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Michael Behe, Eric Anderson, David Chiu, Kirk Durston mentioned favorably in ID-sympathetic Peer-Reviewed Article

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Congratulations to Michael Behe, Eric Anderson, David Chiu, Kirk Durston (members of ISCID). They were mentioned in the peer reviewed journal International Journal of Molecular Sciences. References were made to Darwin’s Black Box by Michael Behe, “Irreducible Comlexity Reduced” in ISCID’s PCID by Eric Anderson, and peer-reviewed works by David Chiu and Kirk Durston.

Here is the paper: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity

Great paper!

The cause and evolution of complexity are frequently addressed in the literature [10, 134-141]. How complexity relates to life has attracted innumerable papers [6, 142-148]. Systems Biology emphasizes the growing genomic and epigenetic complexity [149-151]. Attempts to deal with Behe’s “irreducible complexity” [152] are appearing more often in scientific literature [153-157].

The much vaunted Avida community is indirectly criticized:

Despite the appealing similarities of terms like “chromosomes,” GA’s have no relevance whatsoever to molecular evolution or gene emergence. Inanimate nature cannot define a fitness function over measures of the quality of representations of solutions. GAs are no model at all of natural process. GA’s are nothing more than multiple layers of abstract conceptual engineering. Like language, we may start with a random phase space of alphabetical symbols. But no meaning or function results without deliberate and purposeful selection of letters out of that random phase space. No abiotic primordial physicodynamic environment could have exercised such programming prowess.

Neither physics nor chemistry can dictate formal optimization, any more than physicality itself generates the formal study of physicality. Human epistemological pursuits are formal enterprises of agent minds. Natural process GAs have not been observed to exist. The GAs of living organisms are just metaphysically presupposed to have originated through natural process. We can liberally employ GAs and so-called evolutionary algorithms for all sorts of productive tasks. But GAs cannot be used to model spontaneous life origin through natural process because GAs are formal.

The OOL community is indirectly criticized. “Choice with intent” might be a stealth phrase for intelligence. “Choice with intent” is required of any agency that creates organization:

Organization ≠ order. Disorganization ≠ disorder. Self-ordering of many kinds occurs spontaneously every day in nature in the absence of any organization. Spontaneous bona fide self-organization, on the other hand, has never been observed.

“Self-organization” is logically a nonsense term. Inanimate objects cannot organize themselves into integrated, cooperative, holistic schemes. Schemes are formal, not physical. To organize requires choice contingency, not just chance contingency and law-like necessity. Sloppy definitions lead to fallacious inferences, especially to category errors. Organization requires 1) decision nodes, 2) steering toward a goal of formal function, 3) algorithmic optimization, 4) selective switch-setting to achieve integration of a circuit, 5) choice with intent.

The only entity that logically could possibly The only entity that logically could possibly be considered to organize itself is an agent. But not even an agent self-organizes. Agents organize things and events in their lives. They do not organize their own molecular biology, cellular structure, organs and organ systems. Agents do not organize their own being. Agents do not create themselves.
…
We will point to hundreds of peer-reviewed papers with “self-organization” in their titles. But when all of these papers are carefully critiqued with a proper scientific skepticism, our embarrassment only grows with each exposure of the blatant artificial selection that was incorporated into each paper’s experimental design. Such investigator involvement is usually readily apparent right within Materials and Methods of the paper.

passing mention of macro evolution is made:

Linear digital prescription in physical nucleic acid has thus far invariably been associated with life. A fully post modern anthropocentrism cannot argue a logically consistent macroevolutionary paradigm.

the conclusion:

To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it:

“Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut [9]: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.”

HT: chunkdz at Telic Thoughts

Notes:

1. “choice is the defining feature of intelligence” — William Dembski

2. The relationship of “choice” versus “chance and necessity” as well as the relationship of “choice” and “intelligence” was discussed peripherally at UD here: Cosmological ID in 1744?

3. The only mention of Darwin in this paper was in the title of with Behe’s book and in sentences with words like “confused”.

Comments
Incidentally, Nobel Laureate Wigner was skeptical of Darwinian evolution. The essay by Wigner which was referenced above through John Baez paper was mentioned favorably in the book which founded the 1984 ID movement, Mystery of Life's Origin. Wigner wrote his essay in Polanyi's book around 1960 just before he was awarded the Nobel prize. I don't believe his essay is beyond repair if we increase the dimensions of H to be non-trivial, but that is just a guess at this point. I have to look into it more. Salscordova
April 18, 2009
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.tfel dna thgir em gniteled erew uoy nehw em ot ti tup uoy sa "flesruoy morf uoy tcetorp ot" gniyrt ylno ma I .laS em natsrednusim t'noDJohnADavison
April 17, 2009
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a I i you ou aao i ae o e a "i iuee" ui you ae oee you auae uie. oee, I o' ee o you oiy a ae e ie o i.JohnADavison
April 17, 2009
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e i o. y ai y eae, ooa ai e i oei e o ye. y e ae ei a oe o oi e ae i? I i e you y. ey ae o aei o aiia, a' y. I i a o eiee i' i?JohnADavison
April 17, 2009
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[Here was my response (226792) to Olegt's very fine critique:] olegt, Thank you for the insights. Your above paragraph is already the best critique that I have seen regarding Abel's paper. I will reference your comments at UD because I think the objections you raise are substantial.
The choice of the mathematical language depends on the physical system. Yes, many physical theories contain differential equations: classical mechanics of a few particles is described in terms of ordinary DEs. But try to extend it to a system of many particles and you'll quickly find that it is not guaranteed to work. In some cases it will: theory of elasticity and fluid mechanics are based on partial DEs. In others it won't: you can say that "Differential equations don't describe" the properties of a gas in thermal equilibrium. We have to use an entirely different mathematical language: statistics.
Agreed, I retract my earlier statement. I stand corrected.
There are of course physical systems where even the basic rules are not stated in the form of DEs. Take the Ising model of a ferromagnet, which played a very important role in the development of the modern theory of critical phenomena. Its variables are binary numbers (a spin points either up or down) and its dynamics is discrete. Kinetics of crystal growth is also modeled by discrete variables.
And my understanding is that even solutions to differential equations may entail discrete states. For example there may be infinite solutions to Schrodinger's equations in various circumstances, but these solutions occur only in discrete states, i.e. the allowed energy levels of the electron correspond to the solutions of Schrodinger's differential equation, and these levels occur at discrete level. It is because the universes is subject to quantum law that some argue that the universe as a whole is a giant quantum computer. I found passing mention of this here: Church Turing Thesis. But the question of OOL is not merely whether a system is capable of computation, but whether the system will compute and construct physical replicas of itself. When a stone is thrown in a still pond, a wave is formed, and in a sense a wave "replicates" itself through the water as it travels. It is certainly conceivable that Ising's work would suggest that a configuration of spins could replicate and propagate in a material, but this does not seem at all analogous to the propagation of replicas that we see in bioogical systems. It seems the question of what kind of replication constitutes life. I think more work in understanding what is meant by replication is in question. The question of what constitutes was indirectly raised by John Baez's commentary on Eugene Wigner's paper: Is Life Improbable. Baez left open the question of what constitutes replication. I think the question is not whether replication is possible, but the kind of replication taking place, namely the sort involving the materials we see in life. As Baez pointed out, as best as I can tell, one can define what observables one wishes to observe, and one can see a replication if one chooses to. [That's at least how I interpet Baez' paper].scordova
April 16, 2009
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One of the better objections to Abel's paper was put forward by Olegt, a very fine Condensed Matter Physicist at a very fine school. He posted his comments at TelicThoughts (where this discussion actually began as referenced in the original post). Here was my comment 226701:
My understanding is that much of physcisal law is described by differential equations. Differential equations don't describe the essential architecture of computer systems. Experimental results seem to agree with Abel. Life has not been observed to spontaneously emerge.
Here was Olegt's response 226774
The choice of the mathematical language depends on the physical system. Yes, many physical theories contain differential equations: classical mechanics of a few particles is described in terms of ordinary DEs. But try to extend it to a system of many particles and you'll quickly find that it is not guaranteed to work. In some cases it will: theory of elasticity and fluid mechanics are based on partial DEs. In others it won't: you can say that "Differential equations don't describe" the properties of a gas in thermal equilibrium. We have to use an entirely different mathematical language: statistics. One can say that the dynamics of individual molecules in a gas is still governed by Newton's laws, which are expressed by ordinary DEs. That is the reductionist approach and in this case it fails spectacularly. The DEs of Newtonian mechanics are invariant under time reversal: if you film the motion of a particle or a collision of two particles and then run the tape backwards, the time-reversed motion still obeys all of Newton's laws. However, we know that gas, a collection of a large number of molecules does not behave in a reversible manner. The entropy of an isolated system tends to increase with time. A broken glass does not spontaneously reassemble and jump back to the table. So the naive expectation of the reductionist (thermodynamics reduces to Newtonian mechanics) is shattered in the relatively simple case of a gas. It doesn't mean that science fails to describe thermal phenomena. It's the reductionist approach that fails. That's why I find Abel's null hypothesis silly. There are of course physical systems where even the basic rules are not stated in the form of DEs. Take the Ising model of a ferromagnet, which played a very important role in the development of the modern theory of critical phenomena. Its variables are binary numbers (a spin points either up or down) and its dynamics is discrete. Kinetics of crystal growth is also modeled by discrete variables. And these models in statistical physics are a short step from cellular automata, a class of mathematical models with discrete states and simple sets of rules governing their dynamics in discrete time. Guess what, one of these cellular automata, known as Rule 110, is capable of universal computation. In this case, trivial rules give rise to highly nontrivial behavior. Does that undermine Abel's case? I think so.
scordova
April 16, 2009
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To conserve cyberspace - http://www.iscid.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000370&p=108#001620 my comment April 15, 2009, 8:40 AMJohnADavison
April 16, 2009
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"The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history." anonymous? It is hard to believe isn't it? Not any longer it isn't!JohnADavison
April 16, 2009
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nd lk wht hppnd t hm!JohnADavison
April 16, 2009
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Wh dn't s r nw fnd nflnc hr nd hv m bnshd? Tht s wht DvSct (Dvd Srngr) sd t d. N gts n glr.JohnADavison
April 16, 2009
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Scrdv nw prfctl wll tht m nt th n mdfng m cmmnts. r dng t nd r dng t mlcsl. f wr stpd ngh nt t rcgnz m srcsm bt r shbb plc f rbtrr dltn, shldn't b n "hr." r DvSct ll vr gn nl tn tms wrs. Th w hv pndrd t lln McNll, rbd Drwnn s dsgrc. cn't rsn wth Drwnn, lssn r nbl t ndrstnd. Nw dsmvwl ths n t! Now disemvowel this one too! JohnADavison
April 15, 2009
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Sl r cmmttng prfssnl scd wth r dgnrt tctcs. wll nvr gn b rspctd nd t wn't b jst b m. nj r mmnt n th sn.
What you write has nothing to do with Abel's paper and the topic of this thread. UD is under no obligation to keep posting numerous off topic comments by repeat offenders. Besides John, you said:
You now have my permission to continue deleting every new message I present without a word of explanation.
I have a responsibility to the readers to help keep the discussion on topic.scordova
April 15, 2009
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Th prsnc f #368 prvs tht Slvdr Crdv hs n bsnss bng n "thr" t ncmmn Dcsnt. Ths thrd s jst nthr flm pt lk ftr th Br Clss. Shm n Sl!JohnADavison
April 15, 2009
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Suffice to say, I will let defenders of evoutionary theories compartmentalize the ideas whichever way they wish, it won’t change the fundamental problems of OOL. That's not a bad policy Sal and you are right with regard to OOL Personally, I don't care if OOL is included with NDE, but if an NDE defender insists that it's not it is appropriate, and necessary, to point out that he is either speaking for himself or demand that he join us in condemning things like that Berkeley site or museum exhibits or textbooks that conflate them.tribune7
April 15, 2009
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Sl s r stll dltng m rght nd lft. t s ll mttr f rcrd n m "Wh Bnshmnt?" thrd. Dn't frgt t dlt ths n t.JohnADavison
April 15, 2009
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If all sides can agree that Darwinian evolution doesn’t explain the origin of life, I’m content to accept that. All sides don’t agree Sal. In fact, the determination to separate ool from evo by Darwinians seems to be based more on conditions and expediency rather than with the goal to enlighten i.e. Evolution 101 — from soup to cells– the origin of life
Thank you for the info Tribune. It demonstrates there may be a variety of viewpoints on the definition. But as a matter of principle, it is more important to discuss the plausibility of materialistic OOL. Arguing over whether it should be lumped in or not with evolutionary theory is a sideshow and is therefore a distraction. Suffice to say, I will let defenders of evoutionary theories compartmentalize the ideas whichever way they wish, it won't change the fundamental problems of OOL. I have never gotten a complaint for separating the two ideas from the anti-ID side for making the separation. I've never improved my defense of ID by lumping OOL and biological evolution together. I don't think there is much to gain by insisting the two concepts be lumped together.scordova
April 13, 2009
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JohnADavison: MacNeill reminds me of Alan Fox who also follows me around like a “dog”
John, Such inflammatory comments have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and you are referencing discussions outside of this thread with no relevance to this thread. Salscordova
April 13, 2009
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Stephen B in #346 It is not I who is on the sidelines and not on the field of play. It is devout Darwinian mystics like Allen MacNeill, Richard Dawkins, Stephen J. Gould, Ernst Mayr and P.Z. Myers that are now on the sidelines. No one even cites them any more because an enlightened evolutionary community has rejected the Darwinian fairy tale as without foundation, a house of cards which never had anything to do with speciation or the origin of any other taxa in either the plant or animal kingdoms. Darwinian evolution has achieved the same credibility as Phlogiston and Ether, neither of which even exist! Get used to it as I and countless others already have. Just because Allen MacNeill insists on remaining a Darwinian doesn't mean anyone else should. If you don't want me to respond here, don't say silly things like that snd i won't have to respond.JohnADavison
April 13, 2009
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If all sides can agree that Darwinian evolution doesn’t explain the origin of life, I’m content to accept that. All sides don't agree Sal. In fact, the determination to separate ool from evo by Darwinians seems to be based more on conditions and expediency rather than with the goal to enlighten i.e. Evolution 101 -- from soup to cells-- the origin of life tribune7
April 13, 2009
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jerry,
Allen MacNeill who is commenting on this thread quite intensely, has said Darwin is dead
that's it? but you said "even hardcore atheists and evolutionary biolgists admit that darwin is dead", which sounds plural to me, and makes it sound like there is some kind of consensus, when in fact it's just one guy commenting on a blog. thanks for the clarification.
Michael Shermer is one who said that natural selection is the heart of naturalistic evolution and I believe someone named Charles Darwin had a similar point of view. Or am I wrong that natural selection is/was a big part of Darwin’s theory.
of course natural selection is critical to all forms of adaptive evolution. it is a necessary but not sufficient condition for adaptation to occur. but no one ever said it was a creative force, so you seem to be arguing against your own version of it.
If you want to bring up minor changes to the eye which aided color vision. Fine and good but where did the eye come from?
i was using that as a simple illustration of gradualism.. the actual evolution of the eye itself is much more complex, as you'll find when you read this paper:Lamb TD, Collin SP, Pugh EN Jr. (2007) Evolution of the vertebrate eye: opsins, photoreceptors, retina and eye cup. Nat Rev Neurosci 8(12):960-76. ps i still want to know who is furiously defending common descent, and from whom.Khan
April 13, 2009
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While Allen MacNeill has built a firewall between OOL and evolution, this has not stopped many who discuss OOL from using things like natural selection, survival of the fittest, more efficient use of resources in a scarce environment in their search for a chain of events from molecules to microbes.jerry
April 13, 2009
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khan, Allen MacNeill who is commenting on this thread quite intensely, has said Darwin is dead and not just literally which I think is one thing we all can agree with. We all agree that natural selection works but like you said it does not create anything. It just selects what is already there. So we agree it is a weak force, is essentially destructive and does not create. It just selects. ID accepts micro evolution so bringing up examples of them does not do your argument any good. If you want to bring up minor changes to the eye which aided color vision. Fine and good but where did the eye come from? Story telling may be useful but it is not evidence. Maybe at some future time we can deal with the various stories and assess their relevance. Michael Shermer is one who said that natural selection is the heart of naturalistic evolution and I believe someone named Charles Darwin had a similar point of view. Or am I wrong that natural selection is/was a big part of Darwin's theory. Eventually you will find some relevant criticism of what I say and I can learn from it. So keep it up but probably not here since this is supposedly about OOL and most of us have been off thread so I will not comment any more here except on that topic.jerry
April 13, 2009
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"Ergo, what jerry asserts is the whole of “exaptation” is actually only one mechanism from dozens, possibly hundreds, by which the demographic distribution of heritable phenotypes may change over time in populations of living organisms." Well If I said "whole" (and I searched the whole thread and it wasn't in any of my posts - now I used it), I was using it as hyperbole. Allen you are the one who said I got it right and the Brosius article which leads off the Vrba and Eldredge book is essentially about the concept of the exaptation of non coding regions to functional use.jerry
April 13, 2009
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Upright Biped: Well said! INFORMATION is central to modern life and science. But we directly empirically know that information, functionally specific, complex information comes from intelligence. In every case where we can directly track down the source. (And side debates on defns and quantification etc are simply distractive. We have good enough definitions and concepts with instances, and we have simple and more elaborate quantifications, with 35 recently published values of FSC, as the referenced paper cites. [Cf WACs and glossary for more if you want more onlookers.]) EMPIRICAL CLAIM: There are no known cases of 1,000+ bits worth of functional information originating by chance, whatever some may assert. [To refute this, simply produce a directly observed case. We have been waiting on that for months or years here at UD. A whole Internet full of examples is just Exhibit no 1 on the empirical claim above.] On inference to best explanation, FSCI, and its more technical forms, FSC and CSI, are the product of directed, purposeful contingency. Indeed, stochastic, undirected contingency on the gamut of our cosmos, is unable to find such targets. for, a space that can sample 10^150 configs, is not going to scratch the surface of a space of 10^301, which is what 1,000 bits specifies. And, credible simplest independent life forms are at about 600 k bits, or 10^180,617 configs. Worse, the info in the cell is integrated into a certain known irreducibly complex entity: a computer, a structured digital data storing, step by step algorithm executing, self-replicating computer using informational molecular based nanotech. provide an empirically credible explaantion of such per chance + necessity only in any reasonable pre-biotic environment plese Mr Fox et al, or surrender tothe point thqa the only known source odf such systems is irtnelligence. And, to elaborate first body plan into teh major configs, we have incremets of 10's - 100"s odf mega bits of information to account for, ocver 500+ mY or so, indeed in a 10 MY window inthat span. Kindly jsutify that origin by chance + necessity, with empirical support. We know that intelligences can routinely create designs embedding that scope of functional info. We even were able to predict the sort of architecture that a self-replicating entity would require in the 1940's -- a decade before DNA was discovered and subsequently shown to be the blueprint. Just, we have not built self-replicating automata yet. [I want to get tht going, as such automata look great for terraforming Mars to me! (Ship out a rocketful of them as seeds, and let them build themselves and then get to work on building the Martian environment for the first colonists to move into.) then, on to the asteroid belt. I want to be talking to my grandson on Mars, with my great grandson born there! So let's get cracking on a 40 year project.] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 13, 2009
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I see that Allen MacNeill has followed me over to Dembski's thread to further whine about my imagined incivility. MacNeill reminds me of Alan Fox who also follows me around like a "dog" with one goal in mind - to discredit me whatever the cost. I am flattered by the attention. I find it to be very revealing.JohnADavison
April 12, 2009
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Allen at 348. Thank you for that recounting of evolutionary biology, but I must say it was uneccesary. Unfortunately, you've failed to address the issue, and the substance of your post provided nothing but a demonstration of my previous comment. You operate under an assumption that is wholly unproven, yet your assumptions are held without even the slightest margin for error. The strong (and repeated) inferences being derived from OBSERVATIONS of nucleic information are that a non-agency cause for life is very likely to be 100% dead wrong - and those observationas are ignored by evolutionary biologists (as you have done) or given lip service to discoveries just around the bend (as you've done) or flanked by collateral observations that never rise beyond the trivial (as you have done). Allen, you are wrong. You cannot be correct in assumming a material cause for functional nucleic sequencing in the face of substantial unanswered counter evidence. Instead, you are obligated to respond to that evidence if you intend to retain your prior assumptions. The distinction between non-living matter and functional living tissue is information, written in a language, and forming instructions that have meaning. This phenomena is being studied and understood, and the issues it raises are germane to your assumptions and must be addressed in earnest. Metabolism first? Instructions first? It does not matter, you have nothing to assume. So, do not attempt to flank the argument with collateral observations that do nothing to impact the evidence being presented, do not attempt to denigrate the evidence or its sources or authors, and do not attempt to play a process game with the various specialties and divisions within biology, instead, MEET the evidence in a straightforward manner, just this once:
The capabilities of stand-alone chaos, complexity, self-ordered states, natural attractors, fractals, drunken walks, complex adaptive systems, and other subjects of non linear dynamic models are often inflated. Scientific mechanism must be provided for how purely physicodynamic phenomena can program decision nodes, optimize algorithms, set configurable switches so as to achieve integrated circuits, achieve computational halting, and organize otherwise unrelated chemical reactions into a protometabolism. To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut [9]: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis.
Upright BiPed
April 12, 2009
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Khan wrote: the origin of chlorplasts and mitochondria by endosymbiosis is a critical example o the formation of new complex capabilities
I'm afraid this is an example of proof by assertion. It would be fair to say there is evidence apparently supportive of endosymbiosis. It is quite another thing to assert endosymbiosis is as empirically validated as an accepted law of physics. To quote Albert DeRoos, a cellular biologist who studies these things:
Well, I think the endosymbiotic theories are far from being proven. The endosymbiotic theory of the origin of the nucleus is just wild speculation. There are so many mechanistic problems with it that one has to conclude that it is practically impossible. How can people propose such a theory without even discuss how the nuclear mRNA export mechanism was implemented? There are also major difficulties with the endosymbiotic theories of the origin of chloroplasts and mitochondria. Their early divergence of the root of the Tree of Life, the mechanism of endosymbiosis, the emergence of their mutual genetic dependence etc. Currently it is like 'one bacterium swallowed another, and they lived together happily ever after'. Just like common descent, we do know that bacteria and mito's have genes in common. It doesn't say anything about the mechanism. --Albert DeRoos Informal Discussion at ARN
This thread isn't the place to get into big discussion about endosymbiosis primarily because without OOL, it is a moot point. I would point out however, if endosymbiosis is an unproven theory, it might be disqualified as a proof that large scale integrated information can spontaneously evolve.scordova
April 12, 2009
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Allen wrote: Ergo, there is a fundamental dividing line between the purely chemical and physical processes that are invoked to explain the spontaneous origin of life from non-living materials and the biological processes which, operating together, produce the phenomenon we refer to as biological evolution. No amount of unsupported assertion can make this fundamental division go away, no matter how much the people making the assertions (on both sides of the OOL issue) would like it to.
Allen, [Thank you again for you patience. I was logged off for a while before noticing your comments.] I've generally been ambivalent to this issue, and in light of the fact David Abel appears to be in general agreement with you, I would have to tentatively agree, thus reversing my slight (and I emphasize slight) bias toward lumping chemical evolution with biological evolution. Finally, I don't see that it helps arguments in favor of ID to try to conflate OOL with biological evolution. It doesn't clarify ID arguments, and it just results in sideshows about definitions. If all sides can agree that Darwinian evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, I'm content to accept that. Salscordova
April 12, 2009
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jerry, I've counted about 8 misconceptions in your posts. here we go 1)
Even the committed atheists and evolutionary biologists admit that Darwin is dead.
assuming you don't mean physically dead, which everyone agrees is true, I'd like to see some support for this assertion. Natural selection and common descent, the key components of Darwin's theory are alive and well, and I haven't heard anyone besides ID people make this claim. 2) Exaptation not adaptation. Darwin hmself mentioned exaptation as a possible mechanism for adaptation (see chapter 6 of Oo Species). Again exaptation is a form of adaptation so I'm not sure what you mean here. and there is lots of evidence for other kinds of adaptation.. e.g. symbiosis, co-evolution, good old mutation and selection.. 3)
So gradualism in the Darwin sense is out but a new form of gradualism is taking hold
there is very nice evidence for gradualism in e.g. the evolution of color vision (series of 3 slightly beneficial mutations leading to a large shift in visual sensitivity). the shift of jawbones to earbones in mammals is nicely documented as a series of gradual changes in the fossil record. feathers evolved in a very gradual manner from simple unbranched rachis to "fuzzy" rachis w branched barbs to rachis w branched barbs and branched barbules and finally to asymmetric flight feathers. so in what sense is it dead? 4)
natural selection exists but is a destructive and conservative force not a creative one
exactly who has ever argued that natural selection is a creative force? speaking of strawmen.. 5)
There is no malthusian competition for resources driving change
adaptaion through NS can occur without any competition for resources, which was shown during the modern syntheis 80 years ago. it also happens when there is intense competition. so what is your point? 6)
Only common descent remains which is why now you have people fighting desperately for that.
fighting desperately? even your hero Michael Behe accepts common descent. who is fighting and how? 7)
My problem is that no one has shown that Allen MacNeill’s 50+ engines of variation ever produced anything meaningful for natural selection to operate on.
this is where you need to do more research. you can start by looking at the two papers I linked you to. or the evolution of sex chromosomes: http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v102/n3/full/hdy2008115a.html 8)
So far I have not seen any credible evidence that points to any process as capable of producing the variance in a gene pool to get from microbes to man and many of the steps along the way.
evolution is a bush, not a ladder, asi think you know. but i will repeat something fro the umpteenth time, namely that the origin of chlorplasts and mitochondria by endosymbiosis is a critical example o the formation of new complex capabilities. lots of new "information" is generated as the process proceeds, so this is not just chunking two existing things together. just bc you won't accept it doesn;t mean it doesn't exist.Khan
April 12, 2009
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In #350 jerry wrote:
"My problem is that no one has shown that Allen MacNeill’s 50+ engines of variation ever produced anything meaningful for natural selection to operate on."
This is simply not true. There is a vast and growing literature on precisely this subject. For example, Sean Carroll's book, Endless Forms Most Beautiful contains hundreds of examples of major phenotypic changes produced by relatively minor changes in homeotic regulatory mechanisms. One need only follow up on the references Carroll provides for each chapter in his book to read the primary literature on this subject. BTW, the mechanisms described by Carroll are #8 - 14 and #37 - 39 in my list of the "engines of variation" at http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.htmlAllen_MacNeill
April 12, 2009
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