Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“Neo-Darwinism is alive and well” according to article? On what planet?

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This abstract proclaims the good news (for Darwinists):

The Modern Synthesis (or “Neo-Darwinism”), which arose out of the reconciliation of Darwin’s theory of natural selection and Mendel’s research on genetics, remains the foundation of evolutionary theory. However, since its inception, it has been a lightning rod for criticism, which has ranged from minor quibbles to complete dismissal. Among the most famous of the critics was Stephen Jay Gould, who, in 1980, proclaimed that the Modern Synthesis was “effectively dead.” Gould and others claimed that the action of natural selection on random mutations was insufficient on its own to explain patterns of macroevolutionary diversity and divergence, and that new processes were required to explain findings from the fossil record. In 1982, Charlesworth, Lande, and Slatkin published a response to this critique in Evolution, in which they argued that Neo-Darwinism was indeed sufficient to explain macroevolutionary patterns. In this Perspective for the 75th Anniversary of the Society for the Study of Evolution, we review Charlesworth et al. (1982) in its historical context and provide modern support for their arguments. We emphasize the importance of microevolutionary processes in the study of macroevolutionary patterns. Ultimately, we conclude that punctuated equilibrium did not represent a major revolution in evolutionary biology – although debate on this point stimulated significant research and furthered the field – and that Neo-Darwinism is alive and well.

Zachary B. Hancock, Emma S. Lehmberg, Gideon S. Bradburd, “Neo-darwinism still haunts evolutionary theory: A modern perspective on Charlesworth, Lande, and Slatkin (1982)” at Evolution (May 17, 2021)

But this story just rolled through the mill an hour ago: Attack on Darwinism at AAAS’s flagship mag “Science” re racism and sexism. Let’s pass over the question of why Cool People never noticed that stuff about Charles Darwin for nearly a century and a half. Noticing now? Good. Then what does Agustín Fuentes suppose should replace Darwinism? A war on science? A war on math? A war on people who think getting right answers is a good thing? What’s supposed to be the next step?

Something isn’t right with this instrument panel.

Comments
ET: There isn’t any evidence for it so there has to be something else, duh. No, you could be wrong. Let's face it: you don't really have any hard evidence that there is some decades old, world-wide Darwinist conspiracy to toe the party line. You assume your own conclusion based on no objective evidence. That is only fair to ask the designer, duh. That is stupid to ask people who didn’t design it. Your designer(s) doesn't seem to be available. So, instead of throwing in the towel and giving up it seems to me that someone interested in science would try and see what inferences they can make based on the data (and there's quite a lot of it) available. If you want to just give up that's your call. More ignorance. The vast majority of the fossil record, >95%, is of marine invertebrates. Yet in that vast majority there isn’t any evidence for universal common descent. Genetics supports a common design. Biogeographic distributions support evolution by design. Again, lots of data you can analyse from a design point of view to attempt to figure out why certain design choices were made. Or, you could just give up. Your position doesn’t have a mechanism capable of producing the diversity of life. Period. We're talking about your position at the moment and why, despite having decades of data of different kind you haven't been able to a) establish when design was implemented to the point that the ID community agrees, b) been able to even hypothesise why a particular design approach was picked. A lot of the data you need is free and available so it's not a matter of money. It's either a matter of will or ability. Also, I can't remember the name of that atoll which has walls which look constructed; can you remember it? It's a good example.JVL
May 26, 2021
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JVL:
Like what? Show us the evidence.
There isn't any evidence for it so there has to be something else, duh.
So, it’s fair to ask, why were certain choices made.
That is only fair to ask the designer, duh. That is stupid to ask people who didn't design it.
You’ve got the fossil record, you can look up the genetics, you can consider the biogeographic distributions, you can look at morphology throughout known history.
More ignorance. The vast majority of the fossil record, >95%, is of marine invertebrates. Yet in that vast majority there isn't any evidence for universal common descent. Genetics supports a common design. Biogeographic distributions support evolution by design. Your position doesn't have a mechanism capable of producing the diversity of life. Period.ET
May 26, 2021
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I thought of another interesting question that the design inference might have some bearing on: the existence of ghosts. Do they exist? Do they arise 'naturally' as a result of trauma/conflict or are they generated some other way?JVL
May 25, 2021
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Marfin: How could you test for design , the very same way you can test pyramids , houses, watches, arrow heads, mouse traps, yo-yo`s , the list goes on. Okay, show me the methodology as applied to this: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/camel-rock I've got another thing in mind (an atoll in the Atlantic) but I can't quite remember the name. I'll keep thinking. Oh, there is this: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thedanispost/researchers-find-proof-of-ancient-atomic-war-a-great-many-years-prior/ Also, all your examples are non-organic. The real conflict comes when examining living things. Are you sure your method applies in both cases? If you honestly believe that somehow people who work in the science field are more moral than sports stars or second hand car sales men, you actually have won the award for most naive person ever. Just type into Wikipedia , list of scientific misconduct incidents , thats if your honest enough to do so. I am well aware of some of the more notorious examples of scientific fraud and most of the time it's fairly easy to tease out the motivations of the individuals who perpetrated the fraud. But you're suggesting a large, international and long running fraud and that's what I like you to provide evidence of. I'd also like to point out (and admit) that sometimes the famous frauds should have been examined a lot closer by the scientific community. I'm thinking of Piltdown Man, Cold Fusion, N-rays and some others. There were always skeptics of those . . . claims but it took far too long in some cases for the scientific community to scrutinise the claims as it should have. But, eventually, the scrutiny was applied and the fraud/mistakes were exposed. In other words, eventually the scientific community gets it right. But, again, you're proposing a long term, international lie but you have not presented any evidence that such a thing exists except that you disagree with the unguided conclusions. Also, if you have the time, I'd love to hear your ID hypothesis: was it all front loaded or has there been constant tinkering over the millions of years?JVL
May 25, 2021
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JVL - How could you test for design , the very same way you can test pyramids , houses, watches, arrow heads, mouse traps, yo-yo`s , the list goes on. If you honestly believe that somehow people who work in the science field are more moral than sports stars or second hand car sales men, you actually have won the award for most naive person ever. Just type into Wikipedia , list of scientific misconduct incidents , thats if your honest enough to do so.Marfin
May 25, 2021
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ET: Wow. It’s a strawman because no one let them go extinct. So . . . the designer(s) came up with this scheme to start with very simple basic replicators, created those, added some extra programming to make them evolve along some preset lines and let the whole thing go. KNOWING that it might take millions or billons of years to get to the goal (if it did, there would be the possibility that the preset programming would get unrecoverable corrupted) and that there would have to be a lot of life forms that evolved and then went extinct? So, if that's about what you think . . . why is that approach preferred over a) just creating the whole thing as desired from the get go or b) tweaking things as they happened to head towards a goal? IF you start with all the preloading and then step back and let it all rip you really don't have a guarantee that things will work out as desired. The programming might break down, a comet might slam into the earth and muck things up, aliens might show up and take over. Lots of things can happen after billions of years. IF you want to stick around and guide things as they happen that's a pretty long term commitment. Who's going to set up that kind of scheme? Seems to me the easiest thing from a design perspective is to just create the situation you want and implement it; a young earth creationist approach. But you think it was all preloaded and took billions of years to spin out. Why would someone pick that approach? There would have to be a reason since design is about making choices. ET: His ideas were untestable then and they remain untestable. So obviously there is something other than science keeping it around. Like what? Show us the evidence. And AGAIN, your position is all about the how and yet you and yours have nothing. Nothing on the how. Nothing on the when. Thanks to you and yours we don’t even know what determines biological form! You and yours can’t even answer basic biological questions!!! Your view is about intent and making choices; having a goal and figuring out a way to get to that goal. So, it's fair to ask, why were certain choices made. Why was it decided that a particular approach was the best approach? What makes one approach better than another? You've got the fossil record, you can look up the genetics, you can consider the biogeographic distributions, you can look at morphology throughout known history. You've got lots of known data to consider. What choices were made to bring about all that data and why was a particular choice preferred?JVL
May 25, 2021
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JVL:
If you’ve got evidence that there is some international, decades old conspiracy to protect Darwin’s ideas then present it.
His ideas were untestable then and they remain untestable. So obviously there is something other than science keeping it around. And AGAIN, your position is all about the how and yet you and yours have nothing. Nothing on the how. Nothing on the when. Thanks to you and yours we don't even know what determines biological form! You and yours can't even answer basic biological questions!!!ET
May 25, 2021
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Marfin: The fact that you cannot test your findings shows its just opinion , maybe informed opinion, but opinion just the same I don't know if your a preloaded ID proponent or a continual tinkerer ID proponent. But assuming you're one of those two . . . how would you test your 'findings'? How could I take an life form you assure me was designed and test it for design? Now as regards deceiving people ,why would Lance Armstrong ,Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds , Bernie Madoff, Elixabeth Holmes(Theranos) ,Ernest Haekel, Most of the tour de France cyclists, the Guys at Enron, Worldcom, Dan Brown, Bill Clinton, A hell of a lot of Olympic athletes , etc,etc want to deceive anyone hmm I wonder. Interesting that you didn't name any scientists except for Haekel (who is an interesting case; I suspect he was just honestly wrong. Fortunately, we know better now and some of his ideas have been debunked). What motivation would scientists have? Most of them are far from rich or influential. Many of them, in fact, have to deal with a lot of public abuse; especially those supporting unguided evolution. Some of them, in fact, are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. So, what's the point of standing up for something that about 40% of the American public thinks is bogus? You don't get rich. You don't get power. You don't get famous necessarily. You don't get your name written down in some record book. Just because you distrust people doesn't mean most of them are dishonest. If you've got evidence that there is some international, decades old conspiracy to protect Darwin's ideas then present it. Meanwhile, your preferred hypothesis still can't answer a lot of very sensible questions about how and why design was implemented. Heck, there isn't even a consensus on WHEN design was implemented.JVL
May 25, 2021
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Wow. It's a strawman because no one let them go extinct.ET
May 25, 2021
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JVL- The fact that you cannot test your findings shows its just opinion , maybe informed opinion, but opinion just the same , and as most in the palaeontology field will admit , "when you kick over a stone in Africa you have to rewrite the history of man". Now as regards deceiving people ,why would Lance Armstrong ,Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds , Bernie Madoff, Elixabeth Holmes(Theranos) ,Ernest Haekel, Most of the tour de France cyclists, the Guys at Enron, Worldcom, Dan Brown, Bill Clinton, A hell of a lot of Olympic athletes , etc,etc want to deceive anyone hmm I wonder. You must be the most naive guy in the world if you cant figure out why people are deceitful.Marfin
May 25, 2021
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ET: Nice strawman. How is it a straw man? You think life on earth was designed (you seem to favour a kind of preloaded scenario). If you're right then the designer(s) chose to set up a system which took hundreds of millions of years to arrive at human beings (the final goal?) meaning that lots of precursors came and went. Okay, some like the ones that created our oxygen rich atmosphere . . . those could be hypothesised to have a 'purpose'. But Australopithecus? Homo Habilis? There must have been a reason for the design choices 'cause that's what design is: making choices. So, what were the reasons for the choices that were made? (Just an aside: I think a completely preloaded scenarios would be much much harder to set up (assuming a final target) than just creating everything the way desired. But that's just me. I'm not a design proponent so I ask design proponents questions I assume they have at least considered.) (Another aside: for those that think that the designer was the Christian God: why not just ask him why he did things the way he did? Is that not allowed?)JVL
May 25, 2021
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JVL:
So, just to be clear, you don’t know what possible reason there could be for designing lots and lots of lifeforms only to let them go extinct.
Nice strawman. There aren't any known naturalistic mechanisms capable of producing the diversity of life. Changes to DNA can't do it. So all forms of evolutionism are lost in space.ET
May 25, 2021
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Marfin: BA77 posts a wealth of evidence by many eminent scientist clearly laying out the issues with the claim that Lucy was a transitional fossil , but you believe a Wikipedia article. I take seriously the peer-reviewed work and research that is behind the Wikipedia article. And the general consensus amongst palaeontologists. adly you dont understand the fossil business at all , here is a question I would like you to answer ,how many palaeontologist actually got their hands on the actual Lucy fossil. Here`s another one how many palaeontologists who might have a contrary view would be let within a million miles of the actual Lucy fossil by Johnson and white. The actual fossils are treated like sacred religious relics and are only allowed out to be seen and examined by the chosen few , everyone else gets copies. The copies are extremely high quality, you certainly don't want the originals (being priceless) on display to the public. I do not know how many palaeontologists have touched the actual fossils but I haven't heard many of them complaining. So I have a signed da Vinci painting I want to sell you , but I am not going to let you examine the one I have but I will let you examine a copy of it , are you still convinced the paining I have is genuine. You start with the assumption that the discoverers of Lucy intend to deceive and obfuscate. Why? Why would they do that? and lastly as I have mentioned before ,why is there opposing views on the Lucy fossil , why dont either side just do a test to show it is what they claim it to be oops THERE IS NO TEST. Sure there are differing opinions. That's generally true in science. But almost all working palaeontologists agree that Lucy is part of human heritage. What they tend to disagree on is the finer points like which species, etc. What kind of 'test' could there be? Are we incapable of doing science on historical objects because we can't 'prove' something in a lab? You are aware that some Neanderthal DNA has been recovered and they look to be pretty closely related to humans. And, again, you have no explanation for why Lucy was (apparently) designed, created and then left to go extinct. If your view doesn't explain many aspects of the historical fossil record then can it be considered a better explanation?JVL
May 25, 2021
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JVL- Its a shame how faithful most of you non believers are , faithful to a narrative without questioning. BA77 posts a wealth of evidence by many eminent scientist clearly laying out the issues with the claim that Lucy was a transitional fossil , but you believe a Wikipedia article. Sadly you dont understand the fossil business at all , here is a question I would like you to answer ,how many palaeontologist actually got their hands on the actual Lucy fossil. Here`s another one how many palaeontologists who might have a contrary view would be let within a million miles of the actual Lucy fossil by Johnson and white. The actual fossils are treated like sacred religious relics and are only allowed out to be seen and examined by the chosen few , everyone else gets copies. So I have a signed da Vinci painting I want to sell you , but I am not going to let you examine the one I have but I will let you examine a copy of it , are you still convinced the paining I have is genuine. and lastly as I have mentioned before ,why is there opposing views on the Lucy fossil , why dont either side just do a test to show it is what they claim it to be oops THERE IS NO TEST.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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This is my answer ,some species share similarities , some go extinct , some don`t so what. BMW designed 6 variations of the same motorcycle, some are still in production some are not , but unless I ask the designers why they specifically designed 6 types of the same motorcycle I will never know, sure I can speculate but I can`t be certain. So, just to be clear, you don't know what possible reason there could be for designing lots and lots of lifeforms only to let them go extinct. So human beings were the central focus of creating life on Earth (and for fine-tuning the universe) but the designer(s) decided to create millions of other species which no longer exist for some reason. Most of which existed before human beings were around. The reasons for deciding that, say, Lucy was a different genus and species is because of the skeletal characteristics that are different from modern human skeletons. Remember that species and genus are strictly human created boundaries and that nature doesn't give a toss. Anyway, biologists, somewhat arbitrarily decide when there are enough differing characteristics to declare a different species or genus when talking about ancient, no-longer-living creatures. If you look at the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)) some of the skeletal differences are discussed with the inferences made also discussed. Suffice it to say that most of the pertinent experts in the field have decided that the available evidence seems sufficient to decide that Lucy was from a different genus and, therefore, a different species. And there is the dating evidence as well.JVL
May 24, 2021
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No problem Marfin. and thank you for clearly highlighting the 'scientific' issue at hand. I failed to realize that JVL, in his theological question, was presupposing the existence of scientific evidence for human evolution that simply does not exist.bornagain77
May 24, 2021
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BA77- Thanks for that ,I have all that information also, but it would take me an eternity to compile and post it as well as you do, so thanks again.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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JVL claims "Lucy was not an ape". Others who are far more knowledgeable than JVL disagree and say Lucy, (i.e. Australopithecus afarensis), was an ape.
"a team of paleo-experts from the State University of New York, Stony Brook, (which includes distinguished leaders in the field such as Tuttle, Tardieu, Senut, Susman, Stern, and Jungers, among others) insist Lucy was predominately a tree dwelling ape that did not habitually walk upright" Review of "Contested Bones" (Part 6 - Chapter 6 "Australopithecus afarensis" - "Lucy") by Paul Giem - 25:00 minute mark https://youtu.be/QHZnhOUAe4c?list=PLHDSWJBW3DNU_twNBjopIqyFOwo_bTkXm&t=1435 26:00 minute mark: Craig Stanford 2012, ",, Afarensis as an arboreal adapted species is still valid and still represents the consensus view held by paleoanthropologists today". 35:00 minute mark: Body size of an ape Skull of an ape Shoulders of an ape Rib cage of an ape Spine of an ape Hip of an ape Hands of an ape Feet of an ape Knee joint of an ape Conclusion: Lucy's kind in mostly ape. 36:00 minute quote: "Lucy's distinctly ape-like nature is defended by numerous experts in the field who have published in highly respected peer-reviewed scientific journals such as,,," "these australopith specimens can be accommodated with the range of intraspecific variation of African apes" - Nature 443 (9/2006), p.296 "The australopithecines known over the last several decades from Olduvai and Sterkfontein, Kromdraai and Makapansgat, are now irrevocably removed from a place in a group any closer to humans than to African apes and certainly from any place in a direct human lineage." - Charles Oxnard, former professor of anatomy at the University of Southern California Medical School, who subjected australopithecine fossils to extensive computer analysis;?
Here is a humorous video of a Darwinist 'reconstructing' the pelvis bone of Lucy in order to make it 'fit' the false Darwinian narrative that Lucy was a transitional fossil that had a bipedal gait like humans
Lucy - The Powersaw Incident - a humorous video showing evolutionists reconstructing the pelvis of Lucy to match the false Darwinian narrative of human evolution - 32:08 mark of video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI4ADhPVpA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=1928
And here is the fraudulent reconstruction of Lucy that is widely displayed by Darwinists as supposed proof for human evolution
Lucy - fraudulent reconstruction http://www.live-news24.com/assets/news_photos/2016/08/29/image-13376.jpg
And here is the anatomically correct reconstruction of Lucy that Darwinists blatantly ignore
Lucy - a correct reconstruction - picture https://cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/img/articles/campaigns/lucy-exhibit.jpg
Further notes refuting the false Darwinian claim that Lucy had a bipedal gait
A Look at Lucy’s Legacy by Dr. David Menton and Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell on June 6, 2012 Excerpt: Other analyses taking advantage of modern technology, such as those by Christine Berge published in 1994-25 and 2010-26 in the Journal of Human Evolution, offer a different reconstruction allowing for a unique sort of locomotion. Berge writes, “The results clearly indicate that australopithecine bipedalism differs from that of humans. (1) The extended lower limb of australopithecines would have lacked stabilization during walking;,,, Lucy’s bones show the features used to lock the wrist for secure knuckle-walking seen in modern knuckle-walkers. https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/lucy/a-look-at-lucys-legacy/ Lucy Makeover Shouts a Dangerously Deceptive Message About Our Supposed Ancestors by Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell on October 5, 2013 Excerpt: Australopithecus afarensis is extinct. Its bones suggest it was not identical to living apes, but it did have much in common with them. Many have assessed the skeletal pieces of the various afarensis and possible afarensis fossils that have been found. Overall, these skeletal parts reveal an animal well-adapted to arboreal life. Its wrist bones also suggest it was a knuckle-walker. Reconstructions of its pelvis demonstrate its so-called “bipedal” gait was nothing like a human being’s upright gait. In fact, it is only the evolutionary wish to impute a bipedal gait to this animal that marches its fossils upright across the pages of the evolutionary story. https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/lucy/lucy-makeover-shouts-a-dangerously-deceptive-message-about-our-supposed-ancestors/
Again, contrary to what JVL apparently believes, his unrestrained imagination does not equate to actual scientific evidence that his Darwinian beliefs are true. It is only proof that JVL desperately wants to believe Darwinian evolution to be true. Others not so enamored with JVL's unrestrained imagination are certainly under no obligation to accept his 'wishful thinking' as scientific proof:
My Pilgrimage to Lucy’s Holy Relics Fails to Inspire Faith in Darwinism Excerpt: ---"We were sent a cast of the Lucy skeleton, and I was asked to assemble it for display,” remembers Peter Schmid, a paleontologist at the Anthropological Institute in Zurich.,,, "When I started to put [Lucy’s] skeleton together, I expected it to look human,” Schmid continues “Everyone had talked about Lucy as being very modern, very human, so I was surprised by what I saw.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/02/my_pilgrimage_to_lucys_holy_re.html
Verse:
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77
May 24, 2021
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JVL- This is my answer ,some species share similarities , some go extinct , some don`t so what. BMW designed 6 variations of the same motorcycle, some are still in production some are not , but unless I ask the designers why they specifically designed 6 types of the same motorcycle I will never know, sure I can speculate but I can`t be certain. How about you answer some of my questions.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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Marfin: You still haven't answered my question. If you can't just say so and we can move on, we can discuss some of the criteria use to determine that Lucy was a separate species. But I'd like you to either answer my question or tell me you can't first.JVL
May 24, 2021
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JVL- You say Lucy was a separate genus , so what test was done on Lucy to show she was a separate genus , surely science involves experimentation , rigorous testing , so conclusions may be drawn, so cite the tests please. The fact that humans and ape share some skeletal and morphological similarities says nothing more than that , if you disagree prove me wrong not by opinion, but once again by scientific testing.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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Marfin: Do you research Lucy was an ape, there are humans and there are apes , there are no in between`s. If you disagree with this please show me on definitive scientific test to show how any fossil can be shown to be our ancestor , not speculation but test. Lucy was not an ape, 'she' was in a separate genus. Humans are not descendant from apes, no one says they are. They all shared a common ancestor or group of ancestors. And, again, you did not answer the question: what was the design point of creating all those species that went extinct? In fact, your insistence that creatures like Lucy and the others are NOT human ancestors means their creation seems to have had no point at all.JVL
May 24, 2021
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JVL- Do you research Lucy was an ape, there are humans and there are apes , there are no in between`s. If you disagree with this please show me on definitive scientific test to show how any fossil can be shown to be our ancestor , not speculation but test.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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Marfin and Bornagain77: That was just one specimen of a hominid skeleton (not as far from modern humans as some but it is very complete) whose differences from modern humans are enough to classify it as a separate species, Homo ergaster (which is in the Wikipedia article excerpt reproduced above). Here's a discussion of a much earlier hominid, Australopithecus afarensis (the famous Lucy) which also could not be mistaken for a variant of a modern human. And there are more. The point is: modern humans were not around at the time of Lucy so, from a design perspective, what was the point of all the homo sapien precursors which died out? If you're not happy considering the human ancestral line pick another. There's plenty to choose from. In all cases why create living creatures, some fairly intelligent, if they're just going to be allowed to go extinct? There used to be a lot more dinosaurs, they're mostly gone now. There haven't been living trilobites for quite a while now. Why create them in the first place? I'm not saying there isn't a design perspective explanation but I'd rather not guess what it is. So I asked some design proponents. So far, no one has answered the question except to say it's a 'theological' matter. Which doesn't sound like science to me.JVL
May 24, 2021
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JVL, via wikipedia, references the Turkana Boy. Yet JVL's own reference, in the very first paragraph no less, states that the fossil is a human skeleton and does not refer to the fossil as being some type of human/ape skeleton that is on its way to becoming human, i.e. "This specimen is the most complete early human skeleton ever found."
Turkana Boy Turkana Boy, also called Nariokotome Boy,[1] is the name given to fossil KNM-WT 15000,[nb 1] a nearly complete skeleton of a Homo ergaster (alternatively referred to as African Homo erectus) youth who lived at c. 1.5 to 1.6 million years ago. This specimen is the most complete early human skeleton ever found.[2] It was discovered in 1984 by Kamoya Kimeu on the bank of the Nariokotome River near Lake Turkana in Kenya.[3][4] Estimates of the individual's age at death range from 7 to 11 years old.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_Boy
As to Homo erectus in general, a fairly recent article stated that, "If you bumped into a Homo erectus in the street you might not recognise them as being very different from you. You'd see a certain "human-ness" in the stance, and his or her size and shape might be similar to yours."
A snapshot of our mysterious ancestor Homo erectus - JANUARY 21, 2019 Excerpt: If you bumped into a Homo erectus in the street you might not recognise them as being very different from you. You'd see a certain "human-ness" in the stance, and his or her size and shape might be similar to yours. https://phys.org/news/2019-01-snapshot-mysterious-ancestor-homo-erectus.html Homo erectus: The Ape Man That Wasn't - Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. - Sep 30, 2019 The archaic human species Homo erectus has been portrayed as an important ape-to-man transitional link. However, these fossils don’t provide any real evidence of evolution. Many paleontologists and a majority of creationists think their unusual features are nothing more than variants of human traits and not transitional at all…. Not only is the H. erectus fossil record fragmentary and incomplete, but the bulk of the data indicates this category is simply a variant of the human kind. As mentioned above, so-called archaic H. erectus traits can still be found in humans today. Even many evolutionists recognize this. A recent article stated, “If you bumped into a Homo erectus in the street you might not recognise them as being very different from you.”11 https://www.icr.org/article/homo-erectus-the-ape-man-that-wasnt
Here are a few more notes that find Homo erectus to be far less compelling as a transitional fossil than Darwinists have falsely imagined it to be:
Do racial assumptions prevent recognizing Homo erectus as fully human? - June 22, 2018 Excerpt: However, the problem for evolutionary theorists gets worse because recent evidence shows that Homo erectus had a large cultural inventory greater than the Tasmanians. Homo erectus were capable of all of the following (Rupe, 72): Boat-building and sailing Language and reasoning Jewelry making Fire making Bone and stone tools Coordinated hunting Kinship and family structures Soci-ethical standards The evidence is clear from cultural inventory that Homo erectus was human and it is, in part, a cultural bias that prevents ND Splitters from recognizing their humanity.. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/do-racial-assumptions-prevent-recognizing-homo-erectus-as-fully-human/ The Evolution of Man: What do We Really Know? Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig – 21 August 2019 Excerpt: Homo erectus – long thought to be one of the links between Homo sapiens and perhaps one of the species of Australopithecus – definitely belongs to Homo sapiens. After a careful examination of the evidence (pp. 55-74), Rupe and Sanford present the following table of the artifacts and skills of this group of intelligent humans (2019, p. 74): • Watercraft assembly and sailing against an ocean current • Language, speech, communication • Reasoning, foresight, planning, ingenuity • Bead and pendant manufacture/necklaces • Cordage/knot-making • Manufacture of diverse stone and bone implements • Controlled use of fire and hearths of stones (fire places) • Catching, skinning, and cleaning fish • Cooking food • Occupational floors/living spaces • Petroglyphs, figurines, paint (red ochre), art • Woodworking • Coordinated hunting • Butchering, skinning, and transporting large game • Manufacturing clothing from skins (possibly sewing) • Production of fibers and resins • Kinship/family structure • Care for old and weak individuals48 Just a note on the often quoted lower brain size of Homo sapiens erectus (as I prefer to call these groups of human beings): His cranial capacities range from 727 to more than 1,200 cc49 – average 940 cc. Interestingly, his brain size is fully overlapped by that of normal (non-pathological) adult modern humans, which ranges from 624 cc (Daniel Lyon) to 2012 cc (Ivan Turgenev) – average 1345 cc (gender and age not considered). Cranial capacity of literature Nobel laureate Anatole France was 933 cc. Although there are still some evolutionary voices ranking Homo erectus as a link between the controversial Homo habilis (“handyman”) and/or some other so far unknown ancestor (including candidates from the genus Australopithecus) and Homo sapiens – according to many of the best modern paleoanthropologists Homo erectus is Homo sapiens. “There is strong evidence that the bones commonly referred to as Homo erectus are fully human individuals who suffered from various pathologies associated with such things as inbreeding, mutation, teratogens (developmental abnormalities), etc. Claims that Erectus was a subhuman species are clearly contested among leading evolutionary paleo-experts. While some insist Erectus was morphologically distinct from modern man, others point out that Erectus morphology overlaps extensively with modern humans – and so Erectus should be reclassified as Homo sapiens. While some claim they were our progenitors, others acknowledge that they coexisted and interbred with anatomically modern Homo sapiens.”50 http://www.weloennig.de/HumanEvolution.pdf Review of “Contested Bones” (Part 4 – Chapter 4 “Homo erectus”) – video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rtK0ScrQn4&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNU_twNBjopIqyFOwo_bTkXm&index=4
The fossil evidence for the presumed evolution of humans from some type of ape-like ancestor, and as JVL's own reference makes clear, is not nearly as compelling as JVL apparently falsely imagines it to be. Hey, don't take my word for it, Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig quotes many leading paleontologists who also find the presumed fossil evidence for human evolution to be far from compelling.
Neo-Darwinism and the Big Bang of Man’s Origin – Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig – February 25, 2020 Excerpt: “There is a popular image of human evolution that you’ll find all over the place, from the backs of cereal packets to the advertisement for expensive scientific equipment. On the left of the picture there’s an ape — …. On the right, a man … Between the two is a succession of figures that become ever more like humans … Our progress from ape to human looks so smooth, so tidy. It’s such a beguiling image that even the experts are loath to let it go. But it is an illusion.” – Bernard Wood, Bernard Wood, Professor of Human Origins at George Washington University, “Who are we?” New Scientist 176 2366: 44-47. 26 October 2002:,,, A Big Bang at Man’s Origin? To repeat the key points quoted above (from Darwinists themselves), we may emphasize that 1. “differences exist on an unusual scale” 2. “Homo sapiens appears […] distinctive and unprecedented” 3. “There is certainly no evidence to support the notion that we gradually became what we inherently are over an extended period, in either the physical or the intellectual sense.” 4. “…we evidently came by our unusual anatomical structure and capacities very recently.” 5. “…a convincing hypothesis for the origin of Homo remains elusive” 6. “[W]e should not expect to find a series of intermediate fossil forms with decreasingly divergent big toes and, at the same time, a decreasing number of apelike features and an increasing number of modern human features.” 7. “No gradual series of changes in earlier australopithecine populations clearly leads to the new species [Homo sapiens], and no australopithecine species is obviously transitional.” 8. “…early H. sapiens was significantly and dramatically different from earlier and penecontemporary [as well as coexisting] australopithecines in virtually every element of its skeleton and every remnant of its behavior.” 9. “Our interpretation is that the changes are sudden and interrelated,” “a genetic revolution.”,,, “…a rather minor structural innovation at the DNA level” appears to be, for all that can be known at present, a rather unsatisfactory proposal for a comparable origin of some 696 new features (out of 1065) which distinguish man from chimpanzees, 711 from orang, 680 from gorilla, 948 from Gibbon (Hylobathes), presupposing a similar magnitude of different anatomical and other features (“distinctive and unprecedented”) from his supposed animal ancestor, “our closest extinct kin,” not to speak of 15.6% differences on the DNA level between man and his alleged closest cousin, the chimpanzee, which means, in actual numbers, more than 450 million bp differences of the some 3 billion bp constituting the genomes overall.28,,, Almost any larger science museum around the globe presents a series of connecting links between extinct apes and humans such as Homo erectus, Homo habilis, Australopithecus afarensis (“Lucy”), Ardipithecus ramidus, Orrorin tugensis and others. For a brief overview on such assumed links see Lönnig (2019).38 I include there a series of references to papers and books that do not simply presuppose evolution and neo-Darwinism as the final truth on the origin of species without any scientific alternative (as is common practice nowadays). Instead, these works critically discuss the relevant details, showing in depth the untenability of the evolutionary scenarios usually given to these would-be links generally put forward as indisputable scientific facts…. 98.5 Percent Human/Chimp DNA Identity? Although long disproved, the assertion that human and chimp DNA display approximately 98.5 percent identity is still forwarded in many papers and books. The present state of the art has been clearly articulated by Richard Buggs, Professor of Evolutionary Genomics at Queen Mary University of London. He asks, “What does the data say today in 2018, and how can it be described to the public in an adequate manner?” Key answer: “The total percentage of the human genome that I can know for sure has one-to-one orthology with the chimp genome is 84.4 percent” (“our minimum lower bound”)39, i.e., more than 450 million differences (15 percent of 3 billion bp = 450 million). https://evolutionnews.org/2020/02/neo-darwinism-and-the-big-bang-of-mans-origin/ Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, (retired) Senior Scientist (Biology), Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research, Emeritus, Cologne, Germany.
So again, the presumed fossil evidence for human evolution is not nearly as compelling as JVL, apparently, falsely imagines it to be. And unrestrained imagination, contrary to what Darwinists believe, simply does not equate to actual scientific evidence for their grandiose claims.
“We have all seen the canonical parade of apes, each one becoming more human. We know that, as a depiction of evolution, this line-up is tosh (i.e. nonsense). Yet we cling to it. Ideas of what human evolution ought to have been like still colour our debates.” Henry Gee, editor of Nature (478, 6 October 2011, page 34, doi:10.1038/478034a),
Verse:
Genesis 5:2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them "Mankind" when they were created.
bornagain77
May 24, 2021
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JVL- Just to push home my point KNM-ER 1470 ,1481 & 1590 are pretty much anatomically modern homo sapiens and are all contemporaneous to WT15000 , so just as there are different shape`s and sizes of humans now,they were different shapes and sizes of humans then .Marfin
May 24, 2021
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JVL - So we have what is called in the article you posted an early human ,whats your point. The fact that variety of humans existed in the past just like they do now eg. pygmy's and the massi tribes of Kenya proves what exactly.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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Marfin: Lets get away from generalities , give me the specific so called hominid fossil you are referring to, and I will answer your question. How about this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_BoyJVL
May 24, 2021
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JVL- Lets get away from generalities , give me the specific so called hominid fossil you are referring to, and I will answer your question.Marfin
May 24, 2021
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“in biology, evolution is still the best game in town“ Actually, it’s “in materialist philosophy evolution is the only game in town.”tgpeeler
May 23, 2021
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