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Materialists Know What They Say is False. They Say it Anyway

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Otherwise, they would have to give up their materialism.

Recently I posted about a woman who was charged with attempted murder when she put a newborn baby in a garbage bag and tossed him in a dumpster to die. Here is an exchange I had with Seversky regarding that post:

Barry:

Is it objectively evil to put a baby in a garbage bag and throw him in a dumpster or is it just your subjective preference not to do so?

Seversky:

the overwhelming majority regard dumping newborns in dumpsters as being evil

Barry:

Suppose the overwhelming majority regarded dumping newborns in dumpsters as good. Would it then be good?

Seversky:

Presumably, it would be good in the minds of the majority who approved of it. It would not be a good thing from my perspective.

There you have it. Sev’s position is this: They would prefer tossing babies in dumpsters and I would not. There is no basis on which to determine which preference is superior. Therefore, the preferences are objectively equal.

As I have said before, no sane person actually lives their life as if materialism is true. But Sev’s religious commitments compel him to pretend he believes it is true. Which leads him to say that he holds an outrageous position that we can be certain he does not truly hold. Sad that.

Comments
Sev.
Without an objective and independent moral standard against which to measure it the only objective evidence is the majority in favor of throwing babies in dumpsters.
Make up your mind. First you say there is no objective standard against which to measure the two preferences. Then you say that the fact that one preference has more adherents is an objective measure. I know you want to have it both ways Sev. Sorry, you can't.Barry Arrington
January 21, 2022
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There you have it. Sev’s position is this: They would prefer tossing babies in dumpsters and I would not. There is no basis on which to determine which preference is superior. Therefore, the preferences are objectively equal.
Not objectively equal as you are presuming that there is an overwhelming majority in favor of throwing babies in dumpsters. Without an objective and independent moral standard against which to measure it the only objective evidence is the majority in favor of throwing babies in dumpsters. The real question is whether that would ever happen. In my view, the overwhelming majority of parents would regard that as an horrific and criminal act and, in essence, that is the basis of all moralities - communities deciding what are individual rights and freedoms that should be protected for the benefit of all.
Suppose the overwhelming majority regarded dumping newborns in dumpsters as good. Would it then be good?
We can all play the suppose game. Suppose one of the tenets of a faith was that all the faithful were required to prove the strength of their commitment by demonstrating their willingness to sacrifice their child. Would that be a good thing?Seversky
January 21, 2022
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@JVL “ I’ll leave it up to you to decide how that could happen and why.” Too busy to decide your ‘how’s’ and ‘why’s’Belfast
January 21, 2022
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@WJM A Tu Quoque argument is no better coming from you than it is from Seversky.Belfast
January 21, 2022
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WJM:
They know it is evil to force someone into a situation that you know with certainty they will endure brutal victimization. Yet, they call the hypothetical God who does this very thing “good” and “loving.”
You are on record as doubting that there is any such thing as “evil,” “wrong,” or “unjust,” and yet you also claim that the Christian God is evil, wrong, and unjust. Will the real WJM please stand up?StephenB
January 21, 2022
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WJM, for sake of argument, let's just grant you your characterization of God. Let's test your claim that the God of the Bible is evil... by what standard is he evil? What measure of Good to you measure it off of? Is it objective or subjective? If it is subjective, then is it universally true? Says who? We get that you don't like hell... in my limited knowledge and understanding, I'm not a fan of it either and want to avoid it at all costs, but at the same time, I do want justice to be served in my life and in our world. If someone murders my child, they deserve death... as they destroyed life and it cannot be restored. I cannot escape the scriptural reality that hell is real... Jesus spent a lot of time talking about it, and he was the best human of all time. Near death experiences have plenty of examples of negative hell-like descriptions, so we even have scientific evidence of its reality. You have been shown the way to eternal life, and you refuse to take it because you protest your creator having a will to do as he pleases? It's like an ant complaining about the actions of a human being, except vastly beyond that in true disparity. Do you have all knowledge? Have you always existed? Did you create the universe from nothing? Did you create DNA? Do you exist outside of time? Are you able to judge the hearts of men? ... if not, it might be time to humble yourself, accept the facts of the matter and spend your time trying to invite others to escape the coming reality instead of protesting it. I can't wrap my head around a lot of things theologically, but that doesn't negate the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and the Bible is true. Are you a good person? And by what standard would you judge that by? the Bible gave us 10 commandments to follow, lets see how you would do in God's (hypothetical) courtroom: 1. Have you ever told a lie? or rather, how many lies have you told? (since we both know you have lied) Being made in the image of God and lying, you are portraying God as a liar and defaming his name. Someone who tells lies is a liar. You (like me) are a liar. 2. Have you ever stolen anything... downloaded music, something from a friend or sibling... or maybe something criminal level... chances are you have. You are showing discontentment, covetousness, idolatry, and a lack of trust in God's provision... defaming his name. 3. Have you ever taken the Lord's name in vain? Would you do that with your parents' names? No? Why not? Because you love them and want to honor them?... and if have taken their names and used them as profanity, you just dishonored your parents... that's also one of the 10. If you have taken the Lord's name in vain, you are literally dishonoring the greatest name there is. To do it to anyone else isn't as offensive. You curse your own creator. 4. Jesus said if you have looked with lust you have committed adultery in your heart... have you done that? I'm guessing like all of us you have. Adultery is wrong because it gives a false view of God because God doesn't commit adultery. He stays true and loyal to his people and to his covenants. 5. Have you ever hated someone... Jesus said if you hate someone you have committed murder in your heart..... So, just guessing if you are honest (but you are a liar by definition)... that you are lying, thieving, blasphemous murdering adulterer at heart... So, by God's law, would you be innocent or guilty? .... Guilty. Not a good good person by God's standards. So, being guilty, according to the Bible, would you deserve heaven or hell? The answer is hell, like every one of us. The good news (gospel) of Jesus is that... when Jesus died on the cross he paid the price for your sins. the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. You and I broke God's law, and Jesus paid the fine... God was able to punish sin and also be merciful at the same time. Then Jesus rose again after prophesying he would, confirming the truth about his finished work on the cross. In order to receive the forgiveness offered by Jesus, you must repent (change your mind, turn around) from your way of living and trust Jesus' sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and follow Jesus. You can't just say "I'm sorry"... that doesn't acquit you from your crimes... someone must pay. It's either Jesus or you. When you surrender your life to Jesus, he will change your heart, give you peace, joy, purpose, and eternal life. This is great news. The best of news. And the way Jesus called us to live is the best possible way to live. Love each other sacrificially, give generously to each other, forgive each other, take care of the poor and helpless... the world would be a wonderful place if everyone followed Jesus.zweston
January 21, 2022
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Since I have been once again blocked from commenting on a thread (https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/is-darwinism-an-empty-theory/) have pursued the matter a bit further. On the page I get when I am blocked I clicked a link near the bottom which was called "Documentation". Which took me to a page explaining the different kinds of blocks WordFence can throw up. Here's the quote from the paragraph discussing the particular block I see:
Your access to this site has been limited If you see this message it means that your IP address has been blocked by the Wordfence firewall via an option configured by the site owner. On the block page, you will see a “Reason” describing why you were blocked. If you are an administrator on the site you can use this reason to adjust your Wordfence settings. This may be due to the country blocking or rate limiting features. If you are not an administrator on the site then contact the site owner for assistance.
However, the blocked message I get is also a "403 Forbidden" message and here's what that means:
403 Forbidden. A potentially unsafe operation has been detected in your request to this site. If you see this message it means Wordfence has blocked you for violating a firewall rule. If you are an administrator on the site, check the “Tools” > “Live Traffic” page feed and locate the request that was blocked. If you are sure that the request is safe and should not be blocked, you can add the blocked request to the allowlist. If you are not an administrator on the site then contact the site owner for assistance. 403 Forbidden. WHAT? Why am I seeing this? If you see this message it means that your IP address is on the Wordfence “Real-Time IP Blocklist”. This blocklist contains the top number of IP addresses that are currently engaged in attacks on WordPress sites. The page provides you with a form you can use to make a report if you think you should not have been blocked. Even if you are not doing anything bad, other people using the same IP address may be. In the vast majority of cases, we will therefore not remove your IP address from the blocklist. We recommend that you reach out to your Internet Service Provider or VPN provider so that they can track down the source of the malicious traffic coming from the IP address that you are using.
So, it seems clear someone is choosing to restrict access but only after I have already posted to a thread. I have replied multiple times to the above mentioned thread only to have my responses blocked just now. I'll leave it up to you to decide how that could happen and why.JVL
January 21, 2022
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My comment: https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/lfp-48m-the-legitimate-authority-of-knowable-moral-truth-in-service-to-justice-thriving-and-prudence/kairosfocus
January 21, 2022
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On the flip side of this, many theists know what they say is false, but they say it anyway. They know it is evil to force someone into a situation that you know with certainty they will endure brutal victimization. Yet, they call the hypothetical God who does this very thing "good" and "loving." They know eternal torture with no hope of escape can only be the creation of an evil being, yet they attempt to rationalize it as being "good."William J Murray
January 21, 2022
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Yes, and there is no indication Sev could ever improve his thinking on this. Andrewasauber
January 21, 2022
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