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More Astonishing Things Materialists Say

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In response to my last post, Sev gives us an astonishing double down:

Yes, a microscopic living cell is immensely complex when you look at it closely but comparing one to a factory based on some similarities in the internal processes is an analogy not necessarily evidence of design. To judge the value of an analogy you should also consider the differences. For example, a human factory is vastly larger than a living cell. It’s also made of refined metals, plastics and glass which you don’t find in the cell. Judged by those attributes of known design, the cell is not designed.

OK, lets consider the differences that you point out.

1.  Cells are smaller than factories.  Sev, you didn’t think this one through.  Think of the original computers.  They were the size of a room and less powerful than today’s handheld smart phone.  So which is the more sophisticated design, UNIVAC or my Galaxy Edge 7?  The inference from miniaturization goes in the opposite direction you seem to think it does.  Even the simplest cell is a marvel of nano-technology.  The “nano” part of that phrase increases the confidence we can have in the design inference.

2.  Cells are made from different materials.  So?  Mount Rushmore is a designed object that uses stone as a material.  The computer I am typing this on is a designed object made of metal, plastic and silicon.  The messages Craig Venter encoded in DNA were designed objects using DNA as the medium.  The design inference is based on an analysis of whether the object is characterized by specified complexity, not the material of which it is made.

 

Comments
Bob O'H:
Harry: ... since intelligence is a known reality, why it can’t be considered among the possible causal factors in the emergence of life.
I think it could be if there were any evidence specifically for the existence of intelligence during that time.
You have it backwards. The nano-technology in life is the evidence for the existence of intelligence. If SETI observes a certain radio signal then this radio signal is evidence for extraterrestrial intelligence. You do not tell SETI "it could be if there were any evidence specifically for the existence of intelligence during that time."Origenes
April 12, 2017
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BobO'H: Do you not see that you are refusing to accept ain inference tot he best, empirically anchored -- and known -- explanation of FSCO/I? Not to mention, algorithmically functional coded information -- text and language? That speaks, volumes on how evidence in front of us suddenly is transmuted into no evidence, as it will not sit comfortably with a given a priori, materialistic ideology. I think we test our ideas by the evidence and not whether we will allow it to be reckoned as evidence by our ideas. KFkairosfocus
April 12, 2017
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Bob O'H @6,
I further invite them to explain, since intelligence is a known reality, why it can’t be considered among the possible causal factors in the emergence of life. -- Harry I think it could be if there were any evidence specifically for the existence of intelligence during that time. As it is, the only evidence I am aware of is writings from billions of years later, and the evidence that they use is sketchy, to say the least. -- Bob O'H
If the landscape looked marked with water erosion on a waterless, barren planet, one would assume that water had once existed on that planet. In the same way, when we see effects only known to be brought about by intelligence -- like digital information-based functional complexity -- that is evidence specifically for the existence of intelligence.harry
April 12, 2017
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harry -
I invite all the atheists here to explain how the machinery by which the cell translates the code could have had its own assembly instructions encoded in the DNA mindlessly and accidentally.
My simple answer is that I don't know. You would do better to ask that of a scientist who studies OOL, whatever their religious views.
I further invite them to explain, since intelligence is a known reality, why it can’t be considered among the possible causal factors in the emergence of life.
I think it could be if there were any evidence specifically for the existence of intelligence during that time. As it is, the only evidence I am aware of is writings from billions of years later, and the evidence that they use is sketchy, to say the least.Bob O'H
April 12, 2017
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Karl Popper describes what he saw as an insurmountable problem for origin of life theorists:
What makes the origin of life and of the genetic code a disturbing riddle is this: the genetic code is without any biological function unless it is translated; that is, unless it leads to the synthesis of the proteins whose structure is laid down by the code. But … the machinery by which the cell (at least the non-primitive cell, which is the only one we know) translates the code consists of at least fifty macromolecular components which are themselves coded in the DNA. Thus the code cannot be translated except by using certain products of its translation. This constitutes a baffling circle; a really vicious circle, it seems, for any attempt to form a model or theory of the genesis of the genetic code. Thus we may be faced with the possibility that the origin of life (like the origin of physics) becomes an impenetrable barrier to science, and a residue to all attempts to reduce biology to chemistry and physics.
Popper didn't consider the fact that there was no problem at all if intelligent agency was included among the causal factors in the emergence of life. I invite all the atheists here to explain how the machinery by which the cell translates the code could have had its own assembly instructions encoded in the DNA mindlessly and accidentally. I further invite them to explain, since intelligence is a known reality, why it can't be considered among the possible causal factors in the emergence of life. Intellectually honest, relentlessly objective, genuine science must admit that currently, intelligence agency must be included among the causal factors in the emergence of life simply because there is no plausible explanation for its emergence without doing so, not to mention the fact that there are no known instances of digital information-based, significant functional complexity coming about mindlessly and accidentally. Such phenomena are always the result of intelligent agency. Genuine science doesn't have to know the identity of the intelligent agent to know that intelligent agency was a causal factor in some phenomenon coming about. Science admitting the necessary involvement of an intelligent agent in the emergence of life isn't proclaiming belief in the God of the Christians and Jews, it is only remaining intellectually honest, relentlessly objective, genuine science. Contemporary science perverted by atheism treats the origin of life in manner that is as absurd as insisting that an extraterrestrial, unmanned (un-aliened) drone that had landed on planet Earth was really just an extremely strange meteorite simply because they didn't like the thought of other intelligent agents existing anywhere else in the Universe. That would be ridiculous. So is science perverted by atheism when it comes to the origin of life.harry
April 12, 2017
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[The following is something that I wrote before, on another thread, which is worth is repeating here.] The origin of life is like the origin of the universe. It appears to be a singular, non-repeating, highly improbable event which occurred very early in earth’s history. Furthermore all the clues of how and why it occurred have been lost. But then added to that problem are other problems: how does chemistry create code? What is required to create an autonomously self-replicating system which has the possibility of evolving into something more complex? The naturalist/ materialist then compounds the problem by demanding a priori that the origin of life must be completely natural-- undirected without an intelligent plan or purpose. That does seems like it was a miracle… Well, maybe it was. One of my pipe dreams as a real life (now retired) machine designer is to design a self-replicating machine or automata-- the kind that was first envisioned by mathematician John von Neumann. My vision is not a machine that could replicate itself from already existing parts but a machine-- well actually machines-- which could replicate themselves from raw material they would find on a rocky planet in some distant star system. One practical advantage of such machines is they could be sent out in advance some far-in-the-distant-future expedition to terraform a suitable planet in another star system preparing it for colonist who might arrive centuries or millennia later. By analogy, this is what the first living cells which originated on the early earth had to do. Even the simplest prokaryote cell is on the sub-cellular level a collection of machines networked together to replicate the whole system. To suggest that somehow the first cell emerged by some fortuitous accident is betray an ignorance how really complex primitive cells are. Try thinking this through on a more macro level, as I have described above, and I think you will begin to appreciate how really daunting the problem is.john_a_designer
April 12, 2017
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Who says what inference *should* be drawn from that? I draw a different inference from the one you do. Until we can definitely show either how OOL occurred, or that it is not possible, I don't see how we can say for definite which inference is correct.Bob O'H
April 12, 2017
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Bob @ 1: "One problem with using the space station as an analogy is that space stations don’t reproduce, whereas living things do." Yes, Bob that is an important difference. Our most sophisticated technology is not even close to being able to create a von Neumann self-replicator. But you don't seem to understand the inference that should be drawn from that fact.Barry Arrington
April 12, 2017
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The design inference is based on an analysis of whether the object is characterized by specified complexity, not the material of which it is made.
This is not that dissimilar to the part of Seversky's comment that you omitted:
We recognize design only where it looks something like that we might design and because we don’t observe anything like it occurring through natural processes.
(if one accepts the claim that specified complexity isn't observed in anything occurring through natural processes) I think the issue is to decide what are the relevant similarities, i.e. what aspects of the specification should be used. Seversky's point (I think - he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that this decision is important, and if the wrong decisions are made, you can come to the wrong answer. One problem with using the space station as an analogy is that space stations don't reproduce, whereas living things do. So perhaps reproduction could be an important difference ...?Bob O'H
April 12, 2017
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