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On Being Slimed by Nick Matzke

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After interacting with Nick Matzke on several different topics over the last few days, I feel like I know how Peter Venkman felt here (starting at 0:40). 

Let me explain: 

1.  In this post Matzke accused of me of being “incompetent or dishonest” and “ignorantly, uncomprehendingly” quote mining Niles Eldredge for the proposition that “change in the manner Darwin expected is just not found in the fossil record.”   

I proceeded to show that I quoted Eldredge accurately and in context exactly for the proposition I was advancing and requested Matzke to apologize for his boorish accusations.  Instead of doing the right thing, Nick went into full Darwinist spin mode.  He evaded and tried to change the subject.  He never owned up to, much less apologized for, his false accusation. 

2.  In this post I quoted Matzke himself for the proposition that “phylogenetic methods as they exist now can only rigorously detect sister-group relationships, not direct ancestry.” 

I then noted David Berlinski had shown as a matter of pure logic that calling species “sisters” is meaningless if cladistic analysis cannot show they were related through a common ancestor.  Therefore, according to Berlinski, “to the extent that the theory of evolution relies on phylogenetic systematics, the disciplines resemble two biologists dropped from a great height and clutching at one another in mid-air.  Tight fit, major fail.” 

Almost immediately Nick jumped in with one of his famous literature bluffs and asked why Berlinski had failed to refute the papers he cited.  I responded by pointing out to Nick that he did not seem to understand the argument Berlinski was making that followed logically from Matzke’s own statement, which was this: 

Major Premise: In order to support common descent, a method of investigation would need to be capable of detecting direct ancestry. 

Minor Premise: The minor premise is Nick’s own assertion:  “Phylogenetic methods as they exist now can only rigorously detect sister-group relationships, not direct ancestry.”  

Conclusion: Phylogenetic methods as they exist now do not support common descent in any rigorous way.  

Then I asked Nick this question:  “Do any of those papers purport to suspend the basic laws of logic? If so, please give me a summary of how they do that.” 

Once again, Matzke went into full Darwinist spin mode.  He tried to change the subject and, tellingly, said that he would refuse to respond further unless I engaged with him on the new subject instead of the one posed in the OP. 

3.  Finally, in this post I took TSK and antievolution.org to task for their false accusation that I had fabricated the Eldredge quote discussed above.  Of course I did not fabricate the quote as even they were later forced to admit. 

Incredibly, Matzke gratuitously jumped in and tried to defend their antics.  So I asked Nick this question:  If, as you say, what was done to me was OK, does that mean it is OK for me to go around the Internet doing it to you?  If the answer is “yes” I will proceed to do so.  If the answer is “no” then why the hell are you trying to defend it boy? 

I asked a form of this question for the first time on Friday evening and I have asked it again and again since then.  Since Friday evening Nick has posted eight more comments in the combox, but he has steadfastly refused to answer my simple question.  Once again, he has gone into full Darwinist spin mode and tried to change the subject. 

In summary, on three separate occasions in the last several days I have beaten Matzke like a rented mule.  And each time Nick has responded by trying to be slippery, but instead of slippery he has come off as merely slimy. 

Why do I highlight Matzke’s antics?  For this reason.  Nick takes great delight in lording his expertise in the nuts and bolts of biology over the rest of us, and I will be the first to admit that Nick’s expertise in that field far exceeds my lay understanding.  I am not a biologist.  I am, however, a lawyer, and when it comes to argument that has its advantages.  As Phillip Johnson has noted, a lawyer is trained to detect logical fallacies, bad arguments, empty rhetoric disguised as evidence and other “spin” tactics and expose them for what they are.

I can expose Matzke when he uses circular reasoning.  I can expose Matzke when he makes appeals to irrelevant authority (i.e., the “literature bluff,” perhaps Nick’s favorite tactic).  I can expose Matzke when he evades, spins, distracts and distorts.  

Why is it important to expose Matzke’s tactics on issues that are arguably beside the point with respect to the Darwinism/ID debate?  Because a leopard does not, we are reliably informed, change his spots.  And if Matzke engages in these tactics on these side issues, you can be sure he does so on the main issues as well.  

If Matzke is among the best and brightest on the other side, I am going to sleep well tonight.

Comments
This sounds all too familiar to me.
Wow. Matzke sure gets around, doesn't he? And with his characterization of the "Breitbart" website it seems to exemplify the stereotype of the left-wing Marxist. I wonder if the sod ever gets tired of being said stereotype.TSErik
December 16, 2013
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It is exactly the tactics of Matzke and his fellow pro-darwinian cultists that caused me to start doubting my old theistic-evolutionary position and it was Stephen Meyer's video signature in the cell that caused that position to come crashing down for me and I started tyo embrace the ID position, so yes Matzke and his ilk serve a great purpose in being allowed into forums like this.wallstreeter43
December 15, 2013
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This sounds all too familiar to me.TomG
December 15, 2013
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Also, I couldn't help notice how professor Matzke avoided my hypothetical question by bringing up horse evolution out of nowhere. I reminded him twice to no avail. So, I'd like to repeat the challenge here, on a newer topic, to see whether professor Matzke is willing to leave the safety and security of his familiar topics. Professor Matzke, I'm challenging you to imagine, and to apply your knowledge to a new set of circumstances! If a small blue plane---devoid or sterilized of any life--- were ***seeded*** with an amazing spectrum of human-designed organisms (by “spectrum,” I mean that the human-designed species are incredibly numerous due to the fact that college classes frequently design new species---under the supervision of a qualified professor such as yourself---to observe and analyze the results.), leaving them to adapt, migrate, or die, what would the result look like, after thousands, or perhaps even millions of years, and how would it differ from our own small blue planet? Dr. Matzke, what would you imagine? -QQuerius
December 15, 2013
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@ Barry Thanks Barry, I'll take a look...KRock
December 15, 2013
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@5for "KRock, ever hear of this thing called “google”? It’s really cool, you can use it to look up information about things." I have, but I only use google to search for useful information.KRock
December 15, 2013
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Sorry if this is a duplicate post. I rarely post here, so my input may not be representative, but I would absolutely vote against banning Mr. Matzke. He adds some mainstream expert opinion to the topics, and although I don't have enough background to follow everything, I often learn from his posts. I also learn from the refutations of his posts. My laymens opinion of Mr. Matzke is that he has a chip on his shoulder (evidenced by some name calling and tone of some of his posts) when it comes to ID. Of course this is a topic where everybody, on both sides of the issue, has a chip on his/her shoulder, so I don't know how important that is. When I read an accepted experts posts, and then compelling (to me anyway) refutations of his posts, I'm more convinced of ID than I am when I read a lot of "me too" posts. This interaction is a good example. The (very successful in my opinion) refutation of his claims are much more convincing than banning him.dl
December 15, 2013
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KRock, ever hear of this thing called "google"? It's really cool, you can use it to look up information about things.5for
December 15, 2013
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KRock,here's his wiki entry. Perhaps his most enduring claim to fame is his role in getting federal judge to ignore the rules of evidence and accept a literature bluff into evidence at Dover. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_MatzkeBarry Arrington
December 15, 2013
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You'll have to forgive my ignorance Barry, because other than seeing the odd post from this self professing erudite, I have no clue who this Nick Matzke is...KRock
December 15, 2013
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5for @ 6. That’s where you’re wrong. I would have no problem banning a narcissistic psychopath posting under a pseudonym. Also, learn the proper use of the subjunctive. Barry Arrington
December 15, 2013
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So Matzke in essence serves to show us all how NOT to do it? Haha ok.humbled
December 15, 2013
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Mapou @5: Besides, if one narcissistic psychopath was banned there would be pressure to be consistent and ban all of them and that would severely deplete the number of commentators here at UD.5for
December 15, 2013
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Barry Arrington @4, You got an excellent point. It's fun seeing them jump up and down and foam at the mouth.Mapou
December 15, 2013
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Mapou asks, “Why not just ban the narcissistic psychopath?” Are you kidding me? Every time Matzke comes into these pages he helps us. Pass up the chance to have a nationally prominent Darwinist consistently make himself look foolish (and by extension his cause)? Not likely. I should put him on the payroll (if we had one).Barry Arrington
December 15, 2013
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@Barry Arrington, you seem to have missed my comment in the other thread... [snip] UD Editors: And you seem to have missed the terms of reinstatement of your comment privileges. Apologize for your false quote mining accusation. DiEb
December 15, 2013
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Why not just ban the narcissistic psychopath? That's what I would do.Mapou
December 15, 2013
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And I hunker down and wait for the inevitable umpteenth change of topic from Matzke. Or, perhaps like yesterday, we will see him clamor his legions to distract. To paraphrase George A. Romero, it is the Dawn of the Darwinists!TSErik
December 15, 2013
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