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Materialists Know What They Say is False. They Say it Anyway

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Otherwise, they would have to give up their materialism.

Recently I posted about a woman who was charged with attempted murder when she put a newborn baby in a garbage bag and tossed him in a dumpster to die. Here is an exchange I had with Seversky regarding that post:

Barry:

Is it objectively evil to put a baby in a garbage bag and throw him in a dumpster or is it just your subjective preference not to do so?

Seversky:

the overwhelming majority regard dumping newborns in dumpsters as being evil

Barry:

Suppose the overwhelming majority regarded dumping newborns in dumpsters as good. Would it then be good?

Seversky:

Presumably, it would be good in the minds of the majority who approved of it. It would not be a good thing from my perspective.

There you have it. Sev’s position is this: They would prefer tossing babies in dumpsters and I would not. There is no basis on which to determine which preference is superior. Therefore, the preferences are objectively equal.

As I have said before, no sane person actually lives their life as if materialism is true. But Sev’s religious commitments compel him to pretend he believes it is true. Which leads him to say that he holds an outrageous position that we can be certain he does not truly hold. Sad that.

Comments
Viola Lee, Everyone is held responsible for the light that they have and God's judgement is completely fair. If you demand justice, you will receive justice, and if you sincerely ask for mercy, you will receive mercy. One must do this during one's life here on earth, otherwise your decision would be made under duress. No one can accurately predict how some other person will be judged. I would expect that there will be some surprises. Personally, I do think I'll see Lao Tsu in God's kingdom. But getting back to the subject of the OP, what do you think of this . . .
In contrast, I don’t see them cursing Nature for its fangs and claws that result in ETERNAL DEATH for its victims. They don’t complain about the AMORAL behavior constantly displayed by animals in nature, whose lives are also typically “nasty, brutish, and short” to quote Hobbes. As a result, shouldn’t we conclude that even Nature alone is completely unfair and evil?
-QQuerius
January 25, 2022
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I do not hate Christian religion, but it looks like you won't take my word for it. So what happens to the Buddhists when they die if they don't go to heaven and they don't go to hell?Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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Viola Lee
What about all the billions of people who were born into a culture of another religion, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and many minor non-western religions, and who have grown up as devout members of those religions. Have they made “evil choices” to not become Christians?
Of course not. All those who are, indeed, ignorant of Christ's saving actions will not be held accountable for their lack of knowledge, unless their ignorance is willful. They are responsible only for following the moral truths that they know about. No one enters Hell except through voluntary fault. I am beginning to understand why you hate the Christian religion so much. You seem to know almost nothing about it.StephenB
January 25, 2022
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Stephen writes, "All facts, *including facts about yourself*, transcend your conscious awareness." Where do they reside? If I am aware that I have a certain belief, or other piece of knowledge about myself, that I perceive internally and that no one else can experience, how does this "fact" exist outside of myself in some transcendent way?Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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SB If the subject and the object were not connected, or if they were not distinct, no one could ever know anything. Origenes:
Really?
Yes, really.
“I exist” & “I am self-aware” are claims where subject and object are not distinct things. It stems from the “I” perceiving itself. Subjective for sure, and yet it constitutes fundamental knowledge.
All facts are objective. All experiences are subjective. The claim that you exist and the means by which you discover that you exist (your judgement and mental processes) are all subjective; but the truth value in that claim (the incontestable *fact* you exist) is objective, All facts, *including facts about yourself*, transcend your conscious awareness. Put another way, your existence does not, as you seem to believe, depend on your self awareness. Even if you were not aware of your existence, you would still exist. Your awareness of your existence is distinct from, but connected to, the fact of your existence. Through your subjective processes, you come to know an objective fact. The epistemology of grasping a truth is very simple: Subject = the knower; Object = the thing known. Try to grasp the meaning if that DISTINCTION.StephenB
January 25, 2022
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VL @139, 182
When we contemplate and experience our inner lives, the “object” of our knowledge is an inner state accessible only to ourselves. We are both subject and object in respective to our internal lives.
I agree fully. Very well stated. I also agree with this:
But there is no evidence that these moral truths really do exist in any form outside of human beings.
The fact that we (almost) unanimously converge on the judgment that it is evil to put a baby in a garbage bag and throw him in a dumpster can be readily explained by the fact that no one likes to be put in a garbage bag and be thrown in a dumpster, and that socially aware people apply the golden rule. So, indeed, it doesn’t necessarily point to an ‘objective’ moral command originating from a realm outside of humanity.Origenes
January 25, 2022
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Stephen writes, "the creature who insists on being separated from Him. Under the circumstances, it is the creature that is making the evil choices, not God." What about all the billions of people who were born into a culture of another religion, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and many minor non-western religions, and who have grown up as devout members of those religions. Have they made "evil choices" to not become Christians?Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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Origenes, I said something similar at 139: They [our beliefs, including moral ones] are knowledge of ourself. When we contemplate and experience our inner lives, the “object” of our knowledge is an inner state accessible only to ourselves. We are both subject and object in respective to our internal lives."Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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SB @136: I know that I am wasting my time on this one, but here we go anyway. You are the origin of the awareness of your existence, which is subjective, but you are not the origin of the fact of your existence. which is objective. The origin of your existence (or the fact of your existence) is the one who brought you into being, namely the Creator. Neither you nor your awareness played any role whatsoever in that event.
If by ‘objective’ is meant ‘originating from the creator’, then what is not-objective? If “I exist” or “I am self-aware” are not ‘subjective’ claims because the creator is the origin of my existence and self-awareness, then what is ‘subjective’?
Are you going to hijack yet another thread with this nonsense?
Are you referring to the ‘nonsense’ that “I am self-aware” is a claim made by a subject about himself (a subject) about a fundamantally private subjective experience?
SB @138: If the subject and the object were not connected, or if they were not distinct, no one could ever know anything.
Really? “I exist” & “I am self-aware” are claims where subject and object are not distinct things. It stems from the “I” perceiving itself. Subjective for sure, and yet it constitutes fundamental knowledge. How many times do I have to point this out?Origenes
January 25, 2022
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Ram:
The bottom line, most of the Christians around here believe in a monstrous god who monstrously tortures people forever when it’s not necessary for said god’s bliss or existence. In fact, creation itself is not necessary for said god’s bliss or existence.
The eternity and the intensity of the suffering in Hell are the products of a soul being radically separated from God. It is a simple cause and effect relationship. God does not “inflict torture” on the damned soul; the damned soul simply experiences the pain of separation. In effect, you are demanding that God pry the suffering away from the separation. This is not only physically impossible; it is logically impossible. To be separated from what is good for you is to experience pain for as long as that separation is in effect. This is true even in the present life. If you are separated from air, food, or water, you will suffer because suffering is inherent in the separation of the body from what is good for it. The difference, though, is this: When you divorce yourself from God in this life, you don’t experience the full measure of suffering that separation causes because you continue to receive many of the same blessings as everyone else. You still enjoy the warmth of the sun and the refreshment of the falling rain. It is only when you are totally separated from God and His blessings that you suffer the pains of the damned. So the real question is about who is responsible for the suffering of the damned souls. I say it is not the God who strives to establish and maintain an intimate relationship with his creatures (The Christian God) but rather the creature who insists on being separated from Him. Under the circumstances, it is the creature that is making the evil choices, not God. Annihilation is not a reasonable alternative because it is not necessarily the most merciful option. There are many who would prefer the suffering of conscious freedom in order to use it as opportunity to blaspheme God in their timeless state of existence. There are also many who would prefer non existence because they want to end the suffering at any cost. Still, the question persists: Why should God grant the wishes of those who prefer non-existence at the expense of those who want conscious freedom?StephenB
January 25, 2022
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Ram Where in the Hebrew bible does it assert that the Davidic Messiah would be a sin bearer for humanity? I’ll give you a hint… It doesn’t exist. –Ram the Jew
Oops! You get it wrong . Again. For the record ,not for Ram: The Forbidden Chapter: Isaiah 53 in the Hebrew Bible
You’re obviously not a Jew nor a Jewish scholar.
Well...to be Jewish scholar doesn't guarantee the truth because some "Jewish scholars" killed Jesus (among them a high-priest , priests, judges, etc...)
believe in a monstrous god who monstrously tortures people forever
:oops: Oops.. again you forgot to take your pills.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 25, 2022
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Ram @171,
Where in the Hebrew bible does it assert that the Davidic Messiah would be a sin bearer for humanity?
I could tell you, but your head would explode. It has to do with why ancient Jewish scholars believed in two messiahs. Let's leave it at that. And yes, I study the Tanakh: Masoretic, Septuagint, occasionally the Syriac Peshitta, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
If this thread is going to turn into a Bible study, I’m all in when it comes to the Hebrew Bible. Any takers?
No, it's not. This is the wrong forum. So why not go back to the OP or how about answering some of the questions raised? For example,
In contrast, I don’t see them cursing Nature for its fangs and claws that result in ETERNAL DEATH for its victims. They don’t complain about the AMORAL behavior constantly displayed by animals in nature, whose lives are also typically “nasty, brutish, and short” to quote Hobbes. As a result, shouldn’t we conclude that even Nature alone is completely unfair and evil?
-QQuerius
January 25, 2022
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Just one example: KF continually mentions "culminating in the resurrection witnessed by 500." But that is not what we have: we have one story about 500 witness, written quite a few years later. What we do not have is 500 independent, contemporary personal witness accounts. These are different. The theme of the post is believing things one knows are not true, and WJM has pointed out the contortions Christian apologists go through to somehow justify the fact billions of people are condemned to hell because they don't believe Christianity is not evil. The two things I wrote above about "500 witnesses" are not anywhere equivalent. Can you agree that is a true statement, KF? Dylan Verse, from "Trouble in Mind":
The truth is far from you, so you know you got to lie Then you're all the time defending what you can never justify
Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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WJM, there is I believe a seven link limit for comments. Moderation suggests you hit that barrier. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2022
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VL, loaded language a case doth not make. A strawman, yes; especially when we see continued evasion of the substance raised in 96 above; not to mention, evasion of the substantial and vital point in the OP -- the undeniability of certain key moral truths [thus exposure of the key error of relativism], evaded through sustained distractor. A distractor that actually shows the force of the undeniability. An inadvertent own goal exposure of underlying basic hostility, yes. So, a classic of toxic, off topic distraction in the face of a key breakdown of the relativist thesis, yes, that also shows how evasions demonstrate the underlying undeniable moral truth in the OP, yes. KF PS: The genuinely perplexed may wish to start here, and here, for starters, at fora where the issues being used to distract and polarise here are addressed in more relevant fora. I note, again, a key point in Rom 2 that has been sidestepped above: " 6 He [God] will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." The issue is, the orientation of your heart and life, i/l/o truth you know or should acknowledge. Do you show penitent persistence (however stumbling) toward such accessible truth, or are you found side stepping, evading, fleeing, distracting from or attacking/undermining it? The latter shows the erection of a lockout on the doors of one's soul, with the consequences laid out in Ch 1, culpable failure of knowable duty, leading to ingratitude for grace and benefits extended [rain on the just AND the unjust], thence a rising breakdown of moral government, onward refusal to entertain God in what is termed knowledge, thence personal and social disintegration and ruin. Where, there evidently is a point of no return, where one has gone too far to be stirred to turn back from the road of folly and ruin, indeed the psychology of cognitive dissonance and projection would lead to blaming others for one's self-inflicted plight, including God. Ultimate failure, then, through sustained wilful abuse of the gift of rational responsible freedom that enables us to apprehend, live by and walk towards the truth in love. RAM, that is precisely the problem with a wrong forum, and we both know that there are excellent reasons behind the Christian view of Is 52:13 - 53:12. Which, is also a precisely fulfilled prophecy culminating in the resurrection witnessed by 500; the pivot of warrant for the Christian faith. But such is an opening to a grand distraction from due focus when there are proper fora for such discussions. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2022
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The bottom line, most of the Christians around here believe in a monstrous god who monstrously tortures people forever when it's not necessary for said god's bliss or existence. In fact, creation itself is not necessary for said god's bliss or existence. Of course, such a god does not exist. The personal take-away from all of this is that I would not want to live next door to such a person who believes in such a monstrous god. No thanks. --Ram the Jewram
January 25, 2022
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The focus is on knowing something is evil, and on people sayings they know are false. Post #2:
On the flip side of this, many theists know what they say is false, but they say it anyway. They know it is evil to force someone into a situation that you know with certainty they will endure brutal victimization. Yet, they call the hypothetical God who does this very thing “good” and “loving.” They know eternal torture with no hope of escape can only be the creation of an evil being, yet they attempt to rationalize it as being “good.”
Not a full-fledged Bible study, but a focus on a "good" god doing an evil thing.Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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Zweston: Jewish hell…. Daniel 12:2 would be an answer. Thank for the stupid reply that indicates you know nothing. You're obviously not a Jew nor a Jewish scholar. Nothing in that text implies eternal torture, which is the topic of my involvement here. Keep up. --Ram the Jewram
January 25, 2022
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Now, for all the Christian religionists out there, I've got a question: Where in the Hebrew bible does it assert that the Davidic Messiah would be a sin bearer for humanity? I'll give you a hint... It doesn't exist. --Ram the Jew P.S. If this thread is going to turn into a Bible study, I'm all in when it comes to the Hebrew Bible. Any takers?ram
January 25, 2022
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Religion makes weird people say weird things --Ramram
January 25, 2022
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I'm glad to know about this.Viola Lee
January 25, 2022
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“I rejected Christianity because of the eternal hell thing.“ WJM, As a SDA christian, I want people to accept Christ and biblical teachings (not to reject them). Your comment reminded me again of the strong words of Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventist writer) from her book “The Great Controversy “ (with all respect to those who think differently, seventh day adventists don't believe eternal hell is a christian doctrine because the idea is not rooted in Scripture, on contrary, it's incompatible with the Bible teachings. Btw, I'd like you to focus on her last sentence from this quote): How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. (... She then gives some examples of bad preaching on the issue) Where, in the pages of God’s word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” Ezekiel 33:11 What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God’s hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God’s hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God’s glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages. It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. http://www.centrowhite.org.br/files/ebooks/egw-english/books/The%20Great%20Controversy.pdf (Chapter 33) ............... I highly recommend you to read all her work (so many books on christian's faith from a biblical perspective).ycrad
January 25, 2022
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"Your comment is awaiting moderation?" First time I've ever seen that. Apparently, the comment I just now submitted is awaiting moderation. Is that an automated feature if I use a lot of cut-and-paste in a comment, or make several comments in a short period of time? Or because there was a lot of links?William J Murray
January 25, 2022
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I mean, let's face it. When it comes to afterlife dispensation, there is an ENORMOUS amount of evidence that the Christian-binary system of "heaven vs hell" is not the case: ADC (After Death Communication) in the form of signs, mental-auditory, physical auditory, semi-physical and fully physical manifestation contact, scents and touch, both waking an in dreams. Research data and website about ADCs. Book that examines this evidence: Hello From Heaven. https://www.adcrf.org/houck_research.htm https://www.amazon.com/Hello-Heaven-Research-After-Death-Communication-Confirms/dp/0553576348/ Mediums - tested, highly-observed, credible physical, evidential, and direct-voice communication, including decades of rigorous, scientific experimentation and study by the University of Virginia Dept. of Perceptual Studies and others. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtiKd3o1PKzKNnBCPvJWcg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17234565/ ITC (Instrumental Transcommunication) using various technological means to communicate, including radio, TV, and various electronic devices, usually recorded, often under rigorous conditions, including the current successful development "soul phone" technology : "The SoulPhone™ refers to integrative technologies for communicating with postmaterial (so-called “deceased”) persons. Devices are being developed by Gary E. Schwartz PhD and his team at the University of Arizona’s Laboratory for Advances in Consciousness & Health." https://www.thesoulphonefoundation.org/soulphone-overview/ Astral Projection and OOBEs (Out Of Body Experience) Countless, credible, first-person accounts of visiting the dead while fully conscious, in a "different world" that is fully physical and real. Michael Raduga developed an entirely secular training course that has a high success rate. However, allow me to let the US government to validate all of this in its own words. https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001700210016-5.pdf NDEs (Near Death Experiences) - including cases where the brain has been drained of blood and the brainwaves are entirely flat for extended periods of time. Here is a good paper that examines the evidence and explains why scientists refuse to even consider the afterlife theory to explain the evidence, and ignore evidence that contradicts their anti-afterlife predisposition. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399124/ https://nderf.org/ Reincarnation Research that indicates that children not only often remember past lives, but often have physical markers on their bodies from past lives. Sample of evidence: https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI35.pdf Hypnotic Regression to life between lives. Quantum Physics - 100 years of quantum physics research and experimentation has provided the scientific foundation for how and why our conscious experiences continue after physical death: our experience of physical reality occurs entirely in what we call "mind" or "consciousness." There is no independent world of matter and energy. Consciousness causes our experience of a physical world, which includes our physical bodies; thus our consciousness is not dependent on our physical body. It cannot be. There are currently at least two groups of scientists who are working on mental reality theories of our existence: Quantum Gravity Research - https://quantumgravityresearch.org/portfolio/what-is-reality-movie/ The Essentia Foundation - https://www.essentiafoundation.org/ Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace (1823-1913) – Co-originator with Charles Darwin of the natural selection theory of evolution: " My position is that the phenomena of communicating with those who crossed over - in their entirety do not require further confirmation. They are proved quite as well as facts are proved in other sciences." Sir William Barrett, (1844-1925) – Professor of physics at the Royal College of Science in Dublin for 37 years, “I’m absolutely convinced of the fact that those who once lived on earth can and do communicate with us. It is hardly possible to convey to the inexperienced an adequate idea of the strength and cumulative force of the evidence (for the afterlife).” Sir William Crookes (1832-1919) – A physicist and chemist, the most decorated scientist in his time. He discovered the element thallium and was a pioneer in radioactivity. " “It is quite true that a connection has been set up between this world and the next.” Sir Oliver Lodge (1851-1940) – Professor of physics at University College in Liverpool, England and later principal at the University of Birmingham, Lodge achieved world fame for his pioneering work in electricity, including the radio and spark plug. " I tell you with all my strength of the conviction which I can muster that we do persist, that people still continue to take an interest in what is going on, that they know far more about things on this earth than we do, and are able from time to time to communicate with us…I do not say it is easy, but it is possible, and I have conversed with my friends just as I can converse with anyone in this audience now."William J Murray
January 25, 2022
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KF said:
WJM, you may be well advised to reconsider new age phenomena such as astral travel or consulting the dead or the like, etc.
Astral projection, astral travel, and communicating with the dead are not "new age phenomena," KF. It's been going on throughout most of recorded history. I'm quite familiar with the potential perils and how to avoid/resolve them.
Note, he would shortly back up what he said by rising from the dead with 500 eyewitnesses.
I have no reason to doubt it occurred. So?William J Murray
January 25, 2022
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WJM, you may be well advised to reconsider new age phenomena such as astral travel or consulting the dead or the like, etc. Not every spiritual entity or experience is truthful or manifests "the light of day." I add this, from Jesus of Nazareth's interview with Pilate:
33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” 37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world— to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”
Note, he would shortly back up what he said by rising from the dead with 500 eyewitnesses. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2022
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As far as my being unwilling to change my personal beliefs, IMO I'm just willing to admit what we all know is true: no amount of evidence or argument is going to sway anyone here from any personal beliefs they hold dear.William J Murray
January 25, 2022
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KF said:
Second, you have evaded the nature of the soul and of death, thus inherent immortality and non material nature so that an actual physical combustion is plainly only a metaphorical comparison for largely self inflicted torments we already see in ourselves when we yield ourselves to evils
If the "self-inflicted torment" I'm experiencing here and now because of my "yielding to evil" is going to be ramped up in the afterlife in what Christians call "hell," then I guess hell is the non-Christian heaven and I'm all in. In any event, like countless other people, I've visited the afterlife several times and communicate with the dead regularly. I know for a fact it's not organized the way KF, SB, LCD and their ilk claim.William J Murray
January 25, 2022
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the unending experience of torture from the victims point of view
:lol: "Criminals are the victims." and "God is evil." 2 self-refuted concepts. At least Ram is consistent with his own self-refutation. Black is white , evil is good ,good is evil, retard is intelligent, etc.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 25, 2022
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VL, the access to salvation through faith implies repentance ie acknowledgement of radical guilt and reaching out for God's help. Such also points to moral transformation through lifelong cooperation with God in growth to the good, involving painful struggle with weaknesses and sins. It is therefore reflective of humility not the arrogance you suggested. Further to which you have side stepped the specific correctives in 96 above which explicitly shows from foundational sources that responsiveness to the light one has or has access to is the key gateway, it is fleeing light for favourite dark corners that leads to ruin. That sidestepping and unresponsiveness are indicators, arguably showing undue contempt to those you are plainly at minimum irritated with (those who profess salvation through repentant response to God in the face of a once crucified, risen Saviour with 500 eyewitnesses and fulfillment of specific prophecies that were hundreds of years in advance); undermining your loaded talking points. I suggest and plead for reconsideration. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2022
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