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Murder: You Either Agree That It’s Wrong or You Don’t

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Here at UD we have been discussing first principles over the last several weeks, and those discussions came to mind when I read about the recent paper After-birth Abortion:  Why Should the Baby Live?, in which Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva argue in good Nazi fashion that some newborn babies have Lebensunwertes Leben (“life unworthy of life”).

In this article Gabby Speach makes all kinds of philosophical arguments against the Giubilini/Minerva thesis.  Unfortunately, while in the main I agree with Ms. Speach, her article is all but useless and will not convince anyone who is not already convinced.  Why?  Because she is trying to argue for first principles and that is a losing proposition.  First principles must be accepted as self-evident.  They are the foundation upon which all arguments are built, and just as one cannot put the foundation on the third floor, one cannot construct arguments for first principles.  By definition those who resist first principles have, at the very least, deeply disordered minds.  They may also be, as in this case,  profoundly evil.  The response to such people is not to argue with them but to resist them.  Their ideas should be rejected categorically and if they act on those ideas they should be punished severely.

In her paper Ms. Speach argues that killing babies is wrong because they are human beings who are moral persons because they are rational beings.  Nonsense.  Killing babies is wrong because they are human beings.  Full stop.  And why is it wrong to kill human beings?  Because they, of all creatures, are the only ones created Imago Dei.  Ms. Speach seems to believe that one can ground the prohibition on killing humans in pure unaided reason.  This is simply not the case.  If God exists and he has prohibited the killing of human beings because they are created in his image, then it is objectively evil to kill humans.  As the Talmud puts it, he who kills a man is considered to have destroyed the entire world.

On the other hand, if God does not exist it is not wrong to kill anyone, if by “wrong” we mean “to transgress against an objective and transcendent moral law.”  Richard Dawkins is right about one thing.  If God does not exist in the universe “there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”  If God does not exist we might still have a strong opinion that killing babies is wrong.  But what if someone else has a strong opinion that killing babies is a good idea?  Who is to arbitrate between our strong opinions?  That’s right, no one.

Famous infanticide apologist Peter Singer notes that pro-life people “do not know how to argue against anyone who agrees with them that the fetus and newborn infant have the same moral status, but then denies that merely existing as an innocent living human being is enough to give a being a right to life.”  Peter Singer is right.  I do not know how to argue with someone who denies that it is wrong to kill innocent human beings, and the reason I do not know how to argue for that proposition is that there are no arguments to support it.  Instead, as a first principle, it is the foundation from which arguments begin, and only evil men deny it.

Peter Singer, Alberto Giubilini, and Francesca Minerva are evil men.  It is not rational to argue with evil, because arguing with evil is pointless.  Evil must not be argued with; it must be resisted, with force if necessary.

Comments
Bruce David: “Your belief . . . hides an assumption that is based in your religious beliefs, namely that a fertilized egg, a zygote, is a human being.” Well, they are certainly not dogs or chickens or goats. Even you admit that there comes a point at which it is no longer OK to kill babies. What is the difference between the baby on that day and the previous day? And the day before that? And the day before that? Conception is the only non-arbitrary dividing line. God save us from people, like you and the communists and the Nazis, who arrogate unto themselves the right to divide innocent humans into “OK to slaughter by the millions” and “Not OK to slaughter” categories. Your Lebensunwertes Leben (“life unworthy of life”) attitude puts you in some pretty unsavory company Bruce. And don’t give me your “babies are ensouled in the third trimester” crap. That just goes to show that when someone wants to advocate for murdering babies they’ll rely on any outrageous lunacy to justify it. You truly are evil. We are just going ‘round and ‘round now. Time to move on.Barry Arrington
March 18, 2012
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Barry: My comments regarding the outrage of the woman holding the sign was not intended to argue for the equivalence of moral views. I don't believe in the objective reality of morality in the first place, so whether particular moral points of view are equivalent or not is irrelevant to me. Rather, I was trying to point out that your moral outrage and condemnation will only have the effect of hardening the positions you so strongly oppose, and that this is counter-productive to what I assume is your real desire, namely to find some way of resolving the problem. And I beg to differ. Your belief that abortion is wrong because "it is wrong to slaughter innocent babies" hides an assumption that is based in your religious beliefs, namely that a fertilized egg, a zygote, is a human being (a "baby"). As I pointed out many posts ago, this is a belief that is simply not shared by at least half the people in this country, myself included, and it is very much rooted in your Christianity.Bruce David
March 18, 2012
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Bruce David: “I learn and grow, and hopefully contribute to the learning, growth, satisfaction, inner peace, joy, and wisdom of others.” How exactly do you contribute to the growth, joy and inner peace of the babies who are ripped apart in their mothers’ wombs as a direct consequence of the unlimited abortion license for which you advocate?Barry Arrington
March 18, 2012
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William:
If we are all immortal beings and there are infinite experiential venues through which we can express our individuated godhood, what difference does it make if humanity decides to experience self-annihilation?
Another good question! Ultimately, you're right, it makes no difference. Interimly, however, working to avoid the immense suffering that would accompany such self annihilation is a game worth playing. And in the process, I learn and grow, and hopefully contribute to the learning, growth, satisfaction, inner peace, joy, and wisdom of others.Bruce David
March 18, 2012
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Bruce David:
You know those women who hold up signs at rallys saying things like, “Get your laws off my body!”? . . . Do you imagine that they are not every bit as outraged as you are? What response do you think that your condemnation will evoke? It will serve only to harden their positions and increase their rage at your (as they see it) unjustified and very unwelcome attempt to impose your religious views on them.
Your comment reminds me of the old anti-anticommunists’ rhetoric. (When has evil not had defenders such as yourself, ever ready to say that black is just a real dark shade of white?) “KGB agents love their children too!” we were told. Yes, and they murdered millions and forced others into slavery in the gulags. The “moral equivalence” card was a cynical ploy then and so it is now. Just as the communists were evil, so too are those who advocate for the dismemberment of children in their mother’s wombs. The fact that they are outraged when someone points this out does not make them (or you) any less evil, and just as it was right to condemn the murderous communist regimes so I will continue to condemn those who agitate for the right to kill babies. I knew it wouldn’t take long for you to trot out the “cram your religious views” chestnut. Of course, I am doing no such thing. I am simply pointing out that it is wrong to slaughter innocent babies, something everyone knows whatever their religious views might be (including those, like you, who advocate for it). Bruce David:
If you want to actually be useful, you’re going to have to find another approach. You might start with that of Jesus—love, compassion, and forgiveness. From there, you might be able to start a dialog that could actually accomplish something.
Why does everyone think Jesus was a milquetoast mamby pamby wimp afraid forcefully to confront evil. Jesus called evildoers “a brood of vipers” and “a wicked and adulterous generation.” And he took a rope and beat the tar out of those who desecrated his father’s house. Jesus said it would be better not to have been born than to hurt a little child. That should chill your blood sir.Barry Arrington
March 18, 2012
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I am convinced that their are certain aspects of religious thought, errors if you will, (almost all religious thought as currently practiced, not just Christian thought) which are leading the human race towards self annihilation.
If we are all immortal beings and there are infinite experiential venues through which we can express our individuated godhood, what difference does it make if humanity decides to experience self-annihilation?William J Murray
March 18, 2012
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William:
If every book is divine revelation (written by god), what purpose does it serve to call “Conversations with God” divine revelation? In fact, if all books are written by god (since all humans are god), doesn’t it really just boil down to you believing whatever you want, and everyone else believing whatever they want, and everyone being equally valid (as god) in expressing their one-of-infinite individuations of god’s potential, because none of it is right, or wrong, or good, or bad, but just individuated expression of godhood?
Good question. My answer is that there is a distinction between revelation (God speaking through one of us as God) and other speech (God speaking as us). When God is speaking as God, the information is much more likely to be reliable and accurate than when He is speaking as us. The reason is that when we choose to incarnate, part of the process is to forget Who We Really Are and that we actually have within us the capacity to know. The difficulty, of course, is to determine which speech (or written word) is which. But of course all those who believe that there is such a thing as Divine revelation have this problem. You, I assume, believe that the Bible is revelation. A Muslim believes that the Koran is revelation. A Jew believes that the Torah is revelation, but not the New Testament. How does one know? How do you decide? I submit that there is only one way---look to one's own inner knowing for guidance. I believe that the Conversations with God series of books is Divine revelation because the quality of the information and the way that it is presented speaks to me in a way that nothing else I have read does. My inner knowing tells me that this is real. Many who post to this thread, coming as they do from a Christian perspective, contend that I am deluding myself, or believing only what I want to believe because it is convenient and allows me to behave how I wish to. I can only assess all the information available to me, all the competing claims to know the truth, to the best of my ability and make my decision based on my best sincere effort to understand. And on that basis, Conversations with God is the most powerful, persuasive candidate for Divine revelation that I have yet encountered.
So, the question becomes, why are you here (as one god perspective) trying to talk other god-perspectives out of their perspective, and trying to defend your own?
I don't believe I am trying to defend it. I hope I am merely presenting it, although when someone deliberately or inadvertently twists the meaning of what I say, as many do here, I do feel a need to correct their misapprehension. But why do I even bother to present it? I am convinced that their are certain aspects of religious thought, errors if you will, (almost all religious thought as currently practiced, not just Christian thought) which are leading the human race towards self annihilation. These errors include the notion that we are separate from each other and from God, that "my religion" (whatever that happens to be) is the one and only correct way, and the whole notion of morality. I believe that these three constitute a deadly combination that is responsible for the headlong rush towards self destruction that we are currently enduring on this planet, in which, for example, an American president starts two wars which at their basis are religiously motivated, causing the Muslim world to react with calls to "jihad" to defend the faith against the infidels, etc., etc., etc.. I would like to be part of the solution in my own small way.Bruce David
March 18, 2012
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Barry:
Bruce David: “Only love heals.” Tell that to the babies being ripped apart in their mothers’ wombs. Your platitudes disgust me.
Well, you are free to wallow in your disgust, if you wish, but it will serve no purpose other than to feed your self-righteousness. In fact it is counter-productive to what you actually want to achieve. You know those women who hold up signs at rallys saying things like, "Get your laws off my body!"? Do you think they are playing? Do you imagine that they are not every bit as outraged as you are? What response do you think that your condemnation will evoke? It will serve only to harden their positions and increase their rage at your (as they see it) unjustified and very unwelcome attempt to impose your religious views on them. In short, your disgust and condemnation only increase the polarization that exists on this issue. It does nothing to bring about any kind of resolution. If you want to actually be useful, you're going to have to find another approach. You might start with that of Jesus---love, compassion, and forgiveness. From there, you might be able to start a dialog that could actually accomplish something.Bruce David
March 18, 2012
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In the first place, I am far from the only one to accept that these books constitute genuine Revelation. They have been international best sellers for years. There are literally millions of people who accept that God actually is speaking through the author in these remarkable volumes. ...... I do not assert that we are all the same person. I assert that we are each part of and One with God—each an individuation of the Divine.
If every book is divine revelation (written by god), what purpose does it serve to call "Conversations with God" divine revelation? In fact, if all books are written by god (since all humans are god), doesn't it really just boil down to you believing whatever you want, and everyone else believing whatever they want, and everyone being equally valid (as god) in expressing their one-of-infinite individuations of god's potential, because none of it is right, or wrong, or good, or bad, but just individuated expression of godhood? So, the question becomes, why are you here (as one god perspective) trying to talk other god-perspectives out of their perspective, and trying to defend your own?William J Murray
March 18, 2012
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Bruce David: “Well, what you resist persists. You won’t heal anything by condemning it.” It is true that your outrageous advocacy for killing children may persist despite my condemnation. That evil persists after being condemned is no reason to stop condemning it. I will condemn your evil with my dying breath. Bruce David: “Only love heals.” Tell that to the babies being ripped apart in their mothers’ wombs. Your platitudes disgust me.Barry Arrington
March 18, 2012
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@mike1962
A train carrying 1000 people is speeding down the tracks. The train is heading for a bridge that you know will collapse if the train proceeds. You’re standing near a switch that will cause the train to take an alternate route, saving the train and all people aboard. One problem: there’s a man struck on the tracks on the alternate route that will surely die.
Now that the train is on the alternate route, and the one man was surely killed, you realize that the train cannot be stopped and is heading towards a dead end. Just behind the dead end is a nuklear plant, where, if the train should impact, surely will cause a nuclear incident like Fukushima. However you have a motorcycle that is faster than the train, and a load of explosives that you could use to blow up the tracks to save the human race vs the people on the train. Further you realize that you only have time to blow up the tracks right in front of an elementary school ... My point being: these 'moral decision making' stories are very much impractical to come to an ethical or moral conclusion. They only target the situation but not the big picture. Oh, btw the man tied down on the tracks did not die, it was Chuck Norris. He stopped the train with his little finger, and all was well this time ;-).sxussd13
March 18, 2012
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Barry:
Bruce David, you advocate for the freedom to kill children in their mother’s womb. You are in the same ethical camp as Alberto Giubilini, Francesca Minerva, and Peter Singer. The only difference is they advocate for a slightly longer period of time during which the babies can be legally slaughtered. You ask me to give you a “respectful” response. I will not! You do not deserve respect from me, sir. Everyone who, like you, advocates for the freedom to kill innocent children deserves nothing from me but contempt and derision, and that, sir, is what you will get. I will not respond to your absurd arguments for why it is OK to kill babies. I will only resist you.
Well, what you resist persists. You won't heal anything by condemning it. Only love heals. Stephen:
Obviously, we need input in the form of true premises about the real world if we want to deduce other truths about the real world.
On this we agree.
“My study of mathematics and the reasoning processes used therein gave me many examples of how reason can be used to arrive at some kind of truth. However, in every case, every case, the process begins with, indeed requires, an axiomatic and definitional structure as a beginning point from which all subsequent conclusions (theorems) are derived.” Notice how you neglect to tell us which “definitional structures” and which “axioms” and theorems” you used to arrive at your present conclusion, which is precisely what you should disclose if you expect to be take seriously. This is a bluff, plain and simple.
I am not sure what you are referring to by the phrase "your present conclusion". If by that you mean my metaphysical/spiritual worldview, at this point I will only note that I do not regard the mathematical model as a way to arrive at that kind of knowledge. I have attempted in other threads to lay out my own epistemological stance and how I have derived my metaphysical conclusions from it. I'm not going to go into that again here; this post is long enough as it is.
First, you assert that we are all the same person and that, when an intellectual dispute arises among us, this same person is disagreeing with himself. Only someone who rejects reason’s rules could hold such an irrational position.
I do not assert that we are all the same person. I assert that we are each part of and One with God---each an individuation of the Divine. These are not equivalent statements. Last week I had a dream in which I was playing doubles. In the dream, my partner got angry with one of the players across the net and physically attacked him. I separated them and berated my partner for his action. Now all three characters in this dream---me, my partner, and our opponent---were a part of me (as well as the setting in which the action occurred), yet we all disagreed in different ways. There is no logical contradiction, just as there is no logical contradiction in the assertion that God could individuate Himself into billions of parts, and that these individuations could then act out all kinds of scenarios in all kinds of settings, which I believe is in fact the truth.
“I observed that in philosophy, virtually all philosophers claim to use reason to arrive at truth, yet the major philosophers in the tradition of Western philosophy disagree with each other.” Again, notice how you conclude that [a] because major philosophers disagree about morality, [b] it follows that reason cannot separate moral truth from moral falsehood. But it is precisely because these “major” philosophers often began with false assumptions or did not reason properly, that they failed to arrive at the truth. In the case of your “internationally” famous philosopher, Neal Walsch, his error is the same as yours. He denies the Law of Non-Contradiction.
Well, first of all, I do not classify Walsch as a philosopher. I view him as a channel for Divine revelation. When I speak of major philosophers in the tradition of Western philosophy, I mean thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Augustine, Spinoza, Kant, Leibniz, Descartes, Locke, Berkeley, Hume, Wittgenstein, Kirkegaard, Santayana, etc. And they do not simply disagree on moral questions (ethics), they disagree on all the major categories of philosophy---metaphysics, epistemology, aesthetics, etc. And they all claim to use reason to arrive at their conclusions. Your attempt to get around this obvious failure of reason to give us truth by saying that they "often began with false assumptions or did not reason properly" implies that you understand the proper use of reason whereas none (or at most one) of these thinkers did. Do you not see that there is a touch of arrogance in your position? And can you not see that it is not very persuasive? I mean you're smart and all, but these were among the most brilliant minds in our history!
Among other things, you claim that you existed prior to your own conception and birth—and, by virtue of your pre-existence–you had the power to choose your own parents in whatever century or millennium you happen to choose. Reasonable people simply do not think or write this way.
I am not alone in this view. There are many who share this view of reincarnation, many millions in fact, if you count the Buddhists and the Hindus. So what is your definition of a "reasonable person"? I suspect that it is someone whose views don't stray too far from your own. In this you remind me of the Darwinist definition of a "legitimate scientist".Bruce David
March 17, 2012
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sterusjon: Thank you for your comments. And you're right, it is a very important distinction that YHWH can restore the life He takes. Since we cannot, we are in a completely different position when we take a life. Thanks for pointing that out.ChristBearer
March 17, 2012
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mike1962:
Actually, it was the ones who sentenced him that were guilty. About the soldiers that actually killed him, he said, “Father forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing.” They were following orders. Just a point of clarification.
Once again, your response has taken me by surprise! In my entire life, I have never heard this interpretation of Jesus' prayer of forgiveness in Luke 23:34. The following sums up well the traditional teaching on this verse:
"It is also to be noted that Jesus forgave immediately, even though the hostility of his enemies continued to manifest itself. Forgiveness is his only response to their hostility. Moreover, his forgiveness was addressed to all those who, humanly speaking, were responsible for his death. This included not merely the soldiers who were carrying out the execution, but all those, near or distant, manifest or hidden, who had played a part in the process that led to his condemnation and crucifixion. For all of them he asked forgiveness."
Either Jesus was on that cross to provide forgiveness or He was not. Clearly, He was. Scripture is unequivocal on that point. So, to attempt to bring 'unforgiveness' into the cross event goes against its very purpose, and frankly, cheapens it. In essence what you're saying is that Jesus, who came for the express purpose of dying on the cross to provide forgiveness, was unwilling to forgive those who sentenced Him to die. This not only contradicts His commands to love one's enemies, return good for evil, and forgive those who sin against us, but it also turns Him into a hypocrite, demanding of us something He is not willing to do, which eliminates Him as the ultimate example of who we are to model our lives after.ChristBearer
March 17, 2012
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Bruce, You claim that reason “by itself,” is powerless to arrive at truth. As Barry has pointed out, that statement is not true. Reason is inseparable from its foundation, the law of non-contradiction, from which we can deduce the law of the excluded middle and other truths about the relationship between logic and the real world, such as the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument. Reason alone can arrive at all these truths with no help from any other source. Obviously, we need input in the form of true premises about the real world if we want to deduce other truths about the real world. Alas, you do not accept the law of non-contradiction, which is why you struggle with the reasoning process. More serious, though, is the problem that you don’t know you are struggling. To justify you negative conclusion about reason’s power, you provide the following rationale: -- “My study of mathematics and the reasoning processes used therein gave me many examples of how reason can be used to arrive at some kind of truth. However, in every case, every case, the process begins with, indeed requires, an axiomatic and definitional structure as a beginning point from which all subsequent conclusions (theorems) are derived.” Notice how you neglect to tell us which “definitional structures” and which “axioms” and theorems” you used to arrive at your present conclusion, which is precisely what you should disclose if you expect to be take seriously. This is a bluff, plain and simple. Unfortunately, you do not appreciate the extent to which you make illogical statements. Here are three quick examples: First, you assert that we are all the same person and that, when an intellectual dispute arises among us, this same person is disagreeing with himself. Only someone who rejects reason’s rules could hold such an irrational position. Next, you write this: --“I observed that in philosophy, virtually all philosophers claim to use reason to arrive at truth, yet the major philosophers in the tradition of Western philosophy disagree with each other.” Again, notice how you conclude that [a] because major philosophers disagree about morality, [b] it follows that reason cannot separate moral truth from moral falsehood. But it is precisely because these “major” philosophers often began with false assumptions or did not reason properly, that they failed to arrive at the truth. In the case of your “internationally” famous philosopher, Neal Walsch, his error is the same as yours. He denies the Law of Non-Contradiction. Finally, in answer to my question about whether it would have been OK for your parents to have had you aborted, you insinuate that they had little to say about it. Among other things, you claim that you existed prior to your own conception and birth—and, by virtue of your pre-existence--you had the power to choose your own parents in whatever century or millennium you happen to choose. Reasonable people simply do not think or write this way. Once we subject to scrutiny the ideas of those who support the killing of innocent babies, we will find a similar kind of anti-intellectualism informed by a radically cruel brand of selfishness that poses as sophistication.StephenB
March 17, 2012
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Bruce, You claim that reason “by itself,” is powerless to arrive at truth. As Barry has pointed out, that statement is not true. Reason is inseparable from its foundation, the law of non-contradiction, from which we can deduce the law of the excluded middle and other truths about the relationship between logic and the real world, such as the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument. Reason alone can arrive at all these truths with no help from any other source. Obviously, we need input in the form of true premises about the real world if we want to deduce other truths about the real world. Alas, you do not accept the law of non-contradiction, which is why you struggle with the reasoning process. More serious, though, is the problem that you don’t know you are struggling. To justify your negative conclusion about reason’s power, you provide the following rationale:
“My study of mathematics and the reasoning processes used therein gave me many examples of how reason can be used to arrive at some kind of truth. However, in every case, every case, the process begins with, indeed requires, an axiomatic and definitional structure as a beginning point from which all subsequent conclusions (theorems) are derived.
Notice how you neglect to tell us which “definitional structures” and which “axioms” and theorems” you used to arrive at your present conclusion, which is precisely what you should disclose if you expect to be take seriously. This is a bluff, plain and simple. Unfortunately, you do not appreciate the extent to which you make illogical statements. Here are three quick examples: First, you assert that we are all the same person and that, when an intellectual dispute arises among us, this same person is disagreeing with himself. Only someone who rejects reason’s rules could hold such an irrational position. Next, you write this:
“I observed that in philosophy, virtually all philosophers claim to use reason to arrive at truth, yet the major philosophers in the tradition of Western philosophy disagree with each other.”
Again, notice how you conclude that [a] because major philosophers disagree about morality, [b] it follows that reason cannot separate moral truth from moral falsehood. But it is precisely because these “major” philosophers often began with false assumptions or did not reason properly, that they failed to arrive at the truth. In the case of your “internationally” famous philosopher, Neal Walsch, his error is the same as yours. He denies the Law of Non-Contradiction. Finally, in answer to my question about whether it would have been OK for your parents to have had you aborted, you insinuate that they had little to say about it. Among other things, you claim that you existed prior to your own conception and birth—and, by virtue of your pre-existence--you had the power to choose your own parents in whatever century or millennium you happen to choose. Reasonable people simply do not think or write this way. Once we subject to scrutiny the ideas of those who support the killing of innocent babies, we will find a similar kind of anti-intellectualism informed by a radically cruel brand of selfishness that poses as sophistication.StephenB
March 17, 2012
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Bruce David, you advocate for the freedom to kill children in their mother’s womb. You are in the same ethical camp as Alberto Giubilini, Francesca Minerva, and Peter Singer. The only difference is they advocate for a slightly longer period of time during which the babies can be legally slaughtered. You ask me to give you a “respectful” response. I will not! You do not deserve respect from me, sir. Everyone who, like you, advocates for the freedom to kill innocent children deserves nothing from me but contempt and derision, and that, sir, is what you will get. I will not respond to your absurd arguments for why it is OK to kill babies. I will only resist you.Barry Arrington
March 17, 2012
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mike, this is not a close question. The historical record is glaringly clear on this point. The leaders conspired to commit the judicial murder of Jesus. They were morally guilty for their conduct. Suggesting that the text supports a general ethical principle of “it is OK to murder innocent people if the payoff is big enough” is absurd.Barry Arrington
March 17, 2012
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Barry: By the way, I have always been very careful to use the qualifier "by itself" in my statement, "Reason, by itself, is powerless to arrive at truth." Thus, you cannot in fairness accuse me of inconsistency if I use reason in conjunction with other types of knowledge, such as empirical observations or statements accepted as true a priori. In the above (#59), I have used reason in conjunction with empirical observation, with empirical observation being the more important factor. Thus, I stand by my statement, “It’s more of an empirical observation, based on an extensive study of both philosophy and mathematics.”Bruce David
March 17, 2012
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"The Jesus example: The people who killed Jesus were guilty of murder, as the text makes clear."
Actually, it was the ones who sentenced him that were guilty. About the soldiers that actually killed him, he said, "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing." They were following orders. Just a point of clarification.mike1962
March 17, 2012
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Barry: With all due respect, your "elucidation" of my reasoning process is both condescending and arrogant, and, I submit, violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the rules of civil discourse by which this site is supposed to be run. A more respectful response would have been to ask me to elucidate that process for you, rather than making something up out of whole cloth. Then, if it turned out to be some version of your idea, you would have grounds for the accusation. You didn't ask, but given your accusation, I will spell out the process by which I reached my conclusion anyway: My study of mathematics and the reasoning processes used therein gave me many examples of how reason can be used to arrive at some kind of truth. However, in every case, every case, the process begins with, indeed requires, an axiomatic and definitional structure as a beginning point from which all subsequent conclusions (theorems) are derived. The "truth" derived by mathematics is therefore in a certain sense empty. It tells us nothing about the actual world unless we assume that the world satisfies the axioms of one or another branch of mathematics. I also notice that mathematics is the one and only branch of human knowledge in which there is virtual unanimity regarding the conclusions reached therein. On the other hand, I observed that in philosophy, virtually all philosophers claim to use reason to arrive at truth, yet the major philosophers in the tradition of Western philosophy disagree with each other. This observation, coupled with the observation that mathematics always requires a priori truths (axioms) before anything can be derived, leads me to conclude that reason, by itself, is powerless to arrive at truth. So you see, my statement is grounded in the empirical observation of both mathematics and philosophy, as I said.Bruce David
March 17, 2012
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ChristBearer, Thanks for voicing my toughts so well. God, YHWH, is indeed in a very different class than His creatures. The often launched attacks that I have seen here over the years based on YHWH's instructions to Israel on how to take possession of the land of Caanan always ignore this fact. There is, in addition to being the source of life, another distinction that sets God apart. He can also restore the life He takes.sterusjon
March 17, 2012
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--mike1962: "A train carrying 1000 people is speeding down the tracks. The train is heading for a bridge that you know will collapse if the train proceeds. You’re standing near a switch that will cause the train to take an alternate route, saving the train and all people aboard. One problem: there’s a man struck on the tracks on the alternate route that will surely die." I would call this a strategic choice not a moral choice. Suppose you are out to rescue 10 people who are in danger of drowning and you only have time to save 4 of them. Does that mean that you chose to kill the other six?StephenB
March 17, 2012
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Bruce David: “Reason, by itself, is powerless to arrive at truth.” Barry: “Did you use reasoning to arrive at that conclusion?” Bruce David: “It’s more of an empirical observation, based on an extensive study of both philosophy and mathematics.” Barry’s elucidation of the thought processes that lead to Bruce’s obfuscation: Bruce: “Well, if I say yes, I did use reasoning to arrive at the truth that reasoning is powerless to arrive at truth, I will look like an idiot. But if I say I did not use reasoning to arrive at the conclusion everyone will know I’m lying, because it is obvious that I have engaged in reasoning of a sort -- self referentially incoherent reasoning to be sure, but reasoning nevertheless. How do I extricate myself from the horns of this dilemma? I know, I will try to change the meaning of the words. Instead of “reasoning,” I will say I arrived at the conclusion as an empirical observation based on my study of philosophy and math, and maybe no one will notice that “an observation grounded in the study of philosophy and math” is just another way of saying "reasoning." That oughta throw the hounds off my scent.”Barry Arrington
March 17, 2012
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http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/abortion-infanticide-humanity-free-speech/sxussd13
March 17, 2012
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Barry:
“reason, by itself, is powerless to arrive at truth.” Did you use reasoning to arrive at that conclusion?
It's more of an empirical observation, based on an extensive study of both philosophy and mathematics. See my comments in #42 for details.Bruce David
March 17, 2012
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Nullasalus: Your comment begs the question. You clearly assume without any proof, or even argument, that at zygote is a human being, and that therefore killing it is murder, and you get morally incensed about it. Well, fine, be my guest. Just don't expect me or anyone who disagrees with you to be persuaded by your outrage. And don't be surprised at similar outrage at the idea that we should forcibly deny women their freedom in this matter by millions of people who don't share your beliefs. And don't be mistaken, the feelings of people who support a woman's right to choose are every bit as intense and outraged as are yours. And by the way, contrary to your assertion, I have a very good idea that neither a zygote nor an embryo is a human being. By the metaphysical beliefs that I hold, as I have already explained, a human being does not come into existence until the soul joins the body, sometime during the third trimester when the brain is sufficiently developed for that to occur.Bruce David
March 17, 2012
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kairosfocus @43: I think you've described the reasoning I outlined as one possible approach in my penultimate paragraph of #35.Eric Anderson
March 17, 2012
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--Bruce: "We have had this conversation about the power of reason by itself to arrive at any kind of absolute truth several times before." We may have had the conversation, but it seems evident that you did not understand it since I have never said that reason "by itself" can attain to truth. You are confusing rationality with rationalism. --"The truth is that all morality is relative in that each of us is thrown back on our own best judgement to decide these questions." Does the above statement constitute an absolute truth or is it a relative truth? To my question, "Would it have been OK for your parents to have aborted you, you responded, --"The embryo that eventually became my body was not me. I was not even present during the first few months of my mother’s pregnancy. I eventually joined the fetus sometime during the third trimester. If she had aborted it, I would have known that that was her intention, and would not even have been considering being born into that body. I would have chosen to be born at another time into another body with possibly different parents, as I and everyone has and will have been hundreds of times until we have learned and remembered all there is to be gained from life on earth. Then we will move on to experience and grow in others of the endless number of spheres of God’s awesome, infinite creation." Thank you for allowing me to take a brief tour of your world.StephenB
March 17, 2012
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I would also recommend 'The Metamorphosis' by Kafka which poses a similar economical problem as proposed by the authors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Metamorphosis The conclusion is as striking and egocentric as the conclusion of the authors.sxussd13
March 17, 2012
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