Intelligent Design Natural selection

Paper: “anatomical novelty precedes ecological success”

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A friend points out that the researchers would seems to be implying that natural selection does not play a major role in the origins of anatomical novelty:

Origins of higher taxonomic groups entail dramatic and nearly simultaneous changes in morphology and ecological function, limiting our ability to disentangle the drivers of evolutionary diversification. Here we phylogenetically compare the anatomy and life habits of Cambrian–Ordovician echinoderms to test which facet better facilitates future success. Rates of morphological evolution are faster and involve more volatile trait changes, allowing morphological disparity to accrue faster and earlier in the Cambrian. However, persistent life-habit evolution throughout the early Palaeozoic, combined with iterative functional convergence within adaptive strategies, results in major expansion of ecospace and functional diversity. The interactions between tempo, divergence and convergence demonstrate not only that anatomical novelty precedes ecological success, but also that ecological innovation is constrained, even during a phylum’s origin.

Novack-Gottshall, P.M., Sultan, A., Smith, N.S. et al. Morphological volatility precedes ecological innovation in early echinoderms. Nat Ecol Evol (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41559-021-01656-0

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30 Replies to “Paper: “anatomical novelty precedes ecological success”

  1. 1
    jerry says:

    Natural selection is about genetics. Why would it have anything to do with Evolution?

    Because Darwin got it backwards, we dutifully act as if he didn’t.

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic framework, and especially with their shunning of Intelligent Design, are not even on the correct theoretical foundation in order to properly understand “Anatomical Novelty” and/or morphology in the first place.

    “There is also a presumption, typically when we talk about our genome, (that the genome) is a blueprint for making us. And that is actually not a proven fact in biology. That is an assumption. And (one) that I question because I don’t think that 4 billion bases, which would be 8 billion bits of information, that you would actually have enough information to specify a human being. If you consider for example that there are a quadrillion neural connections in the human brain, that’s vastly more neural connections in the human brain than there are bits (of information) in the human genome. So,,, there’s got to be something else going on that makes us what we are.”
    – Doug Axe – Intelligent Design 3.0 – Stephen C. Meyer – video
    https://youtu.be/lgs6J4LqeqI?t=4575

    In fact, Darwinists themselves excluded biological form from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis as being ‘irrelevant’ when they first formulated the Modern Synthesis, i.e. Neo-Darwinism

    On the problem of biological form – Marta Linde-Medina (2020)
    Excerpt: Embryonic development, which inspired the first theories of biological form, was eventually excluded from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis, (neo-Darwinism) as irrelevant.,,,
    At present, the problem of biological form remains unsolved.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12064-020-00317-3

    Notes:

    Darwinism vs Biological Form – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyNzNPgjM4w

    Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg

    Verse:

    Psalm 139:13-14
    For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    Marvelous are Your works,
    And that my soul knows very well.

  3. 3
    martin_r says:

    BA77
    Doug Axe:

    So,,, there’s got to be something else going on that makes us what we are.

    Doug Axe (molecular biologist) graduated from Caltech. As far as i know, Caltech is a technical university (California Institute of Technology ), they work with NASA.
    Caltech’s graduates are engineers (mostly).

    Axe might be right, that we are missing something, but i as an engineer would say, that we just don’t understand what exactly is going on inside the cell and how a species is being built (developed) from scratch.

    I as an engineer, I am pretty sure, that all the information IS stored in DNA (so i rather disagree with Axe, but he still might be right). I would not be surprised, if after all, the blueprint for how to build e.g. a human body is stored in the ‘Junk’ part of DNA ….

    In any case, the way species are being built from single cell, then the cell divides and divides, and after couple of months you get a full-size, fully autonomous, moving, very sophisticated 3D-‘object’, this is really an engineering SCI-FI … unfortunately, lay people can’t appreciate what i am talking about … lay people don’t think about such things… lay people listen to Darwinists, biologists, natural science graduates, romantics, who never made anything – Darwinists have no idea how this is done … which is not surprising, how could they … yes, Darwinists try hard to reverse-engineer the cell, but obviously, this technology is still beyond human comprehension …

    Doug Axe wrote something similar about fruit flies:

    mere fact that a firefly comes from a single cell that then develops into a firefly puts it in a completely different league from an iPhone that doesn’t happen with smartphones factories make smartphones fireflies come from fireflies and company and initial fertilized egg it is absolutely mind-boggling we have no idea how a single cell produces an adult…
    these things are marvelous

    unfortunately, and this is good for Darwinists, lay people will never appreciate that … lay people have no idea how things work … only engineers do …

  4. 4
    polistra says:

    … simultaneous changes limiting our ability to disentangle the drivers …

    In other words, God said Let there be life. And there was life.

  5. 5
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Martin_r
    I as an engineer, I am pretty sure, that all the information is stored in DNA

    There is not enough information in DNA . DNA is slave ,not master. DNA is just a local panel ,act only on cell level. Who coordonate the billions of cells like an orchestra? Must be a network that is supracellular ( brain). Cell send messages to brain and receive instructions from brain that will turn on/off the local switches according to signals received. In a hotel there is a central electronic panel (brain) that control all local room panels(cell) The wires are the nerves +chemical messengers/hormones in blood,lymph, interstitial liquid,etc.

  6. 6
    bornagain77 says:

    Martin_r, “I as an engineer, I am pretty sure, that all the information IS stored in DNA (so i rather disagree with Axe, but he still might be right).”

    Well I use to think so too Martin, but I found out that I was wrong. Simply put, and not to go into too much detail right now, but from a thermodynamic perspective, far more ‘positional information’ is required to explain biological form that can possibly be stored on DNA, (or even within an entire cell for that matter).

    “Since living organisms consistently resist the ravages of entropy that all forms of inanimate matter are subject to, there must be some non-physical principle allowing living matter to consistently defy the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And for Davies there is; the demon in the machine turns out to be information.”
    Robert Shedinger, “Hey, Paul Davies — Your ID Is Showing”
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/darwin-skeptic-robert-shedinger-calls-out-paul-davies/

    The information content that is found to be in a one cell bacterium, when working from the thermodynamic perspective, is found to be 10 to the 12 bits,,,

    Biophysics – Information theory. Relation between information and entropy: – Setlow-Pollard, Ed. Addison Wesley
    Excerpt: Linschitz gave the figure 9.3 x 10^12 cal/deg or 9.3 x 10^12 x 4.2 joules/deg for the entropy of a bacterial cell. Using the relation H = S/(k In 2), we find that the information content is 4 x 10^12 bits. Morowitz’ deduction from the work of Bayne-Jones and Rhees gives the lower value of 5.6 x 10^11 bits, which is still in the neighborhood of 10^12 bits. Thus two quite different approaches give rather concordant figures.
    – per astro

    ,,, Which is equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. ‘In comparison,,, the largest libraries in the world,, have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.”

    “a one-celled bacterium, e. coli, is estimated to contain the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Expressed in information in science jargon, this would be the same as 10^12 bits of information. In comparison, the total writings from classical Greek Civilization is only 10^9 bits, and the largest libraries in the world – The British Museum, Oxford Bodleian Library, New York Public Library, Harvard Widenier Library, and the Moscow Lenin Library – have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.”
    – R. C. Wysong
    http://books.google.com/books?.....;lpg=PA112

    ‘The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica.”
    – Carl Sagan, “Life” in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894

    Whereas obviously, again from the thermodynamic perspective, the information content necessary to explain a human form would be exponentially more than a single bacterial cell.

    To give a ballpark figure for the amount of ‘position information’ that is required to explain the human form, the following video states that “There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer, that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe.”

    “There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe.”
    Will (Quantum) Teleportation Ever Be Possible? – video – 2013
    https://youtu.be/yfePpMTbFYY?t=76

    As should be obvious, that vastly outstrips the 10^9 bits encoded on DNA or the 10^12 bits found within a bacterial cell when working from the thermodynamic perspective.

    As a engineer, here is a semi-related ‘head-scratching’ question for you that I think you will appreciate Martin: Namely, “,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?”

    The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott – 2010
    Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary.
    ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?
    Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity.
    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/.....-of-beings

    Verse and Image

    Mark 8:37
    Is anything worth more than your soul?

    Image – soul leaving the body at death
    https://slm-assets.secondlife.com/assets/5935044/lightbox/Spirit%20Release.jpg?1342658045

  7. 7
    doubter says:

    Martin_r@3

    I as an engineer, I am pretty sure, that all the information IS stored in DNA (so i rather disagree with Axe, but he still might be right). I would not be surprised, if after all, the blueprint for how to build e.g. a human body is stored in the ‘Junk’ part of DNA ….

    I don’t think this is even remotely possible – there is simply far far too much information incorporated in the brain’s structure, to speak nothing of the rest of the incredibly complex body.

    The following is looking at it at the level of individual cells, and does not even consider the vastly greater complexity at the atomic level.

    On average, a human brain contains about 100 billion (10**11) neurons and many more neuroglia which support and protect the neurons. Each neuron may be connected to up to 10,000 other neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion (a million billion, 10**15) synapses.

    For each synapse to be specified in the map of the brain would require many bits of additional information for each synapse giving the type of synapse, 3-D position, identity of the connecting neurons, etc. etc. Therefore the total information equivalent of the brain’s neurons would be very much greater.

    Then there are all the cells comprising the rest of the body. The total is presently estimated to be about 100 trillion cells including the brain, making up the 13 exceedingly complex organ systems, where each cell in this system of systems has to be specified as to its position and many other parameters.

    The DNA of the human genome is miniscule in magnitude compared to all this. The DNA is approximately 6.4 billion letters (base pairs) long. Equivalent to about 725 MB of information. That includes the “junk DNA”.

    It seems evident that the DNA must primarily exist to specify the needed proteins and where and when at the organ and tissue level to express them, not the total structure of the organism.

  8. 8
    martin_r says:

    Doubter, LCD …

    there is simply far far too much information incorporated in the brain’s structure, to speak nothing of the rest of the incredibly complex body.

    i don’t entirely understand, why do you think, that lots of information is needed for the brain’s structure …

    Everything is made of cells … cells divide/multiply … in IT, you can run the same subroutine, over and over and create/develop “a huge” structure using a single subroutine … in other words, even with a few bits of data you can create ‘huge structures’. Moreover, you don’t need to store everything … you can create required data from scratch e.g. using math …

    LCD

    Who coordonate the billions of cells like an orchestra?

    LCD, this is a great question, the growing of the body itself is an engineering marvel …

    However, i don’t think that a central panel is required for this purpose … There is so called intercellular signaling … cells communicate with each other via signaling molecules … i can imagine, that such a intercellular signaling can be used for coordination of any process …

    PS: a cell is a high advanced technology … and you guys underestimate it a bit … or did you mean, that we are missing something inside the cell in respect to how a body form is defined ? it looks like you would suggest some other process/set of data outside the cell …

  9. 9
    doubter says:

    Martin_r

    I think a good analogy would be a very large automated factory. It is a complex system of systems incorporating input mechanisms, transport systems within the factory, manufacturing subsystems, repair subsystems, machinery to make replacement parts, output mechanisms, a central brain, it goes on.

    Consider what it takes to build such a system. What it takes fundamentally starts with a library of blueprints and specifications containing all the information detailing exactly how each part of the system needs to be constructed and how they need to be interconnected.

    There’s no way to get around this. The information needs to exist in some form or another before the factory can be built, whether or not many subsystems in the factory actually fabricate other parts of the factory. In other words, even in that case the information still had to exist, even if it is by design built into these precursor parts of the factory. This information had to exist in some form before the factory existed. To reuse an old phrase, there’s no free lunch.

    In the case of the human brain, the myriads of patterns of synapses allowing specific logic designs of communication between neurons is an incredibly complex design, where the information to build it must exist before the brain is formed. Whether this information is in the form of 3-D coordinates and other information, and/or mathematical equations and algorithms, and/or language, or whatever. No free lunch.

  10. 10
  11. 11
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    1.The hypothalamus( a small neurosecretory part of brain )was specialized for the communication between the Central Nervous System and the endocrine system ;
    2.The endocrine system consists of ductless glands that release their hormones into the bloodstream;
    3.The total number of hormones in humans exceeds 130;
    4.The hypothalamus itself secretes its “releasing” hormones from nerve endings.
    5. Each of the hypothalamic-releasing hormones controls the synthesis of a specific pituitary hormone, which, in turn, stimulates secretion of a specific hormone by the target endocrine glands.
    6.Changes in the external environment are perceived in the brain through the animal senses, and the hypothalamus is connected to the external world through the forebrain .
    7.The hypothalamus–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis is a major player in the vertebrate response to stress.

    Who monitors and regulates the body temperature, sodium chloride, glucose levels, and chemistry of body fluids in general,controls most of the involuntary activities in the animal body, including innate behaviors? Every cell individually or brain ?

  12. 12
    martin_r says:

    Doubter

    There’s no way to get around this. The information needs to exist in some form or another before the factory can be built

    the cell is the factory – the cell already exists … nothing needs to be built.

    look at 3D printers. Basically, a 3D printer does what a cell does. Of course, a 3D printer is a very primitive device. Requires external source of power, requires so called filament tape (when it is out of filament, it can’t print) and so on … but basically, a 3D printer and a cell is a very good analogy.

  13. 13
    martin_r says:

    Who monitors and regulates the body temperature, sodium chloride, glucose levels, and chemistry of body fluids in general,controls most of the involuntary activities in the animal body, including innate behaviors? Every cell individually or brain ?

    Every cell individually or brain ?

    I think both …

  14. 14
    martin_r says:

    guys, in general, i understand what is your point.

    e.g. how a particular cell of out several trillions knows, where to go, where it is its place in your body. The one who will figure this out gets a Nobel. Basically, that particular 3D-position defines the body form. But this information could be stored in DNA. I don’t see why not. Like i said, you don’t need to store everything, you can acquire some needful yet not-existing data by using stored data and make more of them … e.g. to get a right half of the body, you just need to mirror the left half or vice versa … (i know, a human body is not entirely symmetric, but i hope you got my point )

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    Martin: “But this information could be stored in DNA. I don’t see why not.”

    At about the 40:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Jonathan Wells, (who specializes in embryology), using a branch of mathematics called category theory, demonstrates that, during embryological development, ‘positional information’ must somehow be added to the developing embryo, ‘from the outside’, by some ‘non-material’ method, in order to explain the transdifferentiation of cells into multiple different states during embryological development.

    “The problem in embryo development is: How do cells become different from each other in highly specified ways? We saw that DNA does not specify the original membrane pattern much less the subsequent ones.
    A relatively recent branch of biology, called “Relational biology” attacks it (this question) in a formal way. Most modern biology is an exercise in molecular dynamics. It focuses on molecular dynamics and neglects their arrangements or patterns – their relations – and it assumes that those relations can be reconstructed from their constituents. But they cannot.
    In contrast, relational biology focuses on the patterns, and sets out to model the transformations of those patterns into other patterns.
    Relational biology uses a branch of mathematics called “category theory”, (first developed in the 1940s), to model pattern transformations. Category theory is a generalization of set theories.
    In set theory elements of one set are transformed to elements of a new set. In category theory, the relations in one category are transformed to new relations in a new category.,,, (All the information required for embryo development is not in the fertilized egg).
    (The transformation of patterns in one cell is transformed into new patterns in a new cell), And neither pattern is specified by DNA. Obviously we have to add information to the system (to explain the new pattern). (And every subsequent transformation of patterns in the cell requires the addition of even more information).
    Now, what is the nature of this information? Generally speaking, I would say that information in embryo development is that which produces form. (In this case we are talking about the form of the membrane pattern). Obviously this information is not material, it is not carried In the original fertilized egg. (Nor is it being added by the water in which the embryo sits). So the information,, is clearly not material. It does not come from matter. So where did the information come from? As a biologist I (simply) can’t tell (you) where the information is coming from. As a Theologian I might say that ultimately, the information (must) come from ‘divine ideas’.”
    Design Beyond DNA: A Conversation with Dr. Jonathan Wells – video (41:00 minute mark) – January 2017
    https://youtu.be/ASAaANVBoiE?t=2424

    Study notes:

    Membrane Patterns Carry Ontogenetic Information That Is Specified Independently of DNA – Jonathan Wells – 2014
    http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/.....O-C.2014.2

    Life Exponential – Jonathan Wells
    https://salvomag.com/article/salvo38/life-exponential

  16. 16
    jerry says:

    There are millions of species. Each has a body plan.

    Where is it?

    Some species have much larger genomes than others. Why?

    It should be possible to do knock out experiments to see what affects body structure if at all.

    Everyone should read “The DNA Delusion” by Stephen Blume to understand why the secrets of life are not in the DNA.

    If you can understand that a 10-kilobyte computer cannot do a job that requires 1,000 terabytes, you will understand what I have to say about DNA

    An engineer should be able to understand what he is saying.

  17. 17
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    The is no body without the blueprint of whole body that include the exact position of every cell of every organ of every system.
    Darwinism got everything wrong and was somehow natural for scientists(who considered darwinism true by default) to make consecutive chained wrong assumptions about DNA . When you start with wrong assumption down the stream everything is wrong.

  18. 18
    martin_r says:

    Jerry @16

    It should be possible to do knock out experiments to see what affects body structure if at all.

    here you go, a 2021 research:

    A new study led by researchers at University of California, Berkeley, and Washington University explored the function of one component of this junk DNA, transposons, which are selfish DNA sequences able to invade their host genome. The study shows that at least one family of transposons — ancient viruses that have invaded our genome by the millions — plays a critical role in viability in the mouse, and perhaps in all mammals. When the researchers knocked out a specific transposon in mice, half their mouse pups died before birth.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211018140504.htm

    of course, it is not entirely what you meant, but obviously, JUNK DNA has something to do with embryo development, and thus, eventually, with body form too …

  19. 19
    martin_r says:

    Jerry, BA77

    There are millions of species. Each has a body plan.

    Where is it?

    BA77, … i think that Mr. Wells is wrong ( and i hate to disagree with Mr. Wells )

    Here is another engineering point of you:

    As an engineer, you have to protect the body form information. As we all know, the data/information in DNA molecule is protected very well, in many ways. The structure of DNA itself is sort of protection/redundancy.
    This is another reason, why i, as an engineer think, that the body form blueprint IS stored in DNA. To think anything else, does not make much sense. To have ‘two storage systems’ – then you need to protect them both – then the whole system becomes more fragile …. i don’t know … does not sound very rational.

    Like i said, we still don’t entirely understand, how a cell is processes all the data … i am pretty sure, that one day, it will be discovered how the body form is defined, and on that day, Darwinism will finally break apart …

  20. 20
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    This is another reason, why i, as an engineer think, that the body form blueprint IS stored in DNA

    How a cell build for example the digestive system ?

  21. 21
    jerry says:

    but obviously, JUNK DNA has something to do with embryo development, and thus, eventually, with body form too

    Does it?

    How many species have “junk DNA?” From what I understand a high percentage don’t. And the type varies by species that do.

    So that would obviously eliminate Junk DNA as the place for this information.

    Read Stephen Blume. It won’t cost you much in time and money.

    “ If you asked a vast majority of well-educated people, “What holds the plans for the human body”, most people would answer, “Our genes hold the plans for our body and all of its parts”. They think our genes form our eyes, brains, skeletons, muscles… Few non-scientists realize that genes are only involved with the construction of proteins. Most biology books and biology professors credit our DNA with the making of all body parts; they must to support evolution. If people found out that genes were not the holder of the human blueprint, nor that of all species, what would that do to the foundation of evolution? It would vanish in a flash.”

    — The DNA Delusion: The Evo-illusion of DNA by Dr. Stephen Blume

    “Consider, for example, your body’s crowning glory, your head. How did the bone cells in your skull know enough to marshal themselves into a dome, while those in your jaw formed a trap-shaped mandible? And how did those on your left side arrange themselves in a mirror image of your right, and how were holes left in just the right places for your eyes? Come to think of it, how did your head wind up at the top of your body, nodding sagely at the end of your neck and spine? … How did that blob-like egg give rise to, say, nerve cells in your fingertips with long filaments to cable signals back toward the spine? What informed them to relay their signals to intermediary nerve cells thereby zapping them with chemicals? What told those cells’ filaments to twine themselves into a cord inside your spine, levitate toward your skull, and send messages into the folds of your brain for interpretation?”

    Everyone should read Stephen Blume’s short books. It would get rid of a lot of nonsense ideas. The two best writers on Evolution are Stephen’s. Stephen Meyer and Stephen Blume.

    I have the kindle edition though I just looked on Amazon and it wasn’t listed.

  22. 22
    bornagain77 says:

    Martin at 19 you state, “i think that Mr. Wells is wrong ( and i hate to disagree with Mr. Wells)” and you also claim “I, “as an engineer think, that the body form blueprint IS stored in DNA,,,”.

    Well Martin, it is not only that you are personally disagreeing with Dr. Wells, it is that you are also disagreeing with the scientific evidence itself. Which. obviously, is far more troublesome for you than merely personally disagreeing with Dr. Wells.

    Although it is dogmatically assumed within the reductive materialistic framework of Darwinian evolution that the ‘blueprint’ of an organism is reducible to DNA, there simply is no experimental evidence that Darwinists can appeal to to prove that the ‘biological form’ of an organism is reducible to DNA. i.e. “A technique called “saturation mutagenesis”1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12. None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans–,,,”

    Response to John Wise – October 2010
    Excerpt: But there are solid empirical grounds for arguing that changes in DNA alone cannot produce new organs or body plans. A technique called “saturation mutagenesis”1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12. None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans–,,,
    (As Jonathan Wells states),,, We can modify the DNA of a fruit fly embryo in any way we want, and there are only three possible outcomes:
    A normal fruit fly;
    A defective fruit fly; or
    A dead fruit fly.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....38811.html

    Jonathan Wells: Far from being all-powerful, DNA does not wholly determine biological form – March 31, 2014
    Excerpt: Studies using saturation mutagenesis in the embryos of fruit flies, roundworms, zebrafish and mice also provide evidence against the idea that DNA specifies the basic form of an organism. Biologists can mutate (and indeed have mutated) a fruit fly embryo in every possible way, and they have invariably observed only three possible outcomes: a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly.
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/jonathan-wells-far-from-being-all-powerful-dna-does-not-wholly-determine-biological-form/

    Moreover, as Dr. Wells has now also shown, the “central dogma” neo-Darwinism, the belief that “DNA makes RNA makes protein makes us”, (i.e. ‘the blueprint model’), is now found to fail at every step.

    Membrane Patterns Carry Ontogenetic Information That Is Specified Independently of DNA – Jonathan Wells
    Excerpt (Conclusion and Implications): If “makes” is taken to mean “specifies,” then “DNA makes RNA makes protein” fails at each step.,,,
    Thomas Cavalier-Smith, the idea that the genome contains all the information needed to make an organism “is simply false. Membrane heredity, by providing chemically specific two-dimensional surfaces with mutually conserved topological relationships in the three spatial dimensions, plays a key role in the mechanisms that convert the linear information of DNA into the three-dimensional shapes of single cells and multicellular organisms” [403].
    https://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2014.2/BIO-C.2014.2

    Design Beyond DNA: A Conversation with Dr. Jonathan Wells – video (14:36 minute mark) – January 2017
    https://youtu.be/ASAaANVBoiE?t=876

    And Dr. Wells is far from the only person who has found the central dogma of the modern synthesis, i.e. Neo-Darwinism, (i.e. ‘the blueprint model’), to be in direct conflict with the scientific evidence. As far as the scientific evidence itself is concerned. i.e. ,,, “DNA cannot be seen as the ‘blueprint’ for life,”

    “DNA cannot be seen as the ‘blueprint’ for life,”
    DNA may not be life’s instruction book—just a jumbled list of ingredients – Kimbra Cutlip, University of Maryland – APRIL 22, 2020
    Excerpt: The common view of heredity is that all information passed down from one generation to the next is stored in an organism’s DNA. But Antony Jose, associate professor of cell biology and molecular genetics at the University of Maryland, disagrees.
    In two new papers, Jose argues that DNA is just the ingredient list, not the set of instructions used to build and maintain a living organism.,,,
    ,,, “DNA cannot be seen as the ‘blueprint’ for life,” Jose said. “It is at best an overlapping and potentially scrambled list of ingredients that is used differently by different cells at different times.”
    ,,, In addition, scientists are unable to determine the complex shape of an organ such as an eye, or that a creature will have eyes at all, by reading the creature’s DNA. These fundamental aspects of anatomy are dictated by something outside of the DNA.
    https://phys.org/news/2020-04-dna-life-bookjust-jumbled-ingredients.html

    (Paul) Davies And Walker On Origin Of Life: Life As Information – March 7, 2020
    Excerpt: However, the genome is only a small part of the story. DNA is not a blueprint for an organism:1 no information is actively processed by DNA alone [17]. Rather, DNA is a (mostly) passive repository for transcription of stored data into RNA, some (but by no means all) of which goes on to be translated into proteins. The biologically relevant information stored in DNA therefore has very little to do with its specific chemical nature (beyond the fact that it is a digital linear polymer).
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/davies-and-walker-on-origin-of-life-life-as-information/

    Intelligent Design and the Advancement of Science – Brian Miller – December 11, 2017
    Excerpt: DNA was expected to be the primary source of causality behind the operation and development of life. Such beliefs have previously raised concerns from leading scientists and mathematicians. For instance, physicist Walter Elsasser argued that the unfathomable complexity of the chemical and physically processes in life was “transcomputational” — beyond the realm of any theoretical means of computation. Moreover, the development of the embryo is not solely directed by DNA. Instead, it requires new “biotonic” principles. As a result, life cannot be reduced to chemistry and physics. An unbridgeable gap separates life from non-life.
    Similarly, mathematician René Thom argued that the 3D patterns of tissues in an organism’s development from egg to birth and their continuous transformation cannot be understood in terms of isolating the individual proteins generated by DNA and other molecules produced in cells. The problem is that the individual “parts” composing tissues and organs only take on the right form and function in the environment of those tissues and organs. More recent work by Denis Noble further has elucidated how every level of the biological hierarchy affects every other level, from DNA to tissues to the entire organism. Based partly on these insights, Thom concluded in his book Structural Stability and Morphogenesis that the process of development should be thought of as being controlled by an “algebraic structure outside space-time itself” (p. 119). Likewise, Robert Rosen argued that life can only be understood as a mathematical abstraction consisting of functional relationships, irreducible to mechanistic processes. He observed that life is fundamentally different from simple physics and chemistry. It embodies the Aristotelian category of final causation, which is closely related to the idea of purpose. The conclusions of these scholars challenge materialistic philosophy at its core.
    https://evolutionnews.org/2017/12/intelligent-design-and-the-advancement-of-science/

  23. 23
    bornagain77 says:

    DNA is life’s blueprint? No, there’s far more to it than that – 10 June 2015
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630251-000-dna-is-lifes-blueprint-no-theres-far-more-to-it-than-that/

    The Types: A Persistent Structuralist Challenge to Darwinian Pan-Selectionism – Michael J. Denton – 2013
    Excerpt: Cell form ,,, Karsenti comments that despite the attraction of the (genetic) blueprint model there are no “simple linear chains of causal events that link genes to phenotypes” [77: p. 255]. And wherever there is no simple linear causal chain linking genes with phenotypes,,,—at any level in the organic hierarchy, from cells to body plans—the resulting form is bound to be to a degree epigenetic and emergent, and cannot be inferred from even the most exhaustive analysis of the genes.,,,
    To this author’s knowledge, to date the form of no individual cell has been shown to be specified in detail in a genomic blueprint. As mentioned above, between genes and mature cell form there is a complex hierarchy of self-organization and emergent phenomena, rendering cell form profoundly epigenetic.
    http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/.....O-C.2013.3

    Does the central dogma still stand? – Koonin EV. – 23 August 2012
    Excerpt: Thus, there is non-negligible flow of information from proteins to the genome in modern cells, in a direct violation of the Central Dogma of molecular biology. The prion-mediated heredity that violates the Central Dogma appears to be a specific, most radical manifestation of the widespread assimilation of protein (epigenetic) variation into genetic variation. The epigenetic variation precedes and facilitates genetic adaptation through a general ‘look-ahead effect’ of phenotypic mutations.,,,
    Conclusions:
    The Central Dogma of molecular biology is refuted by genetic assimilation of prion-dependent phenotypic heredity. This phenomenon is likely to be the tip of the proverbial iceberg,,,
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....MC3472225/

    DNA Is Not a Blueprint: How Genes Really Work – Aug 08, 2012
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dna-is-not-a-blueprint-ho_b_1578336

    etc.. etc.. etc..

    Shoot, DNA does not even determine what the shape of its genome may take, thus, obviously, much less can DNA possibly explain the overarching biological form that any organism may take.

    Specifically, the spatial organization of genomes is now found to be ‘context dependent’ depending on which tissue the genome may be in. i.e. “Our results demonstrate that the spatial organization of genomes is tissue-specific and point to a role for tissue-specific spatial genome organization in the formation of recurrent chromosome arrangements among tissues.”

    Tissue-specific spatial organization of genomes – June 21, 2004
    Results
    Using two-dimensional and three-dimensional fluorescence in situ hybridization we have carried out a systematic analysis of the spatial positioning of a subset of mouse chromosomes in several tissues. We show that chromosomes exhibit tissue-specific organization. Chromosomes are distributed tissue-specifically with respect to their position relative to the center of the nucleus and also relative to each other. Subsets of chromosomes form distinct types of spatial clusters in different tissues and the relative distance between chromosome pairs varies among tissues. Consistent with the notion that nonrandom spatial proximity is functionally relevant in determining the outcome of chromosome translocation events, we find a correlation between tissue-specific spatial proximity and tissue-specific translocation prevalence.
    Conclusions
    Our results demonstrate that the spatial organization of genomes is tissue-specific and point to a role for tissue-specific spatial genome organization in the formation of recurrent chromosome arrangements among tissues.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC463291/

    Moreover, in direct contradiction to ‘the blueprint model’, in the following article Dr. Jonathan Wells states, “I now know as an embryologist,,,Tissues and cells, as they differentiate, modify their DNA to suit their needs. It’s the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism.”

    Ask an Embryologist: Genomic Mosaicism – Jonathan Wells – February 23, 2015
    Excerpt: humans have a “few thousand” different cell types. Here is my simple question: Does the DNA sequence in one cell type differ from the sequence in another cell type in the same person?,,,
    The simple answer is: We now know that there is considerable variation in DNA sequences among tissues, and even among cells in the same tissue. It’s called genomic mosaicism.
    In the early days of developmental genetics, some people thought that parts of the embryo became different from each other because they acquired different pieces of the DNA from the fertilized egg. That theory was abandoned,,,
    ,,,(then) “genomic equivalence” — the idea that all the cells of an organism (with a few exceptions, such as cells of the immune system) contain the same DNA — became the accepted view.
    I taught genomic equivalence for many years. A few years ago, however, everything changed. With the development of more sophisticated techniques and the sampling of more tissues and cells, it became clear that genetic mosaicism is common.
    I now know as an embryologist,,,Tissues and cells, as they differentiate, modify their DNA to suit their needs. It’s the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....93851.html

    Likewise, researchers, from Princeton University no less, express their amazement that, “It is hard not to be impressed how a repeatable form reliably emerges despite considerable variation in both genes and environment.”

    Criticality in morphogenesis – September 17, 2013
    Excerpt: In many regards, a brief time-lapse video can teach more about embryonic development than any amount of reading. It is hard not to be impressed how a repeatable form reliably emerges despite considerable variation in both genes and environment. While it had been hoped that concepts borrowed from statistical mechanics or the ideas of self-organized criticality could help to create some kind of physics-based theory of development, much of what has been done lies only at the level of metaphor. In a paper just released to ArXiv, William Bialek and his colleagues from Princeton University, have taken their search for the signature of criticality in a more specific direction. They looked at a particular set of transcription factors in Drosophila embryos which control spatiotemporal development. By analyzing fluctuations in the expression levels of these so-called gap genes, they found evidence for critical (fine) tuning in this particular network.
    http://phys.org/news/2013-09-c.....nesis.html

  24. 24
    bornagain77 says:

    Perhaps the clearest experimental demonstration that DNA cannot possibly be the ‘blueprint’ of the biological form of an organism is the following.

    in the following article it is noted that, “Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern.”

    What Do Organisms Mean? Stephen L. Talbott – Winter 2011
    Excerpt: Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern. Lewontin went on to remark: “Unlike a machine whose totality is created by the juxtaposition of bits and pieces with different functions and properties, the bits and pieces of a developing organism seem to come into existence as a consequence of their spatial position at critical moments in the embryo’s development. Such an object is less like a machine than it is like a language whose elements… take unique meaning from their context.[3]”,,,
    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/.....nisms-mean

    Again to repeat, “the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern.”

    Along that line of experimental evidence is this personal testimony from a UD blogger,

    “Last year I had a fair chunk of my nose removed in skin cancer surgery (Mohs). The surgeon took flesh from a nearby area to fill in the large hole he’d made. The pictures of it were scary. But in the healing process the replanted cells somehow ‘knew’ how to take a different shape appropriate for the new location so that the nose now looks remarkably natural. The doctor said he could take only half the credit because the cells somehow know how to change form for a different location (though they presumably still follow the same DNA code) . — I’m getting the feeling that we’ve been nearly as reductionist in the 20-21st century as Darwin and his peers were when they viewed cells as little blobs of jelly.”
    – leodp – UD blogger

    Moreover, in the following study, “researchers implanted human embryonic neuronal cells into a mouse embryo”.,,, Yet, “the human neurons, despite having human DNA, had a mouse morphology”. If DNA really ruled morphology, we would have expected a human morphology.

    If DNA really rules (morphology), why did THIS happen? – April 2014
    Excerpt: Researchers implanted human embryonic neuronal cells into a mouse embryo. Mouse and human neurons have distinct morphologies (shapes). Because the human neurons feature human DNA, they should be easy to identify.
    Which raises a question: Would the human neurons implanted in developing mouse brain have a mouse or a human morphology?
    Well, the answer is, the human neurons had a mouse morphology. They could be distinguished from the mouse ones only by their human genetic markers.
    If DNA really ruled, we would expect a human morphology.
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....is-happen/

    So Martin, is not that we just don’t know how the ‘blueprint’ is specified in DNA and that someday we will possibly figure it out, It is that we now know, ‘experimentally speaking’, that the ‘blueprint’ for an organism cannot possibly be stored in the DNA. PERIOD!

    As the old joke goes, ‘you can’t get there from here’.

    Moreover, (as if the preceding was not already bad enough for reductive materialism), the failure of the reductive materialistic framework of Darwinian evolution to be able to explain the basic form, i.e. ‘blueprint’, of any particular organism is now mathematically proven, via Godel’s incompleteness, to occur at a very low level. Much lower than DNA itself.

    In the following article entitled ‘Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics’, which studied the derivation of macroscopic properties from a complete microscopic description, the researchers remark that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, The researchers further commented that their findings challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.”

    Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics – December 9, 2015
    Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,,
    It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,,
    “We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s,” added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. “So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.”
    http://phys.org/news/2015-12-q.....godel.html

    Moreover, advances in quantum mechanics and quantum biology also now experimentally prove that all the information needed to specify the ‘biological form’ of an organism cannot possibly be stored in DNA, (nor can it be stored in any of the other biomolecules of life).

    Specifically, it is now known that classical information, such as the information encoded on DNA, is a subset of quantum information.

    In explaining this, it is first necessary to elucidate some background.

    In the following site entitled “Quantum Information Science”, a site where Charles Bennett, (of quantum teleportation and reversible computation fame), himself is on the steering committee,

    Quantum Information Science
    Steering Committee
    C. H. Bennett IBM
    D. P. DiVincenzo IBM
    N. Gershenfeld MIT
    H. M. Gibbs University of Arizona
    H. J. Kimble Caltech
    J. Preskill Caltech
    U. V. Vazirani UC/Berkeley
    D. J. Wineland NIST
    C. Yao Princeton University
    https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/nsf00101.htm

    On that site, they have an illustration showing classical information to be a subset of quantum information. Underneath the illustration they state, “The well-established theory of classical information and computation is actually a subset of a much larger topic, the emerging theory of quantum information and computation.”

    Classical Information is a subset of Quantum information – illustration
    https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/images/figure1.gif
    below that illustration they have this caption,
    “Figure 1: The well-established theory of classical information and computation is actually a subset of a much larger topic, the emerging theory of quantum information and computation.”

    And as Charles Bennett states in this following lecture, ““Entanglement is ubiquitous: Almost every interaction between two systems creates entanglement between them… Most systems in nature… interact so strongly with the environment as to become entangled with it almost immediately.”… 44:00 minute mark: “A classical communications channel is a quantum communication channel with an eavesdropper (maybe only the environment)… A classical computer is a quantum computer handicapped by having eavesdroppers on all its wires.”

    Information is Quantum – Charles Bennett – video
    39:30 minute mark: “Entanglement is ubiquitous: Almost every interaction between two systems creates entanglement between them… Most systems in nature… interact so strongly with the environment as to become entangled with it almost immediately.”… 44:00 minute mark: “A classical communications channel is a quantum communication channel with an eavesdropper (maybe only the environment)… A classical computer is a quantum computer handicapped by having eavesdroppers on all its wires.”
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/philip-cunningham-offers-information-is-quantum/

    And indeed the classical information in DNA, (which you, Martin, hold to contain the ‘blueprint’ of an organism), is now found to be embedded within a ‘cacoon’ of this larger matrix of quantum information.

    in the following video Dr Rieper states, “What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information,,,”

    “What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.”
    Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it)
    https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176

    Also see, “Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules” 2015, and “Quantum Critical Proteins” – 2018 – Stuart Lindsay – Professor of Physics and Chemistry at Arizona State University

  25. 25
    bornagain77 says:

    In fact, (in direct contradiction to the reductive materialist’s ‘blueprint model’), Quantum Entanglement and/or Quantum Information is now found to be what gives DNA its helical structure, i.e. to be what give DNA its ‘form’;

    Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010
    Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford.
    http://neshealthblog.wordpress.....blueprint/

    The thing that is so devastating for the reductive materialistic framework of Darwinists, besides the fact that it is quantum information that is determining the helical ‘form’ of DNA, is that it takes a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause in order to explain quantum entanglement and/or quantum information,

    As the following paper entitled “Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory” succinctly stated, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”

    Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012
    Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
    http://www.quantumlah.org/high.....uences.php

    Darwinian atheists, with their reductive materialistic framework, and especially with the falsification of Einstein’s ‘hidden variables’, simply have no beyond space and time cause that they can appeal so as to be able to explain the non-local quantum coherence and/or quantum information that is now found to be ubiquitous within biology.

    “hidden variables don’t exist. If you have proved them come back with PROOF and a Nobel Prize.
    John Bell theorized that maybe the particles can signal faster than the speed of light. This is what he advocated in his interview in “The Ghost in the Atom.” But the violation of Leggett’s inequality in 2007 takes away that possibility and rules out all non-local hidden variables. Observation instantly defines what properties a particle has and if you assume they had properties before we measured them, then you need evidence, because right now there is none which is why realism is dead, and materialism dies with it.
    How does the particle know what we are going to pick so it can conform to that?”
    per Jimfit
    https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/quantum-physicist-david-bohm-on-why-there-cannot-be-a-theory-of-everything/#comment-662358

    Whereas on the other hand, Christians readily do have a beyond space and time cause that they can appeal to so as to explain quantum entanglement and/or quantum information. As Colossians 1:17 states, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Shoot, the beginning of John, i.e. John 1:1-4, is also directly relevant to this line of scientific evidence of finding ‘non-local’ quantum information to be ubiquitous within life.

    John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    One final note, it is also important to realize that quantum information, unlike classical information, is ‘conserved’. As the following article states, In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – 2011
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....tally.html

    The implication of finding ‘non-local’, (beyond space and time), and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created nor destroyed), quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious.
    That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, “the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”

    Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe – Oct. 19, 2017 – Spiritual
    Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
    – Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark) (of note, this video is no longer available for public viewing)
    https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/10/life-after-death-soul-science-morgan-freeman/

    Personally, I consider these recent findings from quantum biology to rival all other scientific discoveries over the past century. Surpassing even the discovery of a beginning of the universe, via Big Bang cosmology, in terms of scientific, theological, and even personal, significance.

    As Jesus once asked his disciples, along with a crowd of followers, “Is anything worth more than your soul?”

    Verse:

    Mark 8:37
    Is anything worth more than your soul?

  26. 26
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    @Martin_r
    Being engineer could you try to build a scenario to translate what happens in the next video into comparable engineering processes ?

    General Embryology Review in 20 minutes

  27. 27
    martin_r says:

    LCD @26
    yes, i watched lots of videos on fertilization before, it is just amazing. I don’t understand, how any rational person can think that these irreducible complex processes evolved by some blind unguided process. It is just insane …

    And, i can’t imagine how this can be compared to anything human made. In the first place, i can’t imagine any FULLY AUTOMATED, FULLY AUTONOMOUS process engineered by humans, that would last to work for hundred of years, let alone for thousands or millions of years … (without any intervention)

    PS:
    BA77, please give my some time to read through your links … i still think, that my DNA proofreading/repair/redundancy argument is very strong in respect to body form information protection, but i definitely will have a look at your links.

  28. 28
    martin_r says:

    LCD

    How a cell build for example the digestive system ?

    Digestive system or any other part of human body is made of specific cells (cell differentiation). Good analogy would be LEGO bricks. Each cell/Lego brick knows where to go, what is its position in human body. A cell is a very advanced Lego brick. Of course, when you play Lego, you know where to put the particular Lego brick. The question is, and that is the whole debate about, in biology, how a Lego brick (a cell) knows WHERE to go AND WHEN (and what type of brick). Of course, it is more complicated, because human body is a very advanced Lego kit, when you consider, that after e.g. a circulatory system is assembled (all the veins/pipes), you also need to fill it with fluids (e.g. blood). From engineering point of you, this is just amazing.

  29. 29
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Of course, when you play Lego, you know where to put the particular Lego brick.

    Your lego example it’s interesting but doesn’t help too much because you are outside of pieces of lego (cells) ,not inside pieces so you use your eyes ,spatial geometry and intelligence from OUTSIDE and you have already in mind the plan/ blueprint . How would you building your lego model being inside of one of the piece(cell) and you don’t have access to an external spatial perspective required to build something? :))

  30. 30
    martin_r says:

    LCD,

    Your lego example it’s interesting but doesn’t help too much because you are outside of pieces of lego (cells) ,not inside pieces so you use your eyes ,spatial geometry and intelligence from OUTSIDE and you have already in mind the plan/ blueprint

    This is wrong. A cell is a fully autonomous stand-alone system. It is a very advanced ‘lego brick’ technology, no ‘outside intervention’ is required, exactly this is how it differs from common human thinking and approach.

    A CELL KNOWS WHAT TO DO – it reads the software stored in cell’s nucleus. It is a very smart Lego brick.

    Just keep in mind – first you have 1 lego brick, then 2 lego bricks and so on … all these lego bricks know what to do and where to go. This is an entirely different engineering approach how to build things, we humans are not used to, it is beyond our comprehension. We designed 3D printers to mimic this process a bit, but a 3D printer is a child play compared to a cell.

    So like i said, no “outside intervention” is required to build e.g. a human body. That is why i call it an engineering SCI-FI. If you would figure out, how this is done, i am sure that: 1. you get a Nobel 2. you will be very rich (various patents).

    Believe me, I thinking of it every day, how this is done.

    A time ago, I watched a time laps zebra fish development video, but i can’t see any pattern … There are some many cells in zebra fish, that you get lost very quick watching the video.

    If there would be a species with only a few cells (like hundred), perhaps that would help, easier to follow …

    In any case, this is an engineering marvel …

    Moreover, it is obvious, that the development process is not that straight forward, look at this video:

    when you want to assemble a human hand – fingers – you also have to REMOVE some ‘lego bricks’ that you have used earlier (in the video it is called ‘notch between digital rays’)

    at 0:43

    https://youtu.be/VpbdqGJ9LWk?t=43

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