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One Nobel Reason for Believing that Artificial Selection is more Powerful than Natural Selection

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There’s been quite a lot of conversation about our three newest recepients of the Nobel Prize in chemistry, partially, if not principally, because one of the three was a woman, Dr. Francis Arnold.

We’ve also read that Dr. Arnold, having gotten nowhere using “rational design” then turned to “evolution,” and with this switch in methodology went on to win the Nobel.

Here’s the NYT’s article where we read such things. Let me quote a section which illustrates what is being implied:

At first, Dr. Arnold attempted “rational design,” employing logic and knowledge of how proteins function to try to build new enzymes — proteins that act as catalysts for chemical reactions. But enzymes are large, complicated molecules — some consisting of thousands of amino acids — and it is hard to figure out how a shift in one twist of the molecule affects how it works.

In desperation, she said, she turned to evolution.

Then we read more:

I copied nature’s inventions, this wonderful process of evolution, to breed molecules like you breed cats and dogs,” she said.

For this “directed evolution” research, she inserted the gene that produced the enzyme she wanted to study into fast-reproducing bacteria. With mutations of the gene, she could then examine how well variations of the enzyme worked. She chose the one that worked best and repeated the process — just like evolution chooses the survival of the fittest over succeeding generations.

When we take the two “bolded” sections together we see that, in fact, Dr. Arnold is consciously equating what she’s doing to artifical selection; i.e., “like . . . [breeding] cats and dogs.”

Doesn’t this work contradict one of the basic tenets of Charles Darwin by indicating that an intelligent observer of nature can modify nature in a way that nature itself cannot accomplish? IOW, that contrary to Darwin’s writings, ‘Artificial Selection’ is actually more powerful in practice than is ‘Natural Selection’.

If Darwinism is to be taken seriously, then, IMO, it is important that biologists demonstrate how the barrier separating lower taxa from higher taxa can be breached in a natural, and not a ‘lab,’ setting.

We don’t find ‘breeds’ of dogs produced in natural settings; we don’t find the enzymes manufactured by Dr. Arnold in naturally living organisms. Isn’t this not confirmation that intelligence at work in nature is more powerful than what nature, left unaided, can bring about by itself?

Comments
Almost all 21st century biology revolves around engineering. Strange, huh? That darn pesky blind watchmaker was a lot smarter than we realized. *wink, wink* *nudge, nudge*Jammer
October 8, 2018
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From PaV's link to ENV:
The two words, “directed” and “evolution,” are together an oxymoron, ...
Wrong. Directed and natural selection together are an oxymoron but directed evolution are exactly what we observe with genetic algorithms. In Dr. Spetner's "Not By Chance" he talks about, guess what, directed evolution via "built-in responses to environmental cues".ET
October 8, 2018
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Nonlin:
Wasn’t the whole point of “evolution” to separate creation from creator?
No, that was the purpose of natural selection-> design without a designer.ET
October 8, 2018
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Ambly:
Artificial selection is not a force in nature, that’s sort of the point of the name.
What? So the different dog breeds do not live and did not occur in nature? Really? Wow.ET
October 8, 2018
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Wasn’t the whole point of “evolution” to separate creation from creator? And now they let the intelligent agent back in? I would not be a happy evolutionist with this interpretation. If “evolution” needs “directions”, then IDsts and neo-Darwinists are all a big, happy, continuously quarreling family :)Nonlin.org
October 8, 2018
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Jawa/PeterA/Dionisio etc, You may not think I'm being genuine when I say this, but I really do mean it. I don't think it is possible that running 4 or 5 (or more) accounts on this website and pretending that they talk (and even argue) among themselves is the best way that you could be spending your time. I'm not going engage with your accounts because, frankly, this seems like a very unhealthy obsession for you and I don't want to encourage it.Amblyrhynchus
October 8, 2018
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I pointed out all of the mistakes in the OP because it was remarkable how error-dense the post was. As RJ points out, you still have the Nobel Prize category wrong! I do think it's hard to take someone how fails so completely seriously. On the "substance" of the OP, I find it very hard to make a distinction between power and speed when it comes to describing the effects of selection. Perhaps you can come with some difference, but it would hardly matter in this case, since speed of change is the reason protein engineers bump up the mutation rates and select so strongly. I don't quite know what to make of this statement
Again, it is clear, and Dr. Arnold’s experimental procedures (and language) make even more clear that Artificial Selection is more powerful a force in nature than is Natural Selection.
Artificial selection is not a force in nature, that's sort of the point of the name.Amblyrhynchus
October 8, 2018
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PaV
Actually, she won the Nobel Prize in Physics and NOT in Chemistry, and was the first woman in 55 years to do so.
Actually, she won the Nobel for Chemistry and NOT physics. It was Dr. Strickland from the University of Waterloo who was the third woman to ever win the Nobel for Physics.R J Sawyer
October 8, 2018
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I presume that everyone looking at this OP has also read this also. You might also want to look here.PaV
October 8, 2018
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AaronS1978: Bingo! You nailed it!PaV
October 8, 2018
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Amblyrhynchus:
FWIW, there is no Nobel prize in biology, “Physiology or Medicine” is the closest but Arnold won hers in chemistry.
Actually, she won the Nobel Prize in Physics and NOT in Chemistry, and was the first woman in 55 years to do so. If you think it's important enough to correct, it would be best if you got it right yourself, right?
Darwin never claimed that natural selection would be more rapid than artificial selection.
I said nothing about 'fast' or 'slow.' I said this, . . . contrary to Darwin’s writings, ‘Artificial Selection’ is actually more powerful in practice than is ‘Natural Selection’."
In fact, when comparing natural selection to artificial selection Darwin pointed out how slow the former is “We see nothing of these slow changes in progress, until the hand of time has marked the long lapses of ages…”. (Turns out Darwin was wrong here, as we no know natural selection can act more rapidly than he thought was possible).
Did you point out the incidental errors in the OP because you reason this way: "If wrong in one thing, then wrong in all things"? Should we apply this same reasoning to Darwin's writings? As to 'fast' and 'slow,' both are problems for Darwinism. Lizards without cecal valves in their guts, when transplanted to a different island in Adriatic where no lizard species are present, develop said valves within 30 generations. wd400, a population geneticist who blogs here, when asked how this happened, said he didn't have an answer. And, after millions and millions of years, we find wolves in the wild, but not Chichuahuas. Again, it is clear, and Dr. Arnold's experimental procedures (and language) make even more clear that Artificial Selection is more powerful a force in nature than is Natural Selection. And, of course, the problem then is that using Artificial Selection, no one can turn a cat into anything else other than a cat. The breeds become more and more feeble. So, what should we make of this all?PaV
October 8, 2018
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FWIW- physiology is a branch of biology.ET
October 8, 2018
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RJ Sawyer:
Wolves, coyotes, hyenas, dingoes.
Not one is a breed of dog and no one can demonstrate natural selection produced any of them.ET
October 8, 2018
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Natural selection is impotent. What it can do is undo what artificial selection did once humans have been removed from the equation.ET
October 8, 2018
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We don’t find ‘breeds’ of dogs produced in natural settings;
Wolves, coyotes, hyenas, dingoes.R J Sawyer
October 8, 2018
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Amblyrhynchus, Glad to see you back after you quit another discussion. Did you get your new book published yet? What is it about? conspiracy theories? :)jawa
October 8, 2018
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Biology is the queen of science these days. Other basic scientific disciplines (physics, chemistry, math) serve biology.jawa
October 8, 2018
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I read the article, it seems more like an advertisement for evolution and then you get a prize for performing evolution. This article stinks of bias. Kudos for Dr. Arnold getting the Nobel prize in chemistry. But the whole “she turned to evolution” and evolution saved the day and won her the Nobel prize just seems more of an advertisement to prove evolution is for realisies. I don’t oppose evolution but this certainly seems fishy. Secondly, it’s not natural selection if you were selecting what you want which from my understanding is not evolution. She pretty much had the bacteria do the dirty work for her and then she selected what she wanted from it. I guess bacteria do a better job at what she was trying to do with her “rational design” possibly because we don’t really understand what’s going on in the first place.AaronS1978
October 8, 2018
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FWIW, there is no Nobel prize in biology, “Physiology or Medicine” is the closest but Arnold won hers in chemistry.
There is a running joke amongst chemists that their prize is in fact for biology.Bob O'H
October 8, 2018
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https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-are-the-limits-of-natural-selection-an-interesting-open-discussion-with-gordon-davisson/PeterA
October 7, 2018
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This is giving News a run for her money in getting things wrong... FWIW, there is no Nobel prize in biology, "Physiology or Medicine" is the closest but Arnold won hers in chemistry. Six women have won science Nobels in the last decade and Darwin never claimed that natural selection would be more rapid than artificial selection. In fact, when comparing natural selection to artificial selection Darwin pointed out how slow the former is "We see nothing of these slow changes in progress, until the hand of time has marked the long lapses of ages...". (Turns out Darwin was wrong here, as we no know natural selection can act more rapidly than he thought was possible).Amblyrhynchus
October 7, 2018
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