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More on Emergent Poofery

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This morning I looked up into the sky and saw several hundred geese flying in a formation that appeared to be a single undulating mass. It reminded me of the schools of silver fish I have seen while diving in the Caribbean that also seem to move as a single mass (those who have seen Finding Nemo know what I am talking about).

These bird and fish behaviors along with hurricanes are often used by materialists to demonstrate the idea of “emergence.” When the “whole” of a given phenomenon appears to have properties that are more complex than its constituents, the whole is said to be an “emergent property” of the constituents. With that in mind, here is a question:

Which of these things is not like the others with respect to “emergence”?

A. A flock of birds
B. A hurricane
C. A school of fish
D. Subjective self-awareness

If you picked “D. Consciousness” give yourself a star. The standard emergentist view of consciousness goes like this: The electro-chemical processes in the brain evolve in complexity, and at some unspecified point in that evolution consciousness arises. Thus mental events “supervene” on physical events, which means that subjective self-awareness is an “emergent property of” the sophisticated electro-chemical system in the brains of higher animals.

Why is this emergentist account obviously different in principal than emergentist accounts of flocks of birds, hurricanes and schools of fish? The answer lies with our old friend vera causa, also known as the principle of sufficient reason. Under this principle, you can’t just say X causes Y unless you are prepared to demonstrate the causal link between X and Y. Astrology is a classic example of the violation of this principle. An astrologer says the stars and planets are aligned in a particular way, and that alignment causes X phenomenon (e.g., you will get a promotion at work). Of course, there is absolutely no causal relationship whatsoever between the alignment of stars and planets and whether your boss is going to promote you, and therefore astrology violates the principle of sufficient reason.

How does the emergent “explanation” of subjective self-awareness violate the principle of sufficient reason? For any given proposition, the principle is expressed this way:

For every proposition P, if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.

We can see how this principle is in operation with respect to birds, fish and wind:

Birds: Birds instinctively fly in formation; when those formations are sufficiently large the birds move in response to various inputs, including primarily the strength of the wind, and collectively those movements result in the phenomenon. We might not know all of the details, but we can see how in principle the movement of the birds could result in the formation.

Fish: Same as birds.

Hurricane: Hurricanes are examples of weather, and we have a fairly good understanding of the causes of weather, including temperature, barometric pressure, etc. We can see how, in principle, those factors can combine to cause the phenomenon called a hurricane.

Conversely, we can see how the principle is not in operation with respect to subjective self-awareness. As Thomas Nagel has said the “mental” is fundamentally different from the “physical.” The burden is therefore on those advancing an emergentist theory of consciousness to explain how “physical” events can cause “mental” events. So far, no one has brought forth even plausible speculations about how this could happen. This is not surprising because it should be clear that the mental is not in fact reducible to the physical, which means that reductionist accounts of consciousness are not, in principle, plausible.

For every proposition P [consciousness is an “emergent property” of the brain system] , if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.  Until materialists come up with a sufficient explanation for why the mental can, in principle, be linked causally with the physical, the “emergent property” explanation is more like astrology than astronomy.  While it purports to be an explanation, it in fact gives no reason to believe why X causes Y.  It is a confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation, a fancy of way of saying nothing but “Poof! It happened.”

 

 

 

 

Comments
keith s still thinks his strawman is a refutation of an immaterial soul. Par for the course but still bonkersJoe
November 20, 2014
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Just because you refuse to accept falsification for you split brain article does not mean that it is not refuted: Do split-brain cases disprove the existence of an immaterial soul? (Part Two) Dr. VJ Torley - July 20, 2013 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/do-split-brain-cases-disprove-the-existence-of-an-immaterial-soul-part-two/ Man born without connection between two halves of brain functions normally— at 88 https://uncommondescent.com/neuroscience/man-born-without-connection-between-two-halves-of-brain-functions-normally-at-88/#comment-513076 Here is a first person account of the split-brain experiment in which the person in the experiment testifies to being 'one' person although his actions were split: Excerpt: BTW, with regards to your citation of the split-brain experiments (and people who suffer from that due to injury, etc). I was involved in one of those split-brain experiments myself. (Which is possible by temporarily numbing the corpus callosum.) And believe me, it was the damnedest thing. The thing is, even though different parts of my brain were acting as if they had no knowledge of “each other”, behind it all was still “me”, consciously experiencing the strange disconnection. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/holy-rollers-pascals-wager-if-id-is-wrong-it-was-an-honest-mistake/#comment-460565 The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Mind is able to modify the brain. Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism does not explain mind.bornagain77
November 20, 2014
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The fact that we have a eternal soul that lives beyond the death of our temporal body is far more well established than any purported proof for Neo-Darwinism is.
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
Even Dr. Parnia, perhaps the most sceptical researcher in Near Death studies, has finally come around and admitted that they are 'very credible'
Life after death? Largest-ever study provides evidence that 'out of body' and 'near-death' experiences may be real - October 7, 2014 Excerpt: Dr Sam Parnia, an assistant professor at the State University of New York and a former research fellow at the University of Southampton who led the research, said that he previously (held) that patients who described near-death experiences were only relating hallucinatory events. One man, however, gave a “very credible” account of what was going on while doctors and nurses tried to bring him back to life – and says that he felt he was observing his resuscitation from the corner of the room. Speaking to The Telegraph about the evidence provided by a 57-year-old social worker Southampton, Dr Parnia said: “We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating. “But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes. “The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for. “He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largestever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-neardeath-experiences-may-actually-be-real-9780195.html
In fact the experiences related by Near Death Experiences are 'even more real than real':
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html Dr. Eben Alexander Says It's Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten - 10/24/2013 Excerpt: To take the approach of, "Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain" is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it's an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.html
One of the more fascinating branches of Near Death Studies have been the studies of people who were born blind who have had NDE’s, who could see for the first time in their life during their NDE. This simply has no explanation within the materialistic framework, whereas, in the theistic framework, this is expected:
Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKyQJDZuMHE Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1997-16-101-147-1.pdf
This following video interview of a Harvard Neurosurgeon, who had a Near Death Experience (NDE), is very interesting. His NDE was rather unique from typical NDEs in that he had completely lost brain wave function for 7 days while the rest of his body was on life support. As such he had what can be termed a ‘pure consciousness’ NDE that was dramatically different from the ‘typical’ Judeo-Christian NDEs of going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension, seeing departed relatives, and having a life review. His NDE featured his ‘consciousness’ going outside the confines of space/time, matter/energy altogether to experience ‘non-locally’ what he termed ‘the Core’, i.e to experience God. It is also interesting to note that he retained a ‘finite sense of self-identity’, as Theism would hold, and did not blend into the infinite consciousness/omniscience of God, as pantheism would hold.
A Conversation with Near Death Experiencer Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander III, M.D. with Steve Paulson (Interviewer) - video http://www.btci.org/bioethics/2012/videos2012/vid3.html
bornagain77
November 20, 2014
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Silver Asiatic,
What is fiction for the goose is fiction for the gander. Right?
No, because the evidence is overwhelmingly against the hypothesis of an immaterial soul, as I point out in my OP.keith s
November 20, 2014
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Keith
The immaterial soul is a fiction.
What is fiction for the goose is fiction for the gander. Right?Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2014
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Seeing that materialistic processes can't even account for the brain we can tell that it cannot account for consciousness.Joe
November 20, 2014
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As such, the burden of proof is on ID to provide evidence and mechanisms for a non material cause of consciousness.
Show us the direct material evidence of a non-material cause. Wait a minute ... you're supposed to try to make sense here.Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2014
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adapa, gmilling, ks etc . . . Yelling "dogpile!" is no longer an acceptable form of argument. "inseperable" says nothing about "how it emerges" gmilling, your burden of proof is wrongly presented, have you forgotten this already?
As Thomas Nagel has said the “mental” is fundamentally different from the “physical.” The burden is therefore on those advancing an emergentist theory of consciousness to explain how “physical” events can cause “mental” events. So far, no one has brought forth even plausible speculations about how this could happen.
adapa, we refrain from showing what "we got" because after having done so innumerable times, all we here is "that's not science." big deal. Nobody in the ID is required to think within your narrowly defined scientism.Tim
November 20, 2014
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gmilling, That's right. We don't yet have a satisfactory explanation of how consciousness arises from the physical brain, but the fact that it is inseparable from the physical brain is well established. The immaterial soul is a fiction. I did a relevant post at TSZ: Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul And that's just the split-brain evidence. There's plenty of other evidence as well.keith s
November 20, 2014
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As Keiths mentioned, we do not have a complete explanation of consciousness by materialist properties. However, we do know of many purely materialist actions that can destroy or suspend consciousness. And they all involve actions on the brain. As such, the burden of proof is on ID to provide evidence and mechanisms for a non material cause of consciousness.gmilling
November 20, 2014
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Silver Asiatic By the way, an unbiased investigation is conducted by the seeker. You have to look for yourself. Then go do it SA. Go investigate all you want, bring back any positive results you may find and we'll discuss them. What's stopping you? Don't sit on the sidelines crying to be let in the game and them cowardly disappear when the coach taps you on the shoulder and says "get in there and show us what ya got."Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Box Adapa, you are a cartoon version of the typical materialist. You're an actual version of the typical ID creationist - willfully ignorant, all empty rhetoric but no positive evidence to show, demanding to have the supernatural introduced to science but completely unable to say how that should occur.Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Box
Adapa, you are a cartoon version of the typical materialist.
Keith is at least open to possibilities. I suggested an unbiased investigation of both options, material and immaterial. Adapa responds by saying "ok show me the materialist proof of the immaterial". That is cartoonish. By the way, an unbiased investigation is conducted by the seeker. You have to look for yourself. Adapa instead says "ok, let me sit back while you show me what you got - then I'll ridicule with absurd non-sequiturs". Obviously, there's no interest in really trying to explore what reality has to offer. Usually that's driven by fear of what one might find. My conclusion - not worth trying to dialogue with someone like that.Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2014
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Since we know the entire material universe came into being approx. 13.8 billion years ago,,,
Evidence For The Big Bang – Michael Strauss – video https://vimeo.com/91775973 Evidence Supporting the Big Bang http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/s7.htm
,,,then the cumulative case from both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, for consciousness preceding material reality, is far, far, stronger than the cumulative case for some imaginary material reality preceding the material universe is:
A Short History Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
bornagain77
November 20, 2014
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KeithS @ 8
There is no satisfactory “immaterialist” account of consciouness either. .... What’s poof for the goose is poof for the gander.
You're getting it Keith! Both sides have to have faith! We are outside the realm of true science here and in the historical realm. And, if the answer to the problem lies in the realm of the supernatural, there may never be a "satisfactory account" as you call it. And since when is simply "a satisfactory account" sufficient in science? How do you define "a satisfactory account"? Satisfactory by whose standards? From the OP
Until materialists come up with a sufficient explanation for why the mental can, in principle, be linked causally with the physical, the “emergent property” explanation is more like astrology than astronomy.
I would agree with this, but add that what qualifies as a sufficient explanation is a subjective thing. There will be differing opinions on this, so simply because some people think it is sufficient, that doesn't mean it is sufficient or even that it is accurate. To be honest, even if you come up with what you feel is a "satisfactory account", I doubt it will be satisfactory to me - unless it can be demonstrated scientifically. So things can become quite subjective at this point for both sides. What is satisfactory to me may not be satisfactory to you and that's to be expected. There might not even be a "scientific" answer - if God supernaturally created our consciousness by creating us in His image. If humans were created by God as we suspect, as we feel the data supports, the inability to explain consciousness would be an expected result. Creation - the poof account from a conscious, intelligent Being would make more sense in my mind than the evolutionary poof account of consciousness from mindless meaningless chemicals.
tjguy
November 20, 2014
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Adapa:
Sure. Go ahead and propose a testable hypothesis for the idea consciousness is the produce of external supernatural forces. Don’t forget to include your falsification criteria.
Adapa, you are a cartoon version of the typical materialist.Box
November 20, 2014
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Silver Asiatic I would hope that you’d be willing to consider and investigate, fairly, both options – premature as either may be. Sure. Go ahead and propose a testable hypothesis for the idea consciousness is the produce of external supernatural forces. Don't forget to include your falsification criteria.Adapa
November 20, 2014
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keith s @8, I would second Silver Asiatic's comment. As to the investigation, would it be too much to ask you to go outside of "science" and "how"? As you investigate, you might even reconsider your current foundational notion that "consciousness emerges from the physical brain." ((Yes, yes, we know that there is a relationship, but try to consider ideas beyond one-way-from-physical-to-psychical-reductionism.)) You have admitted that there is no such explanation, writing such "[claims] . . . are premature at best," but your additional comment concerning dualism or other form(s) of immaterialism just isn't true, such claims are typically (usually) made from outside of science. Just keep telling yourself, "ways of knowing, ways of knowing, . . . are plural." KF's post concerning the fundamental difference between computation and contemplation would be a great place to start.Tim
November 20, 2014
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keith s #8
Anyone who claims that we know how consciousness emerges from the physical brain is premature, at best, but so is anyone who makes that claim for dualism or some other form of immaterialism.
I would hope that you'd be willing to consider and investigate, fairly, both options - premature as either may be.Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2014
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Magic is all unguided evolution hasJoe
November 20, 2014
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mahuna @ 13 It's like 'Poof' as in magic.Me_Think
November 20, 2014
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Did you perhaps mean "Puffery", which means "making oneself appear important"? Poofery is a term applied to the stereotypical behavior of homosexual males.mahuna
November 20, 2014
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I wouldn't be so quick to put birds and fish in the same category as the hurricane. At least for birds, we know that they choose a formation by intelligent methods. Some of the methodology may be innate, but that's true of all intelligence. And given what we're JUST STARTING to learn about the role of bacteria in forming clouds, I wouldn't even put the hurricane in the 'raw physical' category. Bacteria communicate with each other by all sorts of methods, only a few of which we are JUST STARTING to learn. It's possible that they form a cyclone for their own purposes, to pick up more bacteria from the water.polistra
November 20, 2014
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keith s:
I agree that there isn’t yet a satisfactory materialist account of consciousness,
There isn't yet a satisfactory materialist account of anything- life, the stars, the planets, the universeJoe
November 20, 2014
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One of the ancient philosophical arguments against the material universe being eternal, prior to our current scientific evidence for the Big Bang,,,
Evidence For The Big Bang - Michael Strauss - video https://vimeo.com/91775973 Evidence Supporting the Big Bang http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/s7.htm
,,,was the infinite regress argument,,,
Time Cannot Be Infinite Into The Past - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg0pdUvQdi4
The infinite regress is particulary devastating to materialism because it is impossible, due to the infinite regress, for there ever to be a today, a 'now', if materialism were true,,,
The dissolution of today - graph - May 21, 2014 Scenario A shows the actual situation of the arrow of time, running from left to right, from today to the future. If this arrow is infinite then we would have no last day. To scenario A we apply a shift according to a leftward vector of infinite length to get scenario B suggested by Carroll. Of course the arrow of time continues to run from left to right, but the shift produces a “little” problem: the “no last day” becomes “no today!”. Simply in Carroll’s wonderland the present disappears, and with the present ourselves disappear. :(Please give us back the Creator!) https://uncommondescent.com/physics/the-dissolution-of-today/
Yet, Consciousness, (and information), does not suffer from the infinite regress argument because it is always 'now' for consciousness (and information). Einstein was once asked by a philosopher,,,
"Can physics demonstrate the existence of 'the now' in order to make the notion of 'now' into a scientifically valid term?"
Einstein's answer was categorical, he said:
"The experience of 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics."
The 'now' quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video, and what the philosopher meant by the question can be read in full context in the article following the video:
Stanley L. Jaki: "The Mind and Its Now" https://vimeo.com/10588094 The Mind and Its Now - Stanley L. Jaki, July 2008 Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind's baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not. ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind's ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows. ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond. ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS. http://www.saintcd.com/science-and-faith/277-the-mind-and-its-now.html?showall=1&limitstart=
Moreover, 'the now of the mind', contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time.
A Short History Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
i.e. ,Sans LaPlace, quantum mechanics says of time (and by default says to the the infinite regress argument), 'I have no need of that hypothesis'. In fact, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein's answer to the philosopher in this way:
"It is impossible for the experience of 'the now of the mind' to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics."
Here are a few quotes, in regards to the primacy of consciousness, from some giants in Quantum Mechanics:
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the originator of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) (from Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797) “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – "It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries'
Of related note, Physicists are on the verge of closing the last 'loophole' for 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum entanglement. i.e. The 'free will' loophole:
Is Quantum Entanglement Real? - David Kaiser - Nov. 14, 2014 Excerpt: How to close this loophole? Well, obviously, we aren’t going to try to prove that humans have free will. But we can try something else. In our proposed experiment, the detector setting that is selected (say, measuring a particle’s spin along this direction rather than that one) would be determined not by us — but by an observed property of some of the oldest light in the universe (say, whether light from distant quasars arrives at Earth at an even- or odd-numbered microsecond). These sources of light are so far away from us and from one another that they would not have been able to receive a single light signal from one another, or from the position of the Earth, before the moment, billions of years ago, when they emitted the light that we detect here on Earth today. That is, we would guarantee that any strange “nudging” or conspiracy among the detector settings — if it does exist — would have to have occurred all the way back at the Hot Big Bang itself, nearly 14 billion years ago. If, as we expect, the usual predictions from quantum theory are borne out in this experiment, we will have constrained various alternative theories as much as physically possible in our universe. If not, that would point toward a profoundly new physics. Either way, the experiment promises to be exciting — a fitting way, we hope, to mark Bell’s paper’s 50th anniversary. - David Kaiser is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he teaches physics and the history of science. His latest book is “How the Hippies Saved Physics: Science, Counterculture, and the Quantum Revival.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/opinion/sunday/is-quantum-entanglement-real.html?_r=1
My only question right now is not if they will close the free will loop hole but, "By how many standard deviations will they close it?",,, These guys don't mess around, they closed the last loophole by 70 standard deviations, and verified Leggett's inequality by 120 standard deviations! Verse and Music
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Fish: He is before all things, Colossians 1:17,18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhQ2LR1KGDo
bornagain77
November 20, 2014
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KS, I note a telling "how." Why do you assume and imply as though it were unquestionable, that consciousness emerges from the material? Every sign we have points to the opposite, i.e. to begin with our material cosmos is evidently designed, i.e. on signs linked to fine tuning that sets up H, He, O and C as the first four elements with their astonishing individual and combined properties (e.g. water, organic chemistry) . . . and with N close by [proteins], a product of intelligently directed configuration. So, ask yourself if Plato had it right, that you are putting the last first and the first last, making a foundational error. KFkairosfocus
November 20, 2014
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I agree that there isn't yet a satisfactory materialist account of consciousness, but allow me to point out what should be obvious, but is often overlooked: There is no satisfactory "immaterialist" account of consciouness either. Anyone who claims that we know how consciousness emerges from the physical brain is premature, at best, but so is anyone who makes that claim for dualism or some other form of immaterialism. What's poof for the goose is poof for the gander.keith s
November 20, 2014
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Materialist Bible Darwin 1:1 "In the beginning Everything spontaneously emerged from Nothing"DavidD
November 19, 2014
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PPPS: Thought-sparker: trying to draw out something from nothing -- non-being. The pivotal problem faced by a priori evolutionary materialism and its concept of "emergence" as materialist magic.kairosfocus
November 19, 2014
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PPS: Pardon a clip from the just linked, parallel to BA in the OP:
even with computational functional organisation, we have not been able to make rocks dream . . . nor can we. Computational processing in various architectures — INCLUDING neural networks, artificial or natural (= brains) — is patently qualitatively, categorically distinct from the self aware, insightful, rational and creative contemplation we experience and observe in one another. Where also, the notion that such dreams may emerge beyond a magical threshold is tantamount to trying to draw out something from nothing — from non-being. Until you identify and demonstrate a sufficient causal pattern or an observed fact, we can set this notion to one side as science fiction fantasy. There is a fundamental distinction between blind, signal processing based computation and insightful, self aware rational reasoning. So, the fact that self-aware mindedness exists is pointing to something that an a priori materialism influenced age has great difficulty acknowledging. Namely, that it is at least possible that the material world we experience as self aware conscious persons may not be the only world we experience. In a world dominated by evolutionary materialism dressed up in a lab coat, that may be very hard to recognise or allow in the door. But, surely, at minimum we should keep an open mind on the subject, given that we can see that computation and contemplation are fundamentally distinct phenomena. By now, it should be plain that blind, mechanical, programmed cause effect chain computation is simply not a process of rational insight. Which carries with it the point that we should be willing to recognise that neural network or digital computer or mechanical integrator based signal processing is not even on the right path to be self-aware, conscious reasoning and meaningful contemplation. So, rocks not only have no dreams in the raw states as a matter of observed fact, but we can show why refined and organised rocks that form computational entities, by virtue of the radical difference between cause-effect links and ground-consequent inferences, are not even on the right road to dreaming.
kairosfocus
November 19, 2014
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