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Mathematician wonders about the respectful reception new multiverse book is getting

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Columbia mathematician Peter Woit offers some interesting comments on Max Tegmark’s The Mathematical Universe. We’d noted it last weekend, because the New Scientist review comprised one of the few instances of critical thinking on multiverse theory we’ve encountered in popular science media. Anyway, here’s Woit:

Tegmark’s career is a rather unusual story, mixing reputable science with an increasingly strong taste for grandiose nonsense. In this book he indulges his inner crank, describing in detail an utterly empty vision of the “ultimate nature of reality.” What’s perhaps most remarkable about the book is the respectful reception it seems to be getting, see reviews here, here, here and here. The Financial Times review credits Tegmark as the “academic celebrity” behind the turn of physics to the multiverse:

As recently as the 1990s, most scientists regarded the idea of multiple universes as wild speculation too far out on the fringe to be worth serious discussion. Indeed, in 1998, Max Tegmark, then an up-and-coming young cosmologist at Princeton, received an email from a senior colleague warning him off multiverse research: “Your crackpot papers are not helping you,” it said.

Needless to say, Tegmark persisted in exploring the multiverse as a window on “the ultimate nature of reality”, while making sure also to work on subjects in mainstream cosmology as camouflage for his real enthusiasm. Today multiple universes are scientifically respectable, thanks to the work of Tegmark as much as anyone. Now a physics professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, he presents his multiverse work to the public in Our Mathematical Universe.

File:Multiverse - level II.svg It’s part of the “mainstreaming” of the multiverse—quite apart from any evidence in support—that I wrote about here:

Hailed as the “world’s smartest man,” with cameos to his credit on The Simpsons and Star Trek, Stephen Hawking has blessed the multiverse for popular culture. Denouncing philosophy (and religion) as “outdated and irrelevant”, he announced that science dispenses with a designer behind nature because the law of gravity explains how the universe “can and will create itself from nothing.”

Those who want to be in the know, whether or not there is anything to know, will not know enough not to ask about evidence.

Especially when they learn things like this (Woit’s post is must reading):

1. The Templeton Foundation gave Tegmark and Anthony Aguirre nearly $9 million for a “Foundational Questions Institute” (FQXi)

2. Tegmark has little interest in mathematics, it turns out, and

There are no mathematicians among those thanked in the acknowledgements, and while “mathematical structures” are invoked in the book as the basis of everything, there’s little to no discussion of the mathematical structures that modern mathematicians find interesting (although the idea of “symmetries” gets a mention).

3. The book closes with a plea for scientists to “get organized to fight things like ‘fringe religious groups concerned that questioning their pseudo-scientific claims would erode their power’.” This, let’s understand, is from a well-funded multiverse advocate whose discipline rests on no evidence at all.

Woit says he doesn’t understand the attraction of the multiverse. If he means “scientific” attraction, I don’t either. If he had meant “political” attraction, the answer is obvious. Stay tuned.

See also: The Science Fictions series at your fingertips and

Popular science writer “sort of” gets it about the multiverse scam

Hawking [now] says there are no black holes?

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
PS: A computer does not solve a calculus problem, the programmer does. And if you mean evaluating a numerical solution to say volume of a solid of revolution between defined points, that is a numerical approximation. If you program the machine to analytically integrate, it gives an analytic solution worked out elsewhere. Try to get it to solve for an analytic expression for integral of e^(-x^2). It will predictably fail for the obvious reason.kairosfocus
January 26, 2014
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bornagain77 @28:
So Mapou, you hold that the God who spoke Job 38 is a finite being? I certainly don’t! In fact I can’t even conceive of such knowledge and power, as was manifested in the verses of Job 38, being confined to a finite being.
I can.
As well, I noticed you didn’t comment on Isaiah 46:9-10 which directly contradicted your claim that there was no verse that said God was omniscient. Or was that, in your eyes, just me misinterpreting the scripture again so you didn’t bother to acknowledge your mistake?
You are imagining things. There is no mistake to acknowledge. Here is the verse again:
Isaiah 46:9-10 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Where in this verse does it say anything about Yahweh being either infinitely powerful or infinitely knowledgeable? Enlighten me.Mapou
January 26, 2014
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M: First, I just note that your "ratios" -- note, your use of compared to -- are not the same as the things themselves. A subtle but important difference. The same finite distance, measured in light years will be a small fraction, but measured in Angstroms, it will be a large number. But all along it is the same distance, say from Papine to Half Way Tree in Kingston, Jamaica, or the length of Long Beach in Christchurch, Barbados [a mile]. On the way, a corrective note for me, if we try to assign a multiplicative inverse, say v, to the transfinite aleph Null, say A0, we see v * A0 --> 1. The cardinality of evens AND of natural no's will both be A0, and the division you proposed "translates" to v*A0 --> ??, or the same 1. But this is "toying" the real point is that cardinality of a transfinite countable set has different properties from that of a finite set. And in fact it is sets we are really dealing with here. To see that 1, 2, 3, . . . and 2, 4, 6 . . . have identical cardinality, let us do a transformation:
1 --> 2 * 1 --> 2 2 --> 2 * 2 --> 4 . . . n --> 2 * n --> 2n . . .
So the logic forces us to accept that N and the set of evens hold the same cardinality, A0. Being strange to us given our current concepts and being absurd in itself are different things. A simple case is how it is possible to stand at one and the same point and be due North of London, New York, and Tokyo. At first it seems odd, but the geographic North Pole is due North of every other point on the Eart's surface. This also holds for many concepts in theology and philosophy, that seem strange until worked through. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2014
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By the way, those of you who are under the false impression that calculus uses infinity, consider that digital computers routinely solve calculus problems and yet, nothing is more discrete and finite than a computer.Mapou
January 26, 2014
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Ladies and gentlemen, here is my argument again:
Compared to the infinitely large, everything is infinitely small. And compared to the infinitely small, everything is infinitely large. So, if infinity existed, everything would be infinitely large and infinitely small while also being finite at the same time. This is absurd on the face of it.
Unless you have a counter argument that either directly refutes it or agrees with it, you are wasting both your time and mine. Sorry. Querius @ 30, nope, that's not it.Mapou
January 26, 2014
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Querius, I agree with you. Cantor never proved anything wrt infinite sets and he is not God. Not only that there isn't any utility in saying all countable and infinite sets have the same cardinality. Cantor's is more dogma than mathematics.Joe
January 26, 2014
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As to Querius's comment here:
Divide the length of the circumference of a circle by the length of its diameter. How many digits are in the answer? From memory, the answer starts out 3.14159265358979323846264338327950… Thus, infinity exists in mathematics and in reality, falsifying your conclusion as well.
This is another place where the findings of modern science give us clear indication that 'the infinite' must reside in God. As Querius indicated we know that pi is infinite, although no finite being (or finite computer) has been, nor will ever be, able to elucidate all the numbers of pi. But whatever, or more precisely Whomever, brought this universe must have had/has knowledge of every number of the infinite number of pi. This is apparent since 'He', if I may be so bold as to use that pronoun, designed the universe along the parameters of pi, using the infinite pi as a sort of a template if you will.,,,
0 = 1 + e ^(i*pi) — Euler
The following is very interesting since, with the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR), the universe is found to actually be a circular sphere which 'coincidentally' corresponds to the circle of pi within Euler's identity:
Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, Planck's view of the Universe - Oct. 18, 2013 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn0FgOwyu0w The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the 4-D space-time of the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U The Cosmic Background Radiation Excerpt: These fluctuations are extremely small, representing deviations from the average of only about 1/100,000 of the average temperature of the observed background radiation. The highly isotropic nature of the cosmic background radiation indicates that the early stages of the Universe were almost completely uniform. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/cbr.html
Moreover, there is now known to be an unexpected 'flatness' to the universe that also corresponds to the diameter of pi in Euler’s identity:
Did the Universe Hyperinflate? – Hugh Ross – April 2010 Excerpt: Perfect geometric flatness is where the space-time surface of the universe exhibits zero curvature (see figure 3). Two meaningful measurements of the universe’s curvature parameter, ½k, exist. Analysis of the 5-year database from WMAP establishes that -0.0170 < ½k < 0.0068.4 Weak gravitational lensing of distant quasars by intervening galaxies places -0.031 < ½k < 0.009.5 Both measurements confirm the universe indeed manifests zero or very close to zero geometric curvature,,, http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate The curvature of the space time of the universe is 'flat' to at least 1 in 10^15 places of accuracy http://books.google.com/books?id=O_beAVEoR7sC&pg=PT88&lpg=PT88&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false Job 38:4-5 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
That the fine-tuning of the roundness and flatness of the universe are unexpected from a naturalistic perspective is revealed by the fact that naturalists attempted to 'explain it away' by postulating rapid inflation during the initial stages of the Big Bang, which, as Tegmark himself concedes,,
What Scientific Idea Is Ready For Retirement? Tegmark: “Infinity” – January 2014 Excerpt: Physics is all about predicting the future from the past, but inflation seems to sabotage this: when we try to predict the probability that something particular will happen, inflation always gives the same useless answer: infinity divided by infinity. The problem is that whatever experiment you make, inflation predicts that there will be infinitely many copies of you far away in our infinite space, obtaining each physically possible outcome, and despite years of tooth-grinding in the cosmology community, no consensus has emerged on how to extract sensible answers from these infinities. So strictly speaking, we physicists are no longer able to predict anything at all! This means that today’s best theories similarly need a major shakeup, by retiring an incorrect assumption. Which one? Here’s my prime suspect: infinity. MAX TEGMARK – Physicist
Thus Tegmark concedes that postulating a unconstrained random infinity, as was done with inflation, to explain the roundness of the universe is a epistemologically self-defeating proposition. Yet, in irony of ironies, he calls for retiring the concept of 'unconstrained infinity' from science altogether. A concept that he, as news pointed out in the OP, Max Tegmark himself was instrumental in championing in the first place:
Mathematician wonders about the respectful reception new multiverse book is getting - January 25, 2014 Excerpt: As recently as the 1990s, most scientists regarded the idea of multiple universes as wild speculation too far out on the fringe to be worth serious discussion. Indeed, in 1998, Max Tegmark, then an up-and-coming young cosmologist at Princeton, received an email from a senior colleague warning him off multiverse research: “Your crackpot papers are not helping you,” it said. Needless to say, Tegmark persisted in exploring the multiverse as a window on “the ultimate nature of reality”, while making sure also to work on subjects in mainstream cosmology as camouflage for his real enthusiasm. Today multiple universes are scientifically respectable, thanks to the work of Tegmark as much as anyone. Now a physics professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, he presents his multiverse work to the public in Our Mathematical Universe. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mathematician-wonders-about-the-respectful-reception-new-multiverse-book-is-getting/#comment-488558
Supplemental notes:
Hugh Ross PhD. - Scientific Evidence For Cosmological Constant (Expansion Of The Universe) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347218/
Besides the evidence that Dr. Ross listed for the 1 in 10^120 finely tuned expansion of the universe, this following paper clearly indicates that we do live in universe with a ‘true cosmological constant’. A cosmological constant that is not reducible to a materialistic basis. Thus, the atheistic astrophysicists are at a complete loss to explain why the universe expands in such a finely tuned way, whereas Theists are vindicated once again in their beliefs that the universal constants are truly transcendent!
Dark energy alternatives to Einstein are running out of room – January 9, 2013 Excerpt: Last month, a group of European astronomers, using a massive radio telescope in Germany, made the most accurate measurement of the proton-to-electron mass ratio ever accomplished and found that there has been no change in the ratio to one part in 10 million at a time when the universe was about half its current age, around 7 billion years ago. When Thompson put this new measurement into his calculations, he found that it excluded almost all of the dark energy models using the commonly expected values or parameters. If the parameter space or range of values is equated to a football field, then almost the whole field is out of bounds except for a single 2-inch by 2-inch patch at one corner of the field. In fact, most of the allowed values are not even on the field. “In effect, the dark energy theories have been playing on the wrong field,” Thompson said. “The 2-inch square does contain the area that corresponds to no change in the fundamental constants, (a 'true cosmological constant'), and that is exactly where Einstein stands.” http://phys.org/news/2013-01-dark-energy-alternatives-einstein-room.html
Music:
Elton John - Circle of Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZnCT14nRc
bornagain77
January 26, 2014
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Q: There actually is a non-standard development of calculus on hyper reals that takes up the infinitesimal and conceptualises it into something tractable, as opposed to the usual infinite series limits approach. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2014
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F/N: Pardon, but attempted division does weird things with transfinites and is a forbidden operation as a result. Think of p / q as find multiplicative inverse of q, q' and multiply: p x q'. Now, what is the multiplicative inverse of aleph-null? H'mm, that requires a div. by zero error if there ever was one! Verboten, tut, tut! Better view is that we identify transfinite sets by seeing the cardinality of a proper subset is the same as of the full set. Yes, that is strange, but it works. Doff hats for Cantor on that, knowing the price he paid for messing with ant trying to tame infinity. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2014
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@Querius:
Extrapolating, if you divide the infinite number of counting numbers by the infinite number of even numbers in the series, the answer will be exactly 2.
The cardinalities of "counting numbers" and "even numbers in the series" are both the same. So the answer is 1, not 2.JWTruthInLove
January 26, 2014
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"And the truth shall set you free", that is exactly why reading posts from BA77, Q, KF, VJT and others like them makes us die-hard fans of them and makes us want to read more and more. Kudos!Chalciss
January 26, 2014
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Mapou @ 11
Compared to the infinitely large, everything is infinitely small. And compared to the infinitely small, everything is infinitely large. So, if infinity existed, everything would be infinitely large and infinitely small while also being finite at the same time. This is absurd on the face of it.
Consider the set of counting numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. There are 10 of them. Notice that the set of even numbers is 5. Do the same for the set of counting numbers to 100, 1000, a million, and a trillion. There are still half as many even numbers. Extrapolating, if you divide the infinite number of counting numbers by the infinite number of even numbers in the series, the answer will be exactly 2. Thus, there are larger and smaller infinities, falsifying your first statement. Calculus is based on finding the sums of infinitesimally small slices of areas under 2D curves, from which we can calculate many things including the thermal efficiency of a Carnot engine (although it's easier to use the formula 1-T1/T2). The sum of an infinite number of infinitesimally small numbers is not infinitesimally small. For example, the thermal efficiency of a typical steam engine is about 0.4, and not zero. This falsifies your second statement. Divide the length of the circumference of a circle by the length of its diameter. How many digits are in the answer? From memory, the answer starts out 3.14159265358979323846264338327950... Thus, infinity exists in mathematics and in reality, falsifying your conclusion as well. -QQuerius
January 25, 2014
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Enough theology in this one thread for a divinity school. Anyone noted how Tegmark's philosophizing (with a clearly religious turn) can be advanced in science publications (SciAm comes to mind)? Odd that it bothers so few. Stephen Hawking/No Black Holes, by the way, reached 76 m on Google search.News
January 25, 2014
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So Mapou, you hold that the God who spoke Job 38 is a finite being? I certainly don't! In fact I can't even conceive of such knowledge and power, as was manifested in the verses of Job 38, being confined to a finite being. As well, I noticed you didn't comment on Isaiah 46:9-10 which directly contradicted your claim that there was no verse that said God was omniscient. Or was that, in your eyes, just me misinterpreting the scripture again so you didn't bother to acknowledge your mistake?bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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boranagain77, You are indeed a deceiver and you are not to be trusted.
Job 38 The Lord Reveals His Omnipotence to Job
This line is not found in the book of Job. It is an editorial addition by the translators of the New King James Bible. In other words, you have nothing to show but deception. And you know what? You will never have anything because you are lying to yourself and to others. Stop doing that. You're not doing God a favor.Mapou
January 25, 2014
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Interesting Mapou, never heard anyone claim God is not infinite in power and knowledge. Does it not bother you that you have a finite god instead of a infinite God? What church were you brought in? or what church do you currently go to that teaches this strange doctrine? Isaiah 46:9-10 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; Job 38 The Lord Reveals His Omnipotence to Job 38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 “Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb; 9 When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; 10 When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors; 11 When I said, ‘This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!’ 12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began, And caused the dawn to know its place, 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it? 14 It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment. 15 From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken. 16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths? 17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death? 18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this. 19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place, 20 That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home? 21 Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great? 22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail, 23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is light diffused, Or the east wind scattered over the earth? 25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or a path for the thunderbolt, 26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate waste, And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass? 28 Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth? 30 The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen. 31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion? 32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs? 33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth? 34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you? 35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, ‘Here we are!’? 36 Who has put wisdom in the mind?[b] Or who has given understanding to the heart? 37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together? 39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, 40 When they crouch in their dens, Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait? 41 Who provides food for the raven, When its young ones cry to God, And wander about for lack of food?bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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bornagain77,
Funny Mapou, you rail against infinity being real on the one hand but then on the other you say the ‘science of this world’ will be crushed by, what I assume is, the infinite wonder and glory of God.
The science of this world is hopelessly infatuated with infinity. Black holes, wormholes, Big Bangs, infinite parallel universes, etc., are all based on continuity, which assumes infinity.
Which is it, does the infinite not exist? or does infinite power exist in God? And if you don’t think God is infinitely powerful, just how much finite power are you willing to grant him? Just asking, inquiring minds and all that!
The concept of infinite power is both absurd and stupid. It is a concept created by weak men who do not understand that they, too, are gods. Sure, Yahweh's power and wisdom are enormous and can continue to grow indefinitely, if he so wishes, but that is not the same as saying that they are infinite. Show me a single quote from the scriptures where Yahweh says, "I am infinitely powerful" or "I have infinite knowledge of the past present and future." This stuff is not even wrong. It makes a mockery of God and opens a door for the forces of evil to come in and mock God and his people.Mapou
January 25, 2014
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Funny Mapou, you rail against infinity being real on the one hand but then on the other you say the 'science of this world' will be crushed by, what I assume is, the infinite wonder and glory of God. Which is it, does the infinite not exist? or does infinite power exist in God? And if you don't think God is infinitely powerful, just how much finite power are you willing to grant him? Just asking, inquiring minds and all that!bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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bornagain77 @22, Your self-deception is as bold and in-your-face as that of a Jerry Coyne or a Richard Dawkins. But it does not fool me. Why should anybody try to understand something that does not exist? The non-existence of infinity has absolutely nothing to do with materialism of naturalism. Another thing that bothers me about you is your constant use of this world's pathological science to prove your Christian faith. Don't you know that Yahweh's science makes a mockery of human science? Yahweh and the host of his angels laughs at the stuff you bring up to defend your doctrine. I, too, join them in poking fun at it. Don't you know that this world's science is carefully designed to deny God and his glory? But those of you who truly have faith in Yahweh will not have long to wait to see His science manifested in this world and crush the science of this world like one crushes a bug underfoot.Mapou
January 25, 2014
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Mapou, in your argument, you are trying to understand the infinite from a finite materialistic/naturalistic perspective. OF COURSE it is logically absurd from that position. Why should I try to refute your argument when I agree with you 100% that materialism/naturalism cannot handle the infinite? i.e. non sequitur!bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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bornagain77, Unless you are prepared refute my argument @11 against infinity, everything you write from now on is unimportant to me. In fact, my respect for you has taken a precipitous dive. See you around.Mapou
January 25, 2014
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Ok sorry this subject has me really worrying because if brain states occur and we have no control over this what does this show for free will. Anyway sorry again!Jaceli123
January 25, 2014
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Mapou, it is also humorous to note that you simply cannot wish infinity away by demanding everyone else bow to your will that infinity should be stricken from discussion in science. Science simply does not work that way! (Much less do scientists work that way). If you want to be taken seriously then you have to provide a rigorous mathematical/logical proof as to why infinity is persona no gratis in science.,,, Which I wish you luck in, because it was through the 'logic of infinity' that Godel was able to bring the incompleteness theorem to fruition.
Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821
It is also interesting to note in the following video, that documents the lives of several mathematicians who were studying infinity, that there was a strange streak of madness that followed them in this endeavor:
BBC-Dangerous Knowledge - Part 1 (Cantor and Boltzmann) https://vimeo.com/30482156 Part 2 (Godel and Turing) https://vimeo.com/30641992
Personally I find the fact that man should even be able to contemplate the infinite to be a wonderful mystery. A mystery I hold is related to the fact that we were created by infinite God, in his image, to have a personal relationship with Him. Verse and Music:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Brooke Fraser - Hillsong: “Lord Of Lords” Worship and Praise Song (HQ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB4Tc5zJMUc
bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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Jaceli123, sorry I'm not watching any of your off topic rabbit trail videos anymore. You have to do your own homework!bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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@bornagain77 thanks also what are the implications of this video! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CT43MogXAjIJaceli123
January 25, 2014
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Mapou, actually I did not presuppose that God, through Christ, could 'tame the irreconcilable infinity problem' that had popped up between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. In fact I did not even know the infinity problem between the two existed until a few years ago, but I can not deny that I was very pleasantly surprised that Christ offered such a 'neat', very credible, empirically backed, reconciliation between the two grand theories of physics. You accuse of me that I would 'rather believe in lies than change your doctrine', but I strongly disagree with, what I find to be, your emotional assessment. I came to the table of science many years ago willing to let the evidence speak for itself, and to not try to force fit the evidence into any preconceived notions that I may have had. Thus my Christian belief was very vulnerable to falsification at the time. But what I have found through the years is that, not only has my basic Christian belief not been threatened by the findings of modern science, the findings of modern science actually require Christianity to be true in order for a 'theory of everything' to truly be successful in the reconciliation of General relativity and Quantum Mechanics (not to mention the reconciliation of perfect God with imperfect man)! "So you think of physics in search of a "Grand Unified Theory of Everything", Why should we even think there is such a thing? Why should we think there is some ultimate level of resolution? Right? It is part, it is a consequence of believing in some kind of design. Right? And there is some sense in which that however mulrifarious and diverse the phenomena of nature are, they are ultimately unified by the minimal set of laws and principles possible. In so far as science continues to operate with that assumption, there is a presupposition of design that is motivating the scientific process. Because it would be perfectly easy,, to stop the pursuit of science at much lower levels. You know understand a certain range of phenomena in a way that is appropiate to deal with that phenomena and just stop there and not go any deeper or any farther.",,, You see, there is sense in which there is design at the ultimate level, the ultimate teleology you might say, which provides the ultimate closure,," Professor Steve Fuller quote as stated At 17:34 minute mark of the following video In Cambridge, Professor Steve Fuller discusses intelligent design - Video https://uncommondescent.com/news/in-cambridge-professor-steve-fuller-discusses-why-the-hypothesis-of-intelligent-design-is-not-more-popular-among-scientists-and-others/bornagain77
January 25, 2014
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Querius @12:
Mapou, Some infinities exist in reality, some do not.
I disagree.
For example, if I draw a line that’s one meter long, and then poke a pinhole somewhere on that line, there are an infinite number of places on that line, all irrational number distances from one end, where the hole could appear.
Saying that there is an infinite number of places on that line does not make it so. It is an assertion, not a proof. PS. Please, don't circumvent my proof against infinity @11 above with other arguments. Either prove me wrong (if you do, I'll bow down to your superior understanding and apologize for my foolishness) or accept that I am right (in which case, you must bow down to my superior understanding and make amends). Anything else is just useless talk.Mapou
January 25, 2014
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bornagain77 @13, Your reply to my comment @11 is exactly what I expected from you. You would rather believe in lies than change your doctrine. Your doctrine IS your God. You worship your idea of God more than you worship God. That makes you an idolater in my book. Good luck with that.Mapou
January 25, 2014
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Mapou, I'm quite happy to let what I wrote, and referenced, stand on its own merits, as I am quite happy to let what you wrote fall by the same standards. Infinity is a wild, wild, horse and any material explanation will be thrown off into the dirt of epistemological absurdity. Only God, who is infinite, not infinity, can tame infinity. Only God who is omniscient, knows every number in pi, or possesses the infinite knowledge necessary to collapse the infinite dimensional quantum wave state to a photon of one bit. The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect;,,, from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present: Sir Isaac Newton - Quoted from what many consider the greatest science masterpiece of all time, his book "Principia" http://gravitee.tripod.com/genschol.htmbornagain77
January 25, 2014
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Mapou, Some infinities exist in reality, some do not. For example, if I draw a line that's one meter long, and then poke a pinhole somewhere on that line, there are an infinite number of places on that line, all irrational number distances from one end, where the hole could appear. -QQuerius
January 25, 2014
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