Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

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Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
JohnADavison, “So how about it skeech. Who are you and what do you do for a living? If you fail to answer you can be certain that this investigator will evaluate everything you present here or elsewhere as the ravings of an intellectual coward. If anyone knows the identity of skeech or of any other anonymous blowhard, let me know via email so I can expose that person to his immediate supervisors and the intellectual community in general.” No childish name calling will be tolerated here John. I’m serious. And secondly, the merits of the arguments stand or don’t stand on their own. You’re welcome to demand no anonymity on your own blog, you’re not welcome to demand it here as a prerequisite to commenting. Let this be a warning.Clive Hayden
March 30, 2009
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StephenB writes, "Atheists must be careful in private schools, which are few; Christians must be careful in public schools, which are many." I strongly disagree. I see no signs whatsoever that Christians in the schools I have been in have to be "careful" about being known as Christians. In my current school, many wear crosses, go to the same churches as their colleagues, etc. Of course, everyone, religious or not, has to stay between the bounds of what is legally permissible in public schools. No one can prosyletize or otherwise act in a way that appears to be an endorsement by the teacher of a particular religious or non-religious viewpoint. But that is different than just having to careful about being known as a Christian, which I don't think is a problems, and certainly not in a majority of public schools, as Stephen claims.hazel
March 30, 2009
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----"Hazel: Surely you don’t mean this. The vast majority of secondary and elementary school teachers are religious, and again, those that are atheists have to be careful about showing themselves as such." Atheists must be careful in private schools, which are few; Christians must be careful in public schools, which are many. So, given the numbers and the general temper of our politically-correct culture, Christians must be far more careful than atheists. In any case, the main isssue is less about teachers' personal beliefs and more about what they are and are not allowed to teach. At this point in our history, the law doesn't matter; we stopped being a nation of laws long ago. What matters is what the Darwinists and their faithful constituents in the public school system believe. According to the Cornell evolution project, 95.8% of evolutionary biologists are atheistic/agnostic and only 4.2% are theists. Also, a recent survey published in the leading science journal “Nature,” showed that 93% of those in the NAS are atheist/ agnostic and only 7% are theists. Atheism is the religion of the academy and religious skepticism what the academy enforces in the public schools. The same Darwinist-Deweyite policy of anti-Christianity rules the educational system from K1 all the way through to graduate school. Whatever world-views public school teachers may have, they generally hold fast to the practical atheist agenda in all areas, including moral relativism, explicit sex education, situational ethics, unguided evolution, and political correctness on all matters of religion. For a good reference, consult "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, by Charlotte Iserbyt. The current state of affairs was no accident. Also, Jerry is right about the scientific component. Darwinists cannot and will not defend their position. Oh sure, they can go on endlessly about ID's alleged insufficiencies or labor endlessly over weasel worded weasel diagrams, but when Timeuas, John Davison and others start asking the really hard questions, they suddenly and inexplicably find that their schedule has become unduly burdensome. Invariably, the heavyweights arrive with a bang and leave with a whimper. On the other hand, the lightweights continue harping because, unlike the heavyweights, they are too dull of mind to understand the significance of the hard questions that the heavyweights have just ignored.StephenB
March 30, 2009
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Thank God I'm a nobody. It's liberating to have absolutely no ego to protect and no credentials to sully.angryoldfatman
March 30, 2009
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bFast @47
Call for new thread! See: http://www.livescience.com/ani.....erica.html, It appears that the precambrian traces that were hopeful evidence of precambrian multicellular life were actually created by single-celled grape-sized blobs. This is MAJOR evidenciary support for ID!
How, exactly? JJJayM
March 30, 2009
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Call for new thread! See: http://www.livescience.com/animals/090328-nhm-gromia-sphaerica.html, It appears that the precambrian traces that were hopeful evidence of precambrian multicellular life were actually created by single-celled grape-sized blobs. This is MAJOR evidenciary support for ID!bFast
March 30, 2009
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Oh John, John. *sigh* I was hoping for a much more challenging pissing contest. Too bad. If I'm an insecure coward, then what does that make someone attacking and insulting an insecure coward? If people like me must be ignored...well, you do see the problem here right? I would have thought Your Highness would not Deign reply To one such as Itragic mishap
March 30, 2009
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JohnADavison said: "Ucommon Descent has just about the same level of anonymity as Pharyngula, Panda’s Thumb, EvC, ARN, richarddawkins.net and just about every other weblog which deals with the great mystery of our origins. " As far as I know this is how most of the Internet operates. I participate in commenting on many blogs & forums, on a variety of subjects, and it's clear that the majority of people use pseudonyms (and certainly nobody is asked for their credentials). As Hazel has pointed out there are many good reasons to remain anonymous on the web, and like her I prefer to keep my professional life and private life separate (I also worry about identity theft and have a variety of email addresses for that reason).JTaylor
March 30, 2009
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Ucommon Descent has just about the same level of anonymity as Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, EvC, ARN, richarddawkins.net and just about every other weblog which deals with the great mystery of our origins. As long as that persists it will have just about the same level of credibility.JohnADavison
March 30, 2009
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I am sure that the law supports the right of teachers (as well as students) to wear religious jewelry. An administrator telling teachers to "cool it" is wrong to be doing so. I know there are cases, more frequent than there should be, of administrators imposing restrictions on the expression of religious belief in public schools, but that is because the administrators don't know the law - and they should.hazel
March 30, 2009
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I was just pointing out that admitting publicly that I am an atheist would, in the community and school in which I live and work, subject me to some negative repercussions. Your point is correct and you certainly should not be forced to admit to ittribune7
March 30, 2009
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"Surely you don’t mean this. The vast majority of secondary and elementary school teachers are religious, and again, those that are atheists have to be careful about showing themselves as such." I can understand how this varies by part of country and by school district, but I had a friend tell me that open display of Christian symbols such as a cross on a chain was considered taboo in a lot of local schools because it was an invitation for some parents to complain so teachers were suggested to "cool it" with any outward sign of religious affiliation.jerry
March 30, 2009
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#26 You are indeed exactly what you have named yourself - a tragic mishap, just another cowardly blowhard like every other user of this weblog who must hide his indentity. I am not asking for credentials. That would follow from ones identity. A person whose identity must be hidden should be ignored. He has defined himself as an intellectual coward. Most of the users of this forum are, by my criterion, contributing absolutely nothing of value. Now just what is going to be done about it? Must I be banished for stating my convictions? We will soon see. I am worried sick at what might happen to me here as elsewhere. You can be certain of that. I'm absolutely terrified! Do what must be done.JohnADavison
March 30, 2009
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Hi Tribune. I was just pointing out that admitting publicly that I am an atheist would, in the community and school in which I live and work, subject me to some negative repercussions. That's all. I was not making any statement at all about "this" being a religious or scientific debate, because that is not what I was talking about.hazel
March 30, 2009
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Hazel, I agree with you about pseudonyms. But the thing your post 20 shows is that, for atheists, this is a religious debate, not a science one. Be honest, what objective evidence can be provided that would make you accept ID?tribune7
March 30, 2009
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@24 :"How can I launch an ad hominem attack on an anonymous user? Skeech contributes nothing to this forum. For that matter who is JTaylor? What does he do for a living and what are his credentials? I’ll bet we will never know." Credentials should not mean anything on a site such as this. Either what you are saying makes sense, or it does not, and judging by Skeech's comments, he is saying something some people dont like, rather than being a nuisance, this is just an attempt to silence the other side from makin a contribution. If credentials truely mean something in a forum such as this, then everyone's words should be weighted by how their opinions relate to their own professional entities. But then only 'neo-Darwinist' should be allowed to say anything, as they are the only ones with any professional training/statue for their words to mean anything (which is 'Reductio ad absurdum' what happens if you start asking for credentials). Noel.Nnoel
March 30, 2009
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How does posting one's history or credentials in an internet forum make that person any less anonymous? Unless everyone starts meeting face-to-face and running background checks, do we ever really know who we're talking to?ScottAndrews
March 30, 2009
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5 --> Yet further, when coupled with the non-disclosure by the two bodies of the materialism-imposing effect of imposing the rule that science may only seek "natural causes," such agenda-serving questionable demarcation criteria mislead and can even manipulate the general public on the true status of the relevant theories and factual claims being made on origins science. For, the public at large still believes that science is an unfettered search for the truth about the world in light of evidence, instead of being what the rule enforces: the best evolutionary materialist -- note the censoring constraint -- explanation of the cosmos from hydrogen to humans. Non-disclosure of the effects of such an imposition on the part of responsible parties who know or should know better ["ignorance of the law is no excuse"], on even the most charitable interpretation, must raise questions of deception by gross and culpable negligence. 6 --> Next, it is simply and manifestly false that the [Neo-] Darwinian Theory of Evolution is in the same well-tested, abundantly empirically supported category as, say, Newtonian gravitation and mechanics circa 1680 - 1880. (And, let us observe: after about 200 years of being the best supported and most successful scientific theory, the Newtonian synthesis collapsed into being a limiting case at best, in light of unexpected findings in the world of the very small and the very fast; provoking a scientific revolution from about 1900 to 1930 that resulted in Modern Physics. Science is open-ended, provisional and hopefully progressive. A pattern of progress in which theory replacement is at least as prominent as theory refinement.) 7 --> For, Newtonian dynamics was and is about currently and directly observable phenomena, i.e. so-called operational science: what are the evident patterns and underlying ordering principles of the currently operating, observable natural world? 8 --> By contrast, the material part of the Theory of Evolution -- we are not talking about what has been termed microevolution -- is about trying to make a "plausible" reconstruction of an unobservable, projected remote past of life based on traces in the present and on extrapolation of currently observed or "reasonable" processes and principles. That is, it is an origins science, a fundamentally historical investigation based on principles of inference to best explanation. Its findings and explanations on the reconstructed, extrapolated and projected natural history of life are thus inherently less well tested than those of theories that deal with present accessible and directly observable reality. 9 --> Worse yet, given the primary reference in context of "these standards," all of this is backed up by a subtle -- and on the evidence of events since 2005, successful -- unjustifiable intimidatory threat. For, it is simply not true that students exposed to the traditional, historically well-warranted understanding of what good science is (and/or should strive to be) "will not be well-prepared for the rigors of higher education or the demands of an increasingly complex and technologically-driven world." 10 --> Instead, we can note that NAS and NSTA hold significant prestige, and are viewed by a great many people and institutions as responsible, reasonable and authoritative. So, if they refuse their imprimatur to the Kansas Board's work, then it could materially damage the prospects for Kansan students to get into so-called "good" Colleges, jobs, etc. In short, the children of the state were being held hostage by ideologised institutions and associated individuals holding positions of great trust and responsibility, but abjectly failing in their duties of care to truth, disclosure and justice. Thus, we can see the Lewontinian magisterium in full cry. And, where was the broad-scale strongly voiced public objection from the pro-grade scientific, phil of sci and education communities? Nowhere to be seen. In short, the rot is deep and widespread. So much so that the complaints documented in Expelled and elsewhere are but the tip of the iceberg. 3] Now, on a linked technical point . . . I see where Seversky [who still needs to explain why he used a cite and link that violated my privacy and also approvingly cited -- as the Anti Evo folks have in recent weeks a commentator who was indulging in blood slander against Evangelical Christians by equating such to Islamist terrorists and the like, while providing enabling rhetoric for public lewdness] has said:
If it is scientific respectability then they [ID supporters among he scientific community] need to actually do the science. Testing the Explanatory Filter would be a good place to start.
1 --> If "science" is to be understood as the Lewontinian materialists do, which is fairly obviously intended, we see that there is something very wrong to the point of enabling for injustice and magisterium-imposed question-begging in this. 2 --> As to the explanatory filter, it is based on the idea that we observe that causes are observed to come in three key flavours, which may jointly act together but can be disaggregated for purposes of analysis: [1] mechanical forces of necessity, [2] undirected (stochastic) contingency, [3] directed (designed) contingency. 3 --> To see this, think about so common an example as a dropped die that tumbles to rest: [1] it falls under mechanical necessity of gravity; [2] it tumbles to a position as a contingent outcome. [3] In case the die is fair, by chance, but [4] in case it has been loaded, in part by design. 4 --> In fact, explanation by chance/ necessity / design is so well known, well-tested and well-ACCEPTED that it is the foundation stone of much of applied science and statistics, forensic investigations, management and more. Was that fire the result of accident or arson? (Where; once heat, air and fuel come together a fire reliably results by mechanical necessity.) Was that pattern of employment chance or prejudice? Was this death natural causes, accident, suicide or murder? Was it the fertiliser, the seed or the result of chance that this plot produced such a good crop? And more, far more. 5 --> Indeed, in pure science, we must always be concerned that a particular reported result was the result of the forces of nature we were looking for, or random chance that produces scatter, or an artifact of experiment design and equipment that biases results away from accuracy, or intentional "cooking" of results. (Sometimes, biases and prejudices also unintentionally skew reported results.) 6 --> So, it is plain that the explanatory filter -- that natural regularities are rooted in necessity, that chance gives rise to credibly undirected, stochastic contingency, and that design shows itself in reliable signs of design -- is massively tested, well warranted and taken as a mater of course. Save in one context. 7 --> This of course is the situation where it just might point away from the imposed a prioris of Lewontinian materialism. In short, prejudice. 8 --> And, to impose upon science that it does not seek the truth but instead the best evolutionary materialist explanation, is obvious censorship. Now, backed up by major institutional forces to the point where protest is being arrogantly, even brutally marginalised and demonised then dismissed ____________ FOR SHAME! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 30, 2009
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Onlookers: Pardon a bit of a reality check: 1] Dogmatic materialist orthodoxy: We start with Richard Lewontin, NY Review of Books [reviewing Sagan's last book], 1997:
Sagan's argument is straightforward. We exist as material beings in a material world, all of whose phenomena are the consequences of physical relations among material entities. The vast majority of us do not have control of the intellectual apparatus needed to explain manifest reality in material terms, so in place of scientific (i.e., correct material) explanations, we substitute demons . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
In short, we see here a worldview level prejudice imposed on science, which robs it of being what it is at its best: an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) pursuit of the truth about the world in light of empirical evidence. Not to mention, such a view utterly lacks historical or phil of sci or epistemological or ethical warrant. 2] But, is such an attitude actually "official"? To see that, just look all around you. But, perhaps the most revealing illustration is the intervention jointly made in 2005 by the US National Academy of Sciences [NAS] and the US National Science Teachers Association [NSTA], through their joint statement on the 2005 science education standards for Kansas, in response to an attempt to reinstate a more or less traditional school level "definition" of science. The objected-to definition: “Science is a systematic method of continuing investigation, that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building, to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.” [This contrasts with a telling, materialism-loaded 2001 def'n that plainly passed the muster of such august institutions: “Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations of the world around us.” ("Natural," of course is a stand-in for materialistic, as this remark by NAS in a 2008 pamphlet on "Science, Evolution and Creationism," p. 10, states: In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others. If explanations are based on purported forces that are outside of nature, scientists have no way of either confirming or disproving those explanations . . . ] The 2005 intervention:
. . . the members of the Kansas State Board of Education who produced Draft 2-d of the KSES have deleted text defining science as a search for natural explanations of observable phenomena, blurring the line between scientific and other ways of understanding. Emphasizing controversy in the theory of evolution -- when in fact all modern theories of science are continually tested and verified -- and distorting the definition of science are inconsistent with our Standards and a disservice to the students of Kansas. Regretfully, many of the statements made in the KSES related to the nature of science and evolution also violate the document’s mission and vision. Kansas students will not be well-prepared for the rigors of higher education or the demands of an increasingly complex and technologically-driven world if their science education is based on these standards. Instead, they will put the students of Kansas at a competitive disadvantage as they take their place in the world.
Let's take this apart, at a few key points: 1 --> Immediately, there is no one "the definition of science" that may be owned or authoritatively imposed by any institution or group of institutions. Nor can such bodies, however august, properly demand that we must take their presented definitions at face value; without critical assessment or drawing our own conclusions for ourselves in light of our own investigation and analysis. For, science is a vital part of our common heritage as a civilisation, and what it is, and how it works are matters of historically grounded fact and philosophical discussion on comparative difficulties relative to those facts, not rulings by any officially established or de facto "Magisterium." 2 --> As a matter of fairly easily checked fact, the Kansas definition of 2005, as cited above, reflects longstanding praxis, and the resulting historic general consensus on what science is and should do; without imposing question-begging agendas. This can easily be seen from a look at the sorts of summaries we may read in high quality dictionaries from before the recent attempted imposition of methodological naturalism as an alleged criterion of science vs. non-science or pseudo-science. E.g.:
science: a branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles involving the systematized observation of and experiment with phenomena, esp. concerned with the material and functions of the physical universe. [Concise Oxford, 1990] scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge [”the body of truth, information and principles acquired by mankind”] involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. [Webster's 7th Collegiate, 1965]
4 --> The phrase on "blurring the line between scientific and other ways of understanding . . ." reflects, at best, a deep and disqualifying ignorance by the representatives of the NAS and NSTA of the overall result after decades of intense philosophical debate over the demarcation lines between science and non-science. For, there is no set of distinctive approaches to acquiring knowledge and understanding or inferring to best explanation that are universal across the conventionally accepted list of sciences, and/or that are so necessary to, sufficient for and unique to scientific investigation and argument that we may use them to mark a defining line between science and non-science. (For that matter, the real epistemological challenge is not over attaching the prestigious label "science," but over [1] whether we are using sound, effective, reliable and fair methods of inquiry, and [2] the actual degree of warrant that attaches to what we accept as knowledge, however labelled.) [ . . . ]kairosfocus
March 30, 2009
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In my community, when one runs for a public office and the newspaper runs a preview of each candidate, they start with a little profile that includes religious preference. I can assure you that if one writes "none" you have no chance of being elected. I know there is a difference between this case and some of the academic cases you are probably thinking of, but I think you exaggerate the extent to which religious thinking is seen as a detriment. And you write, "Not as much at the secondary and elementary level as long as there is no outward display of anything that is inconsistent with atheism." Surely you don't mean this. The vast majority of secondary and elementary school teachers are religious, and again, those that are atheists have to be careful about showing themselves as such.hazel
March 30, 2009
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I find the demands to eliminate pseudonymity in this thread to be hypocritical and, frankly, creepy. ID opponents have just as much reason to desire pseudonymity as do ID proponents. Consider the case of Paul Mirecki who was physically beaten for statements made online. Consider also UD's own Joseph, who has arguably threatened David Kellogg on his blog. I note in particular the lines "I am being very generous by saying that on this blog as opposed to driving a few miles to say it to your face." and "And yes I will do whatever it takes to stop it." which indicate that Joe G knows where David Kellogg lives and that suggest that Joe G is not restricting his reaction to David Kellogg's postings to online responses. People have a right to protect themselves. The ideas are what matter.JayM
March 30, 2009
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"it would possible be detrimental to me to be publicly revealed to my teaching community as an atheist." I can understand that but in general the tenor in the academy, the popular culture and in media is that atheism is the more sophisticated world view and those who believe in religion are somehow limited. It is a belief in superstition and spirits and other nonsense things. And this world view is enforced in lots of ways, one of which is hiring, tenure, funding etc. Not as much at the secondary and elementary level as long as there is no outward display of anything that is inconsistent with atheism. One way of enforcing this at the secondary level is the forced ideology of Darwin in science and the inability to criticize it in most places. It is a complete reversal of 40 years ago and what prevailed for centuries.jerry
March 30, 2009
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So Mr. John A. "Credentials" Davison, I'm a coward and we're all going to die. Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I feel vigorously enlightened. Or maybe that was just some abnormally violent and heavy diarrhea.tragic mishap
March 30, 2009
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Gil, I don't your reply at 22 is relevant to what I said at 20. Among other things, I gave some reasons why it would possible be detrimental to me to be publicly revealed to my teaching community as an atheist.hazel
March 30, 2009
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JTaylor in #18 How can I launch an ad hominem attack on an anonymous user? Skeech contributes nothing to this forum. For that matter who is JTaylor? What does he do for a living and what are his credentials? I'll bet we will never know. Anonymity is the enemy of rational dialogue and always will be. It is the hallmark of cowardice and insecurity. It is not tolerated at my weblog without my certain knowlege as to why it must be necessary. I have no control over the policies here and wouldn't dream of trying to change them. I learned long ago that is an exercise in futility. When I enter any venue, it is with the following purposes. It is to enlighten, to inform, to challenge that which I know to be false and to bring a modicum of order to what is often chaos. I am not surprised that JTaylor and others are already urging my banishment. That has been my fate at just about every major discussion group that deals with the great mystery of phylogeny, including three times here at Uncommon Descent alone. Frankly, under the circumstances, I think Uncommon Descent should be grateful that I have been willing to return.JohnADavison
March 30, 2009
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Richard Colling at Olivet.crater
March 30, 2009
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Seversky #4:
On the one hand, science is demonised as some sort of quasi-religion whose dogmas are impervious to change, on the other hand, you kindly cite two cases which are evidence that it is quite the opposite. Which do you think it is?
No, true science is not the problem. Science is just the methodological study of the natural world. What is frequently portrayed as science are really just-so stories, fantastic OOL theories, and generally dogmatic defenses of a supposedly 100% proven theory, while thousands of very well-educated, intelligent people see major reasons to question its validity.uoflcard
March 30, 2009
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Well put, hazel. You're absolutely right. It's the facts and logic of our comments that should count, not our identities or our credentials. Cogent arguments from a convenience store clerk are still cogent. Drivel from a Nobel Prize winner is still drivel. I can't imagine why Davison and Dodgen are so eager to 'unmask' me, but somehow I doubt that my identity would interest them so much if my comments weren't hitting their mark. My posts have been disappearing today, presumably due to the same glitch that afflicted madsen and jerry this morning. I've re-registered as 'skeech plus' to get around the problem. I've saved the missing comments and will resubmit them later tonight.skeech plus
March 29, 2009
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Gil, if you're online, can you release my comment on the thread you started?David Kellogg
March 29, 2009
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Hazel, Give me an example of a publicly funded, state university college professor who has been denied tenure, ridiculed, tormented, vilified, or ostracized for advocating atheism or that Darwinism explains all of life's complexity and information content. You won't find any, but you'll find plenty of examples of the reverse.GilDodgen
March 29, 2009
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