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Nick Matzke: All True Scotsman Believe in Darwinian Evolution

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I am often amused by the Darwinists’ all-too-frequent use of the “no true Scotsman’ logical fallacy. Never heard of that fallacy you say? Let me explain.  Wikipedia defines the fallacy this way:

No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.

Anthony Flew advanced the term using this example:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the “Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again”. Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing”. The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, “No true Scotsman would do such a thing”

In summary, the fallacy takes this form:

Douglas: “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”
McDonald: “I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge.”
Douglas: “Then you are not a true Scotsman.”

The point is that Douglas made an unjustified assertion. Instead of backing off his assertion when he is shown that it was false, he doubles down and makes up ad hoc self-serving categories.

Nick Matzke, like many Darwinists, is a master of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Yesterday he treated us with a particularly exquisite application of the fallacy that was a wonder of sheer breathtaking hubris. Let’s see how he did it.

In this post Dr. Torley notes that Professor James M. Tour, one of the most prominent and respected chemists in the entire world, is a Darwin skeptic.

Nick responds:

Wow, your blogpost is a particularly silly comment on a particularly silly article. A guy whose field is not biology, and who shows absolutely no evidence of having seriously engaged with actual evolutionary biologists or their literature, and who appears to not have the first clue about how biologists would define “macroevolution”, spouts off on a webpage, and this is supposed to be a serious argument?

To which Dr. Torley responds:

Nick, he’s one of the world’s top ten chemists! I would think that he knows more than a few eminent biologists.

To which Nick responds:

He shows no evidence of that, either directly or in terms of showing a sign of having a clue about the field of evolutionary biology.

And what is Nick’s evidence that Dr. Tour has no clue about the field of evolutionary biology? Well, he’s a Darwin skeptic of course. Therefore, by definition he does not have a clue, no matter how eminent his credentials, no matter how cogent his arguments. In the form of the fallacy as outlined above, Nick’s argument goes like this:

Nick: All true scientists believe in Darwinian evolution.
Vincent: Dr. Tour, one of the top ten most cited chemists on the planet, is a Darwin skeptic.
Nick: Then Dr. Tour is no true scientist.

News to Nick: Getting red in the face and stamping your feet (metaphorically speaking) is not an argument. You do not get to decide who is and who is not a true scientist.  Perhaps you believe you sit ex cathedra in the chair of Saint Charles the Bearded, and your pronouncements on who has a clue and who does not have a clue are infallible and binding on the faithful.  But I do not count myself among the Darwinist faithful and your pronoucements are not binding on me.  Believe me, I would like to among the faithful.  Wouldn’t it be wonderful to swim with the cultural current instead of against it?  But it is impossble for me to convert, because no matter how hard I try I just cannot muster enough blind unreasoned (and unreasonable) faith to believe that everything came from nothing and that matter spontaneously reconstituted itself from mud into space stations.

 

Comments
"I just want to emphasize this point here further that the core foundation of chemistry is so entrenched in Atomic Theory its almost impossible not to believe in Atomic Theory and be considered an Chemist much less a “qualified” critic outside the scope of Chemistry such as [pseudo-non-chemist]Tour. As far as they’re concerned you’re just a crackpot who hasn’t been paying attention in school. Damned either way." Hahahahaha...this is pathetic, Nick, to compare Atomic Theory with Darwinism.computerist
February 19, 2013
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I just want to emphasize this point here further that the core foundation of Evolutionary Biology is so entrenched in Darwinism its almost impossible not to believe in Darwinism and be considered an Evolutionary Biologist much less a “qualified” critic outside the scope of Evolutionary Biology such as Tour. As far as they’re concerned you’re just a crackpot who hasn’t been paying attention in school. Damned either way.
I just want to emphasize this point here further that the core foundation of chemistry is so entrenched in Atomic Theory its almost impossible not to believe in Atomic Theory and be considered an Chemist much less a “qualified” critic outside the scope of Chemistry such as [pseudo-non-chemist]Tour. As far as they’re concerned you’re just a crackpot who hasn’t been paying attention in school. Damned either way.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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‘News to Nick: Getting red in the face and stamping your feet (metaphorically speaking) is not an argument.’ It is if you think God’s rotten, and you’re not going to believe in him, because he’s nasty. So there!
That's interesting that you made this up with your imagination, because I said nothing about God, and I'm not an atheist.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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The analogy is not quite precise, because (presumably) erosion is understood at the chemical level. (The Grand Canyon is mostly limestone and sandstone, so I guess it would be explained in terms of the electrostatic interactions between silicon (quartz), calcium (calcite), and water, right?) So Tour would say, “we really do understand the formation of the Grand Canyon, because we understand it at the chemical level.”
That would apply if chemical erosion was the only process, but a lot of erosion is due to e.g. physical abrasion, freeze/thaw, etc. And an actual explanation of the Grand Canyon would involve the local tectonic history (the gradual uplift of the plateau), the slope and the amount and speed of the water over time, etc. Saying "I haz chemistry, explain it in chemistry or your field is highly questionable" would be laughed at by geologists, and justifiably so. Ditto with macroevolution and biologists.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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Mr Matzke, thanks for providing so much fodder for thought,,, Do you consider Didier Raoult a 'true Scotsman'?
A New Model for Evolution: A Rhizome - Didier Raoult - May 2010 Excerpt: Thus we cannot currently identify a single common ancestor for the gene repertoire of any organism.,,, Overall, it is now thought that there are no two genes that have a similar history along the phylogenic tree.,,,Therefore the representation of the evolutionary pathway as a tree leading to a single common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of one or more genes provides an incorrect representation of the stability and hierarchy of evolution. Finally, genome analyses have revealed that a very high proportion of genes are likely to be newly created,,, and that some genes are only found in one organism (named ORFans). These genes do not belong to any phylogenic tree and represent new genetic creations. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-model-for-evolution-rhizome.html Didier Raoult, who authored the preceding paper, has been referred to as 'Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France'. Here is what he had to say about Darwinism: The "Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France" Is a Furious Darwin Doubter - March 2012 Excerpt: Controversial and outspoken, Raoult last year published a popular science book that flat-out declares that Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/the_most_produc057081.html
bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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I might add to Darwinism not spearheading discovery, but as is obvious from the recent Junk DNA fiasco, that Darwinism actually impedes scientific progress,,, On the roles of repetitive DNA elements in the context of a unified genomic-epigenetic system. - Richard Sternberg Excerpt: It is argued throughout that a new conceptual framework is needed for understanding the roles of repetitive DNA in genomic/epigenetic systems, and that neo-Darwinian “narratives” have been the primary obstacle to elucidating the effects of these enigmatic components of chromosomes. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12547679 As well it is now known that many of the hereditary diseases that afflict humans arise from the large 'Junk DNA' regions: International HoloGenomics Society - "Junk DNA Diseases" Excerpt: A primary goal of IHGS is to elevate awareness of the fact that "some, if not all" hereditary diseases do not stop at the boundaries of "genes" http://www.junkdna.com/junkdna_diseases.html Excerpt: "elaborated in more detail in my “Obituary of Junk DNA “ http://www.junkdna.com/#obituary_of_junk_dna” uncounted millions of people died miserable deaths while scientists were looking for the “gene” causing their illnesses – and were not even supposed to look anywhere but under the lamp illuminating only 1.3% of the genome (the genes)." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-discovery-institute-needs-to-be-destroyed/#comment-357177bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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Mr Matzke, if Darwinism is so obviously true, as you hold it to be, then why is it that Darwinism is always added as a narrative gloss after a new discovery is made instead of actually spearheading the discoveries in the first place (Such as General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics spearhead new discoveries)
Why Do We Invoke Darwin? By Philip Skell - August 29, 2005 [T]he modern form of Darwin's theory has been raised to its present high status because it's said to be the cornerstone of modern experimental biology. But is that correct? "While the great majority of biologists would probably agree with Theodosius Dobzhansky's dictum that 'nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,' most can conduct their work quite happily without particular reference to evolutionary ideas," A.S. Wilkins, editor of the journal BioEssays, wrote in 2000. "Evolution would appear to be the indispensable unifying idea and, at the same time, a highly superfluous one." I would tend to agree. Certainly, my own research with antibiotics during World War II received no guidance from insights provided by Darwinian evolution. Nor did Alexander Fleming's discovery of bacterial inhibition by penicillin. I recently asked more than 70 eminent researchers if they would have done their work differently if they had thought Darwin's theory was wrong. The responses were all the same: No. I also examined the outstanding biodiscoveries of the past century: the discovery of the double helix; the characterization of the ribosome; the mapping of genomes; research on medications and drug reactions; improvements in food production and sanitation; the development of new surgeries; and others. I even queried biologists working in areas where one would expect the Darwinian paradigm to have most benefited research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I found that Darwin's theory had provided no discernible guidance, but was brought in, after the breakthroughs, as an interesting narrative gloss. http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/16649/title/Why-Do-We-Invoke-Darwin-/
bornagain77
February 19, 2013
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Nick Matzke - The way I read the comments of Dr. Tour is you would qualify as "anyone". So why don't you sit down with him and answer his query
Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.
Think of the service you would provide if you would just explain it to him. Oh, but I would be willing to bet you don't really understand it either.JDH
February 19, 2013
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"Ask yourself, is it possible to be an Evolutionary Biologist and not be an Evolutionary Biologist?" I just want to emphasize this point here further that the core foundation of Evolutionary Biology is so entrenched in Darwinism its almost impossible not to believe in Darwinism and be considered an Evolutionary Biologist much less a "qualified" critic outside the scope of Evolutionary Biology such as Tour. As far as they're concerned you're just a crackpot who hasn't been paying attention in school. Damned either way.computerist
February 19, 2013
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In re: (12) The analogy is not quite precise, because (presumably) erosion is understood at the chemical level. (The Grand Canyon is mostly limestone and sandstone, so I guess it would be explained in terms of the electrostatic interactions between silicon (quartz), calcium (calcite), and water, right?) So Tour would say, "we really do understand the formation of the Grand Canyon, because we understand it at the chemical level." On the other hand, Tour seems to be saying, "since macroevolutionary processes are not understood at the level of chemistry, no one really understands them at all." I suppose I'm a bit surprised to hear Uncommon Descent contributors endorsing such extreme reductionism.Kantian Naturalist
February 19, 2013
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'News to Nick: Getting red in the face and stamping your feet (metaphorically speaking) is not an argument.' It is if you think God's rotten, and you're not going to believe in him, because he's nasty. So there! But isn't it strange, our atheist chums - I mean the mainstream wilder fringe* - can only obsess about what they charge is an omnipotent God's wilful cruelty. Yet, any devout Christian, or one who has personally experienced, for example, a dramatic conversion, as many people have, finds it difficult to believe even God could be so wonderful and loving. We talk about what we know, they talk about what they wish to be the case. * When is the mainstream a fringe? When the follow the money, at the expense of reason, etc.Axel
February 19, 2013
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Here's another thing equivalent to what Tour is saying:
I don't trust chemistry, because I heard that chemicals are bad for you. And you can't trust chemists, because they hold to chemical doctrine and feel threatened and so they must revert to authority in their own field in order to protect themselves and their career. Its a natural self-defense mechanism, but it has nothing to do with science. Oh, and don't ask me to do anything dreary that involves actual work, like taking a course in chemistry or at least reading a textbook. I'm going to pronounce on the topic without doing any of that. Why get educated before dismissing another field based upon reading a teeny bit more than what you can learn off the back of a cereal box over breakfast?
Here's what the blog fans of the above guy would say:
This guy is clearly an authority on chemistry and his opinion on chemistry deserves a lot of respect and uncritical attention. Anyone who criticizes his authority or our invocation of it is clearly just a shill for the bankrupt field of chemistry.
NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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esc2, How much does Tour know about ecology and biogeography? These are (some of the things) crucial to understanding macroevolution. Here, I'll be Tour for a moment: Give me a chemical explanation of the Grand Canyon, or I guess I'm justified in thinking that no one knows how it originated. Oh, and don't expect me to talk to any actual geologists or do any serious personal education in the topic.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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"It seemed like he was making the assertion that only an evolutionary biologist could be viewed as an authority in the discussion, and yet isn’t evolutionary research(like so many science disciplines) a multidiscipinary enterprise?" Good point. By default whoever makes a career out of Evolution should not be trusted, period. Evolutionists who hold to the Darwinian doctrine feel threatened and so they must revert to authority in their own field in order to protect themselves and their career. Its a natural self-defense mechanism, but it has nothing to do with science. Ask yourself, is it possible to be an Evolutionary Biologist and not be an Evolutionary Biologist?computerist
February 19, 2013
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I was fascinated yesterday by N. Matzke's response to the previous post. It seemed like he was making the assertion that only an evolutionary biologist could be viewed as an authority in the discussion, and yet isn't evolutionary research(like so many science disciplines) a multidiscipinary enterprise? In particular, isn't abiogenesis or ab initio molecular generation an area which particularly depends on organic chemistry - Dr. Tour's area of expertise? My initial thought upon reading the post was that when Dr. Tour states that 'if anyone should be able to understand evolution because I make molecules for a living' and poses the question 'does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution' he is very clearly stating that he is commenting on an area which is a critical underpinning of evolution within which he is an authority. My question to N.Matzke wouldn't deal with fallacies of one type or another but rather on what basis does he make the claim that a noted organic chemist isn't qualified to comment on the areas of evolution which depend on organic chemistry? This seemed a very strange (even outrageous) claim. My thought is that the specialist (the organic chemist) would be more qualified to comment on the areas of a multidiscipinary theory (evolution) than a generalist or individual qualified in a different foscused area (evolutionary biologist). What am I missing?ecs2
February 19, 2013
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When it comes to evolution, everyone is a layman as no one knows how many mutations it takes to get a new body part nor a new body plan. No one seems to know much of anything. No one even seems to know how to test the claims of the "theory" of evolution.Joe
February 19, 2013
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So, Barry -- in your mind, someone who says "I do not have anything substantive to say about it. I am a layman on the subject. Although I have read about a half dozen books on the debate, maybe a dozen, and though I can speak authoritatively on complex chemical synthesis, I am not qualified to enter the public discussion on evolution vs. creation" is really worth treating as an authority?NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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"And on what basis did you advance these false assertions?" If he had said, "I had several hours of discussion with evolutionary biologists X, Y, and Z", that would be direct evidence of engagement with evolutionary biologists. Instead, one gets the sense that he has sprung his questions randomly on people who are not any more experts in evolutionary biology than he is. If he had said, "Now, evolutionary biologists typically defined 'macroevolution' as evolution above the level of individual gene pools, including speciation, lineage dynamics (rates of speciation and extinction), mass exinctions, adaptive radiations, and mapping the character changes that lead to major innovations on a phylogeny", then that would some evidence of having a clue about the field of evolutionary biology. Instead, we get weirdness about wanting a "chemical explanation", which is approximately as weird as requesting a chemical explanation of the Grand Canyon.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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Nick @ 4. Pointing out that Dr. Tour is not a specialist in the field of evolutionary biology is, of course, fair game, for whatever it is worth. And if you had stopped there I would have no quarrel with your comments. But you did not stop there. Instead, you went much further and said Dr. Tour “shows absolutely no evidence of having seriously engaged with actual evolutionary biologists or their literature, and who appears to not have the first clue about how biologists would define ‘macroevolution.’ Then you said: “He shows no evidence of that, either directly or in terms of showing a sign of having a clue about the field of evolutionary biology.” Every particular of both of your assertions is manifestly false. And on what basis did you advance these false assertions? On this basis: “If he were a true scientist with a clue he would agree with me” That’s the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, pure and simple as it gets.Barry Arrington
February 19, 2013
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But Nick did not say that. He only questionned Tour’s knowledge of biology.
Correct. But apparently it is difficult to get even very basic things straight around here. Anyone with a sense of academic honesty would retract the statement made in the OP.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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And what is Nick’s evidence that Dr. Tour has no clue about the field of evolutionary biology? Well, he’s a Darwin skeptic of course. Therefore, by definition he does not have a clue, no matter how eminent his credentials, no matter how cogent his arguments.
Heck, Tour himself says he doesn't know what he's talking about! Have a look at the very first paragraph!
Layman’s Reflections on Evolution and Creation. An Insider’s View of the Academy Assuming that I have something significant to contribute to the evolution vs. creation debate, many ask me to speak and write concerning my thoughts on the topic. However, I do not have anything substantive to say about it. I am a layman on the subject. Although I have read about a half dozen books on the debate, maybe a dozen, and though I can speak authoritatively on complex chemical synthesis, I am not qualified to enter the public discussion on evolution vs. creation. So please don’t ask me to be the speaker or debater at your event, and think carefully about asking me for an interview because I will probably not give you the profound quotations that you seek.
Sounds like he's been contacted by more than one creationist/IDist desperate to recruit his authority, despite his admitted ignorance on the topic.NickMatzke_UD
February 19, 2013
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Nick: Then Dr. Tour is no true scientist.
But Nick did not say that. He only questionned Tour's knowledge of biology.Neil Rickert
February 19, 2013
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"Professor James M. Tour, one of the most prominent and respected chemists in the entire world, is a Darwin skeptic..." ...and he also rejects Intelligent Design (Big-ID) theory. Luckily it was not stated that because Dr. James M. Tour rejects Darwinian evolution he must therefore also be an Intelligent Design advocate. That would have been yet another 'true Scotsman' fallacy! ;)Gregory
February 19, 2013
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Ahah! It's the no true space station fallacy!Mung
February 19, 2013
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