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Non-probabilistic design arguments

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Biochemist Michael Behe has stated:

“A man from a primitive culture who sees an automobile might guess that it was powered by the wind or by an antelope hidden under the car, but when he opens up the hood and sees the engine he immediately realizes that it was designed. In the same way biochemistry has opened up the cell to examine what makes it run and we see that it, too, was designed.”

One needs no probabilistic calculation to infer design before a car or cell. Why — as Behe says — “he immediately realizes that it was designed”? Because such dynamic systems show clear hallmarks of organization. Some of them are:

(1) hierarchy of devices and functions (see my previous post);
(2) hierarchy of tasks and actions, when the system is in operation;
(3) implementation of the control-power paradigm (see here);
(4) implementation of the communication paradigm between sub-systems.

Why organization implies intelligent design? Because chance and necessity cannot create organization in principle.

In fact chance is simply a brute force of un-correlation. Example, in coin tossing any outcome is unrelated to the previous ones. Since organization eminently implies relations, how can a producer of non relations create it? Not only chance can do nothing to organize, even it destroys organization if it enter into the systems.

The same, necessity (aka natural laws) per se cannot be the cause of organization because they don’t potentially contain it. Natural laws are relatively simple mathematical equations. These equations don’t implicitly contain the specifications of the least organized system, as the simple function y=x^2 doesn’t contain, say, Riemann’s zeta function, which is of a far higher order than the quadratic one.

Neither the couple natural laws + randomness can create organization. In fact natural laws are a processor. If randomness provides garbage in input to it this processor necessarily outputs garbage.

The usual objections to this non-probabilistic ID argument are:

Objection #1: “This ID argument may be ok for the machines but it doesn’t apply to biological systems because they self-reproduce”.
Reply: On the contrary, the ID inference applies to biology to greater reason, because self-reproduction needs organization of the highest order. That was mathematically proved by J. von Neumann more than half century ago.

Objection #2: “In biology natural selection creates organization by optimizing random variations”.
Reply: Natural selection is simply an additional post processor in the chain of chance and necessity. I said above they provide garbage, so natural selection cannot produce new organization from random variations, because again “garbage in garbage out”.

Objection #3: “Non-probabilistic ID arguments are not scientific because they aren’t quantitative”.
Reply: Science is full of non quantitative arguments. Even entire fields of mathematics are not quantitative. Also, in general, all quantitative arguments are necessarily based on non quantitative assumptions.

Objection #4: “Simple rules can create complex patterns”.
Reply: These patterns have nothing to do with the least organized system.

Objection #5: “Your arguments are only philosophical assumptions”.
Reply: No, they are pure technical, engineering issues.

Objection #6: “Devices, functions, tasks, control-power, communication are only ideas in your mind”.
Reply: No, they are real things you see with your eyes. You deny evidence.

Objection #7: “Organization is not a well defined concept”.
Reply: It is so well defined and known that all technology is based on it. In industry the descriptions of their internal organization are the starting point for the construction of all engineering products. More, some measures of complexity of a system indeed are based on its technical descriptions.

Objection #8: “Natural laws are able to produce ordered configurations”.
Reply: Organization is fully different and far higher than simple order.

Objection #9: “We know that a car is designed only because we see its designers”.
Reply: If we find a machine on Mars we infer design also without knowing its designers.

Objection #10: “Organization makes sense only if you can measure it”.
Reply: No, precise quantitative measures are only an add-on for a design inference in most cases. Similarly, to say that a woman is very beautiful I don’t need to measure her body exactly. It is true — as Norbert Wiener said — that “The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree” but recognition of organization is possible also without precise measures of the amount of information (see here).

Comments
S.A. And importantly, they also programmed the system such that the faster bots would reproduce more. I guess that’s how it works in the real world of evolution, right? Adapa: That’s exactly how it works in the real world of evolution. Animals in a population that have a beneficial trait which gives them a higher probability of reproducing than their neighbors reproduce more. That’s how the beneficial trait spreads through the population. It’s science 101 guys. It shouldn’t be this hard for you.
So then, as an intelligent designer I could manipulate the environment as part of my desired outcome for faster animals. Great. Thanks for the tip. Of course, we still have all those other details to work out, such as how the animals got there in the first place, what level of processes and systems I have to come up with, and when, etc, etc. Being an intelligent designer of a biosphere can be hard work!Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Andre What does hurricanes have to do with living systems? Again the issue is not evolution Adapa, its the unguided claim you make…. simulations are biased period. They are not fair because the program is designed….. That doesn't even begin to make sense. Just because a natural process is simulated on a computer that somehow makes the simulation not "fair" (whatever that means)? Why don't you show us how the walking robot evolution simulation wasn't "fair". Back up the big talk.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa: Do you think when the NOAA produces a hurricane simulator program to study the wind patters that is evidence that real hurricanes are designed?
Not necessarily. (Although, sometimes there may be an articular "hand" in them. Who knows?) But the meteorological systems by which they emerge may be designed. How many hurricanes do you see on Mars?
Joe: The program gave the robot the ability to actively search for solutions. Adapa: No it didn’t. It gave the robots the ability to mutate randomly then allowed selection to keep the ones that worked best for the next generation. They weren’t actively searching for solutions.
Some well-organized, intelligently designed processes are allowing whatever they are doing to do it. I haven't had time to read the details, but I wonder how much intelligently designed active information is present in those robotic systems. And I wonder how much damage I could do to those intelligently designed robotic systems before they failed to operate at all. If someone has time to dig out the details, I would be interested.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Joe The program gave the robot the ability to actively search for solutions. No it didn't. It gave the robots the ability to mutate randomly then allowed selection to keep the ones that worked best for the next generation. They weren't actively searching for solutions. Since you still don't understand the basics try reading the actual paper provided in the linked article. With your skill set it should only take 3 minutes, right? :)Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Silver Asiatic And importantly, they also programmed the system such that the faster bots would reproduce more. I guess that’s how it works in the real world of evolution, right? That's exactly how it works in the real world of evolution. Animals in a population that have a beneficial trait which gives them a higher probability of reproducing than their neighbors reproduce more. That's how the beneficial trait spreads through the population. It's science 101 guys. It shouldn't be this hard for you.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa:
We actually understand how evolution works too Joe.
And yet you can't say how many mutations it takes to produce specific biological structures. You can't even say what makes an organism what it is. And you can't even find the elusive "theory of evolution". And it's strange that no one can model unguided evolution seeing that you know how it works. It's as if you are making it all up. Gee, I wonder why?Joe
November 18, 2014
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Emergent... the Darwin code word for magic......Andre
November 18, 2014
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Adapa:
he walking robot processes were unguided.
Prove it.
None of the different walking styles were pre-designed.
They don't have to be. The program gave the robot the ability to actively search for solutions. That is what it means to be designed to evolve and evolve by design.Joe
November 18, 2014
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And importantly, they also programmed the system such that the faster bots would reproduce more.
I guess that's how it works in the real world of evolution, right?Silver Asiatic
November 18, 2014
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What does hurricanes have to do with living systems? Again the issue is not evolution Adapa, its the unguided claim you make.... simulations are biased period. They are not fair because the program is designed..... Seriously you can't be that ignorant.Andre
November 18, 2014
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Joe As for hurricanes, well we actually understand how they work. We actually understand how evolution works too Joe. Most of us do anyway. That you don't isn't our problem.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Joe But are they unguided evolutionary processes? Yes. The walking robot processes were unguided. Intelligent design is not anti-evolution and is OK with things being designed to evolve and evolving by design. The walking ability that evolved in this experiment was neither. None of the different walking styles were pre-designed. They all were emergent behavior.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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In fact chance is simply a brute force of un-correlation. Example, in coin tossing any outcome is unrelated to the previous ones. Since organization eminently implies relations, how can a producer of non relations create it? Not only chance can do nothing to organize, even it destroys organization if it enter into the systems.
I'd call that irrefutable. The bold text is very clear, although some would say that chance patterns can show correlations. But in organization the relations include dependencies. This is especially true where we see relations in a hierarchy. As to the argument that it is "not measurable", I think it's true to say that "if it is observable, it is measurable". In this case, organization is observable given the definitions you provided.
(1) hierarchy of devices and functions (see my previous post); (2) hierarchy of tasks and actions, when the system is in operation; (3) implementation of the control-power paradigm (see here); (4) implementation of the communication paradigm between sub-systems.
Silver Asiatic
November 18, 2014
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Adapa, The programs used are not copied from the real world. They are search heuristics actively searching for solutions. As for hurricanes, well we actually understand how they work.Joe
November 18, 2014
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Andre Simulations are intelligently designed, you can manipulate the system to do anything because you can guide the “evolution” The evolutionary processes used in simulations like these are not designed. They are merely copied from real world empirically observed evolutionary processes. Speeding up the processes so they can be observed in real time doesn't change the functioning of the processes. Do you think when the NOAA produces a hurricane simulator program to study the wind patters that is evidence that real hurricanes are designed? Sigh is right.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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#13 Andre Good point. However, couldn't it be that they are certain of it because they know almost everything and whatever they don't know they can figure it out right away? Hey, why not? Remember, some folks are really really smart, ok? :) Did you see the quote in post #8? Did you notice the word 'designed' in that text? That quote is not from an OP in this UD blog. It's from a recent article in a known biology journal. Doesn't that quoted statement raise some fundamental questions?Dionisio
November 18, 2014
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Adapa:
Here is a good example where computer generated “soft robots” using just simple evolutionary processes evolved different ways to walk.
But are they unguided evolutionary processes? Intelligent design is not anti-evolution and is OK with things being designed to evolve and evolving by design.Joe
November 18, 2014
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Adapa Simulations are intelligently designed, you can manipulate the system to do anything because you can guide the "evolution" sigh.........Andre
November 18, 2014
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niwrad Why organization implies intelligent design? Because chance and necessity cannot create organization in principle. Chance alone can't do it. Necessity (laws) alone can't do it. But iterative processes that combine both chance and necessity with selection driven feedback do it quite nicely. Evolution is just such a process. It's been empirically observed to produce both increased complexity and organization in life forms. There are numerous evolution simulating programs readily available where you can watch the combination of simple chance and laws produce all sorts of amazing and functional objects. Here is a good example where computer generated "soft robots" using just simple evolutionary processes evolved different ways to walk. Robot evolved walking
The algorithm devised by the researchers was fairly straightforward. As biological evolution has shown time and time again, a simple set of rules, along with a ton of patience, can produce some rather remarkable things. In this case, a research team led by Jeff Clune created an evolution simulator by endowing (relatively immobile) soft robots called soft-voxels with four basic building blocks to work with, namely muscle (shown in red), soft tissue support (teal), expanding and contracting muscles (green), and bone for hard support (blue). And importantly, they also programmed the system such that the faster bots would reproduce more. Speed, therefore, became a beneficial mutation (or adaptation) which served to increase a voxel's reproductive fitness. Once these parameters were set, all Clune and his team had to do was press the start button and let evolution do the rest.
Watch the video and learn.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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#9 link doesn't work. It was written incorrectly. My mistake. Sorry.Dionisio
November 18, 2014
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True story Dionisio, and here are the materialsts all running around proclaiming how biological systems originated but they like theists don't even know what causes lightning.... but they know for sure there ain't no God...... they are certain of it......Andre
November 18, 2014
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#11 Andre :)Dionisio
November 18, 2014
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Me_Think The superstitious people always blamed some god for lightning.... Surprise in 2014 we still don't know what causes it http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/08/lightning_strikes_what_causes_lightning_is_a_mystery_could_it_be_cosmic.html True story..... And God kinda cracks a joke with us in Job about it..... 3800 years ago he said and I quote Job 38:35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?"Andre
November 18, 2014
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Me Think:
So everyone at ID is okay with a 1 in a million success non-probabilistic detector ?
What are you talking about? Are you saying that forensic scientists and archaeologists are only correct 1 time in a million tries? Really?Joe
November 18, 2014
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check this outDionisio
November 18, 2014
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Across the nervous system, neurons form highly stereotypic patterns of synaptic connections that are designed to serve specific functions. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2014.08.029
Please, note that this quote is not from an OP in UD. :) Comments?Dionisio
November 18, 2014
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Joe @ 5 Wow ! So everyone at ID is okay with a 1 in a million success non-probabilistic detector ? Great, just chuck out CSI, dFSCI etc, this is way more refreshing.Me_Think
November 18, 2014
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LoL! @ Me Think with its unsupported tripe. A few centuries ago people thought Stonehenge was designed even though it was made from stones, which nature produces in abundance. And guess what? People of today think Stonehenge was designed also.Joe
November 18, 2014
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Few centuries ago people thought every thing - including natural phenomena - was designed (Devine). Weren't they wrong?Me_Think
November 18, 2014
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Can I suggest anybody who agrees with that Googles and/or YouTube for “Catweazle”
Seriously? Can I suggest that anybody who agrees with that Googles "seriously".Joe
November 18, 2014
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