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On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

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I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
vjtorley,
Sorry for not replying sooner, but I was unable to get home last night, as the earthquake in Japan stopped train services. I spent the night sleeping (or trying to sleep) in a shopping mall near Yokohama station.
My thoughts are with you. I hope the planned rolling blackouts aren't too much of a hardship and that you are upwind of the nuclear plants. Good luck and be careful.MathGrrl
March 14, 2011
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CJYman,
In the end, programming a CSI calculator would not be difficult as the only calculations required are multiplication and logarithm. Asking the right questions for a user to input the proper values in the proper locations might be difficult, though.
I agree, which is why I find CSI as currently defined to be non-rigorous, mathematically. I would be very interested in seeing how you would calculate CSI for the four scenarios I describe in 117 above.
Furthermore, if you will read through my provided links above again, you will notice that I have no qualm with evolutionary mechanisms generating CSI.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'd like to ask one question about this statement in particular. Do you therefore agree that software simulations of evolutionary mechanisms are capable of generating CSI without intelligent intervention? That is, do you agree that CSI can arise solely from mechanisms such as mutation and crossover combined with differential reproductive success without any interference in the simulation once it is running?
Intelligence can use whatever means are at its disposal, including evolutionary algorithms, to generate CSI. The problem is whether or not chance and law, absent intelligence, can generate evolutionary algorithms that produce CSI.
I don't understand this statement. The real world exists (unless you want to argue for nihilism or solipsism, in which case I'll leave you to it). The physics and chemistry we observe leads to the evolutionary mechanisms we observe (I'm leaving aside abiogenesis for the moment). Unless you're claiming that an unobserved intelligent agent of some sort is involved in all the biochemistry performed in all the labs around the world, it seems that we can see evolutionary algorithms arising from natural processes.MathGrrl
March 14, 2011
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Hey vjtorley, Thanks for that note on theodicy's. It'll be something for me to ponder on. - SonfaroSonfaro
March 13, 2011
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Markf I think this will have to be my last post on this thread, as I'm having trouble bringing it up on my PC - it seems to be eating into my computer's virtual memory. And while I'd like to start a new thread, I'm currently working on an interesting one I promised I'd do for my next post. I'll just make a few general comments. First, I agree that a high degree of CSI, as originally defined by Professor Dembski in his 2005 paper "Specification: The Pattern that Specifies Intelligence" is not sufficient by itself to warrant a design inference. I've been thinking about this in connection with gene duplication. Perhaps we can visualize it more clearly if we think of "base duplication" rather than gene duplication, as a gene still contains a random string of bases (A, G, T and C). Suppose one of the bases on a gene is substituted for the base next to it, and the next one, and so on, until eventually the entire gene consists of only that base (and its partner on the other helix). Now let the process continue all the way along a genome, until it's all A's on one helix (and all T's on the other helix) - a very boring genome. We've now got a sequence which is very simply described (low descriptive complexity) but also very unlikely to arise by pure chance (high probabilistic complexity). But is a design inference warranted here? Surely not. Abel would call this an example of order rather than complexity. And I think he would be right. This sequence doesn't have a function or a meaning. There seems nothing mind-like about it. Should we then give up on CSI, and say that only FCSI warrants a design inference? I think not. Abel himself acknowledges that not only functional information, but also meaningful but non-functional information, can warrant a design inference. Think of Carl Sagan's "Contact": if we detected a sequence of digits corresponding to the first 100 prime numbers coming from outer space, then we'd certainly infer design. Ditto if we detected a sequence of digits corresponding to pi or e. But what's interesting about these cases is that the actual sequence of digits is not compressible. Pi and e are irrational. So I'm inclined to think that the combination of low descriptive complexity, high probabilistic complexity AND a high level of Shannon information (non-compressibility), taken together, warrants a design inference. If these three conditions are met, then you CAN infer design just by looking at a pattern, from its mathematical properties alone (independently of function). Thus CSI (suitably redefined) CAN warrant a design inference. I haven't written down a precise mathematical formula expressing this idea - I'll have to turn that over in my head for a while. But I hope you and MathGrrl can see what I'm getting at. Regarding gene duplication: since the low descriptive complexity comes at the expense of Shannon complexity, I think a design inference is ruled out. I do sympathize with your confusion at the inconsistent statements made by some ID proponents on the criteria that warrant a design inference. For instance, I think that the confusion over Kolmogorov complexity stems from the fact that some patterns which are low in Kolmogorov complexity are also easily compressible (e.g. ababab). That's why I added the condition of high Shannon complexity. I think everyone in the ID community agrees, though, that a high degree of FCSI warrants a design inference. The non-functional cases are a bit harder to pin down, and this is a fairly new area of mathematics, so it's hardly surprising that formulations attempting to lay down the criteria for inferring design have to be modified when counter-instances are put forward. Still, I see this as a healthy sign. At least we're making progress. Regarding the futility of theodicies, I'd like to quote the closing two paragraphs of David Bentley Hart's article, Tsunami and Theodicy , which originally appeared in the March 2005 issue of "First Things", after the Boxing Day tsunami of December 2004, and which was reprinted in the January 2010 edition of "First Things":
I do not believe we Christians are obliged - or even allowed - to look upon the devastation visited upon the coasts of the Indian Ocean and to console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God's goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery. Ours is, after all, a religion of salvation; our faith is in a God who has come to rescue His creation from the absurdity of sin and the emptiness of death, and so we are permitted to hate these things with a perfect hatred. For while Christ takes the suffering of his creatures up into his own, it is not because he or they had need of suffering, but because he would not abandon his creatures to the grave. And while we know that the victory over evil and death has been won, we know also that it is a victory yet to come, and that creation therefore, as Paul says, groans in expectation of the glory that will one day be revealed. Until then, the world remains a place of struggle between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, life and death; and, in such a world, our portion is charity. As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes - and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, "Behold, I make all things new."
That pretty well sums up my sentiments, for earthquakes and tsunamis anywhere. I hope this answers your questions.vjtorley
March 13, 2011
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Jon, Sorry I could not help, it appears we are not even speaking the same language though we both speak English! -------------- Though we are apart in our language, Maybe we both can appreciate this song, for I believe music is referred to as the 'universal language' Christy Nockels – Waiting Here For You http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=9CFF01NUbornagain77
March 13, 2011
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You know that is all very interesting, but none of it even comes close to answering my question to you. I think this is unlikely to go anywhere. At any rate, we can end on one point of agreement as it relates to your first paragraph in comment 329.jon specter
March 13, 2011
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This following paper clearly reveals that there is a 'cost' to duplicate genes that further precludes the scenario from being plausible: Experimental Evolution of Gene Duplicates in a Bacterial Plasmid Model Excerpt: In a striking contradiction to our model, no such conditions were found. The fitness cost of carrying both plasmids increased dramatically as antibiotic levels were raised, and either the wild-type plasmid was lost or the cells did not grow. This study highlights the importance of the cost of duplicate genes and the quantitative nature of the tradeoff in the evolution of gene duplication through functional divergence. http://www.springerlink.com/content/vp471464014664w8/ This recent paper also found the gene duplication scenario to be highly implausible: The Extinction Dynamics of Bacterial Pseudogenes - Kuo and Ochman - August 2010 Excerpt: "Because all bacterial groups, as well as those Archaea examined, display a mutational pattern that is biased towards deletions and their haploid genomes would be more susceptible to dominant-negative effects that pseudogenes might impart, it is likely that the process of adaptive removal of pseudogenes is pervasive among prokaryotes." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/08/on_reductive_evolution_and_the037581.html Further comments on the implausibility of the gene duplication scenario: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1u-mn_eUVxx5aSv_iz6xkRXbqJri_ZxJLY2Q9Hx02-X4 ------------- It should also be noted that neo-Darwinists, since they have such a extreme difficulty proving that purely material processes can generate any functional information whatsoever, that life is packed to the brim with information,,, "The manuals needed for building the entire space shuttle and all its components and all its support systems would be truly enormous! Yet the specified complexity (information) of even the simplest form of life - a bacterium - is arguably as great as that of the space shuttle." J.C. Sanford - Geneticist - Genetic Entropy and the Mystery Of the Genome 'The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica." Carl Sagan, "Life" in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894 of note: The 10^12 bits of information number for a bacterium is derived from entropic considerations, which is, due to the tightly integrated relationship between information and entropy, considered the most accurate measure of the transcendent information present in a 'simple' life form. For calculations please see the following site: Molecular Biophysics – Information theory. Relation between information and entropy: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=18hO1bteXTPOqQtd2H12PI5wFFoTjwg8uBAU5N0nEQIE Systems biology: Untangling the protein web - July 2009 Excerpt: Vidal thinks that technological improvements — especially in nanotechnology, to generate more data, and microscopy, to explore interaction inside cells, along with increased computer power — are required to push systems biology forward. "Combine all this and you can start to think that maybe some of the information flow can be captured," he says. But when it comes to figuring out the best way to explore information flow in cells, Tyers jokes that it is like comparing different degrees of infinity. "The interesting point coming out of all these studies is how complex these systems are — the different feedback loops and how they cross-regulate each other and adapt to perturbations are only just becoming apparent," he says. "The simple pathway models are a gross oversimplification of what is actually happening." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v460/n7253/full/460415a.html etc.. etc.. etc...bornagain77
March 13, 2011
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further note: Waiting Longer for Two Mutations - Michael J. Behe Excerpt: Citing malaria literature sources (White 2004) I had noted that the de novo appearance of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum was an event of probability of 1 in 10^20. I then wrote that 'for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would have to wait 100 million times 10 million years' (1 quadrillion years)(Behe 2007) (because that is the extrapolated time that it would take to produce 10^20 humans). Durrett and Schmidt (2008, p. 1507) retort that my number ‘is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given’ using their model (which nonetheless "using their model" gives a prohibitively long waiting time of 216 million years). Their criticism compares apples to oranges. My figure of 10^20 is an empirical statistic from the literature; it is not, as their calculation is, a theoretical estimate from a population genetics model. http://www.discovery.org/a/9461 Whale Evolution Vs. Population Genetics - Richard Sternberg PhD. in Evolutionary Biology - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4165203 Darwinism Vs. Whale Evolution - Part 1 - Richard Sternberg PhD. - SMU talk - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5263733 Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution "Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge.html Again I would like to emphasize, I’m not arguing Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems, the data on malaria, and the other examples, are a observation that it does not. In science observation beats theory all the time. So Professor (Richard) Dawkins can speculate about what he thinks Darwinian processes could do, but in nature Darwinian processes have not been shown to do anything in particular. Michael Behe - 46 minute mark of video lecture on 'The Edge of Evolution' for C-SPAN https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-behe-lecture-recommend/comment-page-1/#comment-361037bornagain77
March 13, 2011
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Jon, since I think we have both grossly misunderstood each other in our approaches, let us try to start off on a new foot and turn the other cheek to what we both feel have been slanders by the other???.,,, I am not a mathematician thus I have to rely on others who are qualified in that area. As well I have to rely directly on empirical evidence to refute the baseless claims of neo-Darwinists. ,,, I can point you to someone who is very well versed in the mathematics for your gene duplication question, (he has responded to a sincere question before) and I can cite the evidence that brings into question the whole gene duplication scenario,,, notes: First this man for the math; The GS (genetic selection) Principle – David L. Abel – 2009 Excerpt: Stunningly, information has been shown not to increase in the coding regions of DNA with evolution. Mutations do not produce increased information. Mira et al (65) showed that the amount of coding in DNA actually decreases with evolution of bacterial genomes, not increases. This paper parallels Petrov’s papers starting with (66) showing a net DNA loss with Drosophila evolution (67). Konopka (68) found strong evidence against the contention of Subba Rao et al (69, 70) that information increases with mutations. The information content of the coding regions in DNA does not tend to increase with evolution as hypothesized. Konopka also found Shannon complexity not to be a suitable indicator of evolutionary progress over a wide range of evolving genes. Konopka’s work applies Shannon theory to known functional text. Kok et al. (71) also found that information does not increase in DNA with evolution. As with Konopka, this finding is in the context of the change in mere Shannon uncertainty. The latter is a far more forgiving definition of information than that required for prescriptive information (PI) (21, 22, 33, 72). It is all the more significant that mutations do not program increased PI. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces formal function. No increase in Shannon or Prescriptive information occurs in duplication. What the above papers show is that not even variation of the duplication produces new information, not even Shannon “information.” http://www.bioscience.org/2009/v14/af/3426/3426.pdf Furthermore Dr. Abel's observations for the inadequacy necessity and chance to produce functional prescriptive information, even by gene duplication, is bore out by empirics: Response from Ralph Seelke to David Hillis Regarding Testimony on Bacterial Evolution Before Texas State Board of Education, January 21, 2009 Excerpt: He has done excellent work showing the capabilities of evolution when it can take one step at a time. I have used a different approach to show the difficulties that evolution encounters when it must take two steps at a time. So while similar, our work has important differences, and Dr. Bull’s research has not contradicted or refuted my own. http://www.discovery.org/a/9951 Behe and Snoke go even further, addressing the severe problems with the Gene Duplication scenario in this following study: Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues: Michael J. Behe and David W. Snoke Excerpt: The fact that very large population sizes—10^9 or greater—are required to build even a minimal [multi-residue] feature requiring two nucleotide alterations within 10^8 generations by the processes described in our model, and that enormous population sizes are required for more complex features or shorter times, seems to indicate that the mechanism of gene duplication and point mutation alone would be ineffective, at least for multicellular diploid species, because few multicellular species reach the required population sizes. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2286568 Interestingly Fred Hoyle arrived at the same conclusion, of a 2 amino acid limit, years earlier from a 'mathematical' angle: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/uh-oh-is-he-going-to-get-gould-ed/comment-page-2/#comment-367658 The Limits of Complex Adaptation: An Analysis Based on a Simple Model of Structured Bacterial Populations - Douglas D. Axe* - December 2010 quote of note: ,, the most significant implication comes not from how the two cases contrast but rather how they cohere—both showing severe limitations to complex adaptation. To appreciate this, consider the tremendous number of cells needed to achieve adaptations of such limited complexity. As a basis for calculation, we have assumed a bacterial population that maintained an effective size of 10^9 individuals through 10^3 generations each year for billions of years. This amounts to well over a billion trillion (10^21) opportunities (in the form of individuals whose lines were not destined to expire imminently) for evolutionary experimentation. Yet what these enormous resources are expected to have accomplished, in terms of combined base changes, can be counted on the fingers. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4/BIO-C.2010.4 Evolution by Gene Duplication Falsified - December 2010 Excerpt: The various postduplication mechanisms entailing random mutations and recombinations considered were observed to tweak, tinker, copy, cut, divide, and shuffle existing genetic information around, but fell short of generating genuinely distinct and entirely novel functionality. Contrary to Darwin’s view of the plasticity of biological features, successive modification and selection in genes does indeed appear to have real and inherent limits: it can serve to alter the sequence, size, and function of a gene to an extent, but this almost always amounts to a variation on the same theme—as with RNASE1B in colobine monkeys. The conservation of all-important motifs within gene families, such as the homeobox or the MADS-box motif, attests to the fact that gene duplication results in the copying and preservation of biological information, and not its transformation as something original. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201101.htm#20110103a further notes; Dr. Don Johnson explains the difference between Shannon Information and Prescriptive Information, as well as explaining 'the cybernetic cut', in this following Podcast: Programming of Life - Dr. Donald Johnson interviewed by Casey Luskin - audio podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2010/11/programming_of_life.htmlbornagain77
March 13, 2011
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Jon, slandering me and then accusing me of slandering you again?
Actually, I recapped our discussion to date, noting that you hadn't provided a formula and wrapping up with my conclusion that you really don't know what the formula is. Is that what you consider slander? Okay, now that you have provided a formula that that you have been assured you is the correct one, we can resolve this fairly easily. I have looked at that formula and it is not apparent to me how it differentiates between the base level of design you refer to and the second, additional level of design. Can you work through an example of each for gene with duplications, I'll gladly withdraw my opinion.jon specter
March 13, 2011
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Jon, slandering me and then accusing me of slandering you again? How come it feels so much like a cheap daytime soap opera with you instead of science??? I really don't trust the way you twist stuff around,,, But to defend against your accusations,,,, Though I am not a mathematician, CJYman at 270, has assured me that this formula, which I have referenced for years, is a rough measure of CSI; Functional information and the emergence of bio-complexity: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak: Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define 'functional information,' I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity. For a given system and function, x (e.g., a folded RNA sequence that binds to GTP), and degree of function, Ex (e.g., the RNA-GTP binding energy), I(Ex)= -log2 [F(Ex)], where F(Ex) is the fraction of all possible configurations of the system that possess a degree of function > Ex. Functional information, which we illustrate with letter sequences, artificial life, and biopolymers, thus represents the probability that an arbitrary configuration of a system will achieve a specific function to a specified degree. In each case we observe evidence for several distinct solutions with different maximum degrees of function, features that lead to steps in plots of information versus degree of functions. http://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Hazen_etal_PNAS_2007.pdf Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236 Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins - Kirk K Durston, David KY Chiu, David L Abel and Jack T Trevors - 2007 Excerpt: We have extended Shannon uncertainty by incorporating the data variable with a functionality variable. The resulting measured unit, which we call Functional bit (Fit), is calculated from the sequence data jointly with the defined functionality variable. To demonstrate the relevance to functional bioinformatics, a method to measure functional sequence complexity was developed and applied to 35 protein families.,,, http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47 ----------- I have briefly looked over Szoztak’s method for calculating functional information and upon first inspection it actually appears to be very similar to Dembski’s calculation for CSI. However, I think Dembski’s calculation is a little more detailed, since it measures functional information against both sequence space (as Szostak does) and a universal probability bound. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-non-evolution-of-irreducible-complexity-how-arthur-hunt-fails-to-refute-behe/#comment-373694 Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1208958/bornagain77
March 13, 2011
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-"It may seem tactless but vjtorley had already given an excellent explanation of his own experiences. I respect and like him so this was of great interest – but I had nothing more to ask. The problem of theodicy is an important one but it is often discussed in theory by academics with little personal experience of the worst things nature can do. Here is someone I respect who has just personally experienced nature at its worst." Regardless of the why's, of all the questions you thought to ask - that was it? It was off-topic, unwarranted, and indeed tactless. Well, you got your answer anyway I suppose. (From two sides of the fence no less). I hope the discussion will move foreward now. The topic is of interest. - SonfaroSonfaro
March 13, 2011
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bornagain,
though that is not how you originally framed the question, I’ve already answered your question (as it was originally framed)
I originally asked the question about "how do you differentiate a teleological Darwinian process from one that isn’t?". You responded a comment covering a wide range of subjects with nary a formula or mathematical procedure in sight. The gist of what you were saying was that the entire universe was designed. So, I asked if everything is designed, what use was a design detector. To which you responded, at 307 that you "solidly maintain that CSI is very important if one is concerned with detecting design on top of the design ALREADY establish in the universe." So, I reframed the question in hopes that you would now provide that formula or procedure. Hopes that I see have still gone unfulfilled.
it is apparently one that you have failed to grasp the simplicity of, or it is an answer that you do not want to hear, for whatever reason.
Yes, indeed, I have failed to see how the Shroud of Turin is relevant to detecting design in a genetic sequence. And, let me state that adding for whatever reason at the end, doesn't change the fact that you have slandered me again in the part that I bolded.
I think it best I not try to answer any of your questions, since one, I feel it would be futile, and two, lest I be misconstrued and be accused of questioning the integrity of your faith once again.
I asked a simple question that would be directly answered by providing a formula or mathematical procedure. You threw a whole bunch of stuff against the wall, apparently hoping something would stick. But there was not a formula or procedure in sight. I can only conclude that the answer is, three, you don't know what that formula is, but are too proud to admit it.jon specter
March 13, 2011
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#321 vjtorley I don't know who provided you with the "answer" on gene duplication but it brings us right back to the question of how you recognise/measure CSI. The person who wrote is relating CSI to function. This is not what Dembski was doing in his paper. He was trying to identify a generic mathematical property of patterns which implies design without reference to function or any other external specification. I am sure he failed - but that is another matter. If you tie CSI back to function then you cannot detect design by just looking at a pattern - you have to understand how that pattern participates in a living thing. I don't think the ID community realises the amount of confusion among its own members surrounding CSI, FSCI, dFSCI etc. E.g. when I debated this with Gpuccio sometime ago he agreed that one of his criteria for dFCSI was the exact opposite of one of Dembski's (He saw Kolmogorov complexity as a sign of design, Dembski sees absence of Kolmogorov complexity as a sign of design).markf
March 12, 2011
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#318 CYJman Furthermore, If you wish to refute anything I’ve stated here with regard to the conservation theorems or CSI then just provide evidence that law+chance, absent intelligence will produce either CSI from scratch or an EA which produces CSI. vjtorley has agreed above that gene duplication will produce CSI.markf
March 12, 2011
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#317 Sonfaro A major tragedy occurs and the first thing you ask about is if a religious persons faith has faltered? *sigh* It may seem tactless but vjtorley had already given an excellent explanation of his own experiences. I respect and like him so this was of great interest - but I had nothing more to ask. The problem of theodicy is an important one but it is often discussed in theory by academics with little personal experience of the worst things nature can do. Here is someone I respect who has just personally experienced nature at its worst. For the record, as far as THIS religious person goes, seeing as we believe eveything works together for the good, I’m not sure why you’d even bother to ask this. I can only point to vjtorley's own response: the quake didn’t weaken my faith in God, but it reinforced my views on the silliness of theodicies which rationalize suffering. markf
March 12, 2011
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Sonfaro, bornagain77 and markf Thanks for your kind thoughts. markf: In answer to your question, the quake didn't weaken my faith in God, but it reinforced my views on the silliness of theodicies which rationalize suffering. One answer I've received on gene duplication and CSI:
With regard to your question, Phi_s(T) is the 'number of patterns for which ......' (as you stated). I take this to be the number of different patterns, or number of different sequences that will perform the same function. The key word here is 'different'. It is nonsense to try to measure CSI by arbitrarily duplication. You will get a different answer every time, depending upon whether you have duplicated the gene three times, or three trillion times. The only way gene duplication will increase CSI is if the two genes perform a function that one gene alone will not perform. In that case, the double gene forms a single functional pattern.
Got to go now. Talk to you soon.vjtorley
March 12, 2011
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jon, though that is not how you originally framed the question, I've already answered your question (as it was originally framed) and it is apparently one that you have failed to grasp the simplicity of, or it is an answer that you do not want to hear, for whatever reason. Furthermore, it is an answer that you accused me of questioning your relationship of God with?!? Thus since I have better things to do than rehash what is blatantly obvious and being accused of slandering a man's relationship with God, though I intended no such thing, I think it best I not try to answer any of your questions, since one, I feel it would be futile, and two, lest I be misconstrued and be accused of questioning the integrity of your faith once again.bornagain77
March 12, 2011
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Bornagain, Since you are participating again at 316, despite saying you were done at 307, can I assume that you will honor me with an answer to my question: How does one differentiate between a Darwinian process that only has one level of design and one that has two levels of design?jon specter
March 12, 2011
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markf: "You are presumably referring to the “law of conservation of information”. You write as though this was an accepted law. It is highly controversial and in my view fallacious. I wrote a small piece about it some time ago. But I am far from alone." I'll check out your piece when I have some extra time, but so far I have not read any near convincing "rebuttals." I only referred to the conservation of information as an hypothesis that is founded upon presumably correct mathematics, and which is consistent with both observation and expermination with EAs. Furthermore, If you wish to refute anything I've stated here with regard to the conservation theorems or CSI then just provide evidence that law+chance, absent intelligence will produce either CSI from scratch or an EA which produces CSI. As I pointed out in my last comment ... "IOW, if an evolutionary algorithm produces CSI as an output, the EA was intelligently designed with foresight of how the search space constraints relate to the target function (as per the NFLT). That is basically how useful EAs, which can produce CSI patterns such as an efficient antenna, operate. Can anyone show law+chance absent intelligence either producing CSI or an EA that can produce CSI? That is, will a random set of laws and initial conditions derived from a source of statistically random data (ie: Random.org) — so as to remove interferring intelligent/foresighted input — generate CSI or an EA which then produces CSI? Until someone shows that foresight is not required to build an EA, by providing evidence that answers the previous question in the affirmative, the present mathematical and observational evidence shows that evolution can only be seen as a process requiring intelligence."CJYman
March 12, 2011
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@markf -"As a matter of interest, did it in any degree weaken your confidence in an all powerful and loving God?" A major tragedy occurs and the first thing you ask about is if a religious persons faith has faltered? *sigh* For the record, as far as THIS religious person goes, seeing as we believe eveything works together for the good, I'm not sure why you'd even bother to ask this. Especially when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I wonder sometimes what the irrelegious are thinking when they type stuff like this. Just sad. - SonfaroSonfaro
March 12, 2011
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markf, you said that the law of conservation of information is fallacious; Well prove it and collect 1 million dollars,,, "The Origin-of-Life Prize" ® (hereafter called "the Prize") will be awarded for proposing a highly plausible natural-process mechanism for the spontaneous rise of genetic instructions in nature sufficient to give rise to life. The explanation must be consistent with empirical biochemical, kinetic, and thermodynamic concepts as further delineated herein, and be published in a well-respected, peer-reviewed science journal(s). http://www.us.net/life/ markf, you probably say that it is unfair toi use 'simple life' as a benchmark, well I would be satisfied if you could just falsify Dr. Abel's null hypothesis for the generation of prescriptive information, although I don't have a million dollars to give you if you do, but at least you will have proven your point and falsified the law of Conservation of Information with actual empirical evidence instead of rhetoric!;bornagain77
March 12, 2011
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#309 vjtorley I am delighted to know you came through this awful event OK. As a matter of interest, did it in any degree weaken your confidence in an all powerful and loving God?markf
March 12, 2011
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Dr. Torley, Glad you're OK. Video - A Prayer After the Earthquake http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=9C2EEMNUbornagain77
March 12, 2011
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#310 The problem is whether or not chance and law, absent intelligence, can generate evolutionary algorithms that produce CSI. According to the recent work done by Dembski and Marks, the answer is that the the EA itself is at least as improbable as the output of that EA. You are presumably referring to the "law of conservation of information". You write as though this was an accepted law. It is highly controversial and in my view fallacious. I wrote a small piece about it some time ago. But I am far from alone.markf
March 12, 2011
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Has anyone here heard of "General Intelligent Design"?kuartus
March 12, 2011
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@vjtorley It's good to know you're alright buddy.Sonfaro
March 12, 2011
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Indium: "Surprising and very promising. Everybody (except for Joseph who seems to run out of arguments) agrees that evolution can generate CSI. And this on an ID blog! This thread will be a great reference for the future. Maybe you should put this conclusion into the “Glossary” on the front page?" Technically, we (including Joseph) have been stating that evolution can "unfold" previously existing CSI -- ie: from the CSI content of the structure of an EA. Evolutionary Algorithms can definitely produce CSI as an output, but here's the problem ... (from the last para of my last post above) ..."Intelligence can use whatever means are at its disposal, including evolutionary algorithms, to generate CSI. The problem is whether or not chance and law, absent intelligence, can generate evolutionary algorithms that produce CSI. According to the recent work done by Dembski and Marks, the answer is that the the EA itself is at least as improbable as the output of that EA. Therefore, if chance and law can’t generate CSI from scratch, then it won’t be able to generate the evolutionary algorithm that can produce that CSI. Again, I have discussed this in the links I provided earlier." IOW, if an evolutionary algorithm produces CSI as an output, the EA was intelligently designed with foresight of how the search space constraints relate to the target function (as per the NFLT). That is basically how useful EAs, which can produce CSI patterns such as an efficient antenna, operate. Can anyone show law+chance absent intelligence either producing CSI or an EA that can produce CSI? That is, will a random set of laws and initial conditions derived from a source of statistically random data (ie: Random.org) -- so as to remove interferring intelligent/foresighted input -- generate CSI or an EA which then produces CSI? Until someone shows that foresight is not required to build an EA, by providing evidence that answers the previous question in the affirmative, the present mathematical and observational evidence shows that evolution can only be seen as a process requiring intelligence. P.S. Just in case anyone attempts to use the "weather simulation argument" as some sort of argument that "you can't say that a simulation -- including evolutionary algorithms -- requires intelligence or else we would have to state that all weather events are intelligently deisgned," I will point out that ... -Weather *forecasts* definitely require an intelligently designed set of rules. That, I'm sure is undisputable. This only tells us that the forecast itself is intelligently designed. -However, as to weather *patterns:* The difference between a "weather pattern simulation" and a "simulation of an evolutionary algorithm producing CSI" is that weather patterns can be arrived at from a random set of laws and intitial conditions (law+chance absent intelligence), producing chaotic patterns which are mathematically indistinguishable from the types of patterns which make up "weather." However, no one has shown that CSI or an EA that outputs a CSI pattern can be generated from a random set of laws and initital conditions (law+chance absent intelligence).CJYman
March 12, 2011
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Markf and Mathgrrl: Thank you both for your posts. Sorry for not replying sooner, but I was unable to get home last night, as the earthquake in Japan stopped train services. I spent the night sleeping (or trying to sleep) in a shopping mall near Yokohama station. One thing I learned: newspaper wrapped around your legs does not keep you very warm. Another thing: cold floors are very difficult to sleep on. It's a good thing they had the air conditioners on, or I would have frozen. The relief workers finally handed out blankets and cardboard for us to sit on around 5 a.m. Everyone remained very calm, and the emergency relief workers did a very professional job. Further north, of course, the tragedy was much, much worse: over 1,000 people died. I would invite anyone who thinks ill of homeless people to think again. They don't have air conditioning, like I did. They really have it rough, night after night after night. I can think of no group which is more deserving of our charity than the homeless. Markf, you asked an excellent and very probing question in your last post (#305), which followed up on my post in #283. You wrote:
It appears that you believe that CSI is sometimes a useful way to detect design and sometimes not. Is that right?
Actually, what I suspect is that IF the mathematics in my previous post in #283 are correct (and I'm not sure about that), then the definition of CSI may have to be revised somewhat. Right now, I'm asking some people I know to check my calculations, so I'll get back to you on that one. Stay tuned. You also wrote:
If so, if you come across some CSI how do you know if it is a sign of design?
A very good question. See above. MathGrrl (#295): You wrote:
Why are you using "x2" instead of the actual sequence? Using the "two to the power of the length of the sequence" definition of CSI, we should be calculating based on the actual length.
Good question. The "x2" refers to the semiotic description. Let me put it another way, borrowing an example from the old joke about what dogs understand when their owners are talking: "Blah Blah Blah Blah Ginger Blah Blah" - except that in this case the "Blah" is not repetitive. In the original, it's a long random string, then the gene that gets duplicated, and then more random stuff. And the gene that gets duplicated is itself a random string. To make things easier to visualize, I imagined that the duplicated gene was right at the end. I wrote the random stuff as "!@#$%^" even though of course it's all A's G's, T's and C's. I wrote the gene itself as (AGTCGAGTTC), even though a real gene has about 100,000 bases (and of course it's random too). Thus after the gene duplication, the simplest semiotic description is not !@#$%^(AGTCGAGTTC)(AGTCGAGTTC), but !@#$%^(AGTCGAGTTC)x2, which is much more economical. I hope that explains where I'm coming from. As I said to markf, I'm having the math checked out at the moment, so I'll get back to you when I can.vjtorley
March 12, 2011
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bornagain, This statement (especially the bolded part):
As for you saying that CSI is completely superfluous, that is only true if one does not care to see or know where and if God has interceded further in the universe He created and sustains
is a backhanded statement about my faith and my interest in understanding intelligent design.
I solidly maintain that CSI is very important if one is concerned with detecting design on top of the design ALREADY establish in the universe.
This statement is practically nonsensical, but I'll play along. How does one differentiate between a Darwinian process that only has one level of design and one that has two levels of design?jon specter
March 12, 2011
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