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Origin of Life: Professor James Tour points the way forward for Intelligent Design

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Professor James Tour’s recent video, The Origin of Life – An Inside Story, managed to accomplish three things at once: it shattered the credibility of abiogenesis as a theory; it provided American high school science teachers with an excellent classroom resource for countering evolutionary propaganda; and (perhaps unintentionally), it set a new research agenda for the Intelligent Design movement, which will transform it into a bona fide scientific discipline: the task of reverse-engineering life itself.

Readers who wish to view the talk may do so here:

Why Tour’s talk is the perfect resource for American high school science teachers who want to counteract evolutionary propaganda

At the beginning of his talk, Tour explicitly declared that he would make no reference to “scientifically unknown entities that have been proposed to have seeded life on Earth, such as a design agent (personal or impersonal)”, or the outlandish theory that the Earth was seeded by aliens (panspermia), which merely pushes back the question of life’s origin: where did the aliens come from? This is an important point, because as most readers will be aware, the Dover vs. Kitzmiller decision of 2005 ruled that the teaching of Intelligent Design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, on the grounds that Intelligent Design is not science and “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.” No such objection could possibly be made against Professor Tour’s talk, which will (I believe) prove to be an invaluable teaching resource in American high school science classrooms. For the question of how life evolved cannot be divorced from the question of how life originated: the straitjacket of methodological naturalism, which currently reigns supreme in the scientific world, demands a naturalistic answer to both questions. If the origin of life cannot be explained in this way, then that should weaken scientists’ confidence that macroevolution can be explained without appealing to any intelligently guided processes.

It is important to note that Professor Tour never attempted to refute abiogenesis as a scientific theory, in his talk. Rather, his aim was more modest: to show that the Emperor has no clothes, and that current theories about how life might have evolved are mere speculation, unsupported by a shred of evidence. The take-home message of his talk was that currently, scientists know nothing about how the ingredients of life originated, let alone life itself. Nevertheless, I believe that precisely because Professor Tour’s talk was framed as an expose of the inadequacy of current theories of abiogenesis rather than as a scientific refutation, it did a much better job of undermining the credibility of the idea. For what it showed is that for sixty years, scientists have been “telling lies for Darwin” (to adapt a phrase coined by Ian Plimer) and presenting the problem of life’s origin as a work in progress, when in reality, the progress made to date by scientists in the field is precisely zero.

What is abiogenesis, anyway?

In his talk [2:10], Professor Tour defined abiogenesis as “the prebiotic process whereby life, such as a cell, arises from non-living simple organic compounds: carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins (polymers of amino acids).” Tour added: “On our planet, this is what it is; in our universe, this is what it is. As far as we can tell, we’re the only ones here so far. But certainly on our planet, it’s carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins.

This is an important point to grasp. Defenders of abiogenesis are prone to speculate on the existence of exotic life-forms elsewhere in the cosmos, or in other universes. Even if such exotic life-forms existed, the question which concerns us is: how did cellular life, which relies on the four kinds of chemicals listed by Tour, arise? This is a non-trivial scientific question, and it demands an answer. Moreover, since any process that gave rise to life must have had a computable probability of success, it qualifies as a target, in the special sense of the word, as used by information scientists. In a nutshell: life can be defined as an improbable outcome. Some targets are highly specific (e.g. build this molecule), but the target we call “life,” even if it is narrowed down to “cellular life which is based on carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins,” is a very broad one, which can only be given a general description, since it makes no reference to any particular species (such as Homo sapiens or E. coli). Describing life as a “target” (in this sense) in no way assumes that the process which generated life must have been a guided one: that would be begging the question. All it means is that it must have been an improbable process (to some degree).

So the scientific question we have to address is: how improbable is the emergence of life on an Earth-like planet, over a period of (say) four billion years? Is it moderately probable, astronomically improbable, or somewhere in between?

Professor Tour debunks abiogenesis

(a) The current state of scientific ignorance

In his talk, Professor Tour was refreshingly candid about how little scientists know, not only about the origin of life, but also about the origin of the basic building blocks of life:

We have no idea how the molecules that compose living systems could have been devised such that they would work in concert to fulfill biology’s functions. We have no idea how the basic set of molecules, carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins, were made and how they could have coupled in proper sequences, and then transformed into the ordered assemblies until there was the construction of a complex system, and eventually to that first cell. Nobody has any idea on how this was done when using our commonly understood mechanisms of chemical science. Those who say that they understand are generally wholly uninformed regarding chemical synthesis.

From a synthetic chemical perspective, neither I nor any of my colleagues can fathom a prebiotic molecular route to construction of a complex system. We cannot even figure out the prebiotic routes to the basic building blocks of life: carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins. Chemists are collectively bewildered. Hence I say that no chemist understands prebiotic synthesis of the requisite building blocks, let alone assembly into a complex system.

That’s how clueless we are. I’ve asked all of my colleagues: National Academy members, Nobel Prize winners. I sit with them in offices. Nobody understands this. So if your professor says, “It’s all worked out,” [or] your teachers say, “It’s all worked out,” they don’t know what they’re talking about. It is not worked out.

(b) The difficulties involved in making structures, such as nanocars, which are far simpler than living organisms

Professor Tour then provided his audience with a highly entertaining presentation of his work in designing nano-sized cars (one of which is pictured above), constructed from individual atoms. The key points in his discussion were that a great deal of foresight was needed to complete the task, and even then, it wasn’t smooth sailing: there were a lot of setbacks. Making even minor changes in function to the nanocars often necessitated going back to square one and redesigning them from scratch: something which an unguided process is incapable of doing. Additionally, synthesizing the various products at the desired level of purity was excruciatingly difficult process. Finally, the reagents had to be mixed in a very specific sequence, in order to get the desired product. But the task of building life is far more complex than that of building nanocars, as Tour openly acknowledged:

Some may contend that [in making nanocars], I did not use Nature’s building blocks, such as carbohydrates, amino acids, nucleic acids and lipids. I concede, I took the easy route and used simple synthetic molecules, not Nature’s far more complex compounds where chirality and diastereoselectivity can be enormously problematic in synthesis. Thus here we will consider Nature’s building blocks, showing that many of the common parameters hold, yet they become far more difficult for prebiotic systems than for the synthetic chemist today.

(c) Eleven enormous obstacles confronting unguided processes, in generating even the basic building blocks of life

In his talk, Professor Tour decided to focus on the origin of just one of the four basic building blocks of life: carbohydrates. He then proceeded to list eleven enormous hurdles faced by any blind, unguided process, in generating these compounds:

Let us begin at ground zero with the construction of one basic building block of life: carbohydrates.… So we will just consider the basic building blocks, carbohydrates, prior to their polymerization which requires enzymes… DNA and RNA are like beads hanging on a string. You’ve got to have the string. You’ve got to have carbohydrates…

The 11-point details with Nature’s constructs

1. A choice of target was needed for the nanocars. How do we know what to target? Towards which structure do we optimize to have an adequately functional system for a task? Take for example the pentose sugars, one of the more common carbohydrate sizes, and that used for DNA and RNA.

Pentose sugars have three stereogenic centers, so eight possible isomers (substructures, some being the enantiomers which are mirror-image related and the others being diastereomers which involve subtle orientational differences), and all are chiral, meaning [that] they have a nonsuperimposable mirror image. But what if we do not know the target, then the complexity of the problem would certainly be compounded.

Specifically, we needed a five-carbon sugar, D-(-)-ribose in particular, selected from the set of eight possible pentoses. Further, for DNA, it has to be one hydroxyl group deficient, or deoxyribose. If it is not, then it will be suitable for RNA, but far less stable. But prebiotic systems never knew any of this; there was a blinded pathway to a host of products, somehow selecting the one desired long before any selection agent could have been biologically available. And what are the selection criteria? It is hard to know if we do not know the target. And even if the target were known, the selector would be another molecule at least as complex as the desired analyte [a chemical substance that is the subject of chemical analysis – VJT]. And what selected the selector?

2. Solubility problems were confronted in the nanocar. Same problem for abiogenesis.

3. Molecular flexibility (a less rigid chassis) was needed… This was part of the redesign needed. Prebiotic chemistry would have to do the same, redesigning structures when desired function (and what is desired function since no target was foreseen?) was not realized. Thus much of [the] work that was done to that point would likely have to be discarded, increasing the difficulty for a prebiotic system.

4. When we added a motor to the motorcars, the former chassis were not sufficient to accommodate the motors. Likewise, in prebiotic chemistry, this again sends the system back to the beginning.

5. When we desired to go from a slow motor to a fast motor, though the stator was reusable, the rotor was not. The rotor had to be redesigned, from step one, so as to become a faster unidirectional rotor. In prebiotic systems, for small changes, we cannot use a blackboard to delete atoms or to insert atoms. Often redesigns are needed which send the system back to the origin of the synthesis. This is further exacerbated by the fact that there is no specified target in abiogenesis. [As I explained above, the target in abiogenesis is a general one, rather than a predefined one – VJT.]

6. Just as our motor no longer functioned when the original wheels were present, and we did not realize it until the synthesis was complete, any prebiotic system is destined, at least some of the time, to experience such a disappointment, thereby sending the system back to the beginning. But it does not know how to stop it current course of progression, or why to stop. The prebiotic system will continue to make derivatives of nonfunctioning entities.

7. To get chemical reactions occurring in high yield is difficult. In our synthetic case, we design the reactions to minimize diastereomic mixtures that can be nearly impossible to separate. Hence, even with all of our developed separation protocols and equipment, we try our best to avoid the undesired diastereomers because the separations are too time-consuming and expensive. Plus they waste a huge amount of the starting materials generating unwanted products. And enantiomeric separations are all the more difficult. Nature has chosen a far harder route, using only one enantiomer (homochiral) in a system with multiple stereogenic centers.

8. In the synthesis of the nanocars, we had the convenience of the JIT [just-in-time] delivery of chemicals, and storage of intermediates in safe and stable conditions until needed for the next step… In the laboratory, as anywhere else, it is essential to stop a reaction before the desired product degrades… Time is your enemy, when you’re making kinetic products…. Thus after a few years, which is a brief moment in time by prebiotic terms, there would be little if any of the pentoses left, let alone the more rapid loss of the desired ribose 2,4-diphosphate… Prebiotic chemistry is extremely difficult to perform even for the world’s best synthetic chemists like Eschenmoser, so he chose a more convenient model study system.

9. Reagent addition order is critical as seen in the detailed experimental protocols. In other words, A needs to be added before B and then C, and each at its own specific temperature to effect a proper reaction and coupling yield.

10. The parameters of temperature, pressure, solvent, light or no light, pH, oxygen or no oxygen, moisture or no moisture, have to be carefully controlled to build complex molecular structures. Unless one can devise sophisticated promoters or catalysts that are stable in air and moisture and can work at common atmospheric conditions, precise control must be maintained.

11. The characterization at each step is essential, and even more so if we ever have to bring up more material for the synthesis.

Summary of the 11 criteria

Therefore, small changes in ultimate functioning require major rerouting in the synthetic approaches. All changes, when doing chemistry, are hard and cannot be done by the usual hand-waving arguments or simple erasures on a board. Laborious and intentional elements of forethought are required.

(d) Why chemists need to resort to reverse engineering, in order to resolve problems regarding life’s origin

Next, Professor Tour explained why chemists need to engage in reverse engineering, when trying to synthesize desired products:

Why do synthetic chemists use retrosynthetic approaches to build complex molecules? Because without the retrosynthetic approach, discerning one’s way to desired products is far too complex, leading to dead-ends that are overwhelmingly abundant, generating massive amounts of undesired products, and exhausting precious supplies that might have taken huge efforts to prepare. But Nature cannot perform retrosynthetic analyses, if we presuppose that the starting points progressed to a non-predefined endpoint. Again, this is utterly perplexing for the synthetic chemist.

How could this have happened in prebiotic chemistry? How do you go from a starting material to a product that’s a complex product? What we do is we work our way back slowly. But Nature doesn’t know what its product is going to be at the end! It doesn’t know! It’s just blindly going along.

(e) The ultimate problem: even if you had all the ingredients of life, they can’t assemble without enzymes

Professor Tour provided the final coup de grace in his expose of current scientific theories regarding abiogenesis. It turns out that even if you could get all the ingredients of life together, at a high level of purity, and store them over long periods, they can’t assemble without enzymes:

Let us assume that all the building blocks of life, not just their precursors, could be made in high degrees of purity, including homochirality where applicable, for all the carbohydrates, all the amino acids, all the nucleic acids and all the lipids. And let us further assume that they are comfortably stored in cool caves, away from sunlight, and away from oxygen, so as to be stable against environmental degradation. And let us further assume that they all existed in one corner of the earth, and not separated by thousands of kilometers or on different planets. And that they all existed not just in the same square kilometer, but in neighboring pools where they can conveniently and selectively mix with each other as needed.

Now what? How do they assemble? Without enzymes, the mechanisms do not exist for their assembly. It will not happen and there is no synthetic chemist that would claim differently because to do so would take enormous stretches of conjecturing beyond any that is realized in the field of chemical sciences…

I just saw a presentation by a Nobel prize winner modeling the action of enzymes, and I walked up to him afterward, and I said to him, “I’m writing an article entitled: ‘Abiogenesis: Nightmare.’ Where do these enzymes come from? Since these things are synthesized, … starting from the beginning, where did these things come from?” He says, “What did you write in your article?” I said, “I said, ‘It’s a mystery.'” He said, “That’s exactly what it is: it’s a mystery.”

(f) Even a Dream Team of chemists wouldn’t know how to assemble life, if they had all the ingredients, including enzymes

As Professor Tour pointed out, what makes the puzzle of life’s origin all the more baffling is that even if you had a “Dream Team” of brilliant chemists and gave them all the ingredients they wanted, they would still have no idea how to assemble a simple cell:

All right, now let’s assemble the Dream Team. We’ve got good professors here, so let’s assemble the Dream Team. Let’s further assume that the world’s top 100 synthetic chemists, top 100 biochemists and top 100 evolutionary biologists combined forces into a limitlessly funded Dream Team. The Dream Team has all the carbohydrates, lipids, amino acids and nucleic acids stored in freezers in their laboratories… All of them are in 100% enantiomer purity. [Let’s] even give the team all the reagents they wish, the most advanced laboratories, and the analytical facilities, and complete scientific literature, and synthetic and natural non-living coupling agents. Mobilize the Dream Team to assemble the building blocks into a living system – nothing complex, just a single cell. The members scratch their heads and walk away, frustrated…

So let’s help the Dream Team out by providing the polymerized forms: polypeptides, all the enzymes they desire, the polysaccharides, DNA and RNA in any sequence they desire, cleanly assembled. The level of sophistication in even the simplest of possible living cells is so chemically complex that we are even more clueless now than with anything discussed regarding prebiotic chemistry or macroevolution. The Dream Team will not know where to start. Moving all this off Earth does not solve the problem, because our physical laws are universal.

You see the problem for the chemists? Welcome to my world. This is what I’m confronted with, every day.

(g) A call for scientific modesty

Professor Tour concluded his talk on a somber note:

Those that think scientists understand the details of life’s origin are wholly uninformed. Nobody understands. Maybe one day we will. But that day is far from today. So to make ad hominem attacks upon those who are skeptical of the science to-date can be inhibitory to the process if science. Would it not be helpful to express to students the massive gaps in our understanding so that they, as the next generation of academic soldiers, could seek to propel the field upon a firmer, and possibly radically different scientific basis, rather than relying on increasingly ambitious extrapolations that are entirely unacceptable in the practice of chemistry? The basis upon which we as scientists are relying is so shaky that it would be best to openly state the situation for what it is: a mystery.

Unmasking a recent example of scientific triumphalism on the origin of life

In the last few days, there has been much talk about a new paper in Nature Communications (vol. 7, article number 11328) by Brian Cafferty, David M. Fialho, Jaheda Khanam, Ramanarayanan Krishnamurthy and Nicholas V. Hud, titled, Spontaneous formation and base pairing of plausible prebiotic nucleotides in water. The abstract sounds very promising:

The RNA World hypothesis presupposes that abiotic reactions originally produced nucleotides, the monomers of RNA and universal constituents of metabolism. However, compatible prebiotic reactions for the synthesis of complementary (that is, base pairing) nucleotides and mechanisms for their mutual selection within a complex chemical environment have not been reported. Here we show that two plausible prebiotic heterocycles, melamine and barbituric acid, form glycosidic linkages with ribose and ribose-5-phosphate in water to produce nucleosides and nucleotides in good yields. Even without purification, these nucleotides base pair in aqueous solution to create linear supramolecular assemblies containing thousands of ordered nucleotides. Nucleotide anomerization and supramolecular assemblies favour the biologically relevant beta-anomer form of these ribonucleotides, revealing abiotic mechanisms by which nucleotide structure and configuration could have been originally favoured. These findings indicate that nucleotide formation and selection may have been robust processes on the prebiotic Earth, if other nucleobases preceded those of extant life.

However, when one looks more carefully at the paper itself, it becomes apparent that the authors are glossing over the challenges that their proposed synthesis would have faced in the real world:

The ability of C-BMP and MMP to form supramolecular assemblies might have also facilitated the emergence of early RNA-like polymers by selecting nucleotides with sugars (or earlier trifunctional linkers) that were structurally compatible with the assemblies and their subsequent coupling into covalent polymers. In the present study, we have, for practical reasons, used D-ribose and D-R5P for our nucleoside and nucleotide reactions with melamine and BA, but L-ribose or L-R5P would exhibit equivalent reactivity with these two heterocycles. Nevertheless, it has been often postulated that a racemic mixture of nucleotides would have inhibited the prebiotic synthesis of RNA polymers(41), and so the question of how the present system might address this challenge deserves some discussion. Although we have not shown chiral nucleotide selection, in the current study we have demonstrated that the beta-anomer of MMP is enriched in supramolecular assemblies over the alpha-anomer of MMP, and this selection leads to a detectable increase in the ratio of the beta-anomer over the alpha-anomer of MMP in the entire solution (presumably due to anomerization and selective stabilization by the assembly). As a recent example of the ability of supramolecular polymers to promote local chiral resolution, Aida and co-workers demonstrated that racemic solutions of chiral macrocycles self-sort into homochiral supramolecular polymers(42). It is therefore possible that supramolecular assemblies, formed by nucleotides with different sugars, including different anomers and enantiomers, could have been selectively enriched in individual supramolecular assemblies before polymerization. Current investigations of this possibility are actively being pursued in our laboratory.

The paper by Aida et al. which the authors cite is titled, “Homochiral supramolecular polymerization of bowl‐shaped chiral macrocycles in solution” (Chem. Sci. 2014, 5, 136‐140). However, it turns out that the abstract is very modest, and does not support the sweeping conclusions drawn by Cafferty et al. in their article for Nature Communications:

Chiral monomers 1 and 2, carrying C4‐ and C3‐symmetric bowl‐shaped peptide macrocycle  cores, respectively, undergo supramolecular polymerization in solution via van der Waals  and hydrogen bonding interactions. Size‐exclusion chromatographic studies, using UV and CD detectors, on the supramolecular copolymerization of their enantiomers demonstrated that these monomers are the first chiral macrocycles that polymerize enantioselectively with a strong preference for chiral self‐sorting.

In other words, Aida et al. were talking about just two monomers, which are the first – and to date, the only – chiral macrocycles that are known to polymerize with a strong preference for chiral self‐sorting. (Note: a macrocycle is defined by IUPAC as “a cyclic macromolecule or a macromolecular cyclic portion of a molecule.”) To generalize from this solitary instance to the grandiose claim that “supramolecular assemblies, formed by nucleotides with different sugars, including different anomers and enantiomers, could have been selectively enriched in individual supramolecular assemblies before polymerization,” is going far beyond the available evidence.

How Professor Tour’s talk has created a new scientific research agenda for the Intelligent Design movement

One of the criticisms most frequently hurled at the Intelligent Design movement is that it solves the problem of origins by positing a science-stopper: “God did it,” or “A Designer did it.” After listening to Professor Tour’s talk, I had a kind of epiphany. I suddenly realized that Tour had created a perfect research agenda for the Intelligent Design movement: that of reverse-engineering life itself. If life was intelligently designed, then there is no reason in principle why scientists cannot retrace the steps whereby the first living cell was assembled. Indeed, Professor Tour himself, in response to a question from a member of the audience, expressed optimism that scientists would one day solve the question of life’s origin.

But what if scientists’ attempt to reverse-engineer life turns up empty-handed?

What if the attempt to reverse-engineer life fails?

In his talk, Professor Tour highlighted the immense difficulty of intelligently designing a living cell, even if we assembled a “Dream Team” of chemists, and gave them all the ingredients they could possibly ask for. Let’s imagine that after 50 years of searching for a plausible pathway that a Designer might have used to get from the chemical ingredients of life to a functional living cell, Intelligent Design scientists come up empty-handed. “We’ve followed up every promising avenue we could think of,” they say. “We’ve even used super-computers, with their advanced ‘look-ahead’ capabilities, to help us in our search. Nothing has worked, and there appears to be nothing that’s even remotely promising on the horizon, either.” What should we then conclude?

Here, I believe, is where it gets really interesting. Failures in science can tell us just as much as successes. If the attempt to find a guided pathway leading to the first living cell turns up empty-handed after a diligent search of all promising options, then the only remaining conclusion for us to draw is that life wasn’t assembled. That, however, does not mean that life wasn’t designed. Rather, what it means is that the first living cell was created holus-bolus, in its entirety.

A Transcendent Designer?

What kind of agent could create a living cell, in its entirety, without any intermediate steps? Certainly not a natural agent, that’s for sure. That only leaves an Agent Who stands outside the cosmos and Who created the entities we find within it: in other words, a supernatural Being.

What I’m suggesting here is that the scientific attempt to reverse-engineer life is a winner as an Intelligent Design project, no matter which way it pans out. If it succeeds, then Intelligent Design scientists will gain some well-earned kudos, as well as “street cred,” in the scientific community at large: they will have accomplished a feat that puts Watson and Crick’s discovery of the structure of DNA in the shade.

But if it fails, then the Intelligent Design movement will have a ready response to a theological charge which is often leveled against the Intelligent Design movement: that the Designer it points to is not the God of classical theism, but a mere architect. The discovery that life was (in all likelihood) not assembled, step by step, but created in its entirety, would strongly indicate that the Designer of life is a Transcendent Being.

In other words, what we have is a win-win situation for the Intelligent Design movement. All that remains is to get moving with the scientific project of trying to reverse-engineer a simple living cell, as soon as possible.

What do readers think?

Comments
Zachriel: I hoped I could spare the time to answer those two "arguments" of yours, given their obvious weakness. However, here are my answers: 1) Let's start with the clock example, which is clearly the simplest. You should really have avoided insisting, but you did insist. Strange. Your statement: “Planets move like a complex clocklike mechanism. The only complex clocklike mechanism whose origin is independently known are human designs. Hence, planetary movement is designed.” This is really silly, from one like you who should be familiar with ID theory, at least judging from the many long discussions we had in the last few years. The movement of planets is not an example of obvious and detectable complex functional information. It can be explained by known physical laws, and the configuration of the solar system can (probably) be explained in terms of the same laws, given certain assumptions about physics and astrophysics. I really don't understand why you say that planets move "like a complex clocklike mechanism". What do you mean? If you mean that we can measure time observing the sun, you are certainly right. But we can measure time using any natural event which is cyclical and /or has a definite and reliable duration. Atomic events can be used as clocks. So, it is obviously wrong to state that any kind of object which can be used as a clock is functionally complex. Any natural object which is approximately one meter long, fro example, can be used to measure lengths in meters, but that does not mean that such an object is designed, least of all that it exhibits functional complexity. As you should know, simple functions are not enough to infer design. Measuring time or length by some object or event is not a complex function. What about men made clocks? Indeed, they usually are functionally complex, but not simply because we can measure time with them. Let's consider a traditional clock, or even a digital clock. Those objects have a complex configuration, which can never be explained in terms of some known law. IOWs, a clock has a physical configuration which is a likely as any other from a huge number of possible physical configurations, and that configuration makes it possible to use it to objectively measure time with great precision and in terms of natural events (like the duration of a day), and to read the measure on a display in symbolic numerical form. That is much more than simply looking at the sun to know what time it is. How is that achieved? By a special configuration of analogical parts (the gears, and so on), which use energy to generate specific movements, and a reading system driven by those parts. Or, in the case of digital watches, by a special configuration of circuits. Well, that is certainly functional complexity. As you should know, the functional complexity of an object measure the complexity of the information linked to the specific configuration which is necessary top achieve some defined functional achievement, which corresponds to the probability of that kind of configuration among all those available to the object. Therefore, there is no "parallel situation which shows the fallacy of my position". Simply a completely wrong and superficial attempt on your part, which you could well have avoided. I will comment about the paper in next post (do you remember? distributed posts).gpuccio
May 5, 2016
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MatSpirit, You seem to be suggesting that life reduces to chemistry. Is that right? If so, here are two largish quotes for you.
The concept of Biosemiotics requires making a distinction between two categories, the material or physical world and the symbolic or semantic world. The problem is that there is no obvious way to connect the two categories. This is a classical philosophical problem on which there is no consensus even today. Biosemiotics recognizes that the philosophical matter-mind problem extends downward to the pattern recognition and control processes of the simplest living organisms where it can more easily be addressed as a scientific problem. In fact, how material structures serve as signals, instructions, and controls is inseparable from the problem of the origin and evolution of life. Biosemiotics was established as a necessary complement to the physical-chemical reductionist approach to life that cannot make this crucial categorical distinction necessary for describing semantic information. Matter as described by physics and chemistry has no intrinsic function or semantics. By contrast, biosemiotics recognizes that life begins with function and semantics. Biosemiotics recognizes this matter-symbol problem at all levels of life from natural languages down to the DNA. ... The problem also poses an apparent paradox: All signs, symbols, and codes, all languages including formal mathematics are embodied as material physical structures and therefore must obey all the inexorable laws of physics. At the same time, the symbol vehicles like the bases in DNA, voltages representing bits in a computer, the text on this page, and the neuron firings in the brain do not appear to be limited by, or clearly related to, the very laws they must obey. Even the mathematical symbols that express these inexorable physical laws seem to be entirely free of these same laws. The legacy of classical reductionism is the support of a common illusion. It is the illusion that because everything must obey detailed microscopic physical laws, it follows that such a description of this detail forms the most fundamental or most “real” explanation for all higher-level behaviors. For at least a century physicists have recognized, sometimes only tacitly, that this is not the case. The first failure of reductionism was thermodynamics with its irreversible laws that can never be formally derived from or reduced to the reversible microscopic laws. The conceptual problem is that in the microscopic laws the observables are about individual particles,while the observables in statistical laws are about populations. These descriptions illustrate the concept of complementarity used in the special sense that neither of two descriptions can be derived from, nor reduced to the other. Max Planck (1960) made the point: “For it is clear to everybody that there must be an unfathomable gulf between a probability, however small, and an absolute impossibility . . . Thus dynamics and statistics cannot be regarded as interrelated.” ... The laws of physics are assumed to be inexorable. That is, the laws do not allow alternatives and therefore the concept of information that is defined by the number of alternatives does not apply to the laws themselves. A measurement, in contrast, is an act of acquiring information about the state of a specific system that has many alternative states. ... Biosemiotics also recognizes that to objectify the concept of the epistemic cut between matter and symbol we must make explicit what we mean by the acts of observation and interpretation at the most primitive level. This requirement for an irreducible triad of sign, interpreter, and referent was a central point of C. S. Peirce’s semiotics. Howard Patee. "The physics and metaphysics of biosemiotics". Emphasis mine.
Life cannot exist without programming, and the processing of that programming. Neither the programming, nor the processing of that programming, can exist without purposeful choices at bona fide decision nodes. "Bifurcation points" (mere forks in the road) don't hack it! Programming of any kind requires true decision nodes. Coin flips won't do! Two kinds of determinism exist, not one: Physicodynamic Determinism and Choice Determinism. Choice Determinism always arises from the far side, the formal side, of The Cybernetic Cut. The only way formal choice contingency can enter the physical world across the great ravine of The Cybernetic Cut is via the one-way CS (Configurable Switch) Bridge. Configurable switches are physical devices. But they are designed and engineered to record formal purposeful choices into the physical world. Only Choice Determinism can set configurable switches, not the laws of physics and chemistry; Chance cannot set them, either, not if one expects sophisticated function or successful computation. Chance is not a cause of anything. Chance is nothing more than a probabilistic description of stochastic events. Chance doesn't prescribe anything. The choice of symbols from an alphabet of symbols to create a linear digital symbol system is another way to cross the CS Bridge from the formal to the physical world, at least when physical symbol vehicles (tokens) are used (e.g., the Scrabble game). DNA is a material symbol system (MSS), where nucleotides are tokens. The sequencing of those tokens is not physicodynamically determined. The sequencing is determined by formal rules, not laws, as is the translation of that symbol system into a different material symbol system of tRNA tokens. The philosophic naturalist makes the mistake of thinking that because the tokens are physical, the material symbol system is physical. Representation of any kind is always formal, not physical. Symbol systems, language, code, and translation are every bit as formal as mathematics! The metaphysical naturalist has no explanation for any formalism, including the mathematical laws of physics themselves. Biosemiosis is impossible without choice contingency. Nature is not sufficient to explain nature. David Abel. "The First Gene", "Primordial Prescription: The most plaguing problem in life origin science". Emphasis mine.
EugeneS
May 5, 2016
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Zachriel "Our reasons for rejecting a scientific claim of “intelligence as a cause” of life are scientific, not metaphysical." You have neither scientific nor metaphysical reasons. Your case is void (unless you are tacitly playing in favour of ID by constantly providing void arguments against it).EugeneS
May 5, 2016
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While raising the mutation rate can simulate some aspects of time, it doesn’t represent a complete history. That’s because it takes time for population genetics to sort through the variants. Be happy to see your results, though.
Thoughtless gibberish. You can't hide behind time when you have massive numbers of generations "to sort through the variants" in a relative short amount of time. That's the whole point of using bacteria. Duh.Querius
May 5, 2016
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Hello Mat, Just a quick question. Do you think whatever simple life form that is proposed as the precursor to the modern cell -- as just a matter of general logic -- had to be able to organize the modern cell? I'm sure you would agree that if the modern cell is the outgrowth of a precursor, then that precursor had to in some way be capable of organizing the modern cell (or it wouldn't exist). Here is my question: In leading to organization of the modern cell, did that precursor require the capacity to somehow specify any of the constituent parts of the modern cell?Upright BiPed
May 4, 2016
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Now that I've said a few words about Professor Tour's lecture, does anybody still think it would be an excellent resource for teachers? Would anybody like to speculate on the outcome of a parent's lawsuit?MatSpirit
May 4, 2016
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A few words on reverse engineering: Reverse engineering means to figure out how something works by examining and experimenting with the object. You can use any knowledge you may have about physics, electronics, chemistry and so on. You can disassemble the object and operate it if you want. You can use any knowledge you may have about similar objects, but you can't use any plans, schematics, repair manuals or other designer generated knowledge to figure out how it works. Is everybody ok on this definition? I could probably phrase it better, but does everybody understand what it means to reverse engineer something? Ok, now imagine a scientist peering into a microscope looking at a cell. What do you thing he's doing? Looking at pretty pictures? Admiring the shape or colors of the cell? Gathering possible designs for wall paper? Of course not! He's trying to figure out how the cell is constructed and how it works by examining and experimenting with it. He doesn't have any plans or repair manuals to consult or written explanations from the cell's designer or manufacturer. He's reverse engineering the cell! Reverse engineering is how science works! Science means figuring out how the universe works by examining and experimenting with it. Physics, biology, geology, astronomy - ALL science is reverse engineering. The idea that ID is going to add to science by introducing it to the art of reverse engineering is silly, insulting to science and mainly shows how little ID understands what it criticizes.MatSpirit
May 4, 2016
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Hi vjtorley, Thanks for your response. You write, "Let me remind readers that when Professor Tour gave his speech, he specifically asked if there was a chemist in the audience, and he asked that chemist to call him out if he told any lies. He never got called out." Yes, that was at 13:42 where he asks, "How many people in here are synthetic organic chemists?" Somebody raises their hand and Tour says, "If I tell a lie, just say, 'Liar, liar, pants on fire!'" The problem is that Tour's thesis is that the first living thing was a highly complex cell like the modern cell he uses as an illustration. He then goes on to list the many extremely difficult / unknown steps required to synthesis that modern, complex cell. As far as I (and the unseen chemist) knows, he's right. It would be extremely difficult to build a complex modern type cell from scratch. THE PROBLEM IS THAT NOBODY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT CREATIONISTS AND ID ENTHUSIASTS BELIEVES THAT THE FIRST LIVING THING WAS COMPLEX! Everybody I've ever heard of that is actually associated with OOL research thinks the first living thing was an extremely simple entity of a few hundred atoms or less, probably enveloped in a simple lipid membrane, and that its only life-like ability was to reproduce itself from available materials. Tour's whole speech is based on the strawman belief that the first living thing was enormously complex. It wasnt, so all his arguments about how hard that would be are in vain. Tour says he's personally discussed the origin of life with various experts. Given his delusions, who knows what he actually talked about and I'm not surprised that they expressed befuddlement. One thing I'm sure of, he didn't discus it with anybody in the OOL field or they would have knocked down his straw man and set him straight on a few of the basics of OOL research. You said, "Nowhere in his talk did Professor Tour claim that the first living cell “poofed into existence.” Indeed, he specifically alluded to the RNA world hypothesis." Tour's basic thesis is that A: The first living thing was astoundingly complex, complete with DNA, RNA and all the other accoutrements of a modern cell and B: There is no possible way such a highly complex cell could form naturally. He then leaves it to the reader to deduce that it must have been produced by an intelligent designer, which non IDers normally refer to as poofing. His reference to the RNA world was to shoot it down as something that could build his dream cell. In other matters, I didn't say anything about first life being non cellular and the smallest enzyme I've ever heard of is made from about 60 amino acids, which would make it substantially bigger than the first organism, so no, I don't think any enzymes were used to make the first living thing. I know this is not the first time you've been embarrassed by this kind of claim about OOL. You were going on about some other scientist who didn't know jack about the OOL field a few months ago. I think he claimed the first living thing was so complex it would somehow require a multiverse to poof it into existence. I don't think there's much doubt that it will happen again if you don't learn something about the OOL field. So why don't you do everybody, especially yourself, a favor and watch Tour's speech again. See for your self that he's claiming that the first living thing was an ultra complex cell with DNA and RNA. Then get Google working for you and read up on the origin of life FROM OOL SOURCES. Not just scientists, but scientists who are actually working in that field. Don't read creationist / ID sources because they are uniformly full of crap. Read them afterwards if you want. Then tell us what you've found. I know you've turned around on junk DNA and global warming. OOL is no harder. Good luck.MatSpirit
May 4, 2016
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gpuccio: And you give me a paper about some homologues? The paper claims that gene duplication was a major factor that led to the complex structure of vertebrate blood clotting. What about the paper did you find in error? gpuccio: If that kind of argument shows the fallacy of my position If you want to dispute that it does, you need to address the purported parallel.Zachriel
May 4, 2016
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Zachriel: You must be kidding. I asked: "Examples, please? With molecular pathways, if possible. Thank you." And you give me a paper about some homologues? You must be kidding. "It’s a parallel situation which shows the fallacy of your position." If that kind of argument shows the fallacy of my position, I am really very proud.gpuccio
May 4, 2016
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gpuccio: Molecular evolutionary pathways to new complex functional proteins? The claim was about evolutionary pathways generally, and there are complex morphological structures that have left fossils so we can see how they evolved. With molecular biology, we have to infer the history, and most of the metabolic structures evolved very early in the history of life, so the evidence is necessarily tentative. However, we have evidence of the evolution of complex molecular systems, such as the vertebrate blood clotting system which occurred due to a series of gene duplications. See Jiang & Doolittle, The evolution of vertebrate blood coagulation as viewed from a comparison of puffer fish and sea squirt genomes, PNAS 2003. gpuccio: When even you have nothing better to do than recurring to meaningless word plays, that must certainly mean something. It's a parallel situation which shows the fallacy of your position.Zachriel
May 4, 2016
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Querius: – A thought experiment: If you eliminated all dogs except great danes and chihuahuas, would they be different species, They may become different species due to the lack of gene exchange. They haven't been separated for long enough, and can presumably still exchange genes through intermediate breeds. Querius: and wouldn’t their genomes be as confusing as the great apes? Confusing in what way? The dog genome is complex, if that is what you mean, but clearly part of the tree of life. Querius: – A real experiment: Repeat the E.coli citrate experiment with raised levels of mutagens, including radiation levels to simulate the passage of long periods of time and many generations. While raising the mutation rate can simulate some aspects of time, it doesn't represent a complete history. That's because it takes time for population genetics to sort through the variants. Be happy to see your results, though.Zachriel
May 4, 2016
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Daniel King: "The devil is in those pesky details, as any designer knows." Details are searched under general paradigms. Those paradigms are very important. If your paradigm is wrong, you will never understand details correctly. I maintain that "design is the only known process capable of generating huge amount of complex functional information. It’s as simple as that." Because it is absolutely true. You say: "On the contrary,”design” is not known to be a process that generated life at the outset. That has to be demonstrated." My point is not about life, but about the huge amount of complex functional information which is necessary for life to exist. And only design can generate that. You say: "Finding out how the natural world works is not at all simple, viz. “complex functional information.” Is that an argument? I am probably not intelligent enough to understand it. You say: "How does one get from “design” to hypotheses that guide research into uncovering those devilish details?" By scientific reasoning. Correct scientific reasoning. Design means that new functional information has been outputted to biological matter throughout natural history. It is perfectly natural then to try to understand when, by what modalities, with what purposes, by whom, and so on. Those are all legitimate scientific questions, and only facts and scientific reasoning can give the answers. But if you go on looking for evolutionary pathways which don't exist to explain functional information which was designed, you are hopeless. "You haven’t worked out anything. You’ve made a decision that has no apparent consequences. You need to show that making that decision at this time actually has consequences for advancing knowledge.." Strange argument. What can I say? I believe that making the right decision about the right paradigm which can explain what we observe has certainly important, and good, consequences. Maybe you think differently. The only guiding criterion I can accept in science and, more generally, in cognition, is adherence to truth. Consequences will come accordingly.gpuccio
May 4, 2016
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Zachriel: My post #75 was intentionally provocative. I must say that the reactions are rather lame. :) "Of course, many evolutionary pathways have already been found." Molecular evolutionary pathways to new complex functional proteins? Really? "ID is in all probability false;" Thank for "in all probability"! That's certainly more than I usually get from your field. :) "ID is fraught with fallacious reasoning." Is that an example of non fallacious reasoning? "Leaving aside the problem of quantifying complex functional information," Why leave it aside? Because, believe me, there is really no problem at all. "evolution can also create complex functions" Examples, please? With molecular pathways, if possible. Thank you. "Planets move like a complex clocklike mechanism. The only complex clocklike mechanism whose origin is independently known are human designs. Hence, planetary movement is designed." Not your best performance, Zachriel. When even you have nothing better to do than recurring to meaningless word plays, that must certainly mean something.gpuccio
May 4, 2016
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You might want to start with common descent and the phylogenetic tree.
A reasonable effort with some significant issues. - A thought experiment: If you eliminated all dogs except great danes and chihuahuas, would they be different species, and wouldn't their genomes be as confusing as the great apes? - A real experiment: Repeat the E.coli citrate experiment with raised levels of mutagens, including radiation levels to simulate the passage of long periods of time and many generations. The LD 50/30 of bacteria is very high, so we would be able to observe just how much evolution takes place if the bacteria were humans instead. -QQuerius
May 4, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, Thank you for your post. You write:
Tour isn’t asking how anything evolved. He’s claiming that a modern cell, complete with RNA, DNA and all the other internal organelles found in a modern cell, was the FIRST living thing and demanding to know how such an extraordinarily complex cell could could poof into existence through natural, non-intelligent means. Evolution proponents say that claim is ridiculous, people who actually work in the OOL field believe the first living thing was small and simple enough to form via stochastic processes and its only ability was to self-reproduce. All the gew-gaws in modern cells got there through the slow step by step process of evolution.
Let me remind readers that when Professor Tour gave his speech, he specifically asked if there was a chemist in the audience, and he asked that chemist to call him out if he told any lies. He never got called out. Professor Tour also disclosed that he had personally discussed the origin of life with Nobel Laureates and members of the National Academy of Science:
I’ve asked all of my colleagues: National Academy members, Nobel Prize winners. I sit with them in offices. Nobody understands this. So if your professor says, “It’s all worked out,” [or] your teachers say, “It’s all worked out,” they don’t know what they’re talking about. It is not worked out.
Nowhere in his talk did Professor Tour claim that the first living cell "poofed into existence." Indeed, he specifically alluded to the RNA world hypothesis. You claim that the first living thing was non-cellular. That's a legitimate hypothesis, but it's unsupported by a shred of evidence. It also runs afoul of the fact that although there are many simple bacteria living on earth today (despite the fact that more complex eukaryotes also exist), there is no niche anywhere on the planet where non-cellular life-forms can be found. Why is that? You contend that the first living thing was "small and simple enough to form via stochastic processes and its only ability was to self-reproduce." Question: did this proto-organism contain enzymes? If so, then you have to account for the origin of these proteins. If not, then you confront the difficulty I alluded to in part (e) of my OP above: even if you could get all the ingredients of life together, at a high level of purity, and store them over long periods, they can’t assemble without enzymes.vjtorley
May 4, 2016
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Querius: Newton and Kepler didn’t claim that orbital mechanics evolved to account for planetary motions. That's right. They didn't propose a scientific theory of the origin of the Solar System. Querius: They found mathematical relationships that were verifiably predictive of future motion (which was reasonably close for that time) and these were later able to be questioned and then falsified. Newton proposed a theory of gravity, yet didn't know the cause of gravity, contrary to bill cole's statement. Querius: In contrast, Darwinism has been able to predict nothing that hasn’t already happened, and there’s nothing that can be questioned That's not correct. Evolution predicts many facets of biology, such as the evolution of influenza, important in the fight against disease. Querius: ... or observed that could ever possibly falsify Darwinism. If you mean evolution hasn't been falsified, then you are correct. It is, however, falsifiable. Querius: The reality is as if Einstein were never permitted to question Newton. Question away! Querius: You observe a mutation that breaks a function without killing the organism and then extrapolate that to evolving all life on earth, all genetic and epigenetic codes, new organs with new functions, structures, and chemical cycles regardless of complexity by slathering everything over with a thick layer of time and chance. You might want to start with common descent and the phylogenetic tree.Zachriel
May 4, 2016
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Daniel King,
Gpuccio: Design is an explanation for the huge amount of functional information implied in OOL, because design is the only known process capable of generating huge amount of complex functional information. It’s as simple as that.
Daniel King: “Only known process.” On the contrary,”design” is not known to be a process that generated life at the outset. That has to be demonstrated.
You twist Gpuccio's words. This is what he said: "design is the only known process capable of generating huge amount of complex functional information". He argues that, contrary to chance and necessity, intelligent design is an adequate cause. A cause capable of generating the kind of information necessary to produce life — e.g. semiotic codes. And therefore:
Gpuccio: The real problem is simply: what is the best scientific explanation [for life] according to what we know today? And the best explanation is design.
Origenes
May 4, 2016
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Hi everyone, Good news: Baby Zachary from Ulanbator and his mother are now on their way to America: https://www.gofundme.com/operationzachary Thanks to everyone for their support.vjtorley
May 4, 2016
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Newton and Kepler didn't claim that orbital mechanics evolved to account for planetary motions. They found mathematical relationships that were verifiably predictive of future motion (which was reasonably close for that time) and these were later able to be questioned and then falsified. In contrast, Darwinism has been able to predict nothing that hasn't already happened, and there's nothing that can be questioned or observed that could ever possibly falsify Darwinism. With Darwinism, we must accept miracles that are given names such as Cambrian Explosion, Living Fossils, Polystrate Fossils, Convergent Evolution, RNA World, Billions and Billions, Spontaneous Generation of DNA, Spontaneous Generation of Cell Walls, Spontaneous Generation of Chemical Cycles, Spontaneous Generation of Life, Deep Time and Warm Ponds, Index Fossils, Inverted Strata, Massively Improbable Combinations of Mutations, The Fossil Record, Fossil Beds, Out of Place Fossils, The Tree of Life, 65 Million Year Blood Cells, The Strong Anthropic Principle, Uniformitarianism, The Multiverse, and on and on. The reality is as if Einstein were never permitted to question Newton. You observe a mutation that breaks a function without killing the organism and then extrapolate that to evolving all life on earth, all genetic and epigenetic codes, new organs with new functions, structures, and chemical cycles regardless of complexity by slathering everything over with a thick layer of time and chance. Oh and Darwinism is the only scientific game in town. Wouldn't it be great if we could pry Darwin's cold, dead hands off the throat of science? -QQuerius
May 3, 2016
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bill cole: Yes it can be observed but what is the cause. Without a cause you don’t have a theory. What is the cause of gravity in Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation? What is the cause of variation in Darwin's original Theory of Evolution? bill cole: We can observe the result ... And we can show that many mutations are random with respect to fitness. bill cole: but have not observed the change process. Actually, mutations are a well-researched topic. Here's an overview of a few known causes of mutation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation#CausesZachriel
May 3, 2016
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gpuccio @ 33:
It’s very simple. Allen MacNeill’s statement was: “As for abiogenesis, I agree that it is not “all worked out” – indeed, I think it will never be so in either direction (i.e. design vs evolution).” So, the problem referenced here is the kind of process driving OOL, not the details of its natural history.
The devil is in those pesky details, as any designer knows.
Design is an explanation for the huge amount of functional information implied in OOL, because design is the only known process capable of generating huge amount of complex functional information. It’s as simple as that.
"Only known process." On the contrary,"design" is not known to be a process that generated life at the outset. That has to be demonstrated. Finding out how the natural world works is not at all simple, viz. "complex functional information."
You ask “who, what, when and how details”. But I never said that the details are worked out. They obviously are not, neither for an explanation based on unguided evolution nor for an explanation based on design. But U an sure that, once the correct process is accepted and recognized in scientific approach, details will be found.
How does one get from "design" to hypotheses that guide research into uncovering those devilish details?
So again, for clarity, what IMO is “all worked out” is the problem of deciding between design and unguided evolution as a credible scientific explanation for OOL.
You haven't worked out anything. You've made a decision that has no apparent consequences. You need to show that making that decision at this time actually has consequences for advancing knowledge..Daniel King
May 3, 2016
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Zachriel: Biological diversity is observed to be due to mutations of various sorts, along with recombination. bill cole: IMHO this is not a coherent statement. Hmm. It seems coherent. We directly observe mutations, hence we directly observe the creation of biological diversity. We directly observe recombination, hence we directly observe the creation of biological diversity.Zachriel
May 3, 2016
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gpuccio: “We can always find some evolutionary pathway in the future” Of course, many evolutionary pathways have already been found. gpuccio: they are not scientific theories at all, and that’s why they cannot be falsified. For the same reason, they have no scientific value. They may have scientific value if they lead to testable hypotheses. Even ID could have scientific value, but it's very unlikely for several reasons: ID is in all probability false; those inspired by ID rarely do any scientific research of note; and ID is fraught with fallacious reasoning. gpuccio: The main core of ID theory is that design is often detectable, when it is complex enough, and that for any object exhibiting true complex functional information a design origin can be safely inferred, with practically no risk of being wrong. Leaving aside the problem of quantifying complex functional information, evolution can also create complex functions, so your "safe inference" is anything but. gpuccio: That statement is very strong, and can easily be falsified exhibiting any object which shows true complex functional information, and for which a non design origin can be safely and independently proven. That's just another negative proof as discussed above. Planets move like a complex clocklike mechanism. The only complex clocklike mechanism whose origin is independently known are human designs. Hence, planetary movement is designed.Zachriel
May 3, 2016
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Zachriel
Biological diversity is observed to be due to mutations of various sorts, along with recombination.
IMHO this is not a coherent statement.bill cole
May 3, 2016
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Zachriel, BA, VJ: Just a brief clarification about what I think of stopping rules and falsifications: I maintain that there are no generic stopping rules in science, as I have said in my post #36: "No scientific theory, however good and supported by known facts, will ever be final. That is an important epistemological point." What I mean is that we can never have a rule that tells us to stop because a final theory about something has been verified and therefore should be considered as true. That is impossible, for the nature itself of science. BA, however, makes a good point: any scientific theory can be falsified, and if it is falsified, then we have a stopping rule that tells us not to investigate further that specific theory. That is true, but it is a completely different concept: we discard that specific theory, but there is no stopping rule to looking for some other one, even if of the same kind. IOWs, the falsification of a specific theory can be achieved only if the theory is explicit and specific, and it is always possible to propose some other theory which is not really falsified by our falsification process. So, we can either try some completely different theory, or just adjust our theory so that it is not falsified by the previous falsification process. In doing that, we may be right or still wrong, but the process is correct from a scientific point of view. The point remains that the best scientific explanation should be tentatively chosen among the available scientific explanations which have not been falsified, and it should be the one which is best supported by facts and explains best what is observed. Now, generic statements, like Zachriel's: "We can always find some evolutionary pathway in the future" or, even more generically: "We could always find some naturalistic (in the sense of non design) explanation for biological complexity" are not explicit and specific scientific theories. Indeed, they are not scientific theories at all, and that's why they cannot be falsified. For the same reason, they have no scientific value. ID theory is completely falsifiable, as I have said many times here. The main core of ID theory is that design is often detectable, when it is complex enough, and that for any object exhibiting true complex functional information a design origin can be safely inferred, with practically no risk of being wrong. That statement is very strong, and can easily be falsified exhibiting any object which shows true complex functional information, and for which a non design origin can be safely and independently proven. So, the core of ID theory is completely scientific, is completely falsifiable, and has never been falsified. That's why ID theory offers the best explanation for all objects exhibiting complex functional information, including biological objects. Is neo darwinism falsifiable? My position is very simple. The generic faith in neo darwinism is not falsifiable, because it is not science. As said, Zachriel, or any other neo darwinist, can always hope that new facts will make of his/their theory the best explanation for biological data. That is a question of personal hope, faith, and conviction. But not science. Instead, any specific explanation of observed biological data in terms of the neo darwinist theory can be falsified. Therefore, specific explanations basaed on RV + NS can be considered as scientific, and can be falsified. Indeed, they often are (see for example the argument made many times here against Ohno's explanation of nylonase; Ohno's theory was specific and scientifically detailed, and that's why it was possible to falsify it). As you can see, there is a difference between ID theory and neo darwinism. ID theory is about the scientific validity of a design inference based on functional complexity. It is falsifiable, it has never been falsified, and it does not imply the specifics of the inferred design origin (the famous who, what, how, and so on). As I have said many times, those specifics are scientific problems, must be addressed scientifically, but are not part of the original design inference, as many of our interlocutors from the other side badly want to be true. The conscious origin of all objects exhibiting complex functional information is an empirical observation which can be repeatedly tested: it can be falsified, and it has never been falsified. Therefore, design remains the best scientific explanation for that kind of objects, unless and until a better explanation is provided, or the design explanation is independently falsified in specific cases. Neo darwinism remains the worst explanation for biological objects exhibiting complex functional information for the simple reason that it has never explained any of them. If and when it can do that, we can seriously consider it. Until then, there is no stopping rule, and all those who believe, for personal faith or simply for personal intuition, that some day neo darwinism will give the desired results, are welcome to dedicate their time, efforts and patience to research under that paradigm. Until then, it is perfectly worked out that design is for now the best explanation. And we should certainly dedicate a lot of time, efforts and patience to the investigation of specifics under that paradigm.gpuccio
May 3, 2016
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john_a_designer @39: "The problem at the moment is not the ID argument, as far as it goes, but the ideological blindness and political bullying of the materialists. The best argument we can make for the time being is what Tour is doing. Essentially he is asking “HOW did this evolve naturalistically?” If the Darwinian “theory” is indeed a truly scientific explanation shouldn’t its proponents be able to answer that question?" Tour isn't asking how anything evolved. He's claiming that a modern cell, complete with RNA, DNA and all the other internal organelles found in a modern cell, was the FIRST living thing and demanding to know how such an extraordinarily complex cell could could poof into existence through natural, non-intelligent means. Evolution proponents say that claim is ridiculous, people who actually work in the OOL field believe the first living thing was small and simple enough to form via stochastic processes and its only ability was to self-reproduce. All the gew-gaws in modern cells got there through the slow step by step process of evolution. They also wonder why an accomplished scientist like Dr. Tour doesn't know this and, more importantly, how anybody with an ounce of responsibility could set out to "teach" OOL to others without getting such basic facts straight. I'll betcha a bright shiney nickel that his religious beliefs were responsible. I also wonder why he didn't "defeat science" by "proving" that mice are too complex to be produced by dirty rags, therefore Jesus. Perhaps that was too much even for him. Here's a challenge for Professor Tour: Give your speech to an audience of actual OOL researchers. When they stop laughing, they will set you straight.MatSpirit
May 3, 2016
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VJT @ 68:
Daniel King asks: “In what way is ‘design’ an explanation?” and Zachriel asserts: “‘Design’ lacks the specificity and entailments to call it a scientific explanation.” Surely you jest. If you found a monolith on the Moon, the lengths of whose sides had the ratio of 1:4:9, you would consider the hypothesis that the monolith was designed to explain absolutely nothing about its shape?
No jest. Wouldn't "design" be one of several possible hypotheses? Without further investigation wouldn't it be premature to decide?
In any case, even if you don’t think that mere design qualifies as an explanation, you cannot deny that “design,” coupled with a list of the steps whereby the designer generated the product, counts as a legitimate scientific explanation.
No denial. Wouldn't the designer's steps have to involve the kinds of chemical processes that have been and are currently being explored? If not, what new approaches does the design hypothesis suggest?
The research project which I have proposed for the Intelligent Design movement over the next 50 years in my OP is to find one possible sequence of steps leading to a simple living cell.
Isn't that what Szostak and others have been doing? (See http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/) What improvement does your research project offer?
If that’s not science, then I’m a Dutchman.
It would be science.Daniel King
May 3, 2016
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bill cole: Yes it can be observed but what is the cause. Without a cause you don’t have a theory. We can observe the result but have not observed the change process. Biological diversity is observed to be due to mutations of various sorts, along with recombination. vjtorley: If you found a monolith on the Moon, the lengths of whose sides had the ratio of 1:4:9, you would consider the hypothesis that the monolith was designed to explain absolutely nothing about its shape? Humans often imagine things that are designed, and imagine things that are supposedly natural which are not. So? Crystals exhibit symmetry. vjtorley: In any case, even if you don’t think that mere design qualifies as an explanation, you cannot deny that “design,” coupled with a list of the steps whereby the designer generated the product, counts as a legitimate scientific explanation. The research project which I have proposed for the Intelligent Design movement over the next 50 years in my OP is to find one possible sequence of steps leading to a simple living cell. Let us know how it goes. If it just means that you find two more gaps every time a gap is filled, then it won't mean much. But if you had actual evidence of manufacture, then that would be significant.Zachriel
May 3, 2016
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vjtorley: Hence falsification of the statement that there was some pathway from the chemical ingredients of life to a functional living cell is physically impossible. We don’t have enough time for that. General statements of that sort are not scientifically falsifiable. Only specific hypotheses are falsifiable. Consider a statement made by an ancient that the planets move by natural laws; and the equivalent statement that the motions are due to supernatural (telic) causes. If we found direct evidence of angels, that would falsify the former. Absent that, though, a natural explanation may just be beyond the human imaginings of the pre-Newtonian era. That's the whole point of the scientific method. It allows us to peer into the darkness and discover bits of knowledge, even while most of the universe remains shrouded in mystery. You propose an exhaustive search, but the search is limited by human ingenuity and technical ability. While modern humans look on universal gravitation as obvious; for millennia, it was beyond human understanding. While a search for your keys on the dresser top may be considered exhaustive (even then they are sometimes overlooked!), you can't possibly exhaust the universe of possibilities beyond your imagination.Zachriel
May 3, 2016
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