Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Oh, you mean, there really is a bias in academe against common sense and rational thought?

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Jonathan Haidt decided, for some reason, to point out the obvious to a group of American academics recently, that they are overwhelmingly modern materialist statists (liberals).

He polled his audience at the San Antonio Convention Center, starting by asking how many considered themselves politically liberal. A sea of hands appeared, and Dr. Haidt estimated that liberals made up 80 percent of the 1,000 psychologists in the ballroom. When he asked for centrists and libertarians, he spotted fewer than three dozen hands. And then, when he asked for conservatives, he counted a grand total of three.

“This is a statistically impossible lack of diversity,” Dr. Haidt concluded, noting polls showing that 40 percent of Americans are conservative and 20 percent are liberal. In his speech and in an interview, Dr. Haidt argued that social psychologists are a “tribal-moral community” united by “sacred values” that hinder research and damage their credibility — and blind them to the hostile climate they’ve created for non-liberals.

Why anyone would bother pointing that out, I don’t know. It’s not a bias against conservatives, anyway; it’s a bias against rationality, which they don’t believe in. Our brains, remember, are shaped for fitness, not for truth. Indeed, these are the very people who channel Barney Rubble and Fred Flintstone for insights into human psychology, and anyone who doubts the validity of such “research” should just shut up and pay their taxes, right?

Well, his talk had attracted  John Tierney’s attention at the New York Times (February 7, 2007), who drew exactly the right conclusion (for modern statists and Darwinists):

“If a group circles around sacred values, they will evolve into a tribal-moral community,” he said. “They’ll embrace science whenever it supports their sacred values, but they’ll ditch it or distort it as soon as it threatens a sacred value.” It’s easy for social scientists to observe this process in other communities, like the fundamentalist Christians who embrace “intelligent design” while rejecting Darwinism.

[ … ]

For a tribal-moral community, the social psychologists in Dr. Haidt’s audience seemed refreshingly receptive to his argument. Some said he overstated how liberal the field is, but many agreed it should welcome more ideological diversity. A few even endorsed his call for a new affirmative-action goal: a membership that’s 10 percent conservative by 2020. The society’s executive committee didn’t endorse Dr. Haidt’s numerical goal, but it did vote to put a statement on the group’s home page welcoming psychologists with “diverse perspectives.” It also made a change on the “Diversity Initiatives” page — a two-letter correction of what it called a grammatical glitch, although others might see it as more of a Freudian slip.

I have friends here in Canada who make bets on when the Times will finally, mercifully shut down.

Meanwhile, Megan McArdle weighs in at Atlantic Monthly, driving home the shame:

It is just my impression, but I think what conservatives want most of all is simply recognition that they are being shut out. It is a double indignity to be discriminated against, and then be told unctuously that your group’s underrepresentation is proof that almost none of you are as good as “us”. Haidt notes that his correspondence with conservative students (anonymously) “reminded him of closeted gay students in the 1980s”:

He quoted — anonymously — from their e-mails describing how they hid their feelings when colleagues made political small talk and jokes predicated on the assumption that everyone was a liberal. “I consider myself very middle-of-the-road politically: a social liberal but fiscal conservative. Nonetheless, I avoid the topic of politics around work,” one student wrote. “Given what I’ve read of the literature, I am certain any research I conducted in political psychology would provide contrary findings and, therefore, go unpublished. Although I think I could make a substantial contribution to the knowledge base, and would be excited to do so, I will not.”
Beyond that, mostly they would like academics to be conscious of the bias, and try to counter it where possible. As the quote above suggests, this isn’t just for the benefit of conservatives, either.

All together now, class, spell W-I-M-P.

Someone else writes

I have a good friend–I won’t name out him here though–who is a tenured faculty member in a premier humanities department at a leading east coast university, and he’s . . . a conservative! How did he slip by the PC police? Simple: he kept his head down in graduate school and as a junior faculty member, practicing self-censorship and publishing boring journal articles that said little or nothing. When he finally got tenure review, he told his closest friend on the faculty, sotto voce, that “Actually I’m a Republican.” His faculty friend, similarly sotto voce, said, “Really? I’m a Republican, too!”

That’s the scandalous state of things in American universities today. Here and there–Hillsdale College, George Mason Law School, Ashland University come to mind–the administration is able to hire first rate conservative scholars at below market rates because they are actively discriminated against at probably 90 percent of American colleges and universities. Other universities will tolerate a token conservative, but having a second conservative in a department is beyond the pale.

All together now, class, spell the plural, W-I-M-P-S.

Oh, heck, let me be honest, not snarky: Nothing stops the Yanks from freeing themselves from this garbage unless my British  mentor is right, and I hope he isn’t: Americans are happy to be serfs, but they don’t like being portrayed in the media as hillbillies.

So whenever the zeroes they all gladly pay taxes for threaten to do just that, they promptly cave.

If I die tonight, I want this on the record: If I couldn’t be a Canuck and managed to bear the unbearable sorrow, I’d be a true Yankee hillbilly and proud of it. Do you think we Canucks have so far stood off the Sharia lawfare crowd, with all their money and threats, by worrying much what smarmy (and sometimes vicious) tax burdens think?

Comments
F/N: I am not at all claiming impossibility (and that is why Darwin's remarks in Origin Ch 6 as excerpted are deck-stacking), just that some things that on bare possibility of logic and physics can be so, face such a configuration space hurdle that they become empirically in praxis reliably unobservable. And, that is the foundation of the second law of thermodynamics, statistical form. [E.g. it is physically possible that all the O2 molecules in the room where you sit could spontaneously all go to one end, leaving you choking. But these states are so isolated in the space of configs, that we would on an infinite monkeys analysis, not expect to see this once in the lifespan of the observed universe.] PS: Acknowledged, and appreciated.kairosfocus
February 12, 2011
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Dr Bot: Pardon, but in science, hypothesies, per the Galilean principle, are subject to the test of empirical observation. Moreover, in a world where we have laws like the second law of thermodynamics and the repeated attempts to put up perpetual motion machines in violation, there is also an analysis on where a proposal is plausible enough to be worth theoretical consideration in absence of direct empirical support. (Cf Abel's discussion on plausibility. If you want to show us an informational and [self-]organisational free lunch, SHOW it. Just as, if you want to show us a work/energy free lunch, SHOW it. I can readily show that intelligence es routinely produce FSCO/I, and I have repeatedly shown the analysis in brief as to why we should not reasonably expect the spontaneous origin of FSCO/I, absent strong direct observation that something is very wrong with the analysis on searching config spaces. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary [actually: ADEQUATE] evidence. In this case, observation.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 12, 2011
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Kindly, provide a single case where the progression from prebiotic conditions, to chemistry that produces replicating molecules and onwards to the sort of metabolising and von Neumann Replicators has been shown in the lab or observed on the ground. There simply are none. The above is wholly speculative, and is not science.
It is called an Hypothesis - They argue that it could be possible, and test their hypotheses experimentally. If it had already been demonstrated then there would be no need to use science to examine the question. You are claiming that it is impossible - but I find the evidence lacking for reasons already explained in great detail. I'm done here, but it has been stimulating. On a parting note before it slips my mind again - I was a little terse with you on an earlier thread (a few weeks ago I think) where I over-reacted to a comment of yours, but for which I ought to apologise - My excuse: I had just given up smoking!DrBot
February 12, 2011
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F/N: if you want to specifically look at the Orgel-Shapiro exchange, cf e.g. here. (Please bear in mind that every comment I submit at UD links to this discussion, through my handle.)kairosfocus
February 12, 2011
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Dr Bot, I see your workload calls, and indeed, I am taking a sneakout on energy and development issues; I understand. However, a few responsive remarks are in order: 1: the problem is that these hypotheses don’t argue that fully formed replicators came together from a soup of random atoms, interacting via random laws, they argue, in various forms, that replicators formed through complex chemical processes – through the operation of many complex rules (only one of which is chaos). Kindly, provide a single case where the progression from prebiotic conditions, to chemistry that produces replicating molecules and onwards to the sort of metabolising and von Neumann Replicators has been shown in the lab or observed on the ground. There simply are none. The above is wholly speculative, and is not science. Indeed, had you specifically addressed the points raised here, I would have taken this one more seriously. But this is simple speculation without serious warrant. Observe for one instance how Orgel and Shapiro mutually self destruct on metabolism and genes first theories. Worse, the basic point is that this is all on a red erring led away to a strawman. The test I put forth above is on the question of whether we have good evidence that forces of chance and necessity under hghly favourable [relativley simple conditions and rapid generation of cases] can credibly give rise to functionally specific complex and coded information, the class of information in DNA. As you have acknowledged, there is no good reason to see this as empirically possible. To now appeal to speculative forces of organisation to write the DNA code's language, to create the algorithms and machines for implementing such, and to write the substance of the codes, is piling speculation on speculation in the teeth of an obvious alternative. Designers are the ONLY routinely observed and analytically warranted source of FSCO/I. In fact the reason why the observation of such complex FSCO/I in the living cell is not taken as morally certain evidence of design, is that there is an imposition of Lewontinian a priori evolutionary materialism that assumes it is impossible for a designer to have been there. So, since chance can with logical possibility do just about anything [as in it is logically possible to see the 2nd law of thermodynamics violated routinely], that is what "must" have given rise to the highly fortunate configurations that led to life, with a bit of help from laws of chemistry. I add, the relevant thermodynamics case was long since addressed here, and onward since 1984 in TMLO chs 7, 8 and 9. 2: Examples of these rules – the precursors of life – are the creation of order and complexity (not functionality in the first instance) like the examples I have given (crystals, layering and others like mollecular chains) In other words they argue that first life is contingent on complex, rule following chemistry, not just randomness put through a filter. This is a disappointing conflation of order and organisation, in the teeth of much opportunity to get this right, and insisting on already corrected irrelevant examples. Let us cite Orgel, in 1973, again:
In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [Source: L.E. Orgel, 1973. The Origins of Life. New York: John Wiley, p. 189. Emphases added. Crystals, of course, would by extension include snow crystals, and order enfolds cases such as vortexes, up to and including hurricanes etc. Cf. here.]
As Thaxton et al summarise from Yockey and Wicken, in TMLO, Ch 8, in 1984:
Yockey7 and Wickens5 develop the same distinction, that "order" is a statistical concept referring to regularity such as could might characterize a series of digits in a number, or the ions of an inorganic crystal. On the other hand, "organization" refers to physical systems and the specific set of spatio-temporal and functional relationships among their parts. Yockey and Wicken note that informational macromolecules have a low degree of order but a high degree of specified complexity. In short, the redundant order of crystals cannot give rise to specified complexity of the kind or magnitude found in biological organization; attempts to relate the two have little future.
3: Because your experiment – your proposed evidence – does not include these contingencies – it cannot produce order or complexity for the same reasons it cannot produce FCSI – it does not address any of the OOL hypotheses and so it does not refute them. Again, this is a case of setting the exercise in a different context from what it was intended to show and succeeds in showing. By moving goalposts, however, success can be made out to be failure. The key issue, ever since MF in 5 above and my response in 7, was the claim that he design theory is not empirically falsifiable. To that I replied that if ever we can show that with reasonable evidence directed forces of chance and/or mechanical necessity can spontaneously give rise to functionally specific, complex information, then the ID design inference would at once fall to the ground. So, I proposed a direct test on a million PCs with zener noise ckts, driving pseudorandom binary sequence circuits to flatten out the randomness. If in any reasonable time 1,000 bits (143 7-bit ASCII characters) could be generated spelling out a coherent message, that would be a direct empirical falsification of design theory. The infinite monkeys tests show that it is possible to find such sequences in a config space of about 10^50, but we are dealing with one of order 10^300, which is analytically (on pretty much the same grounds as the statistical form of thermodynamics is grounded) beyond the credible search resources of the observed cosmos. In several remarks above, you acknowledge that this test is passed, i.e the ID inference to design on FSCI is testable and on this class of tests so far stands supported by the evidence. That is all that is needed to dispose of the common rhetorical gambit that the design inference is empirically unfalsifiable. You then injected ideas about stratigraphic layers and the like hoping that forces of chance plus necessity would act together to give rise to order and complexity. They do, but they do not in our observation give rise to functionally specific complex organisation and associated information beyond 1,000 bits. That is, the only empirically known force capable of producing COUPLED functional specificity AND complexity is choice configuration, or design. In the case of the proposed origin of life by speculative scenarios, they lack empirical warrant and they run afoul of the known chemistry that has been investigated. Dawkins' speculative replicator is just that, speculative. Metab first and genes first theories shred each other, as the recent exchange between Orgel and Shapiro showed. Neither is credible. In addition, the FSCI in DNA for life as we OBSERVE it is not going to be explained on mechanical necessity [as that gives rise to low contingency, where information storage requires HIGH contingency, as the sequences of letters in messages in this thread show]. Nor, on free, stochastic contingency, or chance, as that will be dominated by the sea of non-functional configs, and the resources of the observed cosmos are not enough to move the scope of search beyond a practical zero. Nor will the low contingency tendency of mechanical necessity now supply the ability to configure towards functional configs. The order of atoms in a crystal has inherently low information, and a random cluster of crystals is chaos not information based function. a clay layer in a pond does not provide a template that creates DNA and the machines to make its function work. Nor is there any evidence of a chain from simple molecules to the organised structures of the living cell. Speculation is not evidence. The logical explanation is the obvious one: the only empirically and analytically well warranted causal factor that routinely produces FSCO/I is design. Intelligence guides contingency to fulfill purpose, and achieve function. Posts in this thread are a good example in point. So are algorithms, data structures and coded programs that work. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 12, 2011
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KF, forgive me if I don't participate in this stimulating discussion for a while - I've got to be disciplined and avoid it so I can catch up with my overwhelming workload! I will leave with a few (not so short) summary comments: Firstly, you still haven't convinced me of the effecacy of your experiment. Eugen sums it up nicely:
Algorithm is a set of rules. These rules are more basic and are defined by logic. Is this what DrBot is looking for? Not pure randomness but some basic rules to guide randomness. Elementary particles of matter have basic properties like spin, charge, mass etc. which define them and set basic rules of their behavior.
Your argument is one attempting, gallantly, to refute OOL hypotheses that argue life emerges through the functioning of the laws of nature (call it chance + necessicity), the problem is that these hypotheses don't argue that fully formed replicators came together from a soup of random atoms, interacting via random laws, they argue, in various forms, that replicators formed through complex chemical processes - through the operation of many complex rules (only one of which is chaos). Examples of these rules - the precursors of life - are the creation of order and complexity (not functionality in the first instance) like the examples I have given (crystals, layering and others like mollecular chains) In other words they argue that first life is contingent on complex, rule following chemistry, not just randomness put through a filter. Because your experiment - your proposed evidence - does not include these contingencies - it cannot produce order or complexity for the same reasons it cannot produce FCSI - it does not address any of the OOL hypotheses and so it does not refute them. In other words Darwinists, OOL researchers, would agree with you and me that your system will not produce FCSI in any reasonable time, bit they would also argue, rightly in my opinion, that it excludes all of the natural mechanisms (the rules of chemistry) that they believe are required for life to emerge, and as such makes no argument against their claims - The experiment is, if you'll forgive the phrase, attacking a strawman. My critique is sincerely intended to help you strengthen your argument by directing it towards the actual claims being made by Darwinists. I pray that makes my position clear. Now before I depart, one other comment:
Actually, until one can show and account for the origin of a von Neumann type self replicating facility in a metabolising entity on chance plus necessity in a warm little pond or the like, one cannot properly resort to the claimed power of lucky noise rewriting the DNA software in a reproducing organism.
This is not strictly correct is it. I hope you would not dispute the fact that life exists, that we can observe living things reproducing with variety, study DNA and cellular dynamics etc. That life exists is not in dispute, we see it all around us and we can study it in detail, this will allow us to determine, eventually, if the claim that mutations can lead to diversity, new traits and ultimatly to new species, is true or not. These will be emperical facts, observed and tested, they will not change if we discover that life was designed, or that life came about by happenstance. (Note: I am not saying these claims are true, merely that they can be tested) So KF, when you say: one cannot properly resort to the claimed power of lucky noise rewriting the DNA software in a reproducing organism because we do not know what caused first life you are incorrect - We can test the claims of the power of mutation+inheritance+selection+whatever other mechanisms might be at play, the resulting observed facts about Biology today are not directly dependent on knowing the origins of life. Look at it this way - We can determine, by studying and testing, how an internal combustion engine works if we have one in front of us. It coming about by chance or by design will not alter the way it works - it just means we understand its origins. A few footnotes: Your last post about probabilities, search and allowable time is slightly incorrect. Yor description of the time it would take to search through all possible 1kbit configs is cached in terms of an exhastive or iterative search, not a random one. For example a random search will have a probability of searching the same location many times because it does not exclude past searched items from future searches (this actually makes the idea of randomness as one root of OOL worse because the time required gets larger) On the other hand (and as a technical note) If we assume an iterative search then the claim that the universe is to short lived to find functional configs only stands up if all functional configs are to be found at the end of the search. To understand the probabilities better we really need to know where any islands of functionality lie in the search space (because some could be in the first 10^50 iterative seaches), how many islands there are and how broad an area they span. I'm afraid that, unless you know something the rest of us don't, then we don't actually know what the simplest chemical replicator looks like, how much variety it would tolerate, or how many other types of replicator are possible of a similar or rising complexity. In other words, and put in terms of your examples: How many configurations of the 1kbit string are functional, and what is the distribution? Although the shores of islands of function argument is a solid one, without a map of the ocean we can't be certain of the probabilities - and this is where OOL research may actually deliver some valuable results from an ID perspective - they are mapping that ocean, they just might not like what they find!DrBot
February 12, 2011
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I am fairly new to the debate but i have formed a general overview of the question. Here's how i see it in thumbnail sketch. I know this isn't the normal formulation of the arguments but it appears to sharpen the issues (At least in my mind). Your comments are appreciated? Thanks. Theory of evolution: 1. Simple DNA system emerges (self-replicating life forms) 2. Life forms are shaped to their environment by inherited traits and natural selection. (survival of the fittest) 3. Occasional series of chance events construct novel features which accumulate and transform simple DNA systems into information rich DNA systems. 4. MAN is created. Theory of ID: 1. Complex DNA system emerges (self-replicating life forms) 2. Life forms are shaped to their environment by inherited traits and natural selection. (survival of the fittest) 3. Some limited information is added by chance events. 4. MAN emerges. Did life start with a bucket full of information and then add a thimble full through natural selection and chance events? Did life start with a thimble of information and fill a bucket through a series of incremental advances? Was MAN created or did MAN emerge?JLS
February 12, 2011
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Eugen: Now that the Darwin Day service drop-out is over . . . The laws of physics, whether of mechanical necessity or of random processes [and the latter require a set-up condition to have a specific distribution, Maxwell-Boltzmann (cf here how that is set up qualitatively and its implications), Gaussian, Poisson, Weibull, etc], do act like a programme of constraints that given an initial condition, set up the cosmos as a stage, and put players and dynamical processes playing out on it. Indeed, it turns out that the processes, constraining rules, parameters, brute givens etc are on many, many dimensions, ever so finely balanced or tuned in ways that facilitate the existence of C-chemistry, cell-based, complex life, through many, many integrated networks of dynamical interactions flowing from a properly set-up big bang singularity. This starts with the nuclear properties that have to be just so to get a cosmos in which per nuclear reaction paths in stars, the four most dominant atoms are H, He, C and O. The properties of these atoms are very, very special indeed, and facilitate ever so many processes crucial to life. E.g. C is the connector block atom, with H its most common companion. H and O go together to make H2O, which is the crucial and highly facilitating medium for cell based life on a terrestrial planet like ours. (And BTW, notice, I am emphasising stuff that is based on what we do know, with abundant empirical underpinnings [cf the full discussion in the linked page and watch the onward vids] about the key underpinnings for life such as we enjoy, and about fusion processes, stars and relativistic cosmology.) So powerful is just this initial cluster of fine-tuned parameters, that they are the basis for Sir Fred Hoyle's famous statement:
From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.Cited, Bradley, in "Is There Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God? How the Recent Discoveries Support a Designed Universe". Emphasis added.] . . . . I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars. [["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]
Remember, this is a life-long agnostic/atheist speaking. And, a holder of a Nobel-equivalent prize for astronomy. (An astrophysicist of the first rank for decades, and a personal scientific hero.) Just on that alone, we would have good reason, even through a multiverse model, for inferring to a designed cosmos, with high confidence on inference to best explanation. So, an extra-cosmic, extremely knowledgeable and powerful designer is a credible, scientifically warranted view. Jooking in a bit of phil, the radical contingency of our cosmos strongly points to a necessary being as its causal root, a being that is sufficient in itself, i.e. has no causal dependence on external necessary factors. An eternal and indestructible, causally efficacious being capable of building a cosmos like we observe. With that in the background, and the evident going out of the way to set a stage for life, I do not strictly need any further evidence of design in our world. I could in principle, happily be a believer in a cosmos that has the additional property that through as yet undiscovered laws, it is programmed to set up terrestrial planets like ours [another set of fine tuning parameters!] and the chemistry of warm little electrified ponds, or undersea vents, or comets etc, is such that the components of life come to be, then they self assemble and evolve till we are here. Ultimate front loading in a designed cosmos. A cosmos that on the cosmological evidence I can comfortably conclude was designed by a necessary, intelligent and powerful being. But, once we turn to life on our planet, cell based life, lo and behold, we find ever so much FSCO/I, again pointing to direct design as its most credible explanation. That holds for its origin, and the advocates of spontaneous abiogenesis on laws of chance and necessity have never been able to convince me that that amount of functionally specific organisation, on the gamut of our observable cosmos, could credibly happen once. On thermodynamics and linked origin of information grounds backed up by direct induction from the source of FSCO/I that we routinely observe. Then, when I am invited to accept that huge increments in FSCO/I spontaneously arose and led to dozens of novel body plans, starting with the Cambrian life revolution [cf here], my informed incredulity meter pegs, so hard the needle gets bent. Life starts out with 100 - 1,000+ kbits worth of DNA, and the panoply of machinery that makes it work. It is credible that novel body plans need 10's - 100's+ of millions of bits of additional DNA information, and the isolation of the relevant islands of function is being documented by the way we find say huge chunks of essentially human genome in the kangaroo, a marsupial; a totally different order of mammal. Then, I see the sort of deck-stacking arguments that Darwin put on the table in Origin, Ch 6, in addressing FSCO and related irreducible complexity as strong indicators of design (a la Paley and teh watch, including the self-replicating watch of Ch 2 that somehow gets left off when Paley is routinely trashed):
IF it could be demonstrated [that's in context a demand for absolute proof, which is not in the gift of science] that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case. No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, round which, according to the theory, there has been much extinction. Or again, if we take an organ common to all the members of a class, for in this latter case the organ must have been originally formed at a remote period, since which all the many members of the class have been developed; and in order to discover the early transitional grades through which the organ has passed, we should have to look to very ancient ancestral forms, long since become extinct. 1 We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind . . .
Sorry, great bearded one, that is the injection of logical possibility, in a context where the proper standard is empirically anchored reasonable likelihood. As in, if you cannot show us an observed case of FSCO/I by chance plus necessity, then on inference to best explanation, the best explanation for FSCO/I remains what it was in Paley's day, and in Plato's day for that matter. Design. Which we routinely observe creating such FSCO/I and can back up with the infinite monkeys type analysis that grounds statistical thermodynamics. So, we have an inference to best, empirically anchored explanation, design, going up against deck-stacking question-begging a materialist priorism. If you doubt me on this last, cf Lewontin's infamous 1997 admission:
To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. ]
ID thinker Philip Johnson's rebuke to that is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
GEM of TKI PS: Dr Bot, please note that I am not making offers of "proof" here (or further above in the thread) but am pointing to inference to best current empirically anchored explanation. And, that his is what is the point in my zener diode triggered random number generator. For, the generation of a coherently functional text in a random process [much faster than a biological one would be and entirely comparable to the claimed powers of Ev, Avida etc to illustrate how evolution works, except that I am saying, first you have to get to the shores of an island of function before you can start hill climbing to peaks of function] is an empirical test of the claim that within reasonable likelihood, FSCI can be originated by chance plus mechanical necessity. [If you cannot get to first base by hitting the ball and running, it is pointless discussing rounding the bases and heading for home plate. Just so, without an empirically anchored case that functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information relevant to origin of life and of novel body plans is reasonably likely on the gamut of our observed cosmos, I am entirely within my scientific epistemic rights to infer on best explanation to the known, empirically warranted source of such FSCO/I: design. And, to use the test of setting up the task of generating a 1-k bit text from the published corpus of free electronic books by random walk processes, as a reasonable test of the capacity of chance and mechanical necessity to get us to FSCO/I. The evidence is, that such processes can get us to islands of fucntion in config spaces of order 10^50 cells, but for the 1,000 bit threshold, we are looking at 10^301 cells, and for observed simplest life, we are looking at far larger yet spaces, 100 - 1,000 k bits. 2^100,000 = 9.99 *10^30,102. Origin of embryologically and environmentally feasible novel body plans goes well beyond that again, looking for islands of function in config spaces of order 10's to 100's of millions of bits. A space of 10 mn bits has 9.05*10^3,010,299 cells. The ~ 10^80 atoms of our whole observed cosmos, changing state 10^20 mn times faster than strong nuclear force interactions, for the thermodynamically credible lifespan of our cosmos (50 mn times the time said to have elapsed since the singularity), would go through about 10^150 states, a practical zero relative to such spaces.]kairosfocus
February 12, 2011
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F/N: I believe this was accidentally cross-threaded by Frost 122585, and seems to best fit here, so pardon my doing that: ______________________ >> The objection that Mark is raising here is actually one for Theology. The central point of the objection is that ID is not scientific because it does not include within it a testable feature of the designer itself. There are several problems here. Firstly, the question of who the designer is- what its nature and purpose and limits of its prowess are etc – is not the focus or purpose of the theory of ID at all. ID is concerned with whether something IS or IS NOT designed. The definition of ID is “the theory that certain patterns in nature are best explained as the product of intelligence.” Period. So the objection about intention of a designer is arbitrary to begin with- however it does imply a real theological inquiry. Secondly, it is a very interesting admission when Mark says the purposes or intentions of a designer ARE testable- because to Mark one can judge the legitimacy of the nature of the designer by the effects that are attributed to it. However, if this is true then it is also true that you can judge the cause of the designed object in question by it’s nature as well -for if you cannot even discern if something is or is not designed to begin with, then you certainly cannot discern if something is designed for the presupposed purpose it is thought to be designed for. Next, the reason why this is a theological inquiry is that the objection concerning intention of the designer is really about the nature of the designer itself. The problem here just like with the question of evil in theology, and many thing in life, is that looks can be deceiving. For many Christians the fall of man is the reason why things that were originally meant to be good are now left flawed. But for many other more skeptical theists – or those who are not biblical literalists they see flaws in designs in nature as being there for a purpose- a challenge or a spiritual purpose- for man kind who needs to over come them in order to become spiritually stronger, enlightened, complete etc. Or in a nut shell as Kariosfocus likes to put it “for the purpose of building souls”- Beautifully put. So the issues concerning the intentions of the designer are actually not easily testable because the purpose/s of the designer can be equally and likely more complex than the purposes behind the most complex paintings, sculptures, works of literature and other forms of art. Only the artist themselves truly knows the intention behind the design of their work- yet many things can still be inferred and understood- just not all things. So I think Mark’s admission that the Designer’s motives can be testable is little more than a bait and switch tactic- one that seeks to put the designer into a small box made of straw that can perhaps be more easily knocked over. I am not saying this was Mark’s intention but it has long been one of the debating tactics of many before. >> ________________________kairosfocus
February 12, 2011
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Hi Kairos Again, some quick ideas before pandemonium starts (i.e. kids come home) Algorithm is a set of rules. These rules are more basic and are defined by logic. Is this what DrBot is looking for? Not pure randomness but some basic rules to guide randomness. Elementary particles of matter have basic properties like spin, charge, mass etc. which define them and set basic rules of their behavior. Basic rules that guide behavior of particles can assemble nice repetitive patterns like crystals and snowflakes. Some other basic rules of nature like gravity can create repetitive patterns of matter like sediment layers.Eugen
February 11, 2011
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Eugen Your simple algor would do a random walk from initial location in Hamming distance space. Whether you do it by doing an add-to [or more likely an X-OR], or if you simply do a shift left game, dumping out the old bits and putting in the new ones in succession for a 1,000-bit shift register. To do our snowflake, we could do a digital cam game, where we program arc around a circle [or, to get real literal, a hexagon] and then do a random length variation in radius, which we can then do a real or virtual follower on. (Hardware and software are functionally equivalent.) The digital snowflake cam would be a combination of the programmed necessity and the chance variation. For that matter if you wanted to do a digital sim on layering, you can set up a layering sequence then do random variations on it. Or if you wanted to do a text string, you can program a set sequence of letters then do a random variation on them by adding to or subtracting from the ascii codes. (For onlookers: Yes, you can add and subtract ascii symbols, which would change the symbols.) One could even do the test of starting with a known 1,000 letter functional string then see if we can move to a different string while preserving function all the way. Works easily with three letter strings: rat --> cat --> sat --> sit --> pit --> pet --> pea --> tea --> ten --> men --> man. But once strings get significantly longer, there will be trouble. The hamming distance between functional 143 [isn't that the tweet length?] letter strings is a lot harder to bridge. (Message, micro evo is far more feasible than macro.) In neither case would you change the basic point that FSCI is not reachable by chance plus necessity. In short the basic test remains valid. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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Maybe not good idea but just thinking loud here. We can provide more regular output in the experiment to simulate polarity or affinity for characters. It could quickly get complicated so we have to stick to simplest algorithm possible. All that's needed are few lines of code that will simply look at random generator output and add next character of the same kind. It would act like a simple "attractor". If we are dealing with ones and zeroes then if random generator output is zero we add another zero to the string. If RGO is 1 we add 1 to the string. Oops looks like we are just doubling randomness. If we would try to add more regularity in another dimension to create "snowflake", algorithm would quickly get too complicated. Would this make Dr.Bot happier?Eugen
February 11, 2011
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markf you state; 'That random variation that we observe between parents and offspring plus natural selection was responsible for the vast majority of diversity of life we see today.' and yet we find,,, “Whatever we may try to do within a given species, we soon reach limits which we cannot break through. A wall exists on every side of each species. That wall is the DNA coding, which permits wide variety within it (within the gene pool, or the genotype of a species)-but no exit through that wall. Darwin's gradualism is bounded by internal constraints, beyond which selection is useless." R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990) This following study is very interesting for the researcher surveyed 130 DNA-based evolutionary trees to see if the results matched what 'natural selection' predicted for speciation and found: Accidental origins: Where species come from - March 2010 Excerpt: If speciation results from natural selection via many small changes, you would expect the branch lengths to fit a bell-shaped curve.,,, Instead, Pagel's team found that in 78 per cent of the trees, the best fit for the branch length distribution was another familiar curve, known as the exponential distribution. Like the bell curve, the exponential has a straightforward explanation - but it is a disquieting one for evolutionary biologists. The exponential is the pattern you get when you are waiting for some single, infrequent event to happen.,,,To Pagel, the implications for speciation are clear: "It isn't the accumulation of events that causes a speciation, it's single, rare events falling out of the sky, so to speak." http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527511.400-accidental-origins-where-species-come-from.html?page=2 EXPELLED - Natural Selection And Genetic Mutations - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4036840 "...but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have..." Maciej Marian Giertych - Population Geneticist - member of the European Parliament - EXPELLED ,,, so markf perhaps you would like to be the first neo-Darwinist to actually provide the empirical evidence to back up your grandiose claims???!!!!bornagain77
February 11, 2011
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#63 Dala You cut out a rather important element of what I wrote: That random variation that we observe between parents and offspring plus natural selection was responsible for the vast majority of diversity of life we see today. You are right that if the theory was simply - completely random variation led to current diversity - then it would be unfalsifiable. It would allow for a buffalo to spring from a banana (to be totally absurd). That is just as magical (and meaningless) as a designer of unspecified powers and motives. However, that is not what Darwin or modern evolutionary theory propose. They are talking about the kind of reproduction and variation of the kind we see about us. And this does require enough time and particulate inheritance to succeed. I am glad we agree that the theory that RM+NS accounts for all diversity is false.markf
February 11, 2011
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MathGrrl, look at it this way. The information in even the simplest of life is far, far more sophisticated than anything our best teams of software engineers have ever devised,, Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information – David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors – Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 “No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms’ genomes programmed?” http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf Simplest Microbes More Complex than Thought - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: PhysOrg reported that a species of Mycoplasma,, “The bacteria appeared to be assembled in a far more complex way than had been thought.” Many molecules were found to have multiple functions: for instance, some enzymes could catalyze unrelated reactions, and some proteins were involved in multiple protein complexes." http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200912.htm#20091229a First-Ever Blueprint of 'Minimal Cell' Is More Complex Than Expected - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: A network of research groups,, approached the bacterium at three different levels. One team of scientists described M. pneumoniae's transcriptome, identifying all the RNA molecules, or transcripts, produced from its DNA, under various environmental conditions. Another defined all the metabolic reactions that occurred in it, collectively known as its metabolome, under the same conditions. A third team identified every multi-protein complex the bacterium produced, thus characterising its proteome organisation. "At all three levels, we found M. pneumoniae was more complex than we expected," Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software we've ever created. Bill Gates, The Road Ahead, 1996, p. 188 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm ,, and yet MathGrrl, despite having information packed to the gills in the simplest of life,,, ‘The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica.” Carl Sagan, “Life” in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894 ,,,There is not even one example of the evolution of even a 'simple' biological machine of system,,, ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA ,,,despite this MathGrrl, no one has ever violated Genetic Entropy''' The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html The GS (genetic selection) Principle – David L. Abel – 2009 Excerpt: Stunningly, information has been shown not to increase in the coding regions of DNA with evolution. Mutations do not produce increased information. Mira et al (65) showed that the amount of coding in DNA actually decreases with evolution of bacterial genomes, not increases. This paper parallels Petrov’s papers starting with (66) showing a net DNA loss with Drosophila evolution (67). Konopka (68) found strong evidence against the contention of Subba Rao et al (69, 70) that information increases with mutations. The information content of the coding regions in DNA does not tend to increase with evolution as hypothesized. Konopka also found Shannon complexity not to be a suitable indicator of evolutionary progress over a wide range of evolving genes. Konopka’s work applies Shannon theory to known functional text. Kok et al. (71) also found that information does not increase in DNA with evolution. As with Konopka, this finding is in the context of the change in mere Shannon uncertainty. The latter is a far more forgiving definition of information than that required for prescriptive information (PI) (21, 22, 33, 72). It is all the more significant that mutations do not program increased PI. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces formal function. No increase in Shannon or Prescriptive information occurs in duplication. What the above papers show is that not even variation of the duplication produces new information, not even Shannon “information.” Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 ,,,,it boils down to this,,, Prescriptive Information (PI) - Abel - 2009 Excerpt: Formal choices of mind can be recorded into physicality through the purposeful selection of unique physical objects called “tokens.” A different formal meaning and function is arbitrarily assigned to each token. Formal rules, not laws, govern the combinations and collective meaning of multiple tokens in a Material Symbol system (MSS) (Rocha, 1997 6069). The recordation of successive purposeful choices into a MSS allows formal PI (Prescriptive Information) to be instantiated into a physical matrix. http://www.scitopics.com/Prescriptive_Information_PI.html In summary: Material processes cannot create codes or axioms since codes and axioms are ‘transcendent rules’ which have no basis in a material substrate, but instead axioms and codes must always arise from a transcendent mind and are always imposed onto a material substrate: i.e. no known material process can form a transcendent symbolic representation of itself only a mind with ‘intent’ can order a material substrate to be ordered as such. etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
February 11, 2011
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MathGrrl, look at it this way. The information in even the simplest of life is far, far more sophisticated than anything our best teams of software engineers have ever devised,, Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information – David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors – Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 “No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms’ genomes programmed?” http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf Simplest Microbes More Complex than Thought - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: PhysOrg reported that a species of Mycoplasma,, “The bacteria appeared to be assembled in a far more complex way than had been thought.” Many molecules were found to have multiple functions: for instance, some enzymes could catalyze unrelated reactions, and some proteins were involved in multiple protein complexes." http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200912.htm#20091229a First-Ever Blueprint of 'Minimal Cell' Is More Complex Than Expected - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: A network of research groups,, approached the bacterium at three different levels. One team of scientists described M. pneumoniae's transcriptome, identifying all the RNA molecules, or transcripts, produced from its DNA, under various environmental conditions. Another defined all the metabolic reactions that occurred in it, collectively known as its metabolome, under the same conditions. A third team identified every multi-protein complex the bacterium produced, thus characterising its proteome organisation. "At all three levels, we found M. pneumoniae was more complex than we expected," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091126173027.htm Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software we've ever created. Bill Gates, The Road Ahead, 1996, p. 188 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm ,, and yet MathGrrl, despite having information packed to the gills in the simplest of life,,, ‘The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica.” Carl Sagan, “Life” in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894 ,,,There is not even one example of the evolution of even a 'simple' biological machine of system,,, ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA ,,,despite this MathGrrl, no one has ever violated Genetic Entropy''' The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html The GS (genetic selection) Principle – David L. Abel – 2009 Excerpt: Stunningly, information has been shown not to increase in the coding regions of DNA with evolution. Mutations do not produce increased information. Mira et al (65) showed that the amount of coding in DNA actually decreases with evolution of bacterial genomes, not increases. This paper parallels Petrov’s papers starting with (66) showing a net DNA loss with Drosophila evolution (67). Konopka (68) found strong evidence against the contention of Subba Rao et al (69, 70) that information increases with mutations. The information content of the coding regions in DNA does not tend to increase with evolution as hypothesized. Konopka also found Shannon complexity not to be a suitable indicator of evolutionary progress over a wide range of evolving genes. Konopka’s work applies Shannon theory to known functional text. Kok et al. (71) also found that information does not increase in DNA with evolution. As with Konopka, this finding is in the context of the change in mere Shannon uncertainty. The latter is a far more forgiving definition of information than that required for prescriptive information (PI) (21, 22, 33, 72). It is all the more significant that mutations do not program increased PI. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces formal function. No increase in Shannon or Prescriptive information occurs in duplication. What the above papers show is that not even variation of the duplication produces new information, not even Shannon “information.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_GS_Principle_The_Genetic_Selection_Principle.html http://www.us.net/life/index.htm Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 ,,,,it boils down to this,,, Prescriptive Information (PI) - Abel - 2009 Excerpt: Formal choices of mind can be recorded into physicality through the purposeful selection of unique physical objects called “tokens.” A different formal meaning and function is arbitrarily assigned to each token. Formal rules, not laws, govern the combinations and collective meaning of multiple tokens in a Material Symbol system (MSS) (Rocha, 1997 6069). The recordation of successive purposeful choices into a MSS allows formal PI (Prescriptive Information) to be instantiated into a physical matrix. http://www.scitopics.com/Prescriptive_Information_PI.html In summary: Material processes cannot create codes or axioms since codes and axioms are ‘transcendent rules’ which have no basis in a material substrate, but instead axioms and codes must always arise from a transcendent mind and are always imposed onto a material substrate: i.e. no known material process can form a transcendent symbolic representation of itself only a mind with ‘intent’ can order a material substrate to be ordered as such. etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
February 11, 2011
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MG: Ev is an intelligently designed algorithm that uses active information input by the designers to produce the appearance of evolutionary progress by chance plus necessity. The real issue posed by the FSCI challenge -- and BTW, does Ev progress by 1000+ bit increments of novel info by chance? -- is not the hill climbing within an island of function, but to get to the shores of such an island in a sea of non function when your leaky raft drifting by chance has not got enough resources to last long enough to credibly drift to an island. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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MathGrrl states; 'Evolutionary algorithms such as ev and Tierra (neither of which is explicitly “goal directed”) do reflect those mechanisms, in simplified form, so it is not surprising that they work.' but alas MathGrrl, THEY ARE ALL goal directed; Signature In The Cell - Review Excerpt: There is absolutely nothing surprising about the results of these (evolutionary) algorithms. The computer is programmed from the outset to converge on the solution. The programmer designed to do that. What would be surprising is if the program didn't converge on the solution. That would reflect badly on the skill of the programmer. Everything interesting in the output of the program came as a result of the programmer's skill-the information input. There are no mysterious outputs. Software Engineer - quoted to Stephen Meyer http://www.scribd.com/full/29346507?access_key=key-1ysrgwzxhb18zn6dtju0 The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity - David L. Abel Excerpt: "To stem the growing swell of Intelligent Design intrusions, it is imperative that we provide stand-alone natural process evidence of non trivial self-organization at the edge of chaos. We must demonstrate on sound scientific grounds the formal capabilities of naturally-occurring physicodynamic complexity. Evolutionary algorithms, for example, must be stripped of all artificial selection and the purposeful steering of iterations toward desired products. The latter intrusions into natural process clearly violate sound evolution theory." http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Evolutionary Synthesis of Nand Logic: Dissecting a Digital Organism - Dembski - Marks - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: The effectiveness of a given algorithm can be measured by the active information introduced to the search. We illustrate this by identifying sources of active information in Avida, a software program designed to search for logic functions using nand gates. Avida uses stair step active information by rewarding logic functions using a smaller number of nands to construct functions requiring more. Removing stair steps deteriorates Avida’s performance while removing deleterious instructions improves it. http://evoinfo.org/publications/evolutionary-synthesis-of-nand-logic-avida/ And MathGrrl, the simulations CLEARLY DO NOT reflect reality: Arriving At Intelligence Through The Corridors Of Reason (Part II) - April 2010 Excerpt: Summarizing the status quo, Johnson notes for example how AVIDA uses “an unrealistically small genome, an unrealistically high mutation rate, unrealistic protection of replication instructions, unrealistic energy rewards and no capability for graceful function degradation. It allows for arbitrary experimenter-specified selective advantages”. Not faring any better, the ME THINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL algorithm is programmed to direct a sequence of letters towards a pre-specified target. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/arriving-at-intelligence-through-the-corridors-of-reason-part-ii/ The Problem of Information for the Theory of Evolution – debunking Schneider's ev computer simulation Excerpt: In several papers genetic binding sites were analyzed using a Shannon information theory approach. It was recently claimed that these regulatory sequences could increase information content through evolutionary processes starting from a random DNA sequence, for which a computer simulation was offered as evidence. However, incorporating neglected cellular realities and using biologically realistic parameter values invalidate this claim. The net effect over time of random mutations spread throughout genomes is an increase in randomness per gene and decreased functional optimality. http://www.trueorigin.org/schneider.asp Constraints vs. Controls - Abel - 2010 Excerpt: Classic examples of the above confusion are found in the faulty-inference conclusions drawn from many so-called “directed evolution,” “evolutionary algorithm,” and computer-programmed “computational evolutionary” experimentation. All of this research is a form of artificial selection, not natural selection. Choice for potential function at decision nodes, prior to the realization of that function, is always artificial, never natural. http://www.bentham.org/open/tocsj/articles/V004/14TOCSJ.pdf etc... etc... etc...bornagain77
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F/N: Onlookers, it is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE and empirically indistinguishable from the world we think we inhabit, that the cosmos was created five minutes ago in an instant, complete with the imagined memories and traces of the past, immediate and remote.kairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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Dr Bot and MG: Dr Bot thanks for an in faireness remark. Actually, until one can show and account for the origin of a von Neumann type self replicating facility in a metabolising entity on chance plus necessity in a warm little pond or the like, one cannot properly resort to the claimed power of lucky noise rewriting the DNA software in a reproducing organism. Darwins evolutionary tree of life lacks a root. next, to account for novel body plans you have to account for increments of 10+ Mbits of new DNA bases that have to be functional from embryological development on. Until you can empirically show that chance plus necessity without intelligent action, can credibly give rise to genetic bioinformation on that sort of scale, you have no right to claim that macroevolution is an empirical possibility. And in that context, the issue of getting to complex, specifically coded functional configs by chance and necessity without intelligent direction has to be shown. We know routinely that intelligence is capable of generating FSCI. Simply asserting logical possibility then refusing to allow the possibility of a designer at the times and places in question is begging some very big questions. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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DrBot writes:
To be fair to KF, his experiment is aimed at biogenisis (the origin of self replicatiors) so it doesn’t need to include many elements of evolutionary theory – No reproduction or inheritance, or possibly selection.
Ah, that's not how I was reading the discussion. Kairosfocus, could you please clarify if you are limiting your statements to abiogenesis or if you mean for them to apply to evolution as well? Thanks!MathGrrl
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Dr Bot: The test for producing FSCI by lucky noise a la infinite monkeys does relate to many phenomena we observe in nature and as nature, starting with cases of coded information such as we see in DNA, and in similar text strings. We already have in hand an analysis -- cf here again -- that shows that it should not be possible to get functionally specific, coded text strings of significant length [1,000 bits is a useful cutoff] through undirected chance plus mechanical necessity. The tests suggested and carried out would allow us to see if we can break that analysis down by showing it to be counter-factual. Just so, we test the second law of thermodynamics by trying to create a [macro-scale] perpetual motion machine of the second kind, over the threshold where statistical fluctuations are a significant issue. Maybe you will be able to see what I am discussing form the parallel case -- yes, it is parallel, the argument above is that there is no informational free lunch just like the thermodynamics laws say there is no free work -- on how Wiki puts the issue for this case.2ndLTh forbids such:
A perpetual motion machine of the second kind is a machine which spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work. When the thermal energy is equivalent to the work done, this does not violate the law of conservation of energy. However it does violate the more subtle second law of thermodynamics (see also entropy). The signature of a perpetual motion machine of the second kind is that there is only one heat reservoir involved, which is being spontaneously cooled without involving a transfer of heat to a cooler reservoir. This conversion of heat into useful work, without any side effect, is impossible, according to the second law of thermodynamics . . . . While the laws of physics are incomplete and stating that physical things are absolutely impossible is un-scientific, "impossible" is used in common parlance to describe those things which absolutely cannot occur within the context of our current formulation of physical laws.[6] The conservation laws are particularly robust from a mathematical perspective. Noether's theorem, which was proven mathematically in 1915, states that any conservation law can be derived from a corresponding continuous symmetry of the action of a physical system.[7] This means that if the laws of physics (not simply the current understanding of them, but the actual laws, which may still be undiscovered) and the various physical constants remain invariant over time — if the laws of the universe are fixed — then the conservation laws must hold. On the other hand, if the conservation laws are invalid, then much of modern physics would be incorrect as well.[8] . . . . The principles of thermodynamics are so well established, both theoretically and experimentally, that proposals for perpetual motion machines are universally met with disbelief on the part of physicists. Any proposed perpetual motion design offers a potentially instructive challenge to physicists: one is almost completely certain that it can't work, so one must explain how it fails to work.
Now, the point is that under the general macro-level constraints working on a system, there are in principle many specific micro-level distributions of mass and energy that comport with those states. these can be clustered in various interesting ways. But providing there is freedom to go to particular configs, the clusters with the overwhelmingly largest number of micro configs will be overwhelmingly most likely. So, a system that starts out in any arbitrary state and is looked at form time to time, will overwhelmingly be likely to be in the large cluster states. Such a high degree of freedom is of course a high entropy state. So, objects tend to move from low to high entropy states, as can be seen here. Just so, when we take a set of configs that may be taken up by a system describable as a set of yes/no states, we have a large number of possible configs. Of these, the ones that correspond to lingusistically, or algorithmically functional states will be a very small fraction. Spontaneous chances or states traceable to undirected chance and mechanical necessity will overwhelmingly tend to be in non funcitonal configs. But that is a prediction. The infinite monkeys lucky noise type test tests this. It is logically possible for the sysrem to move to a funcitonal config, but the overwhelming likelihood is that on spontaneous variations, we will be in non-functional ones. For just 1,000 bits, the possibility of searching enough of the state to make a functional config explicable on chance plus necessity a superior explanation to the case of intelligence, which is routinely observed, is so low that it is empirically unobservable. But this is a case of trust but verify. So, we can test. So far they tests show that had the criterion been set at the old level of 1 in 10^50 or so, it would have failed. It is at 1 in 10^150 - 1 in 10^300 or so. And, the lucky noise experiment does test whether FSCI is credibly empirically accessible by lucky noise. The answer so far -- as expected -- is, no. And, yes, despite your denial, this is an empirical test relevant to natural phenomena and cases. The most obvious one is the digitally coded info in DNA, especially the origin of cell based life and the related origin of novel body plans. for, out of noise and the mechanical laws governing he chemistry, such long chain monomers would have to come from chance and necessity if they were not designed. Necessity would click the chain together and in the case of proteins fold them. But the aspect of the sequence of monomers if it were not controlled by choice, would have to be controlled by chance. But, chance is utterly unlikely to access a functional sequence, as shown analytically and as supported by lucky noise infinite monkeys experiments. So, the conclusion is that one is empirically and analytically well warranted to infer to design, or choice as the source of the relevant bio-information. Unless, one can demonstrate instead that an intelligent designer at the relevant point is an impossibility. And that is the real issue: it is being assumed that no intelligent designer at the relevant points was possible. That is not on any specific empirical evidence or contradiction in the idea of an intelligence, but on a prior question-begging assumptions. In short, the exact sort of bias mentioned in the original post. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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MathGrrl To be fair to KF, his experiment is aimed at biogenisis (the origin of self replicatiors) so it doesn't need to include many elements of evolutionary theory - No reproduction or inheritance, or possibly selection. But the criticism of the model still stands in this context - It doesn't reflect known mechanisms of chemistry so we can't draw inferences about chemistry from it.DrBot
February 11, 2011
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bornagain77 writes:
‘That isn’t at all analogous to the mechanisms identified by modern evolutionary theory, so it wouldn’t prove much of anything. MathGrrl is right,’ Are you guys finally admitting that computers, using evolutionary algorithmns, have failed to violate Dembski and Marks (LCI) Law of Conservation of Information,,, but isn’t Dawkins ‘Methinks It Is Like A Weasel’, or similar goal directed programs thereof, suppose to be slam dunk proof for you guys that computers can do what you now say they can’t do?
DrBot has done a fine job of explaining this already, but it apparently bears repeating that the experiment proposed by kairosfocus does not reflect known mechanisms of modern evolutionary theory. Evolutionary algorithms such as ev and Tierra (neither of which is explicitly "goal directed") do reflect those mechanisms, in simplified form, so it is not surprising that they work. I don't know how you get your conclusion above from what I wrote.MathGrrl
February 11, 2011
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Joseph writes (41):
did just that- provided a testable hypothesis for ID- well I copied it from a referenced book.
If you're referring to your posts numbered 15 and 16, you have not specified a scientific hypothesis nor have you made any testable predictions that are entailed by such an hypothesis and that would serve to falsify it if they were found to be incorrect. If you mean this:
Therefor to falsfy any given design inference all one has to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can produce the effect in question.
I'm afraid you misunderstand the nature of a testable prediction. The only conclusion that can be logically drawn from testing a particular mechanism is that either it is possible for that mechanism to result in the observed effect or that it is not possible for that mechanism to result in the observed effect. Testing a prediction about a mechanism doesn't tell us anything about other possible mechanisms. This, by the way, is the fatal flaw in the explanatory filter that you mention:
This is proven by the explanatory filter which mandates that chance and necessity be given first shot at demonstrating their powers. If chance and/ or necessity can explain it then the design node is never even considered.
The correct answer isn't automatically "design" it is "we don't know." You are trying to position intelligent design as the default explanation. That's not scientific. If you want to support ID scientifically, you need to clearly state a scientific hypothesis and make testable predictions entailed by that hypothesis, without reference to other hypotheses or theories. To be testable, you're going to need to specify who, what, when, where, and how, with some degree of specificity. Thus far I haven't seen that kind of detail from any ID proponent.MathGrrl
February 11, 2011
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the insistence that if there is a logical possibility, then we must resort to such, is destructive of science in general, as in principle, every apparent regularity we have ever seen could be sheer lucky coincidence.
A red herring - I am not arguing about logical possibilities, I am pointing out that your experiment does not apply to reality so it cannot be used to make inferences about reality.DrBot
February 11, 2011
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The FSCI by zener noise and PRBS register infinite monkeys experiment then tests whether FSCI, in general, can be had by lucky noise.
And by the SAME experiment you can show that many non FSCI patterns cannot be had by lucky noise. Unfortunatly these patterns are observed to occur without intelligence - Your experiment is flawed.
the question is: can we infer that FSCI is accessible by lucky noise, empirically not just as a logical possibility?
Yes we can infer that, I agree, I always have agreed. Many non FSCI patterns cannot be had by lucky noise. Your experiment does not apply to they systems being studied.DrBot
February 11, 2011
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You are still avoiding the issue - you can't prove that patterns found in nature are the product of design if your test system doesn't generate any patterns found in nature. You are simply assuming your conclusions and designing an experiment to confirm them - this does not help ID.DrBot
February 11, 2011
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PS: I suggest you may wish to see the discussion of lucky noise here.kairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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Dr Bot: the issue is not whether we have observed the function of rocks looking like the faces of Washington er al. We already have that in hand. We also have in hand the mesh of nodes approach that allows us to describe the rock faces, and deduce how much implicit info is in them, by testing say a 3-D computer model for what random added noise will do to the portraits. Next, we ask, is the number of Y/N decisions to get to the portraits > 1,000? Obviously, Y. that is, we see functional specificity and complex information on the same aspect. We are in a narrow target zone. The FSCI by zener noise and PRBS register infinite monkeys experiment then tests whether FSCI, in general, can be had by lucky noise. If FSCI is reasonably and repeatably empirically accessible by lucky noise, the design inference, in all its forms, is dead. Just so, would be the second law of thermodynamics, which is closely related. Why is this specific testing of the accessiblility of FSCI by lucky noise, in general, so hard to see? the question is: can we infer that FSCI is accessible by lucky noise, empirically not just as a logical possibility? If it is, the design inference is dead. Similarly, the issue is NOT whether lucky noise in principle can get us to FSCI. Nor whether chance plus necessity in principle could deliver anything in particular, but whether this is an empirically reasonable and plausible explanation. the insistence that if there is a logical possibility, then we must resort to such, is destructive of science in general, as in principle, every apparent regularity we have ever seen could be sheer lucky coincidence. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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