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Origenes on the self-defeating incoherence of the [hyper-]skeptic

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Origenes is on fire these days, so let’s headline:

Blind men and an elephant. Notice, the mental conceptions respond to an actual reality and a sufficient experience will provide an objective picture.

[Origenes, emergence play thread, 57:] The skeptic wants to criticize, but he doesn’t want to be criticized himself. We all make statements of belief, skeptics included. But the skeptic posits a closed circle in which no beliefs are justified. Yet at the same time, he arrogates to himself a position outside of this circle by which he can judge the beliefs of others, a move he denies to his opponents. Since the raison d’être of his thesis is that there is no outside of the circle, he does not have the epistemic right to assume a position independent of it, and so his belief about the unjustifiability of beliefs or reasoning is just as unjustifiable as those he criticizes. If the circle encloses all beliefs, if all beliefs are unjustifiable, he cannot judge between truth and falsity, since any such judgment would be just as unjustifiable as what it seeks to adjudicate. At no point can he step out of the circle to a transcendent standpoint that would allow him to reject some beliefs as tainted while remaining untainted himself.

Food for sobering thought. END

Comments
PM1: I’ve explained before why that’s not true. I’m tired of repeating myself so I won’t rehearse what’s already fallen on deaf ears.
Your turnabout projection is very telling. As is your hyper-skepticism and dismissiveness. Topped only by your erection (I am tempted to stop here, but I don’t want KF to get excited) of a strawman set ablaze with oil of red herring. There is more to say, but Plato’s cave and Cicero are calling. Something about lemmings and cliffs.Sir Giles
December 20, 2022
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PM1 on emergence being *POOF* magic:
I’ve explained before why that’s not true. I’m tired of repeating myself so I won’t rehearse what’s already fallen on deaf ears.
It should be noted that emergentism is nothing but a desperate attempt to repair the failed philosophy of naturalism. Naturalism started off by positing that particles in the void are all that exist. A massive blunder because it should have been immediately apparent to anyone that such does not allow for adequate rationality; IOW that it undercuts itself as a coherent rational inquiry. So, naturalism as a philosophy was a non-starter from the very beginning. In hindsight, the stupidity that brought it into existence is truly astounding. Yet the failed hypothesis dominates science and institutions ... I truly feel utterly ashamed of my fellow men.Origenes
December 20, 2022
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KF and Origenes When you two are finally done patting each other on the back, you're more than welcome to come fishin' with me in my leaky boat. I know some really premium trout streams we can float out here in the Rockies. Life jackets are optional. Row, row, row your boat.....chuckdarwin
December 20, 2022
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@16
emergence is manifestly a something from utter non being or chaos poof magic that cannot back up the IF
I've explained before why that's not true. I'm tired of repeating myself so I won't rehearse what's already fallen on deaf ears.PyrrhoManiac1
December 20, 2022
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PM1, the Spartans famously answered a threat by another city state: IF. That is your problem, emergence is manifestly a something from utter non being or chaos poof magic that cannot back up the IF. KFkairosfocus
December 20, 2022
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@11
the only viable answer is, the only credible worldviews are those that have room for rational, responsible, significantly free creatures such as we evidently are; if we are not, rational dialogue and knowledge collapse.
Just for the record, I actually agree with you about that. The main point of contention is that I think there naturalism can easily accommodate this challenge, if (1) the concept of emergence is defensible and (2) emergent naturalism is entitled to hold that teleology, intentionality, rationality, and consciousness are emergent phenomena. But, we've been down that road before, and I don't see much point in another round of mutual incomprehension.PyrrhoManiac1
December 20, 2022
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Kairosfocus, in #11 you say exactly what I think, only you say it better.Origenes
December 20, 2022
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PM1, my outline response there is here. KFkairosfocus
December 20, 2022
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Origenes, you anticipated part of my just now reply to CD. He evidently is in that unhappy, leaking boat. KFkairosfocus
December 20, 2022
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CD, self referentiality of arguments is a huge bugbear, with two key problems. One, can be question begging circularity. The other is far more deadly, self referential incoherence, thence self contradiction and the principle of explosion. As Origenes showed, it is the case for grand skepticism and it easily becomes the case for Agrippa's trilemma. Of course, on worldview level matters, this is redoubled as we are part of the world to be accounted for and self referentiality is inevitable. BTW, this is a key reason for why all significant worldviews face difficulties, and the only viable answer is, the only credible worldviews are those that have room for rational, responsible, significantly free creatures such as we evidently are; if we are not, rational dialogue and knowledge collapse. As a simple example, the blind men and elephants story is often used to relativise knowledge and truth claims, but lurking there is the implicit objectivity of the narrator. So, yes it often comes up, precisely as it is a central problem but one many are unaware of. Indeed, your attempted dismissiveness indicates that you are in that unhappy, leaking boat. KFkairosfocus
December 20, 2022
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Kairosfocus @3
As for global skepticism it is self referential, self referentiality is a main reason why philosophy bristles with difficulties.
I could not agree more. As you suggest, self referential incoherence is not restricted to global skepticism. Indeed, we see philosophies occupying center stage that do not allow for adequate rationality, thereby undercutting themselves as a coherent quest for truth. Unfortunately, there seems to be no general awareness WRT this huge problem.Origenes
December 20, 2022
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@CD, never said I’d purchase Twitter lolAaronS1978
December 20, 2022
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AS1978 I’m not sure buying Twitter is a prudent move. For one thing, I’m sure it would be grossly overpriced. But knock yourself out…..chuckdarwin
December 20, 2022
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My response to the argument in the OP is here.PyrrhoManiac1
December 20, 2022
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@2
the circle metaphor originates with Jim Slagle, who applied it to Freudianism and Marxism, in his book ‘The Epistemological Skyhook.’
Is that book worth reading? I've had my eye on it for a while, and it seems intriguing. I see that Slagle also has a forthcoming book on Plantinga's EAAN. I've long found the EAAN quite deeply confused and unpersuasive, but perhaps Slagle can change my mind. Not that it matters, but I'm inclined to think that Slagle is wrong about Marx and Freud. I don't think either of them, read carefully, are committed to arrogating to themselves an exception that they claim holds of everyone else. They are "local skeptics": they debunk very specific claims about capitalism or about the mind, but they uphold more general claims, such as standards of evidence and criteria of of evaluation of scientific theories. By contrast, Nietzsche is a global skeptic: he casts doubt on truly comprehensive ideas, such as the value of morality or the value of rationality. Nietzsche is fascinating because he is perhaps the most radical skeptic in the entire Western tradition -- far more radical than Montaigne or Hume. This is why Nietzsche's response to "but you've just contradicted yourself!" is to say "yeah, I know, so what?" This is why, I think, the easy and popular conflation of Marx and Freud with Nietzsche is quite badly misleading: Marx and Freud are beholden to epistemic and ethical principles that Nietzsche openly rejects. Marx and Freud are certainly quite radical and subversive up to a point. Marx is critical of the idea that capitalism is the best we could do, in terms of building a society that realizes the values of freedom and equality, but he doesn't call those values into question. Nietzsche calls into question the value of equality itself. Freud is critical of the idea that we are aware of all mental contents, but he doesn't call into question the value of self-knowledge. Nietzsche replaces the scientific goal of self-knowledge with the aesthetic goal of self-transformation -- "creating oneself as a work of art". Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but I wanted to say something about why it's a mistake to read Freud and Marx as Skeptics, in the same sense that Nietzsche is a Skeptic.PyrrhoManiac1
December 20, 2022
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If I had a nickel for every time CD replied to an OP by mocking it I’d think I’d have enough cash to purchase Twitter.AaronS1978
December 20, 2022
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If us "skeptics" had a nickel for every time the phrase "the self-defeating incoherence of the [hyper-]skeptic" appears in these comments, we could take a nice long vacation to Maui and go real surfing. Seriously, what does that phrase even mean? Sounds to me like just a one long theistic whine....chuckdarwin
December 20, 2022
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Origenes, you have been a fishing in waters the hyperskeptics have posted, NO FISHIN. Now we can see why. As for global skepticism it is self referential, self referentiality is a main reason why philosophy bristles with difficulties. Stanford, if it means that global skepticism is not self referential, fails at that point. Good catch. KFkairosfocus
December 20, 2022
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KF@ Thank you for headlining my post, the circle metaphor originates with Jim Slagle, who applied it to Freudianism and Marxism, in his book ‘The Epistemological Skyhook.’ - - - Some comments on the Stanford entry on "Skepticism” by J. Comesaña. “Pyrrhonian Skepticism”:
But some skeptics are skeptics regarding second- (and higher-) order propositions as well as regarding first-order propositions. Following the same ancient tradition, we will call that kind of skepticism “Pyrrhonian Skepticism”. Without any claim to historical accuracy, we will take Pyrrhonian Skepticism to be absolute skepticism—the thesis that suspension of judgment is the only justified attitude with respect to any proposition p. Is Pyrrhonian Skepticism so understood self-refuting?
Allow me to answer this question: (1.) Suspension of judgment is the only justified attitude with respect to ANY proposition p. (2.) (1.) is itself a proposition. From (1.) and (2.) (3.) Suspension of judgment is the only justified attitude with respect to (1.) What does conclusion (3.) mean? It means that we do not know whether or not “Suspension of judgment is the only justified attitude with respect to any proposition p” is true. So, applied to itself, proposition (1.) undercuts itself. It is clearly a self-contradictory statement. The Stanford article goes on to argue that the proposition “the only justified attitude with respect to the proposition that p is suspension of judgment” is not self-contradictory. I agree with this, of course. Surely, it might be the case that suspension of judgment is the justified attitude towards some particular proposition. However, the claim becomes self-contradictory when it is about ANY proposition (which includes itself). So, what is the Stanford article doing here? I really don’t know. Perhaps someone can explain. – – – – More Stanford:
Agrippa’s trilemma, then, can be presented thus: (1.) If a belief is justified, then it is either a basic justified belief or an inferentially justified belief. (2.) There are no basic justified beliefs. Therefore, (3.) If a belief is justified, then it is justified in virtue of belonging to an inferential chain. (4.) All inferential chains are such that either (a) they contain an infinite number of beliefs; or (b) they contain circles; or (c) they contain beliefs that are not justified. (5.) No belief is justified in virtue of belonging to an infinite inferential chain. (6.) No belief is justified in virtue of belonging to a circular inferential chain. (7.) No belief is justified in virtue of belonging to an inferential chain that contains unjustified beliefs. Therefore, (8.)There are no justified beliefs.
At first glance (8.) is clearly a self-contradictory statement. But perhaps there is a reason that it cannot be applied to itself? Unwittingly the Stanford article assures us that it can be applied to itself:
It is interesting to note that Agrippa’s trilemma is perfectly general; in particular, it applies to philosophical positions as well as to ordinary propositions.
OK! It applies to everything! Well, let’s apply it to itself then: (1.) There are no justified beliefs. (2.) (1.) is itself a belief. From (1.) and (2.) (3.) (1.) is not a justified belief. What does (3.) mean? It means that it is not justified to hold the belief that there are no justified beliefs. It follows that there are justified beliefs. Conclusion: ‘Agrippa’s trilemma’ is perfectly self-refuting nonsense … The Stanford article somehow fails to notice this obvious fact.Origenes
December 20, 2022
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Origenes on the self-defeating incoherence of the [hyper-]skeptickairosfocus
December 20, 2022
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