Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Please Take the Time to Understand Our Arguments Before You Attack Them

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The comments our Darwinist friends put up on this site never cease to amaze.  Consider, as a for instance, Kantian Naturalist’s comment that appears as comment 9 to kairosfocus’ Infographic: The science of ID post.  The post sets forth a simple summary of the case for ID, and KN responds: 

What I like about this infographic is that it makes really clear where the problem with intelligent design lies.

Here’s the argument:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs. (2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects. (3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs.

But this is invalid, because the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

KN has been posting on this site for years.  He is obviously an intelligent man.  He is obviously a man of good will.  I will assume, therefore, that he is attacking ID as he believes it to be and not a straw man caricature of his own making.  And that is what is so amazing.  How can an intelligent person of good will follow this site for several years and still not understand the basics of ID?  It beggars belief. 

Maybe it will help if I explain ID using the same formal structure KN has used. 

KN:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs.

ID as it really is:

(1)  For all As whose provenance is actually known, the cause of A was B. 

Here “A” could be complex specified information or irreducible complexity.

B, of course, stands for “the act of an intelligent agent.”

In step 1 KN is actually not far off the mark.  I have reworded it slightly, because ID does not posit there is no possible explanation for A other than B.  ID posits that in our universal experience of A where its provenance has been actually observed, it has always arisen from B.  Now, there may be some other cause of A (Neo-Darwinian evolution – NDE – for instance), but the conclusion that NDE causes A arises from an inference not an observation.  “NDE caused A” is not just any old inference.  We would argue that it is an inference skewed by an a priori commitment to metaphysical materialism and not necessarily an unbiased evaluation of the data.  

KN:

(2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects.

ID as it really is:

(2)  We observe A to exist within living systems. 

In (2) KN starts to go off the rails in a serious way.  Here we have the tired old “ID is nothing by an argument from analogy” argument.  KN is saying that the complex specified information in a cell is “similar in relevant respects” to the complex specified information found, for example, in a language or a code.  He is saying that the irreducible complexity of any number of biological systems is “similar in relevant respects” to the irreducible complexity of machines. 

No sir.  That is not what ID posits at all, not even close.  ID posits that the complex specified information in a cell is identical to the complex specified information of a computer code.  The DNA code is not “like” a computer code.  The DNA code and a computer code are two manifestations of the same thing.  The irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is identical to (not similar to) the irreducible complexity of an outboard motor.  

ID proponents obviously have the burden of demonstrating their claims.  For example, they have the burden of demonstrating that the DNA code and a computer code are identical in relevant respects.  And if you disagree with their conclusions that is fair enough.  Tell us why.  But it is not fair to attempt to refute ID by attacking a claim ID proponents do not make.

KN:

(3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs. 

ID as it really is:

(3)  Therefore, abductive reasoning leads to the conclusion that B is the best explanation of A. 

The Wikipedia article on abductive reasoning is quite good.  [I have changed the symbols to correspond with our discussion]: 

to abduce a hypothetical explanation “B” from an observed surprising circumstance “A” is to surmise that “B” may be true because then “A” would be a matter of course. Thus, to abduce B from A involves determining that B is sufficient (or nearly sufficient), but not necessary, for A.

For example, the lawn is wet. But if it rained last night, then it would be unsurprising that the lawn is wet. Therefore, by abductive reasoning, the possibility that it rained last night is reasonable. . . . abducing rain last night from the observation of the wet lawn can lead to a false conclusion. In this example, dew, lawn sprinklers, or some other process may have resulted in the wet lawn, even in the absence of rain.

[Philosopher Charles Sanders] Peirce argues that good abductive reasoning from A to B involves not simply a determination that, e.g., B is sufficient for A, but also that B is among the most economical explanations for A. Simplification and economy call for the ‘leap’ of abduction.

For what seems like the ten thousandth time:  ID does not posit that the existence of complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures within living systems compels “act of an intelligent agent” as a matter of logical necessity.  ID posits that given our universal experience concerning complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures where the provenance of such has been actually observed, the best explanation of the existence of these same things in living structures is “act of intelligent agent.” 

KN, I hope this helps.  If you disagree with any of the premises or the abuction that we say follows from the premises, by all means attack them with abandon.  But please don’t attack an argument we do not make.  That just wastes everyone’s time. 

 

 

 

Comments
#492 Phinehas
3) If you are merely saying that (based on your own narrow view of empiricism), ID does not qualify as science any more than Darwinism does because, in principle, no study of an historical nature can really be empirical, then OK? So what?
True -- no "empirically supported solution" as per #471. No observed evidence for historical studies (for forensics, etc). Neuroscience would not be empirically based either. No one can observe a thought or an imagination or an idea.Silver Asiatic
October 18, 2013
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#494 Brent I would appreciate it if you would show the problem. I didn't quite get it reading the text.Silver Asiatic
October 18, 2013
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RDF, I was going to drop this, but . . . My quote of Meyer @477 you just dismissed @478 in your usual fashion, acting as if it doesn't apply to your argument. That dismissal was a sham. I can either show you and shame you, or you can have some integrity and take another run at it as you should have in the first place. Your choice.Brent
October 18, 2013
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RDF: "You’ve misstated my argument again: I accept BOTH the role of the mind AND the brain. I accept that our experience indicates BOTH that mechanism requires intelligence AND that intelligence requires mechanism. It is you who choose to ignore half of these obvious truths, not me." Now you are rewriting history. When you describe intelligent agents, you consistently include brains and exclude minds. I reminded you that you must include either BOTH or NEITHER. You quietly acknowledge the truth of it, but then you revert back to your talking points that omit the part about minds. RDF: "Wrong again I’m afraid. Meyer ONLY mentions the ONE aspect of our experience, namely that mechanism requires intelligence. He – and you – avoid the other obvious truth, which is that intelligence requires mechanism. The evidence for BOTH of these propositions is exactly the same, since every observation that confirms one confirms the other." Nope. Intelligence covers both. That is why the word is used. When Meyer (or myself) speak of intelligent agents, we are assuming science's testimony about the mutual dependence of brains and minds. You attack that position and mistakenly insist that the emphasis should be placed on the brain and that this emphasis should be reflected in the description of intelligence. That skews the conversation and the hypothesis. It is unscientific. RDF: "Balance? Skew? Causal Adequacy? Direct observation as scientific hypothesis? My goodness. You are dancing around like mad trying to complicate and obscure the most obvious facts of our experience." That's really very funny. You have been over-complicating and distorting the meaning of intelligent agency from the beginning, cluttering the premise with allusions to CSI-rich mechanisms in the brain. RDF: "No matter what you say, we do not observe mechanism arise without intelligent action." No kidding. Another stawman makes an entrance. --"And no matter what you say, we do not observe intelligent action without mechanism." No kidding. Yet another strawman appears. RDF: "These are perfectly balanced, utterly symmetrical relations, invariably confirmed by our experience, like it or not." Absolutely not. It is NOT a balanced description to include brains and exclude minds. This is exactly what you do. When you are allowed to run with it, you describe intelligence solely in mechanical terms just as you did above, but when called on it, you make the big switch and confess that minds play a critical role---except, of course, when no one is paying attention. SB: But don’t you understand that I can formulate an equally self-serving hypothesis by saying that in our uniform and repeated experience, certain entities with minds—and only such entities—are capable of producing CSI-rich systems. RDF: "OF COURSE I understand that – I have been saying that exact same thing for hundreds of posts now!" MECHANISM ALWAYS REQUIRES MIND. MIND ALWAYS REQUIRES MECHANISM. BOTH THINGS ARE EQUALLY TRUE IN OUR SHARED EXPERIENCE." Good. Keep that in mind the next time you are tempted emphasize one and de-emphasize the other. (Which you are about to do again and will continue to do for the rest of this post). SB: It is clear that you do not yet grasp the principle of causal adequacy or its relationship with historical science and uniformitarian reasoning. RDF: "In our experience, intelligent agents are things that use complex mechanisms in order to plan, reason, remember, and learn – all necessary activities for producing mechanisms." Thank you for avoiding the topic of causal adequacy. Thank you for another example of your skewed characterization. What happened to the role of the mind? How soon we forget. RDF: "You can try to convince us that these obviously true statements are false, but I think at some level, everyone knows that all these things are true." How much mileage can you hope to get from one strawman? RDF: "Thus, according to our experience, both of these statements are unlikely to be true: 1) the original complex mechanisms arose without intelligent agency 2) the original intelligent agency arose without complex mechanisms" I know that you have a lot of time and emotion invested in that idea, but it is true only in your imagination. It certainly isn't based on observation, science, or logic RDF: "Since we have no solution that derives from our uniform and repeated experience, we currently have no probable explanations for OOL. Perhaps one day we will discover an intelligent entity that does not operate via complex mechanism. Perhaps one day we will discover that complex mechanism can arise without intelligent action. But until we actually obtain such evidence, we have no viable empirical theory of origins." Again, you are not familiar with the methods of historical science, causal adequacy, or uniformitarian reasoning, so your opinion comes from an incomplete knowledge base. In any case, the idea is to consider the alternatives available and choose the one that best fits the evidence. Choice one: Life arose by accident Choice two: Life was designed. If you don't like the idea of making a choice, or if you choose not to disclose the choice you have made, maybe you shouldn't be playing.StephenB
October 18, 2013
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Phineas @489:
You seem to keep wanting to make a point here, but I’m not sure what it is. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to answer the two questions I posed to you up-thread.
Phin: Do you believe that God is intelligent and can think? Do you believe that God has a physical brain?
Maybe you simply did not see these questions. I hope that is the case. Ducking them on purpose may cause others to question what sort of agenda might be behind such avoidance. Don’t get me wrong. I am in favor of big-tent ID and feel that believing in God at all is not any kind of requirement, let alone believing certain things about God. I only ask for the above clarification because you’ve self-identified as a “Christian,” but your statements so far make it appear that your beliefs about God may be far from orthodox.
Yes, I do believe that God has a physical brain. The physical matter we see around us was designed. There are other possible configurations that atoms can have. I believe that God's brain is made of a different type of matter than the normal matter we observe but there is no doubt in my mind that it is physical. Humans are the only gods (as the Bible calls us) who are made out of the dust of the earth (normal matter). But we are more than dust. We also have a spirit, which explains our consciousness. This is what I believe. It took me a while to get there.Mapou
October 18, 2013
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RDF:
For the 100th time, I am not insisting on empirical explanations! It is the ID authors like Stephen Meyer and so on who insist that ID’s conclusions come from our shared experience, not me!!!!!! If you want to toss empiricism, I’m all for it! Let us together renounce the pretense that anyone has an empirically supported solution to the problem of origins! Hallelujah! I’ll hold up my end of our pact and never pretend to have an empirically support theory that explains the origin of life, and I’ll expect you to do the same!
And this is another sleight-of-hand. As far as I know, no one approaching the problem of origins would claim empiricism all the way down. I certainly doubt that Meyer would. Is it your contention, therefore, that none of them are doing science? The only legitimate empiricism is empiricism all the way down? If so, then: 1) I think your view of science and empiricism is much narrower than is typical. 2) I think that the majority of scientists on both sides of this debate would reject your view of science and empiricism. 3) If you are merely saying that (based on your own narrow view of empiricism), ID does not qualify as science any more than Darwinism does because, in principle, no study of an historical nature can really be empirical, then OK? So what? 4) However, if you are then calling Meyer disingenuous for holding the majority view on empiricism and science shared on both sides of the origin debate instead of your own narrow view, then your accusation is itself disingenuous. But maybe we could simply agree to the following and move on?
ID is as scientific and empirical as Darwinism.
Agreed?Phinehas
October 18, 2013
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Mapou and Phinehas, Phinehas, thanks for reminding me of Mapou's question. I had forgotten about it. Mapou, I'm sorry I didn't respond. I'll just say that philosophically and theologically it would seem very problematic to say God is made up of physical, material, parts. Changelessness, for example, doesn't seem possible for any material being. Additionally, if one thought that a material makeup was necessary for an omnipotent being, that would rule out omnipotence by way of making It contingent on something outside itself. But Phinehas has asked you good questions and it would probably be most beneficial if you answered them first.Brent
October 18, 2013
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Mapou:
Brent: So, your position is clear. There is no uniform and repeated experience showing that an immaterial intelligence is possible, and the uniform and repeated experience that shows otherwise is to be ignored as, either, not my argument, or, that’s religion.
Mapou: I have experienced nothing to show me that immaterial intelligence is possible.
You seem to keep wanting to make a point here, but I'm not sure what it is. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to answer the two questions I posed to you up-thread.
Phin: Do you believe that God is intelligent and can think? Do you believe that God has a physical brain?
Maybe you simply did not see these questions. I hope that is the case. Ducking them on purpose may cause others to question what sort of agenda might be behind such avoidance. Don't get me wrong. I am in favor of big-tent ID and feel that believing in God at all is not any kind of requirement, let alone believing certain things about God. I only ask for the above clarification because you've self-identified as a "Christian," but your statements so far make it appear that your beliefs about God may be far from orthodox.Phinehas
October 18, 2013
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Box (et al): RDF's underlying implicit materialism -- he may not be consciously aware of the implication -- is exposed at 424 above. From his own words in 422:
But we do know that the human brain is a fantastically complex mechanism. We also know [--> presumably, have warranted, credibly true beliefs] that in our uniform [--> what have you, like Hume, locked out ideologically here?] and repeated experience, neither humans nor anything else can [--> an unwarranted universal claim, with question begging implied] design anything without a functioning brain [--> confuses brain with mind].
The already linked at 424 picks out the gaps in reasoning point by point. KFkairosfocus
October 18, 2013
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Silver Asiatic #485: That’s it. The neurophysiological hypothesis is asserted as if it’s “invariably” our uniform and repeated experience. This is then compared as if equivalent with our uniform and repeated experience of design-by-intelligence-only.
Part of RDFish’s sleight of hand is the conflation of 'intelligence' and 'intelligent behavior' as noticed by multiple posters in this thread. For instance Phinehas:
Phinehas #389: Do you not realize that every single time intelligence is brought up you switch to talking about intelligent behavior? It is as though you want to deny that intelligence has intelligent thought as its source and intelligent behavior as its product. But this is easily verified empirically through self-reflection. On what grounds would you deny it, if not on metaphysical grounds?
RDFish reaction has always been denying relevance of the distinction. However, it is very much relevant.Box
October 18, 2013
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But, sometimes, you have to expose it for what it is.kairosfocus
October 18, 2013
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I’m saying that according to our uniform and repeated (internal) experience we do not experience that we think with our brain. We do not experience a neurophysiological hypothesis. We experience that we think and while doing so we don’t experience thinking as a brain activity. You on the other hand assert that we do. You conflate a neurophysiological hypothesis with ‘our uniform repeated experience’.
That's it. The neurophysiological hypothesis is asserted as if it's "invariably" our uniform and repeated experience. This is then compared as if equivalent with our uniform and repeated experience of design-by-intelligence-only. It's a sleight of hand. Once I caught that I realized that there's no sense in going further. You can't really argue against denialsim.Silver Asiatic
October 18, 2013
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So, your position is clear. There is no uniform and repeated experience showing that an immaterial intelligence is possible, and the uniform and repeated experience that shows otherwise is to be ignored as, either, not my argument, or, that’s religion.
That summarizes it very well. Exactly.Silver Asiatic
October 18, 2013
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5for, 454:
This thread is incredibly illuminating as it exposes the religious belief at the core of ID . . . . I don’t see what the big deal is. Just accept that ID is not an empirically supported theory and is not scientific. I don’t understand why there is such a dogged insistence that is scientific.
This is little more than a drumbeat-style continuation of and building on the ill-grounded accusation of a "lie" at the heart of UD, countered at 305 and 387 above. 5for, do you understand the implications of making false accusations of lying, and refusing to correct them when they are refuted? (As in, that a willfully continued misrepresentation -- especially continued in the teeth of cogent correction -- is in defiance of duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness, and is itself willfully deceptive.) I must note that I cannot see significant signs above, that you have seriously interacted with these corrective posts. Instead, the evidence suggests that you have studiously ignored them, the better to drum on with your talking points. (Where, onlookers I am the only actual UD contributor who has responded specifically to 5for, unless SB did something I have not noticed. In other words, he is picking up on remarks by com box participants to try to further indict those responsible for the blog, while ducking the corrections by a contributor. I have little doubt that the same tactics are being echoed elsewhere.) Let me clip 305, as it answers the core underlying claim, and points you onwards to the original post on the duty of care to seek to understand before you snip and snipe, and to the UD weak argument correctives that you show no sign of bothering to attend to before continuing to make unwarranted accusations based on snipping references out of context. (FYI, by and large the references to personal life-transforming encounter with Deity, and to evidence -- historical and cuirrent -- of miracles, is in context evidence that we have no proper right to a priori rule out the possibility of immaterial mind, which is an error RDF repeatedly makes, revealing his implicit materialism.) Citing:
FYI, the inference to design on signs such as FSCO/I is an inductive, empirically grounded and even scientific one, much as you would like to dismiss it as Creationism behind a false front. (Should we, as Jerry did, point out the frequent association between atheism, a priori materialist ideology and the warping of science through such?) The irony is, the theme of this thread is that one should first take time to understand ID before attacking it, especially attacking it with strawman caricature based arguments. Especially ones as loaded and unfair as the ones that lie behind your words. (I suggest, as a start, you can and should scroll up to the top of the page and click on the resources tab, thence the weak argument correctives.) The exchange with RDF is only in part, scientific. There are major underlying worldview issues on possible kinds of entities that exist. Once these are possible, they should not be a priori excluded by imposition of a priori ideological materialism and scientism. That boils down to grand scale question-begging. And in a world where the proper discipline for discussing worldview level issues is philosophy, this is not a matter of hiding “religion” [the subtext that this is a dirty word in your remarks is blatant] behind a false front of science. There is a significant issue as to whether mind is a fundamental reality, and as to whether it can ever be shown that mind emerges from software working on material hardware. There is a closely linked issue as to whether specifically functional software of the requisite complexity can come about without design. This last is amenable to empirical, scientific study and linked mathematical analysis. The science tells us that FSCO/I is never observed to originate save as a product of design, and the needle in haystack analysis backs that up, as the atomic and temporal resources of our solar system or observed cosmos [500 - 1,000 bits resp.] are utterly overwhelmed by the search challenge. FSCO/I is an empirically reliable sign of design, and that points to cell based life — which uses digital info processing and codes — being designed. Related, a fine tuned cosmos fitted for such, and with a beginning, also shows indications of being designed. And onwards the logic of cause and sufficient reason points to the root of reality being a necessary being that is immaterial — pointing to mind as the root of reality. That same logic is the foundation of science. These may be uncomfortable for atheists and for the domination of science and science edu by a priori Lewontin-Sagan style materialism, but that does not mean that they are unreasonable. So, I think you have some serious walking back of unjustified accusations of organised lying by this blog as an entity to do.
387 as already linked, gives further details. We can therefore point out, contrary to your confident manner assertions: 1: The design inference is empirically grounded and is in line with Newton's rules for applying the uniformity principle. 2: To wit, on noting traces of the past or otherwise not directly observable events etc, where we notice that we have observed causes that leave substantially similar consequences, we may best explain the cause of the traces on like causes like. 3: In the case of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information, we see both that invariably across billions of cases FSCO/I is intelligently caused and that it is utterly implausible on the gamut of the solar system or the observed cosmos that such FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity is caused by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, on needle in haystack search challenge grounds. (This has never been successfully countered by observed counter-example and the cases trotted out repeatedly turn out to have been designed.) 4: Cell based life from molecular foundations onwards, is chock full of FSCO/I (including codes, algorithms using coded info and correctly organised implementing machinery), and there is no solidly observationally grounded blind chance and necessity explanation. Indeed OOL research under the naturalistic programme is notoriously in disarray. Worse, the required reaction kinetics would militate strongly against spontaneous formation and organisation. 5: By contrast, in our observation on billions of cases FSCO/I and particularly codes, code using algorithms and execution machinery would be known on intelligent design. So on the uniformity of cause principle and the well grounded induction that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, we may therefore scientifically infer that there is a best explanation of cell based life, design. 6: This puts design at the table from the root of the tree of life on up. And similarly there is no observationally well founded blind watchmaker account for the origin of body plans. Design remains the best explanation -- on inductive logic based scientific principles -- for the FSCO/I in the world of cell-based life. 7: Further, let me clip 424 above, to RDF, on the issue of whether this is a religious or supernaturally based inference:
6 –> . . . I have already pointed out how, from 1984 on, the design inference on the world of life is not relevant to the issue of embodiment of intelligence. In simple terms, post Venter, it is clear that a molecular nanotech lab would be sufficient to account for what we see on earth. But it is a crude fallacy to conflate that which is [logically] sufficient with that which is [logically] necessary. 7 –> That is, an embodied intelligence would be sufficient, but that is worlds away from it being necessary and sufficient. 8 –> And indeed, that highlights a basic fallacy in the inference above: observations of the action of embodied intelligences show that an embodied intelligence is credibly sufficient to account for intelligent acts and artifacts, but that has not told us anything about whether the intelligence is emergent from and caused by purely physical blind forces, or indeed whether it is actually physical in character as opposed to say being intertwined with and interacting with the physical . . .
8: That is, intelligent design, on the world of life has NEVER -- from its effective founding c 1984 on -- been committed, as science to a "supernatural" explanation of the origin or body plan level diversity of the only cell based life we have actually observed, that on earth. That accusation, has been an ideologically loaded strawman made in defiance of basic duties to truth and fairness (especially by NCSE et al) all along. 9: Instead, following a contrast that has been in the serious literature since Plato, it examines the contrast NATURAL vs ART-ifical causes, and their characteristic signs. Where, natural causes are used in the familiar sense of causes tracing to blind chance and mechanical necessity. (Do we recall Monod's famous c. 1970 book, Chance and Necessity, a direct echo of Plato?) 10: It is also interesting to see the want of serious response to the other half of design theory, the cosmological inference to design on evident multidimensional fine tuning of an observed cosmos that credibly having a beginning, is contingent and caused. (Cf. 101 and links to onward reading here at UD.) This fine tuning -- even through a multiverse speculation -- strongly points to design of the cosmos in which we live. 11: By the logic of cause (foundational to science), in the context of a contingent cosmos, this points to design by an intelligence with the knowledge, skill and intent to build a cosmos in which C Chemistry cell based aqueous medium life would be possible. 12: Moreover, the root cause of such a cosmos would be a necessary being, which could not be material (as matter is patently contingent). Necessary beings -- such as the truth asserted in 2 + 3 = 5 -- have no beginning nor can they cease from being. (This is of course across the border in the parent discipline of science, philosophy [not religion]; but it is based on the underlying logic of science and on self-evident first principles that ground the logic of cause and effect.) 13: Thus, the attempt to suggest that there is "no evidence" or "no good evidence" that there exists mind independent of matter boils down to refusing to attend accurately to the evidence and reasoning [cosmological evidence], locked into thought patterns tracing to materialistic ideology. This has been compounded by making a strawman caricature of the design inference made and properly delimited regarding the world of life. 14: Ideology-driven materialistic selective hyperskepticism, in short. It is high time that such was acknowledged to be fallacious by objectors, and it should be apologised for and abandoned. =========== I make a prediction: 5for will try to ignore the correction in this post, as he has ignored earlier correction. I invite him to prove me wrong by actually showing evidence of serious discussion instead of snip, reframe in terms of a grotesque conspiracy narrative about a Creationist theocratic takeover of science and civilisation -- you think I did not see this part? -- and snipe to reinforce a smear. KF PS: 5for, you have earned poster-boy status.kairosfocus
October 18, 2013
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RDFish #444: 1) ID (by which I mean ID proponents such as Stephen Meyer in particular) claims that the evidence for ID is based upon our uniform and repeated experience, which Meyer takes to be the basis for all scientific reasoning. 2) ID points out that in our uniform and repeated experience, complex physical systems only arise by means of intelligent action, and so concludes that intelligent action was likely to be the originating cause of the complex mechanisms we observe in biology.
‘Intelligence’ is obviously more fundamental than ‘intelligent action’ - ‘intelligent action in the physical world’. Simply put: first ‘think’ then ‘do’. It is the origin of the CSI in complex physical systems that ID seeks to explain. Not material parts or the method by which complexity is produced. The question for ID is: ‘where does the information come from?’ Intelligence (thinking) produces information (CSI). CSI is NOT produced by intelligent action in the physical world, as you suggest. Intelligent action in this sense is only a means to transfer CSI to a physical system.
RDFish #444: 3) However, in our uniform and repeated experience, intelligent action arises only by means of the operation of complex physical mechanism, which is required to store and process information.
Indeed (our) ‘intelligent action in the physical world’ depends on the operation of complex physical mechanism. However our uniform and repeated experience does NOT show us that we THINK with a complex physical mechanism (brain). (see my post #452)
RDFish #444: 4) This means that contrary to ID, it is unlikely that an intelligent cause could have preceded the first complex physical mechanism. In order to support this hypothesis, then, ID needs to provide evidence that such a thing (an intelligent agent that was not itself a complex physical system) could exist.
You have conflated ‘intelligence’ with ‘intelligent action in the physical world’. The former does not depend complex physical mechanism, according to our uniform and repeated experience. Please do make that distinction and you will reach another conclusion.Box
October 18, 2013
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Nothing is relevant to his argument, Box.Brent
October 18, 2013
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Box #476: Do you deny that is helpful to distinguish between intelligence and intelligent action? There is thinking a sentence (intelligence), typing a sentence (intelligent action) and a typed sentence (an artifact containing CSI), and it is not helpful for this discussion to conflate any of them.
RDFish #479: It is irrelevant to my argument. My argument only has to do with what is required to produce complex physical mechanisms such as we see in biological systems, and clearly something that can think but not act in the world is not able to produce anything in the physical world at all.
These distinctions are relevant to your argument. My point is that thoughts are CSI. IOW thinking produces CSI. And it is the origin of CSI in biological systems that ID seeks to explain – not the method of incorporating CSI. And intelligence explains the origin of CSI, because thinking produces CSI. 1. Intelligence (thinking a sentence = production of CSI) 2. Intelligent action (typing a sentence = storing CSI) – 3. Complex artifact ( typed sentence in a medium = an artifact containing CSI). According to our uniform and repeated (internal) experience we do not experience that we think with our brain. We do not experience a neurophysiological hypothesis.Box
October 18, 2013
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Hi Box,
Do you deny that is helpful to distinguish between intelligence and intelligent action? There is thinking a sentence (intelligence), typing a sentence (intelligent action) and a typed sentence (an artifact containing CSI), and it is not helpful for this discussion to conflate any of them.
It is irrelevant to my argument. My argument only has to do with what is required to produce complex physical mechanisms such as we see in biological systems, and clearly something that can think but not act in the world is not able to produce anything in the physical world at all. And regarding your view that we have not empirically established that brains are involved in thinking, I'm very happy to agree to disagree on this point, and let the fair reader decide who is correct. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 18, 2013
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Hi Brent,
Let’s let Stephen Meyer defend himself.
Sorry, but my argument has nothing whatsoever to do with "naturalism", so none of this applies to the present discussion. I am not excluding anything on the basis that it is not "natural" or "materialistic". Meyer points out that in our experience, the production of complex mechanisms invariably requires intelligent action, and I point out that in our experience, intelligent action invariably requires complex mechanisms. These are both simple, true, undeniable facts. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 18, 2013
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Better late than never, I guess. Let's let Stephen Meyer defend himself. From The Nature of Nature, edited by Bruce L. Gordon and William A. Dembski, DNA: Signature in the Cell, by Stephen C. Meyer, pg. 331:
But Is It Science? Of course, many simply refuse to consider the design hypothesis on grounds that it does not qualify as "scientific." Such critics affirm an extra-evidential principle known as methodological naturalism. Methodological naturalism asserts that, as a matter of definition, for a hypothesis, theory, or explanation to qualify as "scientific," it must invoke only naturalistic or materialistic entities. On that definition, critics say, the intelligent design hypothesis does not qualify. Yet, even if one grants this definition, it does not follow that some nonscientific (as defined by methodological naturalism) or metaphysical hypothesis may not constitute a better, more causally adequate, explanation. This essay has argued that, whatever its classification, the design hypothesis does constituted a better explanation that its materialistic or naturalistic rivals for the origin of specified biological information. Surely, simply classifying an argument as metaphysical does not refute it. In any case, methodological naturalism now lacks justification as a normative definition of science. First, attempts to justify methodological naturalism by reference to metaphysically neutral (that is, non-question-begging) demarcation criteria have failed.
Note: Have we not seen AMPLE evidence of this here? Meyer continues:
Second, to assert methodological naturalism as a normative principle for all of science has a negative effect on the practice of certain scientific disciplines, especially the historical sciences. In origin-of-life research, for example, methodological naturalism artificially restricts inquiry and prevents scientists from seeking some hypotheses that might provide the best, most causally adequate explanations. To be a truth-seeking endeavor, the question that origin-of-life research must address is not, "Which materialistic scenario seems most adequate?" but rather, "What actually caused life to arise on Earth?" Clearly, one possible answer to that latter question is this one: "Life was designed by an intelligent agent that existed before the advent of humans." If one accepts methodological naturalism as normative, however, scientists may never consider the design hypothesis as possibly true. Such an exclusionary logic diminishes the significance of any claim of theoretical superiority for any remaining hypothesis and raises the possibility that the best "scientific" explanation (as defined by methodological naturalism) may not be the best in fact. As many historians and philosophers of science now recognize, scientific theory-evaluation is an inherently comparative enterprise. Theories that gain acceptance in artificially constrained competitions can clam to be neither "most probably true" nor "most empirically adequate." At best, such theories can be considered the "most probably true or adequate among an artificially limited set of options." Openness to the design hypothesis would seem necessary, therefore, to any fully rational historical biology --- that is, to one that seeks the truth, no holds barred. A historical biology committed to following the evidence wherever it leads will not exclude hypotheses a priori on metaphysical grounds. Instead, it will employ only metaphysically neutral criteria --- such as explanatory power and causal adequacy --- to evaluate competing hypotheses. Yet this more open (and seemingly rational) approach to scientific theory evaluation would now suggest the theory of intelligent design as the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the origin of the information necessary to build the first living organism.
Brent
October 18, 2013
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Box #452: To be clear: We do not experience that we think with our brain. It is not part of our uniform and repeated experience that we think with our brain. The idea that we think with our brain is a hypothesis made by neurophysiology.
RDFish #464: So you are saying that as far as we know from our experience, we do not need to use our brains for thinking?
I’m saying that our direct (internal) uniform and repeated experience of thinking does not show us that thinking depends on brain – in fact it does not show us a brain at all; just thoughts. The (external) study of the brain has never shown us a single thought – just firing neurons. The idea that firing neurons are thinking is an hypothesis made by neurophysiology.
Box #452: Aristotle suggested the brain to be a secondary organ that served as a cooling agent for the heart; which underlines the point I’m making: we do not experience that we think with our brain.
RDFish #464: So you are saying that as far as we know from our experience, the brain may serve some other purpose, such as cooling the blood?
I’m saying that our uniform and repeated experience does not inform us that we think with our brain. The fact that it is possible that Aristotle comes up with such an idea supports my statement. He can only come up with such an idea because we do not directly experience a connection between thinking and brain.
Box #452: So contrary to what RDFish is claiming, it is NOT part of our uniform repeated experience that intelligence arises only by means of the operation of complex physical mechanism (brain).
RDFish #464: So you are saying that there are things in our uniform and repeated experience that can design things without using their brain?
No I'm not saying that. I'm not speaking of intelligent action in the physical world. I’m saying that according to our uniform and repeated (internal) experience we do not experience that we think with our brain. We do not experience a neurophysiological hypothesis. We experience that we think and while doing so we don’t experience thinking as a brain activity. You on the other hand assert that we do. You conflate a neurophysiological hypothesis with ‘our uniform repeated experience’.
Box #452: And by ‘intelligence’ I do NOT mean ‘intelligent action in the phyiscal world’. Expressing thoughts – intelligent action – in the physical world does depend on complex physical mechanism. However intelligent action in the physical world is distinct from intelligence – e.g. thinking.
RDFish #464: Well, we’re talking about explaining the origin of complex physical mechanisms that we observe in biological systems, which would in fact be intelligent actions.
Do you deny that is helpful to distinguish between intelligence and intelligent action? There is thinking a sentence (intelligence), typing a sentence (intelligent action) and a typed sentence (an artifact containing CSI), and it is not helpful for this discussion to conflate any of them.Box
October 18, 2013
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Brent i think that is the point. Meyer claims the authority of uniform and repeated experience but won't commit to the conclusion that follows ie that our uniform and repeated experience is that designers are material not immaterial, and not maybe one or the other. It is not an open question in our uniform and repeated experience.5for
October 17, 2013
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For the 100th time, I am not insisting on empirical explanations! It is the ID authors like Stephen Meyer and so on who insist that ID’s conclusions come from our shared experience, not me!!!!!!
This discussion can end now, because it is ID authors like Stephen Meyer who also do not insist on material or immaterial intelligence. If you ever pick up the banner of ID and wish to add complex physical mechanisms to the hypotheses, go ahead.Brent
October 17, 2013
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Hi Brent,
Yet again you mischaracterize my point and don’t answer it. You said that it needs to be shown that an immaterial intelligence could exist by means of uniform and repeated experience. It IS uniform and repeated experience of many, many millions of people that just such an intelligence exists. You have no basis to throw that evidence out.
I've responded to this. Many millions of people do not experience disembodied intelligence, so this experience is not uniform. And you cannot provide a way to reliably replicate observations of disembodied intelligence, and so it is not in our repeated experience.
It’s actually funny when you think about it. You want to put an immaterial intelligence in the test tube for, exactly, . . . what? To weigh? To observe? To . . . ? Oh! Yeah!
Paranormal researchers look for ways to establish the existence of such things; they don't think it is funny.
Theoretically speaking, from the empiricist position you say ID holds to, you could be right that intelligence requires CPM, but you could be wrong as well, which is why the ID community wisely remains quiet on the issue. One wonders why the only one making so much noise is YOU.
Ah, this one is priceless! Thank you, Brent. :-)
Invariably, however, when the reasons for not concluding that an immaterial intelligence is impossible are shown you, you brush it off as “that isn’t my argument”.
The reason that I say that is because I am not arguing that immaterial intelligence is impossible. Rather, I am arguing that immaterial intelligence is not part of our uniform and repeated experience.
Dualism comes up so as to show that it is decidedly an undecided issue, but you say it doesn’t matter.
The reason my argument holds under dualism just as well is because dualism implies that intelligent agents require physical bodies (as well as immaterial minds) in order to design and build complex mechanisms. My argument has nothing to do with metaphysics. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 17, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
On the contrary, it is you that ignores half our experience by alluding to the role of the brain while ignoring the role of the mind.
You've misstated my argument again: I accept BOTH the role of the mind AND the brain. I accept that our experience indicates BOTH that mechanism requires intelligence AND that intelligence requires mechanism. It is you who choose to ignore half of these obvious truths, not me.
We have uniform and repeated experience of both. Meyer’s approach is balanced: Neither element is mentioned. Your approach is biased: One element is included; the other is ignored.
Wrong again I'm afraid. Meyer ONLY mentions the ONE aspect of our experience, namely that mechanism requires intelligence. He - and you - avoid the other obvious truth, which is that intelligence requires mechanism. The evidence for BOTH of these propositions is exactly the same, since every observation that confirms one confirms the other.
To say that intelligent agents with brains produce CSI-rich systems is correct as far as it goes, but it is too skewed to serve as a scientific hypothesis since it presents an unbalanced description of the cause. Equally important, it does not satisfy the criterion of causal adequacy, which requires that there must be an absence of evidence for other possible causes, such as mind.
Balance? Skew? Causal Adequacy? Direct observation as scientific hypothesis? My goodness. You are dancing around like mad trying to complicate and obscure the most obvious facts of our experience. No matter what you say, we do not observe mechanism arise without intelligent action. And no matter what you say, we do not observe intelligent action without mechanism. These are perfectly balanced, utterly symmetrical relations, invariably confirmed by our experience, like it or not.
But don’t you understand that I can formulate an equally self-serving hypothesis by saying that in our uniform and repeated experience, certain entities with minds—and only such entities—are capable of producing CSI-rich systems.
OF COURSE I understand that - I have been saying that exact same thing for hundreds of posts now! MECHANISM ALWAYS REQUIRES MIND. MIND ALWAYS REQUIRES MECHANISM. BOTH THINGS ARE EQUALLY TRUE IN OUR SHARED EXPERIENCE.
As was the case with your formulation, it is correct as far as it goes, but it is too skewed to serve as a scientific hypothesis. A scientific hypothesis cannot be skewed. Also, for the same reason as above, it would not satisfy the principle of causal adequacy. The CSI-rich mechanism of the brain might also be a factor.
These are not scientific hypotheses! These are observations! Both of them!
It is clear that you do not yet grasp the principle of causal adequacy or its relationship with historical science and uniformitarian reasoning.
Intelligent agents are real. Intelligent agents cause novel mechanisms. Intelligent agents are thus causally adequate for mechanism. In our experience, intelligent agents are things that use complex mechanisms in order to plan, reason, remember, and learn - all necessary activities for producing mechanisms. You can try to convince us that these obviously true statements are false, but I think at some level, everyone knows that all these things are true. Thus, according to our experience, both of these statements are unlikely to be true: 1) the original complex mechanisms arose without intelligent agency 2) the original intelligent agency arose without complex mechanisms Since we have no solution that derives from our uniform and repeated experience, we currently have no probable explanations for OOL. Perhaps one day we will discover an intelligent entity that does not operate via complex mechanism. Perhaps one day we will discover that complex mechanism can arise without intelligent action. But until we actually obtain such evidence, we have no viable empirical theory of origins. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 17, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
There may be no evidence of anything before the Big Bang, but that doesn’t diminish my point that complex physical mechanisms are ruled out in a way that intelligence is not
I actually don't understand what your point is supposed to be regarding the Big Bang or what may have existed "before" it, but what I do know is that this has absolutely nothing to do with our uniform and repeated experience.
So, you avoid the obvious conclusions about CSI requiring intelligence by appealing to a chicken-and-egg problem.
Actually, you avoid the chicken-and-egg problem by appealing to conclusions regarding CSI and intelligence. I'm the one acknowledging all of the evidence; you (and other ID proponents) are avoiding half of it.
If you disagree, then the chicken-and-egg problem you introduced is your problem to solve empirically, should you insist on only empirical explanations.
For the 100th time, I am not insisting on empirical explanations! It is the ID authors like Stephen Meyer and so on who insist that ID's conclusions come from our shared experience, not me!!!!!! If you want to toss empiricism, I'm all for it! Let us together renounce the pretense that anyone has an empirically supported solution to the problem of origins! Hallelujah! I'll hold up my end of our pact and never pretend to have an empirically support theory that explains the origin of life, and I'll expect you to do the same! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 17, 2013
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Brent @469:
So, your position is clear. There is no uniform and repeated experience showing that an immaterial intelligence is possible, and the uniform and repeated experience that shows otherwise is to be ignored as, either, not my argument, or, that’s religion.
I have experienced nothing to show me that immaterial intelligence is possible. Why is it so important to some here that intelligence be immaterial? What would that prove? Duality does not demand it. The only thing that I experience and that I can partially attribute to an immaterial spirit is consciousness. I say partially because consciousness requires two things, a knower and a known. In fact, I have experienced many things that show me beyond a shadow of a doubt that my intelligence (memory, learning, pattern recognition, goal-directed behavior, etc.) is in my brain. I personally see no point and no benefit in disagreeing with everything the other side says. I say, let that be their weakness, not ours. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.Mapou
October 17, 2013
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RDF, Phinehas @453 followed up where I was going nicely. I had said:
Do you accept that complex physical mechanisms exist that do not have a mind/intelligence?
RDF said:
Yes, of course! However, there is no good evidence that intelligent action can occur without complex physical mechanism.
Good. You agree. Do these complex physical mechanisms without intelligence produce CSI? They don't. Therefore, ID's conclusion to intelligence, apart from a complex physical mechanism, is correct and the only rational, scientific, and empirical one available. A complex physical mechanism is superfluous. Theoretically speaking, from the empiricist position you say ID holds to, you could be right that intelligence requires CPM, but you could be wrong as well, which is why the ID community wisely remains quiet on the issue. One wonders why the only one making so much noise is YOU. This is essentially what StephenB is saying, and he's right. The only one not allowing for empiricism is you, by insisting that intelligence without the CPM (it's too long to type all the time) is required to be shown possible, even while there is no good reason to think it isn't possible, for the many reasons articulated to you. Invariably, however, when the reasons for not concluding that an immaterial intelligence is impossible are shown you, you brush it off as "that isn't my argument". Dualism comes up so as to show that it is decidedly an undecided issue, but you say it doesn't matter. Nice. Uniform and repeated experience of religious believers is brought up to show an immaterial intelligence is evidenced, and you say, "If ID wants to rely on miracle, OK. But it isn't empirical science", even though that wasn't the point at all. So, your position is clear. There is no uniform and repeated experience showing that an immaterial intelligence is possible, and the uniform and repeated experience that shows otherwise is to be ignored as, either, not my argument, or, that's religion.Brent
October 17, 2013
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RDF to Phineas: "First, there is no evidence of anything “before” the Big Bang, and in fact since time itself apparently originated in the Big Bang, the notion of “before the Big Bang” is incoherent." There is plenty of evidence to support the existence of a cause that is logically prior to the big bang and to time/space/history.StephenB
October 17, 2013
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RDF, & 5for, I said:
But you want uniform and repeated experience of an immaterial being without miracles? Jesus and the Bible don’t count because it was 2,000 years ago that those repeated and uniform experiences occurred? Miracles today are discounted because they don’t, apparently, happen regularly enough for your fancy? Never minding the fact that miracles, by definition, must be the exception?
RDF said:
If ID relies on miracles and scripture as evidence, that’s fine – simply acknowledge the fact. However, when ID proponents such as Stephen Meyer claims that ID is based on uniform and repeated experience, it obviously behooves him to point to evidence which is in fact uniform and repeatable.
Yet again you mischaracterize my point and don't answer it. You said that it needs to be shown that an immaterial intelligence could exist by means of uniform and repeated experience. It IS uniform and repeated experience of many, many millions of people that just such an intelligence exists. You have no basis to throw that evidence out. It's actually funny when you think about it. You want to put an immaterial intelligence in the test tube for, exactly, . . . what? To weigh? To observe? To . . . ? Oh! Yeah! Say what you want, but it is YOU who are dogmatically demanding that uniform and repeated experience, today, emphatically leaves no room for a conclusion to an intelligence that exists without a complex physical mechanism; but it does leave room, as long as one stops adhering to, either personally or for argument's sake, materialism. It is more than a little curious that, claiming not to be a materialist, you are not willing to allow for a non-materialistic interpretation of actual uniform and repeated experience.Brent
October 17, 2013
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