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Miracles and the Principle of Causality

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In a prior post EJ wrote:  “I think natural intelligences are to be preferred above supernatural intelligences in design detection, for the simple reason that we have experience with the former, but not the latter.” 

I replied:  “Says who? You are repeating Hume’s error of circular reasoning. “Miracles do not happen because they are counter to universal experience.”  In other words, “miracles do not happen because miracles do not happen.”  That may satisfy you and Hume.  Those who would like to have their conclusions demonstrated rather than assumed might not be as impressed.” 

Then evo_materialist wrote:  “BarryA, you may have experience with miracles.  Alas, I do not, and neither has anybody I know in a way that’s not better explained naturally.” 

Pace evo’s comment, I never said I personally have had experience with miracles.  My comment is a matter of the application of logic to EJ’s (and Hume’s before him) position.  In other words, my point is that Hume’s position fails on logical grounds, not because my experience is different from his.   

Hume (and EJ and Evo) asserts a univeral principle of natural law, which Karl Popper calls ‘the principle of causality.’

This is what Karl Popper says about this principle in The Logic of Scientific Discovery (which, as far as I know, is the only scientific text with the force of law in the United States): 

“The ‘principle of causality’ is the assertion that any event whatsoever can be causally explained – that it can be deductively predicted . . . If . . . ‘can’ is meant to signify that the world is governed by strict laws, that it is so constructed that every specific event is an instance of a universal regularity or law, then the assertion is admittedly synthetic.  But in this case is not falsifiable . . . I shall, therefore, neither adopt nor reject the ‘principle of causality’; I shall be content simply to exclude it, as ‘metaphysical’, from the sphere of science.” 

Hume and EJ and Evo think they are being “scientific” when they reject miracles a priori.  But as Popper convincingly demonstrates, they are merely showing their metaphysical prejudices.   

Moreover, the premise of Hume’s statement is incorrect.  His premise is that the universal experince of the human race is that miracles do not occur.  This is not true.  Miracles have been reported and many people believe those miracles actually occurred.  For example, a man reportedly rose from the dead outside the city of Jerusalem circa 33 AD.  Of the 6.6 billion people on the earth, approximately 2 billion people believe this account. 

My point is not to argue that Jesus actually rose from the dead (I personally believe that he did).  My point is that Hume’s statement should be modifed to read:  “In the universal experience of the human race miracles do not occur if one rejects a priori all of the accounts of miracles that we have.”  Again, this argument is quite circular, because Hume assumed a priori the very conclusion he wished to demonstrate.   

Again, while I personally believe that miracles occur, my personal belief is quite beside the point.  My point is that those who assert that miracles do not occur usually believe they are speaking with the authority of science.  Popper says not so.  The statement “miracles do not occur” is just as metaphysical as the statement “miracles occur.” 

Comments
evo_materialist: Help me understand. You say: "In any event, you misunderstand me. My reasoning is not circular but inductive. To wit: I have not experienced miracles. Nobody I know has experienced miracles. As far as I can tell, all stories of the miraculous either crumble under close investigation or are set in the distant past and therefore not subject to close investigation. My disbelief in miracles is akin to my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow (and yes, it doesn’t really “rise”): I don’t know for certain that it will happen, but to put stock in the alternative would be silly." In my view, the best you can say is that you do not *believe* in miracles and that in your *personal* experience they don't happen. You certainly can't prove they don't happen and so to claim that you have a scientific position that they don't exist is illogical. The intellectually honest position would be more of a position of agnosticism. Anything else exceeds what you actually know. It's kind of like the Darwinist that assumes that life came from undirected, random chance events without having any verifiable idea regarding how the first life forms came into existence. Like your position on miracles, it *feels* more scientific but in fact isn't. Those that say there are no miracles are stating a philosophical position, not a scientific one. Those that express certainty that life arose via undirected, random mechanisms without *any* proof are also taking a philosophical position (materialism). Don't be afraid to take an agnostic position on matters such as these. It keeps you from taking positions that exceed your actual knowledge.mtreat@tx.rr.com
April 25, 2008
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To look a little further at Hume's critique of miracles: 1. Hume first writes that miracles are a violation of the laws of nature. What he really means is "Miracles are impossible because they are miraculous!" This is circular reasoning (as pointed out by BarryA). Educated people today are less prepared than Hume was to insist that the familiar laws of nature hold true everywhere and at all times. Scientists speculate on whether there are additional dimensions in the universe. 2. Hume then goes on to state that people are easily fooled, and that some people want to believe in miracles and marvels especially where religion is concerned. It was pointed out that many 'faith healing'-type miracles are fraudulent. However, consider that counterfeit money can be passed from bank to consumer, but that does not mean that all money is fake. Artists may forge 'old master' paintings but that does not mean that all paintings are fakes. Thus, the fact that some claimed miracles may well be fakes does not preclude thinking that genuine miracles can never happen. 3. Hume stated that such events "never happen in our time." Hume reasoned that he had never seen a miracle, so he refused to believe that they could happen. This is an argument from ignorance. Imagine if we could travel back in time and explain things such as jets, the space shuttle, the Hubble Telescope, television, and radio to David Hume. Such 'prodigious events' (to use Hume's term) do happen, because man is using scientific principles of which Hume had no concept to construct televisions, transistors, internal combustion engines, and vehicles capable of traveling through space. Is it so hard to believe that on occasion in the past God could have accomplished (in ways we don't fully understand) things that to us are miraculous?Barb
April 25, 2008
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Miracles are more an addition to laws rather than "intervention". See also Miracles and Science.Jonathan Sarfati
April 25, 2008
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-----johnnyb: "I think this is the heart of the issue - materialists view the material world as being everything - and therefore specifically the mind is a material item in the world. But if instead the mind was a spiritual/creative force instead of a physical one, then there is no reason to draw a distinction between a natural intelligent agent and a supernatural one, except perhaps in scope, extent, and ability, at least for the purposes of being an intelligence." -----mentok: "The mind is supernatural in the sense that it is not comprised of 3 dimensional matter/energy. What is the mind then? It is a silent voice which we perceive to be located in our head and which most people identify as being them or under their control. Netheir which is true." In my judgment, these two points by johnnyb and mentok constitute the proper response to the misguided notion of "natural intelligence" being preferred over "supernatural intelligence." For purposes of ID, we should not even consider such formulations as "natural intelligence" or "supernatural intelligence." We should be speaking in terms of human intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and divine intelligence. The term “natural” is synonymous law and chance and nothing else. To speak of natural intelligence or supernatural intelligence is to conflate the idea of intelligent agency with physical laws and contingency. In fact, "natural intelligence" is an oxymoron. We should stop using it because it confuses the issue. To me, a miracle is a suspension of the laws of nature. I don't equate that with ID.StephenB
April 25, 2008
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And when an atheist man with brain cancer has an epiphany in which he is called to become a Christian,... William, those are truly wonderful events, and I am encouraged everytime I hear about it. However, it is hard to know whether to qualify them as miracles. In order to maintain someones confidentiality, I won't divulge the name, but there is a famous athiest often mentioned on this blog who had a brain tumor. This athiest was cured of it, yet, still disavows God. Is it a miracle that this person no longer has the tumor, or was it medicine? One can't really quanitify it. For every person who claimed it was a miracle that their spouse did not go into the WTC or their flight on 9/11 that morning, there are 3000 others that did. I'm not certain we can call it a miracle that someones train was late that morning. If in fact miracles do happen today, I would say they are just as rare today as it was back in the Old Testament. Think about Joseph's life: he saw what might be considered maybe 5 miracles in about 100 years! And, this is a special guy who actually made it into the book of Genesis. Nor am I sure they can really be detected as going against natural law, as in Psalm 77:7 Your path led through the sea, your way through the mighty waters, though your footprints were not seen notice how the author gives credit to God, but acknowledges that his footprints could not be seen. So, if we do see a miracle, we may not be able to discern it from natural events. I think the quantum theory, while interesting, is still just speculation like Newton's orbits. We just haven't figured out how it works.TomRiddle
April 25, 2008
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evo asks: "Where have I made such a statement [about the non-existence of miracles] that claimed to be universally true? I defy you to find it." In comment 2 you state that you are as certain that miracles do not occur as you are that the sun will rise tomorrow. If that's not an assertion of a universal truth, I don't know what is.BarryA
April 25, 2008
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There is no such thing as natural intelligence if by "natural" you mean things which can be weighed, measured, and observed. Intelligence is outside of 3 dimensional matter/energy. Intelligence is not a particle/wave, it is not a quantum anything, it is not an atom or a molecule or an element. Intelligence is a property of a mind, it is an abstract experience rather then a physical reality. The mind is supernatural in the sense that it is not comprised of 3 dimensional matter/energy. What is the mind then? It is a silent voice which we perceive to be located in our head and which most people identify as being them or under their control. Netheir which is true.mentok
April 25, 2008
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The term "miracle" is problematic. If "miracle" means "violates the laws of nature as they truly are" then we can never tell whether something is actually a miracle or not until we fully understand all the laws of nature (which we don't). If "miracle" means "violates the laws of nature as we believe them to be" then all sorts of things we know to be true are miracles -- like the Mpemba effect to us, or the function of an airplane to a child who doesn't understand how this "magic" thing works. Miracles are just a function of our ignorance -- and are SUBJECTIVE in nature. Either way, the term "miracle" doesn't have any particularly profound significance. Under one definition, we never know whether it's a miracle or not. In the other definition, it's only a miracle because we don't understand it. The real question is not whether something is a "miracle," but whether it actually happened or not. If it didn't happen, then it's not a miracle, but a fiction. If it did happen, then the real problem is not the "miracle," but our inadequate understanding of the laws of nature, which permitted it to occur.ungtss
April 25, 2008
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DLH I was about to respond the same way. An airplane of any sort does not defy the laws of nature. They simply use a combination of physical laws (thrust, lift, etc.) to lessen the effect of other (e.g. gravity).thelonliestmonk
April 25, 2008
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bornagain77, welcome back! You've been gone too long. In a previous discussion, bFast referred to "miracles of timing — natural enough events with a precision that is precious." Your return seems like one of those, except I bet there's a natural explanation.evo_materialist
April 25, 2008
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Most miracles I've seen or heard of COULD have been natural events... very unlikely ones at REALLY convenient times. The slap-you-in-the-face-from-impossibility type, I've not seen myself, though I believe in them.Foxfier
April 25, 2008
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And then of course there is the "Ultimate" miracle. Examining the Shroud The Shroud of Turin, the piece of cloth that is alleged to be the burial garment of Christ, is one of the most widely studied relics in the entire world. Scientists from 67 different academic studies ... more >> The Shroud of Turin, the piece of cloth that is alleged to be the burial garment of Christ, is one of the most widely studied relics in the entire world. Scientists from 67 different academic studies have examined the shroud, attempting to see if it is indeed genuine and if it could reveal further clues about Christ himself. http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=adf65138cee2fe9a4169&page=5&viewtype=&category=bornagain77
April 25, 2008
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BarryA, you say that I "made a statement of supposed universal truth based on inductive reasoning." Where have I made such a statement that claimed to be universally true? I defy you to find it.evo_materialist
April 25, 2008
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“…the total number of events that happen to us is about thirty thousand per day, or about a million per month. …The chance of a miracle is about one per million events. Therefore we should expect about one miracle to happen, on the average, every month.” - Freeman Dyson This is a straw-man of Christian theism. God is neither a cuckoo-clock that pops out a miracle regularly at the appointed time, and neither does he role the dice and fire off a miracle every time he rolls a "7". A miracle is an event done by Him to make a point and/or to support the revelation He gave through a prophet. With the cessation of special revelation, there is no need for a miracle. Thus, one cannot quantify the probability of a miracle.Saint and Sinner
April 25, 2008
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I think the point of BarryA's post is that we should regard the statement: "Pardon me for disagreeing Barry, but humans are natural entities. It does not violate methodological naturalism to say that a human designed something. In fact, I think natural intelligences are to be preferred above supernatural intelligences in design detection, for the simple reason that we have experience with the former, but not the latter." is contrived. Whether something was designed and whether it was supernatural should be two seperate questions. The questions: 1. "Is this thing designed?" should be determined using the normal methods of design detection. [i.e. Does it have all the hallmarks of design, etc.] 2. "Is the designer supernatural?" should be a completely seperate question and should not affect 1. To use an analogy, if I discover a machine in the desert replete with gears, engine, etc., I would conclude that it's designed. Now of course, in a possible world that includes the supernatural, that designer could be supernatural, but I would still conclude that the machine was designed regardless of who designed it. To eliminate possibility of a supernatural designer a priori is to DEFINE the materialist position to be correct. Of course, whether the design inference is a valid method is another completely seperate question.Saint and Sinner
April 25, 2008
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I agree with Johnny B in 15. For unless the facts force us, why create an artificial distinction between divine design and human design. Isn’t it all design? Biblically man is in the image of God—surely this means something. If the cell is composed only of the chemical elements (which I doubt), then surely the day will come when human technology will create one. Build a theory of creation based on classical theology and contrast it with one based on human technology (which is evolutionary): which fits the observable facts best? Isn't the ‘principle of causality’ as described above contradicted by quantum mechanics? We can imagine, as the ID folks have reminded us, three types of explanation (along with their combinations): chance, necessity, and design. Heading into the 20th century the physicists were quite certain that only necessity was necessary (thus the ‘principle of causality’), whereas meanwhile the Darwinists proceded along blithely and ironically as “chance worshippers”. At mid century Jacques Monod ordered us to consider both Chance and Necessity—but absolutely NOT design, and this is the one-party regime the ID wedge proposes to split. As for miracles, how is it possible that the impossible happens? If it happens it’s not impossible! If you mean that the deity’s technology far surpasses ours and even operates above the level of contingent physical law, then miracles remain a logical possibility. But as Paul Davies is fond of reminding theists, even God cannot violate logic (can any of y’all quote him on this?). I’m bothered by the TE insistance that the deity is so alien that there’s no way we could see his hand. How do they know this? Why not just call a spade a spade and let design be design?Rude
April 25, 2008
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As far as I can tell, all stories of the miraculous either crumble under close investigation or are set in the distant past and therefore not subject to close investigation
And when an atheist man with brain cancer has an epiphany in which he is called to become a Christian, as well as to share the good news with his children, and so he does, and soon thereafter the brain cancer is undetectable, the materialist who rules out supernatural causes faithfully declares "misdiagnoses" of the cancer and "hallucination" on the epiphany.William Wallace
April 25, 2008
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Some have asked why I believe Popper’s “Logic” has the force of law in the United States. See McLean v. Arkansas Bd. of Ed., 529 F.Supp. 1255, 1267 (E.D.Ark. 1982). McLean was an Establishment Clause case in which the court adopted Popper’s falsification line of demarcation between science and non-science as follows: Begin quote: More precisely, the essential characteristics of science are: (1) It is guided by natural law; (2) It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law; (3) It is testable against the empirical world; (4) Its conclusions are tentative, i.e., are not necessarily the final word; and (5) It is falsifiable. End quote Thus my conclusion that Popper’s line of demarcation has the force of law.BarryA
April 25, 2008
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evo-materialist: "JPCollado, I wonder how that pastor knew about that woman’s cancer? Hmm.." A few points: 1 - she was not a pastor but a member of an evangelistic team where she played the role of worship leader/singer 2 - this experience caught her by surprise since this is not what was expected of her and/or something that she was known to do 3 - these types of revelations were rare in the church I used to go to, but did manifest whenever there was a special need, it seemed 4 - the girl with the cancer was in her twenties and received the diagnosis from her doctor in the very same week that the evangelistic campaign was being conducted 5 - the cancer victim had not revealed it to anyone outside her immediate family for obvious reasons 6 - the people at the church were honorable down-to-earth people who don't take such things very lightly 7 - I've experienced this sort of extra-ordinary knowledge myself, maybe half a dozen times in my life - the most spectacular while in the Army during Intermediate Training (when Noriega was still in power. Hint. Hint.)JPCollado
April 25, 2008
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Jets evolved. From a junkyard. A random tornado put the first one together.tribune7
April 25, 2008
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allanius 17 As an engineer, having studied jets, and ridden in them, you are spouting nonsense.DLH
April 25, 2008
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Plus I've seen what I consider to be a profound miracle in my life. Alfs Miracle This is one of my favorite miracles that I've seen so far in my life. In March of 1989, I was living in Lancaster, California. This was right after I had gotten out of the military, and right after the Lord had revealed the fact that He is real to me. I was staying in a house, renting a room. One evening, one of my housemates, who happened to be a Christian also, confided in me that he was depressed. He told me he had been depressed for a long time, and did not know if he would ever get better. Well, since I was a brand new Christian, I got excited. I saw an opportunity for God to move. In the unrestrained enthusiasm of a man who has finally seen the light that God is indeed real, I told him, "Hey man! This is something we can pray about". So we bowed our heads and prayed for his depression. Shoot, we prayed for all the people who are suffering from depression in the whole world. We prayed that God would touch everyone that instant. We prayed as we thought the Bible would have us pray. "Well", he said to me, after we finished praying, "I don't feel any different". Right after that, on television, on the Christian Station, TBN, there was a group talking. One of the ladies in the group said "Excuse me, if you don't mind, but I really feel that we need to pray for depression at this very moment"; They joined their hands, began praying for depression, asking Jesus to touch and heal everyone. Then, after they finished praying, my friend tells me that he still feels depressed. Well, sensing that God was up to something, I wasn’t about to let this go, So trying the best I could, in my own way, to cheer him up, I then started to sing, dance and clown around, trying to cheer my friend up. I was singing, dancing and clowning around to the children’s song "What makes that little old ant think he can move that rubber tree plant .... He’s got high hopes, He’s got high apple pie in the sky hopes...." "Well", my friend said, after I was all done with my clowning around, "I still don't feel any different". Then I said, “Well, maybe a comedy on television will cheer you up". I switched the channel to one of the major networks, and ALF was on. A few seconds after we started watching ALF, ALF started to sing and dance to that same exact song I had just finished singing. You see, ALF had an ant farm and he loved that ant farm. BUT sadly, he had left his ant farm on the windowsill, in the sun, and ally kills his ants. ALF was stunned by his mistake and started weeping. He said he had never been so depressed; and, he didn't think he would ever get over his ants. Then the father figure, on the T.V. show, comes in and sees ALF weeping. He said " ALF I know that you're depressed; I know you think this can never get any better; BUT, tomorrow is going to be a little better; the day after that will be a little better; the day after that a little better, and when it is all said and done, everything is going to be...BETTER! Well, both my friend and I were completely amazed. I even ended up going down the street that evening, stopping complete strangers on the street, trying to tell them I had just seen a miracle, on the T.V. show ALF, with ants and singing and dancing. One of the strangers tried to assure me that he believed me, but I still wonder if he was just placating me as I related some of the “strange” singing and dancing parts of the miracle to him. The best thing about the whole situation was three days later when my friend came up to me and said, "MAN, I FEEL GOOD, I don't remember the last time I've felt this good." And that my friends is the end of my Alf Miracle story. God does indeed move in mysterious ways.bornagain77
April 25, 2008
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I think Quantum Mechanics reveals the "miraculous" foundation upon which God has built our reality. For though Quantum events obey strict probabilistic rules that gives them a coherent structure in our reality, this does not detract, in any way, that the events are supernatural events in the first place, indeed they are blatantly defying our concepts of time and space every time we observe them happening in experiment. (Just pull out your double-slit to view a miracle!) Most people I know consider defying time and space to be a "miraculous" event. If I disappeared then instantaneously reappeared a short distance away, would you not consider this a miracle of the first order? Why then should quantum events be denied the respect of a bonafide miraculous event from us just because that "miraculous way" is the way they "always" operate? Here are Some of the "miraculous" actions of the electron: The Electron; :performs something called a quantum leap, which means it disappears from one spot; then, instantaneously appears at another spot without traversing the space in between. :sometimes "blinks off" which means, for a short time, it just disappears before reappearing. :has actually never been seen; only the effects of an electron have been witnessed. :acts like a particle sometimes; sometimes, like a wave, depending on how we look at it. The electron acts like it knows how we were going to look at it before we actually look at it. :has been proven by quantum non-locality to have the ability to instantaneously communicate its state of being anywhere in the universe. This ability defies the speed of light, thus making the communication transcendent of any physical means, and also gives scientists the spooky impression that the electron may somehow be aware of everything that is going on everywhere in the universe. Mark 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.” In fact, the only way these things are rational, for us in this universe to any coherent degree, is if in fact the foundational "particles" of our reality have their ultimate basis in a "higher" dimension. This is especially true when compared to the dis-coherence that the many worlds interpretation offers us instead. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1908806037885379788&q=Dr+Quantum+-+Flatland&total=35&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1bornagain77
April 25, 2008
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Just for a second, imagine ... Imagine if nobody in the history of the world ever thought of a god or the supernatural. Imagine that everyone assumed that materialism was all that existed, and nobody even had a single thought otherwise. Intelligence, then, would just be regarded as another material commodity; intelligent design would be just the use of that commodity by material entities or forces. In such a scenario, would biologists looking at the nano-technology of the cell hypothesize that perhaps intelligent design might be involved? Would they say, "hmm, looks like it would require intelligence to design at least some of this"? Why not? In this hypothetical scenario, they don't have to fear that anyone would construe that intelligence as "god" or some other supernatural agent. What the preference for "material" intelligent agents boils down to is simply fear on the part of materialists that someone is going to infer something supernatural out of the evidence - much like they do with NDE's and evidence for the paranormal. One wonders what they are so afraid of. It's not like science based on assumption of the existence of the supernatural didn't flourish for hundreds of years before the materialists took over.William J. Murray
April 25, 2008
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I am sure that many who post here already have, but for those who have not, I highly recommend "Miracles" by C.S. Lewis.Jack Golightly
April 25, 2008
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As one example, apparitions are fairly numerous. Just one example is in Zeitun, Egypt, in 1968 - 1971, at the church on the site where Mary, Joseph, and baby Jesus found refuge from Herod for a period of time, according to legend. A glowing woman, believed by many to be Mary the mother of Jesus (Virgin Mary) was witnessed and observed by thousands. The witnesses included Moslems and non-believers with no desire to "imagine" or "create" the vision. In fact, the apparition was first seen by a Moslem worker. See the photo: http://www.apparitions.org/zeitun.html I am not sure what natural explanation can be provided by the Materialist, but I would be interested. One other suggestion: The Sanctified Body, by Patricia Treece. She provides solid evidence for a number of what we would consider supernatural events and conditions. http://www.amazon.com/Sanctified-Body-Patricia-Treece/dp/0385262299/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209151430&sr=8-1Ekstasis
April 25, 2008
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In a prior post EJ wrote: “I think natural intelligences are to be preferred above supernatural intelligences in design detection, for the simple reason that we have experience with the former, but not the latter.”
OK, but if we only have the object/ structure/ event that we are investigating to go by, how can we tell the difference between the two?Joseph
April 25, 2008
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JPCollado, I wonder how that pastor knew about that woman's cancer? Hmm..evo_materialist
April 25, 2008
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The majority of the comments so far miss the point of the post. The point of the post is NOT to argue that miracles occur. The point of the post is that the statement “miracles do not occur” is not a scientific statement. It is a metaphysical statement. Those who disbelieve in miracles frequently attempt to cloak their metaphysical prejudices with the mantle of scientific authority. They should not.BarryA
April 25, 2008
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TomRiddle:
Miracles assume that God steps into the natural world and intervenes. Thats fine. However, I think people should not be so quick to assume this happens in our our lifetime. Maybe one in a 100 years?
My experience is of having experienced dozens of miracles personally. I must be really old.bFast
April 25, 2008
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25
25
2008
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

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