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Phil Skell’s first post – thanking Prof. Davison and Joseph and greetings to all

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Thanks to Prof. Davison and Joseph for stirring the embers left from the conflagration generated a year ago with the publication of my two essays in The Scientist, and for calling my attention to the renewed discussion.
 
I invite the new participants to do what, thus far, none of the earlier critics have yet done, to set forth a published paper containing experimental results, in which there is a clear heuristic connection to Darwinian Principles that served to guide that experimental work to its goal.
 
Conclusions from my earlier writing:
 
Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology. This becomes especially clear when we compare it with a heuristic framework such as the atomic model, which opens up structural chemistry and leads to advances in the synthesis of a multitude of new molecules of practical benefit.None of this demonstrates that Darwinism is false. It does, however, mean that the claim that it is the cornerstone of modern experimental biology will be met with quiet skepticism from a growing number of scientists in fields where theories actually do serve as cornerstones for tangible breakthroughs.

Note: Phil asked Denyse to post this for him because he is half as bad with blogger software as Denyse, but Denyse invents much more creative excuses for her technical shortcomings. Take it away, Phil!

Here is Phil’s key article in The Scientist , free.

Comments
jpark320, you stated: "Those examples are trying to use molecular biology to support evolution, they are NOT examples of evolution supporting/helping molecular biology research" I disagree. Dr. Skell's main assertion, quoting from above, is that "Darwinian evolution–whatever its other virtues–does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology" In my opinion, a fruitful heuristic is one that is generative of new hypotheses that can subsequently be assessed experimentally, thereby broadening and enriching the scope of biology, and, most importantly, broadening the scope of our scientific understanding of nature in general. Such experiments are not simply "in support of evolution" so much as in support of further scientific knowledge. That is experimental biology. I fail to see how evolution does not meet Dr. Skell's "fruitful heuristic" criteria. It has undeniably lead to thousands of questions and associated biological experiments that would otherwise not have been performed, and, as a consequence, to knowledge that would otherwise not have been obtained. I suspect Dr. Skell's concept of experimental biology is narrowed in such a way that evolutionarily-inspired experiments falls outside its range. If so, why?great_ape
October 8, 2006
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j.a. davision: "There is no evidence that any cellular organelle ever had a precursor simpler than itself. that includes mitochondria (they are not symbiotic bacteria)," In the case of mitochondria, Dr. davison, the evidence, quite simply, is that the mitochondrial genome, which looks and replicates like a bacterial genome, genetically resembles a specific lineage of prokaryotes more closely than it does any eukaryote or any other bacteria lineage. I'm not sure how this doesn't count as evidence to you, but I'd be willing to listen.great_ape
October 8, 2006
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Mats, whoever that is. Just what is wrong with religious motivations? They don't irradiate anyway and sence is not an English word. Your last sentense is not a question either. You are beautiful. It is hard to believe isn't it? I love it so! "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
October 8, 2006
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Clearly the religious motivations of Dr Skell irradiate from his article. I am the only one to sence them?Mats
October 8, 2006
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Well come on Darwimps. I am not getting any younger and neither is Phil Skell. I enjoy this silence. I have grown used to it. I love it so! "A past evoluti0n is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
October 8, 2006
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There is no evidence that any cellular organelle ever had a precursor simpler than itself. that includes mitochondria (they are not symbiotic bacteria), the centriole, the centromere, the nuclear membrane, the bacterial flagellum, the eukaryotic flagellum, the cell membrane, the nuclear membrane, microtubules, the prokaryotic chromosome, etc etc. I am sure I left out many others. As yet another of my challenges, none of which ever been answered, show me a single intracellular organelle that ever "evolved" from a simpler precursor with the possible exception of the eukaryotic chromosome. Have fun. It is hard to believe isn't it? I love it so! "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
October 8, 2006
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Art2: Google search term for the weekend - fosmidomycin. The link between the development of this drug (and its chemical relatives) and our understanding of the evolutionary origins of organelles and kingdoms is pretty undeniable. And a durned interesting one to boot. What does the alleged origin of organelles have to do with what Dr Skell posted? Is it an example of Darwinian evolution? No. Perhaps that is what YOU need to figure out for yourself- that is what is being discussed.Joseph
October 8, 2006
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Sorry great_ape and you too Bob OH. Creatures appeared preadapted and ready to go. There is not a single example of a new species aquiring subsequent adaptive features. Instead, the exact opposite is what has happened as typically, after a period of flourishing (typostasis), orthogenetic lines began the process of decay (typolysis) leading invariably to ultimate extinction often of whole orders of animals such as the trilobites, the giant amphibians of the past, the dinosaurs and the mammalian titanotheres. Schindewolf's typogenesis is a phenomenon of the past. Even typostasis is in question as many creatures are so specialized that they are unable to undergo adaptation to a changing environment. Furthermore, the changes that are occurring such as insecticide resistance are not evolutionary but phasic and reversible. The fossil record is the history of extinction as group after group came and went leaving no descendants. Let me list once again those factors which not only had nothing to do with creative evolution, but were in fact anti-evolutionary, serving only temporarily to preseve the status quo. 1. Mendelian genetics including population genetics. 2. Sexual reproduction. 3. Allelic mutation. 4. Natural selection. Creative evolution implemented other means to create new life forms, means that were prescribed in the genomes of those relatively few creatures that were capable of leaving descendents drastically different from themselves. Such creatures apparently no longer exist. I have identified one possible such mechanism with the Semi-meiotic Hypothesis (SMH) which still, 22 years later, has yet to be tested with suitable experimental material. Darwinians don't do experiments any more as they are convinced they already have all the answers. Not a single laboratory experiment has ever supported the Darwinian fantasy and fantasy is exactly what it has always been. They no longer do experiments. They are afraid to! The entire Darwinian paradigm is an illusion drive by the faulty initial assumption that phylogeny had an external cause. Such a cause cannot be identified because it never existed. Such a cause also never existed for ontogeny which provides the perfect model for creative evolution. Both ontogeny and phylogeny resulted from the controlled derepression of endogenous contained information which had been front-loaded eons ago by one or more entities far beyond our present capacity to comprehend. Only ontogeny remains. "Neither in the one nor in the other is there room for chance" Leo Berg, Nomogenesis, page 134 "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
October 8, 2006
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From some of the work done in Helsinki: Hanski, I., Erälahti, C., Kankare, M., Ovaskainen, O. & Sirén, H. 2004. Variation in migration propensity among individuals maintained by landscape structure. Ecology Letters 7, 958-966 and Hanski, I., Saastamoinen, M. & Ovaskainen, O. 2006. Dispersal-related life-history trade-offs in a butterfly metapopulation. Journal of Animal Ecology 75: 91-100. The impetus for this woek was to understand the population dynamics of the butterfly, and what influences it. From this they got the idea about looking for trade-offs, an idea which springs from evolutionary theory. So, as you can see, they did some experiments. BobBob OH
October 8, 2006
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When I follow the links to Dr. Skell's article or the letters I find I have to subscribe to Science before I can read them. Am I missing something? (When I follow the link to the continuing discussion I get an internal server error)Mark Frank
October 8, 2006
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Google search term for the weekend - fosmidomycin. The link between the development of this drug (and its chemical relatives) and our understanding of the evolutionary origins of organelles and kingdoms is pretty undeniable. And a durned interesting one to boot. Sorry I haven't posted papers or links. Part of the fun of this particular subject is figuring this out for yourself. After awhile, and a few questions, I may add some specific papers that help to spell things out. But for now, Google away. (Better yet, dive into PubMed.) Enjoy.Art2
October 7, 2006
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jpark320 // Oct 7th 2006 at 11:02 pm Did you guys mean to advertise “The God that Never Existed” documentary? I’d be surprised if that were the case. Comment by jpark320 — October 7, 2006 @ 11:02 pm Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but Uncommondescent does not control the Google Banner Ads on their site.russ
October 7, 2006
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Nice work Dr. Skell, I wonder if he had major problems like Dr. Davison. @ Greatape Those examples are trying to use molecular biology to support evolution, they are NOT examples of evolution supporting/helping molecular biology research. Btw: Did you guys mean to advertise "The God that Never Existed" documentary? I'd be surprised if that were the case.jpark320
October 7, 2006
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A quote from Dr. Skell's response letter, "Evolution is not an observable characteristic of living organisms. What modern experimental biologists study are the mechanisms by which living organisms maintain their stability, without evolving. Organisms oscillate about a median state; and if they deviate significantly from that state, they die. It has been research on these mechanisms of stability, not research guided by Darwin's theory, which has produced the major fruits of modern biology and medicine. And so I ask again: Why do we invoke Darwin?" Dr. Skell, it is an honor, and rather Good timing. You will get no disagreement from me. Rather, a thanks for your kindness and patience in answering questions in the past. And also directing me to Apoptosis, or programmed cell death... A PLoS September article research of Apoptosis; entitled, "Mathematical Modeling Identifies Inhibitors of Apoptosis as Mediators of Positive Feedback and Bistability". full article: http://compbiol.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pcbi.0020120 includes a nice schematic(fig1a) and kinetic scheme(fig 1b): http://compbiol.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=slideshow&type=figure&doi=10.1371/journal.pcbi.0020120&id=62785 and fig 1b associated reaction table: http://compbiol.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=slideshow&type=table&doi=10.1371/journal.pcbi.0020120&id=8971 from the opening paragraph... "Finally, known regulators of the pathway are shown to efficiently shift the apoptotic threshold stimulus, suggesting that the bistable caspase cascade computes multiple inputs into an all-or-none caspase output." And synopsis, "By modelling the signaling pathways involved in the initiation of apoptosis, the authors provide insight into how cells prevent spontaneous apoptosis, but yet efficiently enter cell death, once proapoptotic signals exceed a threshold. The simulations also explain how cells accurately translate a complex set of pro- and anti-apoptotic signals into a life-or-death decision."Michaels7
October 7, 2006
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The following short list of publications comes to mind; at least in these cases, evolutionary theory and experimental biology are intimately connected. These took me about five seconds to come up with, so there are more--and no doubt better-- examples than these. The way I see it, without darwinian theory many modern experimental questions would simply not occur. I was always taught that the generation of interesting and empirically approachable questions was a *good* thing for science. Maybe that's just a crazy idea that has infected us youngsters. Perhaps the following won't be considered important enough, but at least they give something to think about. At the very least, they demonstrate that darwinian theory is not completely sterile in terms of inspiring experimental biology. Rice WR. Sexually antagonistic male adaptation triggered by experimental arrest of female evolution. Nature. 1996 May 16;381(6579):232-4. Rokyta DR, Joyce P, Caudle SB, Wichman HA. An empirical test of the mutational landscape model of adaptation using a single-stranded DNA virus. Nat Genet. 2005 Apr;37(4):441-4. Epub 2005 Mar 20. Am Nat. 2006 Feb;167(2):E39-51. Epub 2005 Dec 12. Evolutionary Feedback Mediated through Population Density, Illustrated with Viruses in Chemostats. Mol Biol Evol. 2002 Sep;19(9):1483-9. Recreating a functional ancestral archosaur visual pigment. Chang BS, Jonsson K, Kazmi MA, Donoghue MJ, Sakmar TP.great_ape
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