Otangelo Grasso’s new book, Confirming Yeshua

_{Denyse O'Leary

March 19, 2023

Books of interest, Intelligent Design, Religion}

Share: Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

Confirming Yeshua, Volume 1: The historical evidence that substantiates Jesus historicity and Biblical identity by [Otangelo Grasso]

In two volumes.

Blurb: “Confirming Yeshua” Volume 1 is an invaluable resource for readers seeking a deeper understanding of the evidence supporting the reality of Jesus Christ. Volume 1 explores one by one the fulfillment of over 300 prophecies about the Messiah in the life of Jesus, examines the historical reliability of the gospels, and provides evidence for the events surrounding the resurrection of Christ. With careful analysis of archaeological findings and textual evidence, the book demonstrates strong evidence supporting the historicity of Jesus and the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. In a world where misinformation and wrong claims are widely disseminated, “Confirming Yeshua” provides a comprehensive and evidence-based response to objections raised against the historicity of Jesus and his resurrection.
Also discussed here.

Confirming Yeshua Volume 1, Kindle version

As a paperback (493 pages).

Confirming Yeshua Volume 2, Kindle version

As paperback (414 pages)

Comments

RAM @34,
. . . let alone with regards to Jesus as the “anointed.”
Yes, but I'd first like to get some kind of a commitment from you, because your dismissive "very old hat to me" is frankly disappointing and can easily be applied to anything anyone says. However to your credit, you wrote in @28, "You got me there" on one point. This is unusually honest compared to some others here. As a matter of fact, I've PERSONALLY studied photographs of relevant epigraphic evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls and had a conversation with a scholar who actually participated in their translation from the actual, physical fragments. They very old perhaps, but NOT "very old hat." The fact is that Rabbi Singer made assertions in the video you asked me to watch that I KNOW are false and can be demonstrated to be false with physical evidence! Again, you really owe it to yourself to challenge the assertions that Rabbi Singer makes. Again, thank you for your responses and I hope you appreciate why I feel that my own research deserves more than being brushed aside as "very old hat." Please go ahead and watch Dr. Brown's presentation and there's no reason why you can't personally verify whether his evidence is true or not! Kind regards, QueriusQuerius_{March 29, 2023
March
03
Mar
29
29
2023
05:32 PM
5
05
32
PM
PDT}

Querius, Very old hat to me. The fact is, I wish Mike was right. But he's not. And neither are you if you think anyone in the NT mentions Daniel 9:26 at all, let alone with regards to Jesus as the "anointed." Cite the verse. Cheers! RAMRAM_{March 29, 2023
March
03
Mar
29
29
2023
03:57 PM
3
03
57
PM
PDT}

RAM @32, Wanna bet? How much would it matter to you if I actually could do so? Please do watch the other side of Rabbi Tovia Singer's assertions in my posted link @31 by Dr. Brown, a Messianic Jew. Kind regards, QueriusQuerius_{March 29, 2023
March
03
Mar
29
29
2023
02:24 PM
2
02
24
PM
PDT}

Querius @29, Still, a lot of words. But no explanation as to why the NT authors are chillingly silent about Daniel 9:26 with regards to Jesus as the "anointed." Cheers! RAMRAM_{March 29, 2023
March
03
Mar
29
29
2023
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT}

Ram @30, Thank you. And yes, I'm familiar with Rabbi Tovia Singer, read one of his books on the subject, and listened to a debate between him and Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jew. So, here's Dr. Brown's reply: Dr. Brown Refutes Rabbi Singer on Daniel 9 & Psalm 22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpzU6KwpBt4 I think you owe it to yourself to see how these eminent Torah scholars debate each other. Rabbi Singer certainly refutes a lot of TRULY SLOPPY scholarship by some Christians, but Dr. Brown definitely rises to the challenge! Incidentally, to better understand the controversy, I enthusiastically participated in a Judaism course of study delivered by a respected Rabbi at a local synagogue for those people interested in joining. I purchased and read all the required reading for the class over several months, plus a few additional books that the Rabbi approved. I feel that this was a valuable experience giving me new insights, perspectives, and respect for the Tanakh, which by the way were the only scriptures available to Yeshua and his disciples. Kind regards, Querius P.S. This is exactly why I limited my previous post to only VERIFIABLE FACTS, rather than apologetic arguments.Querius_{March 27, 2023
March
03
Mar
27
27
2023
09:14 AM
9
09
14
AM
PDT}

Anyone interested in Daniel 9:26,27 with reference to Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjKLYEo2AMk RAMRAM_{March 26, 2023
March
03
Mar
26
26
2023
05:06 PM
5
05
06
PM
PDT}

RAM @28,
Thanks for the consideration, but my views on the matter are not convictions. They are conclusions.
Yes, granted.
Very curious that no NT writer attempted an identification of the “anointed” with Jesus.
Again, I think I can provide you with verifiable facts to the contrary. First of all, the Greek word, christos means “anointed one” and is equivalent to Mashiach in Hebrew or Messiah. In the Tanakh, priests and kings were anointed, which represented a heavenly ordination. So, here’s a verifiable quote.
When Yeshua came into the territory around Caesarea Philippi, he asked his talmidim, “Who are people saying the Son of Man is?” They said, “Well, some say Yochanan the Immerser, others Eliyahu, still others Yirmeyahu or one of the prophets.” “But you,” he said to them, “who do you say I am?” Shim‘on Kefa answered, “You are the Mashiach, the Son of the living God.” “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan,” Yeshua said to him, “how blessed you are! For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was my Father in heaven. - Mattityahu 16:13-17 (Complete Jewish Bible by Rabbi David Stern) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16&version=CJB
Regarding the link you provided to Jews for Judaism, I found that I agreed with a good portion of what was written. Thank you. Let me also add that I check much of what’s written in the translated Masoretic Text of the Tanakh that’s in current use by referring to the same passages in the Septuagint (LXX), that was completed in the second century BCE. The Septuagint is a pre-CE translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek for the million or so Greek-speaking Jews in Alexandria and elsewhere. The Masoretes were traditionalist Jewish rabbis and scholars in the sixth to the tenth centuries CE in Tiberius who created the Masoretic Text (MT), which was the result of hundreds of “corrections” (their term) or revisions of the Tanakh. These revisions, now called “recensions,” corrected variant readings, and the earlier variant Hebrew texts were destroyed. I also check texts that I study against the Hebrew and Aramaic text in the Dead Sea Scrolls, where available, which were also written pre-CE. Sadly, most of Daniel 9 did not survive. So, the purpose of Gabriel as recorded in Daniel 9 was to inform Daniel of events of the future in a given period of time. Here are the verifiable, undeniable facts: 1. The 70 x 7 or 490 year period would start with a word to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple and would END by finishing off sin, wiping out lawless deeds, atoning for iniquities, and bringing eternal righteousness. The 490 years are divided into three segments: 49 years, and 434 years, and a final 7 years. 2. During the first 7 x 7 or 49 years, Jerusalem and the Temple were indeed rebuilt as Gabriel said. 3. It would be 62 more sevens, until the anointed one. The anointing would then be destroyed. 4. After the 62 sevens, Jerusalem and the Temple would be once again destroyed. This verifiably occurred in 70 CE. The Roman General Titus besieged Jerusalem around Passover in 70 CE and Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed on Tisha B'Av, about 5 months later. 5. Thus, the anointed one appeared before 70 CE. That the Jews in the region expected a “Messiah ben David” to lead them to victory over the Romans is apparent by their use of palm branches when welcoming Yeshua to Jerusalem—exactly as was Judas Maccabeus almost 200 years earlier! The use of palm branches was a political symbol of Jewish independence and was featured on Maccabean coins. As you know, palm branches are used during Sukkot, “for He has tabernacled among us.”
Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Mashiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yossef. See Sukah 52b; Zohar I:25b; ibid. II:120a, III:153b, 246b and 252a. – Wikipedia reference
According to the New Testament writers, Yeshua of Nazareth refused to be made king by the people. He was “Messiah ben Yosef,” the suffering servant instead. As someone who trusts in Yeshua of Nazareth, I expect Him to return as Messiah ben David, completing Gabriel's message to Daniel, finishing off sin, wiping out lawless deeds, atoning for iniquities, and bringing eternal righteousness. Kind regards, QueriusQuerius_{March 26, 2023
March
03
Mar
26
26
2023
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT}

Querius: I wanted to show respect to your convictions Thanks for the consideration, but my views on the matter are not convictions. They are conclusions. I'm not an apologist. ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION You got me there. But I'm referring to Jesus as the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26. Very curious that no NT writer attempted an identification of the "anointed" with Jesus. This may interest you: https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/ RAMRAM_{March 26, 2023
March
03
Mar
26
26
2023
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT}

RAM @25, First of all, let me apologize for my long reply!
As we say in the legal profession. Non-responsive. That’s doesn’t mean you didn’t utter of a lot of words. It means you didn’t address the specific questions or statements.
Actually, I wanted to show respect to your convictions and not to argue with them. I stated that all I would present you would be VERIFIABLE facts. Two of the factual “testimonies” were actually what would be termed “hostile witnesses” in a court of law. There are MANY others like these!
Querius: How would you respond if I could demonstrate that your assertion above is wrong? RAM: That would be wonderful.
Okay, you asserted in @14 that there’s “A cold chilly silence from the NT writers on the subject of Daniel 9.” But, here’s a passage from Daniel 9 . . .
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” -Daniel 9:27 (NASB)
And here’s a passage from the NT referencing that description in Daniel 9 (and more specifically in Daniel 11 and Daniel 12). . .
(Yeshua speaking) “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) . . . - Matthew 24:14 (NASB)
However, Yeshua didn't choose to blurt out “Hey, everybody! Look! I’m the Messiah and here are the prophecies that prove it,” but rather to earn the trust of the religious-war-weary (and wary) Galileans by doing and saying things that only God could do and say!”
Full disclosure: I’m an old man, and was an Evangelical for many years. No longer. I put it to you, my friend, how would you respond if I could demonstrate that your beliefs are wrong?
Appreciated and I can truly sympathize. But actually, I’ve already tried! In some cases, I had to change my mind. Unlike many Christians, I’ve gone back to what scholars consider source documents and extra-Biblical sources, and I’ve compared versions including the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Syriac Peshitta, the Masoretic text, and other sources, especially texts from early skeptics. In my studies, I’ve run across respected college texts on ANE cultural issues (one in the last six months) that have later turned out to be Flat Out Wrong—arrogant claims from a so-called expert (Richard A. Horsely) falsified by subsequent archaeological finds! And now, I have to erase from my mind what he taught generations of his students. Ugh! A lot of the Bible includes allusions and references to other parts (like a web), and context and culture often provides important perspectives (rather than taking passages out of context or projecting our own cultural perspectives onto first-century Galileans). There are some really unexpected and intriguing mysteries that I’ve uncovered, and I've been able to solve a few (exciting!) but not all of them. Sadly, there’s a TON of quackery in Biblical studies both in the orthodox and liberal directions (not to even begin to mention toxic religious practices and teachings), which I find frustrating and disgusting. I now find myself having to verify everything I read. I’ve also endured lectures by cynical professors and rabbis, and was later able to determine that some of their more sensational assertions were completely false or misleading. The great thing about the Bible is that its “reliability” (in the scholarly sense) is excellent due to an security method somewhat analogous to cryptocurrency (!) in the sense that it relies on numerous copies instead of relying on a single source document that might easily be changed or hacked. Thus, changes in one version stand out in context to other versions, and in some cases, the early “copy girls” (chosen for their more readable handwriting) included “distigme” symbols in the margins with which they indicated insertions and deletions between texts. One of my favorite margin notes was written by an abbot scolding a monk who wanted to change Hebrews 1:3 to suit his own views. It read something like, “Fool and knave! Leave the old text unchanged.” Comparisons between the MT and the LXX are also illuminating! Have I researched with ALL controversial passages and claims. Not by a long shot. That would take more than one lifetime, but what I’ve been able to do is investigate a bunch of issues that I’m interested in, which has been very rewarding. The HEART my discipleship to the person and teachings of Yeshua are originalist rather than cultural, and my goal is to be authentic rather than hypocritical. This is absolutely the only appropriate response. And finally (finally!) my actions and attitudes that RESULT from my study are actually what count, rather than academic puffery or power. I hope I didn’t bore you to death--sorry if I did. Kind regards, QueriusQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
08:20 PM
8
08
20
PM
PDT}

Asauber @19,
And I would add that Deterministic Materialism (and flavors thereof) is as organized a religion as any other, with religious dogmas, saints, feasts, rituals (including sacrifices), and the like.
Yes, and don't forget indulgences and excommunications! :o -QQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
05:22 PM
5
05
22
PM
PDT}

Querius, As we say in the legal profession. Non-responsive. That's doesn't mean you didn't utter of a lot of words. It means you didn't address the specific questions or statements. How would you respond if I could demonstrate that your assertion above is wrong? That would be wonderful. Full disclosure: I'm an old man, and was an Evangelical for many years. No longer. I put it to you, my friend, how would you respond if I could demonstrate that your beliefs are wrong? All the best, RAMRAM_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
03:50 PM
3
03
50
PM
PDT}

Related @23,
Cut the crap, OK? ID is about an Intelligent Designer, right? RIGHT? SO, ID does not live in the lab.
Yes, and that's exactly why it takes NO POSITION on the Designer. With all due respect, you might be conflating ID with creationism. Creationism DOES take a position on the Designer, namely that the Designer is God.
Before I see another post about advanced aliens, I’d like to point that there’s no evidence of advanced aliens.
Neither is their any evidence of macroevolution, the evolution of new body plans, or the nature of the first life on earth (OOL). -QQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT}

Jerry at 22, Cut the crap, OK? ID is about an Intelligent Designer, right? RIGHT? SO, ID does not live in the lab. It does not stay in the lad. Like Darwinism, it is applied. By people. Academics and average people. Just like Darwinism was used to justify mass killing, ID is the basis - today, right now - of the fact that living things are designed. They did not design themselves. Before I see another post about advanced aliens, I'd like to point that there's no evidence of advanced aliens.relatd_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT}

Thanks for posting the book on philosophy, perhaps someone here will appreciate it
I found the book being discussed on a very, very religious site which occasionally sends me emails. They thought it was relevant to religion. I have only read about 20 pages so far and I can see how it could be the foundation for discussing religion. Half the reviewers on Amazon were from university theology departments. I thought this was the appropriate thread for the comment. Aside: ID is related to religion as a screw driver is related to the building of a house. Both make the final product easier though the final products (the thousands of religions and millions of houses) could be extremely different in their form. Both are useful for the end product. Each end product (religion or house) are often dramatically different from each other. Both religions and houses existed long before ID and a screwdriver.jerry_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT}

RAM @14,
A lot of words in your reply. (And, of course, I’ve heard all of it before. I used to be an evangelical myself.) But no actual response to what I actually wrote.
Yes, a lot of words that were put into sentences and paragraphs describing verifiable facts. I submitted NO arguments or rebuttals on purpose, sticking to those facts that you could yourself verify.
A cold chilly silence from the NT writers on the subject of Daniel 9.
Wanna bet? How would you respond if I could demonstrate that your assertion above is wrong? Let me suggest that you’d simply wave off your assertion because it’s not an important factor to your current beliefs. Am I wrong? As for me, I’m simply a follower of Yeshua, his teachings, and those of his disciples. I don’t consider myself belonging to any denomination and I’m ACUTELY aware of the destructive effects of toxic religion as I suspect that you are as well! My outlook on various denominations (many of which I’ve attended at one time or another) is that their members will be judged by their attitudes and actions (or lack thereof) rather than their positions on theological disputes, virtue signaling, or church governance. With sincerity, -QQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT}

Deterministic Materialism Commandment Primo: There is no God. You can make whatever you prefer into your god. Andrewasauber_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT}

Q, And I would add that Deterministic Materialism (and flavors thereof) is as organized a religion as any other, with religious dogmas, saints, feasts, rituals (including sacrifices), and the like. Andrewasauber_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT}

"Indeed, but let me add that the “deeply-held religious views” are actually those of the religion of deterministic materialism!" Q, Zactly. Andrewasauber_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT}

Asauber @13,
ID does have something to do with religion in the sense that everyone (literally) has religious views about their worlds, and ID violates some deeply-held religious views.
Indeed, but let me add that the “deeply-held religious views” are actually those of the religion of deterministic materialism! ID takes no position on God, gods, ideology, or theology. It simply limits science to the discipline of investigating what’s experimentally observable with a design perspective. This means that we can better understand nature with the methods used for reverse engineering rather than forcing everything into a failed 19th-century racist theory! -QQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:16 AM
10
10
16
AM
PDT}

Jerry @12,
So for ID, the simple part of it is about the universe. The universe is so fine tuned that it points to a creator of massive mind and intelligence. But yet most of the discussion on this site is about Evolution and secondarily OOL. This leads to any extraneous concept that comes up and each is complex. Just look at some of the OPs.
Even more fundamental is “why is there something rather than nothing?” Yes, the universe is indeed known to be extremely finely tuned at some fundamental level or levels. This fine tuning should also include the remarkable properties of water and the stunning revelations about the mathematical foundations of reality as experimentally observed in quantum mechanics. However, I don’t think all of the 19 (IIRC) finely tuned parameters of the universe have been shown to be independent of each other, but even if it should somehow boil down to one parameter, the interrelationships could still be considered higher-level parameters. See also this discussion . . . https://www.sciencealert.com/we-could-have-a-new-way-to-explain-why-our-universe-is-as-finely-tuned-for-life-as-it-is -QQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PDT}

Jerry @11,
I do not like to discuss religion here because ID has nothing to do with religion but an interesting new book was published this week.
Likewise. In this case, the topic here is specifically Otangelo Grosso’s new book on Yeshua. Thanks for posting the book on philosophy, perhaps someone here will appreciate it—I’m not very keen on philosophy since college and I’m focused the historical and practical aspects of my faith. -QQuerius_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT}

Querius, A lot of words in your reply. (And, of course, I've heard all of it before. I used to be an evangelical myself.) But no actual response to what I actually wrote. A cold chilly silence from the NT writers on the subject of Daniel 9. Cheers, RAMRAM_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
07:12 AM
7
07
12
AM
PDT}

Jerry, ID does have something to do with religion in the sense that everyone (literally) has religious views about their worlds, and ID violates some deeply-held religious views. Andrewasauber_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
06:54 AM
6
06
54
AM
PDT}

I bought the book and it is expensive, $29 for kindle version. It has from what I can see nothing about ID but more on philosophy, What would one expect in a book by a professor of philosophy. But I found one very interesting concept from a few minutes of poking. It is about simplicity. The simpler something is, the more likely it can be shown to be true or not true. As things get more complex, there are more ways for it to go wrong. So for ID, the simple part of it is about the universe. The universe is so fine tuned that it points to a creator of massive mind and intelligence. But yet most of the discussion on this site is about Evolution and secondarily OOL. This leads to any extraneous concept that comes up and each is complex. Just look at some of the OPs. There is also an interesting discussion on the nature of science at the beginning of the book and how we know.jerry_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT}

I do not like to discuss religion here because ID has nothing to do with religion but an interesting new book was published this week. It is
Who Are You, Really?: A Philosopher's Inquiry into the Nature and Origin of Persons Many answers have been offered throughout history in response to these perennial questions, including those from biological, anthropological, sociological, political, and theological approaches. And yet the questions remain. Philosopher Joshua Rasmussen offers his own step-by-step examination into the fundamental nature and ultimate origin of persons. Using accessible language and clear logic, he argues that the answer to the question of what it means to be a person sheds light not only on our own nature but also on the existence of the one who gave us life
https://www.amazon.com/Who-Are-You-Really-Philosophers/dp/1514003945/ref=sr_1_3?crid=YR9CY2C0RH36&keywords=josh+rasmussen+books&qid=1679743680&sprefix=Josh+ras%2Caps%2C115&sr=8-3 Know nothing about it other than someone recommended it and was published on Monday. Though one reviewer mentioned cosmological reasoning so sounds a little like ID.jerry_{March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
04:47 AM
4
04
47
AM
PDT}

Ram @9, Instead or arguing with you, my friend, let me simply provide an inventory of facts that you can verify for yourself. You will, of course, draw your own conclusion. In Daniel 9, The angel Gabriel provides Daniel a prophecy with a beginning event, an end, and a number representing a time period. This time period is divided into 70 groups of seven along with some milestones: • Jerusalem and the Temple will be rebuilt after 7 groups of seven or 49 years. • Messiah arrives and is killed after 62 more groups of seven. • Jerusalem and the Temple are then once again destroyed. • In the final group of seven, a treaty is signed and then broken in the middle of the seven. The sacrifices and grain offerings are halted, and an abomination that makes desolate takes place. The perpetrator will then be destroyed. • Gabriel describes the conclusion of this prophecy: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.” • Note that forty is a significant number in Torah, representing a period of trial. This abomination that makes desolate is indeed described in the New Testament (B’rit Chadasha) in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 concerning “an abomination” “standing in the holy place” as mentioned in Daniel 9, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12. Next, let’s consider what we know from historically verifiable ancient documents and events: • Four different orders were given to allow the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. Cyrus gave an order in 538-536 BCE; Darius Hystaspes reaffirmed the order by Cyrus 521 BCE, followed by Artexerxes I to Ezra in 457-8 BCE, and Artexerxes I to Nehemiah in 444 BCE. 483 years from one of the four starting dates results in the following possibilities: 538-536 BCE + 483 years = 55-53 BCE; 521 BCE + 483 years = 38 BCE; 457-8 BCE + 483 years = 26-27 CE (remembering that there wasn't a year 0); 444 BCE + 483 years = 40 CE. One of these four must be the correct. • In the first segment of 7 groups of seven or 49 years, Jerusalem was indeed rebuilt along with the second Temple. • After a total of 69 sevens or 483 years, Messiah would come and be killed. A man named Yeshua did start his ministry in about 26-27 CE and he claimed be to the Messiah. He was, in fact, executed by the Romans around 30 CE. • Jerusalem and the Temple were, in fact, destroyed by Titus and the Roman army in 70 CE, about 40 years later. According to Gabriel, Messiah must have been killed before 70 CE. • Several miraculous events have been recorded in the Talmud, a document that also contains descriptions antagonistic toward Yeshua. The Jerusalem Talmud states:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open." - Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157
A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves." - Soncino version, Yoma 39b
• 40 years before 70 CE, when the mysterious signs in the Temple occurred is 30 CE, so there's a 40-year gap between the execution of Yeshua and the destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple. HOWEVER . . . Absolutely nothing remotely remarkable in the way of a treaty occurred in 70-77 CE, and the third Temple remains unreconstructed to this day. This seems to indicate a gap between the 69th and 70th groups of seven. The New Testament (Luke 21) calls this period when Jerusalem is trampled under foot, "the times of the gentiles." And that's where I'll leave you, my friend. -QQuerius_{March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
07:10 PM
7
07
10
PM
PDT}

Curiously, there were five known date-setting interpretations of Daniel 9 prior to the first century AD/BCE. None of them match the novel interpretation (and one that uses a peculiar handling of the numerical construction of Dan 9) that emerged among Christians well after the NT was written. Even more curiously, no NT writer mentioned Daniel 9. --RAMram_{March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
04:00 PM
4
04
00
PM
PDT}

Pyrrhomaniac1 @6,
The “confirmation” of such “prophecies” would be far more persuasive if one could show that it is extremely unlikely that the authors of the New Testament were aware of these prophecies when they wrote down stories that supposedly confirmed them.
Nonsense. And the people in Judea were intensely aware of the prophecies in the Tanakh concerning Messiah. I'm afraid that no physical or historical evidence would satisfy your skepticism, because your skepticism mostly likely emerged from your moral choices and preferences rather than physical and historical evidence. • Daniel likely completed his writings in the Tanakh around 530 B.C. (aka BCE). No scholar disputes that Daniel's prophecies were written before the Messiah's crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that followed 40 years later. • Ezekiel began his 22-year ministry and his prophecies in the Tanakh in 593 B.C. The prophesied massive invasion of Israel by the nations I listed (which will fail due to God's intervention) would not be possible without Israel becoming a nation again, which happened in 1948. • Yeshua referred to Daniel’s prophecy about the death of Messiah followed by the complete destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple in about 30 A.D. (aka CE), which was fulfilled 40 years later in 70 A.D. The New Covenant (aka the archaic term, New "Testament") was completed before 64 A.D. when Nero hired arsonists to burn down Rome, blaming the Christians and initiating a massive genocide against them, none of which is mentioned in the New Covenant, nor is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. What will you think when you see this invasion of Israel from the north by Turkey, Iran, southern Russia, and a few other states? I can predict that you will rationalize it away. There are many, many other prophecies in the Tanakh as well, including a massive earthquake that splits the ground along the Jordan river valley, half sliding north and the other half sliding south. Oh, but that will be yet another coincidence. Did you know that global warming is a plague mentioned in the book of Revelation? Yes, of course, another coincidence. Revelation 11:18 (NIV) reads . . .
. . . The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.
I'm sure you'll happily argue that humanity certainly won't destroy the earth as is indicated in the Bible. -QQuerius_{March 21, 2023
March
03
Mar
21
21
2023
11:04 AM
11
11
04
AM
PDT}

it would trivially easy for them to write down the stories of Jesus in such a way that the stories appeared to confirm the prophecies
Yes, that is true. But why pick an obscure itinerant carpenter and a bunch of hapless fishermen to make it happen? Then pick a philosophy that was extremely foreign to everyone of their day originating from these hacks. Then have all the instigators get assassinated. Sounds like pulp fiction novels of the 1850s wouldn’t dare try such nonsense.jerry_{March 21, 2023
March
03
Mar
21
21
2023
09:34 AM
9
09
34
AM
PDT}

The "confirmation" of such "prophecies" would be far more persuasive if one could show that it is extremely unlikely that the authors of the New Testament were aware of these prophecies when they wrote down stories that supposedly confirmed them. Otherwise, it seems fairly clear that if they were aware of these prophecies (and perhaps had even read them) then it would trivially easy for them to write down the stories of Jesus in such a way that the stories appeared to confirm the prophecies.PyrrhoManiac1_{March 21, 2023
March
03
Mar
21
21
2023
07:00 AM
7
07
00
AM
PDT}

1 2 Next

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply