life.Viola Lee_{January 23, 2022
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The unreasonableness of the God haters is on full display here, and they don’t hate just any god. they hate the real God, the one who reveals himself in Scripture. It’s the same God who preannounced his own arrival a thousand years before the event through the Old Testament prophets; the same God who took on human flesh, performed countless miracles, and rose from the dead to prove his Divine personhood; the same God who suffered and died for them in order to save them from Hell. When someone claims to be God and proves it, any rational person would take that fact into account. and take him seriously. This person has informed us that Hell exists and that we can avoid it But if someone hates God, he will likely dismiss the warning, which of course, is what is happening here. Such a mindless response to a clear and present danger is not rational. Once Hell has been put on the table by a credible and responsible person, the only rational response is to heed that warning and take the necessary precautions. It is much more reasonable to fear Hell than to deny its existence. It is also much more reasonable to respond to the real God rather than make up one that you can control. But *why* do these blasphemers hate the real God? Because He created them. That’s right. They hate God for daring to fashion them in his image by endowing them with the God-like qualities of intelligence and free will. Their argument goes like this: God knew that some of his creatures would misuse these gifts and earn Hell in the process. Thus, they stupidly blame the Creator for the malicious acts of His creatures. As lawless partisans, they also hate God because they labor under the misconception that they can be their own god and should be permitted to be their own judge. In school, they probably thought that they should be able to grade their own papers. This apparent lack of sincerity is remarkable. WJM, for example, carried on for months, if not years, about the doubtfulness of objective morality. Lately, though, he has reversed course and finally confessed that some objective morals really do exist and, in many cases, are self evident. Why the big change? Is he playing chess? Has he sacrificed his Queen (the most valuable chess piece), in order to improve his position on the chess board? Has he, to be more precise, sacrificed his subjective morality so that he can use objective morality as a tool with which he can attack the Christian God. Will he revert back to his moral skepticism when the attacks end? Who knows? For WJM, Monday’s personalized subjective morality can morph into Tuesdays Natural Moral Law. As Forrest Gump might say, WJM is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.StephenB_{January 23, 2022
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WJM, You believe Jesus resurrected? No? How about the prophecies that predicted that very thing as well as a suffering servant, the "SON OF MAN" from Daniel 7, and all the other types and shadows of Jesus in the Old Testament. So, what would it take for you recognize the authority of Jesus. What else would he have to do in order to demonstrate He is God? And again, I'd point back to the root of your rejection of Christianity...simply hell. No observable facts, archaeology, cosmology, or historical proof holds you up from belief.... you just don't like the idea of someone being in charge and making you subject to them...or so it seems. In one breath you will say the resurrection happened, and in the next breath you call the God of the Bible hypothetical. And, you have said that basically there would be nothing stopping you from acknowledging God if everyone went to heaven... but it still wouldn't compel you to change your lifestyle. I really don't know what else to say. But I do genuinely appreciate the responses.zweston_{January 23, 2022
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LCD to Viola Lee
So you chose to (cunningly) “believe” the part that allow you to judge God and in the same time you just “don’t believe” the part that prove God loves you . To judge correctly is to analyze full Christian description of God (not cherry picking only those information about hell that helps your hateful side to hate) . I guess everybody knows why you let aside the information than doesn’t help you to hate.
Exactly right. The God haters are very selective about which facts should be allowed to form their opinions. For them, it is not a matter of following the evidence where it leads. It is all about searching for evidence that will harmonize with their uninformed prejudices.StephenB_{January 23, 2022
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KF said:
WJM, oh yes it does.
Only if you're trying to justify as good that which is clearly evil. If you're not trying to do that, it's really simple. It's evil. You're doing the same thing others do when they try to justify what is clearly evil as not evil: mental gymnastics that serve to blind you from an obvious, self-evident truth.William J Murray_{January 23, 2022
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Zweston said:
Do you think you would be forgiven much? I think that is probably the main issue here as it seems you don’t see it that way. You appear to think you just have some rough edges that need a little smoothing.
Well, from the Christian perspective, I probably have a lot more sin than I thought - I mean, I don't consult God in anything, ever, other than in a kind of whimsical fashion, which is probably also a sin.
Jesus said… he who is forgiven much, loves much.
Maybe I don't know what this means. My love is not measured by how much I am forgiven, nor does it determine how much I will forgive. There is no such correlation of those things in me.
When my wife forgives me when I’m an idiot or whatever it may be… I cannot help but love her more…because I know I don’t deserve it/her! It melts my heart and motivates me to do and be better.
What is your definition of forgiveness? I found this:
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness. ... Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses.
My wife and I have apologized to each other for doing things that have hurt each other's feelings, but we've never framed it as asking for, or giving, forgiveness. I just consider being resentful or angry or harboring a desire for vengeance unenjoyable and unproductive. I've arranged my psychology around the perspective that other people are not responsible for my feelings; only I am. If we hurt each other's feelings, we just talk about how we can prevent that from happening in the future.
That’s what God offers you. To dismiss something out of hand because you don’t like it or think it’s unreasonable means you think you know better than God.
The way you word these things is just so bizarre to me. You word things as if I know the hypothetical God you talk about is true. I don't think I "know better than God." I don't know any God exists at all other than "ground of being," which I know because that is an inescapable logical necessity. How could I possibly think I "know better than God" when I have absolutely no idea any such God as you are describing even exists? I literally do not know. It's possible. But a lot of things are possible.
I think it’s interesting that you don’t reject the resurrection, which is pretty interesting. What else does Jesus have to do for him to verify his authority? He fulfilled tons of prophecies specifically and the world really does seem to align with his description of our current reality.
I don't see how any of that lends any weight to the claim that Jesus is God because I have zero knowledge of what would constitute evidence of Godhood beyond "ground of being," and that is not something you can go out and collect evidence for other than "stuff exists."
In regards to corporal punishment… I’m sparing my kids from a final consequence (running out in the road) when I spank their bottoms. Could this current conversation (or the undoubtedly 100’s of them you’ve had) be the same thing?
You don't want to start comparing your hypothetical God with a human parent. That's not going to end well for you. No good parent would allow a total stranger, much less their own child, to toss themselves into eternal torment.
I know it seems like God is a megalomaniacal control freak (so some say anyways) but if he is truly the only God above any other creation of all time and he made us specifically to worship and glorify himself, we are literally rebelling against our calling and what is best for us.
I don't know how you rebel against that which you don't even believe exists.
... he made us specifically to worship and glorify himself,...
There seems to be a pretty big flaw in the design, then.William J Murray_{January 23, 2022
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Zweston @68 I don't believe that anyone has ever risen from the dead. In the single most important verse of the Bible, Paul puts it succinctly:
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 1 Corinthians 15:14
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