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Update:  When I saw the quote originally posted here, I researched it and found an attribution to a source.  (The Birth Control Review of 1933-34).  It turns out that attribution was mistaken.  For posting an inaccurate quotation I apologize.  That said, the general views expressed in the quotation were in fact held by Margaret Sanger.  I replace the original post with this from Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism”:

 

Margaret Sanger, whose American Birth Control League became Planned Parenthood, was the founding mother of the birth-control movement. She is today considered a liberal saint, a founder of modern feminism, and one of the leading lights of the Progressive pantheon. Gloria Feldt of Planned Parenthood proclaims, “I stand by Margaret Sanger’s side,” leading “the organization that carries on Sanger’s legacy.” Planned Parenthood’s first black president, Faye Wattleton — Ms. magazine’s “Woman of the Year” in 1989 — said that she was “proud” to be “walking in the footsteps of Margaret Sanger.” Planned Parenthood gives out annual Maggie Awards to individuals and organizations who advance Sanger’s cause. Recipients are a Who’s Who of liberal icons, from the novelist John Irving to the producers of NBC’s West Wing. What Sanger’s liberal admirers are eager to downplay is that she was a thoroughgoing racist who subscribed completely to the views of E. A. Ross and other “raceologists.” Indeed, she made many of them seem tame.

Sanger was born into a poor family of eleven children in Corning, New York, in 1879. In 1902 she received her degree as a registered nurse. In 1911 she moved to New York City, where she fell in with the transatlantic bohemian avant-garde of the burgeoning fascist moment. “Our living-room,” she wrote in her autobiography, “became a gathering place where liberals, anarchists, Socialists and I.W.W.’s could meet.” A member of the Women’s Committee of the New York Socialist Party, she participated in all the usual protests and demonstrations. In 1912 she started writing what amounted to a sex-advice column for the New York Call, dubbed “What Every Girl Should Know.” The overriding theme of her columns was the importance of contraception.

A disciple of the anarchist Emma Goldman — another eugenicist — Sanger became the nation’s first “birth control martyr” when she was arrested for handing out condoms in 1917. In order to escape a subsequent arrest for violating obscenity laws, she went to England, where she fell under the thrall of Havelock Ellis, a sex theorist and ardent advocate of forced sterilization. She also had an affair with H. G. Wells, the self-avowed champion of “liberal fascism.” Her marriage fell apart early, and one of her children — whom she admitted to neglecting — died of pneumonia at age four. Indeed, she always acknowledged that she wasn’t right for family life, admitting she was not a “fit person for love or home or children or anything which needs attention or consideration.”

Under the banner of “reproductive freedom,” Sanger subscribed to nearly all of the eugenic views discussed above. She sought to ban reproduction of the unfit and regulate reproduction for everybody else. She scoffed at the soft approach of the “positive” eugenicists, deriding it as mere “cradle competition” between the fit and the unfit. “More children from the fit, less from the unfit — that is the chief issue of birth control,” she frankly wrote in her 1922 book The Pivot of Civilization. (The book featured an introduction by Wells, in which he proclaimed, “We want fewer and better children…and we cannot make the social life and the world-peace we are determined to make, with the ill-bred, ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens that you inflict on us.” Two civilizations were at war: that of progress and that which sought a world “swamped by an indiscriminate torrent of progeny.”

A fair-minded person cannot read Sanger’s books, articles, and pamphlets today without finding similarities not only to Nazi eugenics but to the dark dystopias of the feminist imagination found in such allegories as Margaret Atwood’s Handmaid’s Tale. As editor of The Birth Control Review, Sanger regularly published the sort of hard racists we normally associate with Goebbels or Himmler. Indeed, after she resigned as editor, The Birth Control Review ran articles by people who worked for Goebbels and Himmler. For example, when the Nazi eugenics program was first getting wide attention, The Birth Control Review was quick to cast the Nazis in a positive light, giving over its pages for an article titled “Eugenic Sterilization: An Urgent Need,” by Ernst Rüdin, Hitler’s director of sterilization and a founder of the Nazi Society for Racial Hygiene. In 1926 Sanger proudly gave a speech to a KKK rally in Silver Lake, New Jersey.

One of Sanger’s closest friends and influential colleagues was the white supremacist Lothrop Stoddard, author of The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy. In the book he offered his solution for the threat posed by the darker races: “Just as we isolate bacterial invasions, and starve out the bacteria, by limiting the area and amount of their food supply, so we can compel an inferior race to remain in its native habitat.” When the book came out, Sanger was sufficiently impressed to invite him to join the board of directors of the American Birth Control League.

Sanger’s genius was to advance Ross’s campaign for social control by hitching the racist-eugenic campaign to sexual pleasure and female liberation. In her “Code to Stop Overproduction of Children,” published in 1934, she decreed that “no woman shall have a legal right to bear a child without a permit…no permit shall be valid for more than one child.”47 But Sanger couched this fascistic agenda in the argument that “liberated” women wouldn’t mind such measures because they don’t really want large families in the first place. In a trope that would be echoed by later feminists such as Betty Friedan, she argued that motherhood itself was a socially imposed constraint on the liberty of women. It was a form of what Marxists called false consciousness to want a large family.

Sanger believed — prophetically enough — that if women conceived of sex as first and foremost a pleasurable experience rather than a procreative act, they would embrace birth control as a necessary tool for their own personal gratification. She brilliantly used the language of liberation to convince women they weren’t going along with a collectivist scheme but were in fact “speaking truth to power,” as it were. This was the identical trick the Nazis pulled off. They took a radical Nietzschean doctrine of individual will and made it into a trendy dogma of middle-class conformity. This trick remains the core of much faddish “individualism” among rebellious conformists on the American cultural left today. Nonetheless, Sanger’s analysis was surely correct, and led directly to the widespread feminist association of sex with political rebellion. Sanger in effect “bought off” women (and grateful men) by offering tolerance for promiscuity in return for compliance with her eugenic schemes.

In 1939 Sanger created the above-mentioned “Negro Project,” which aimed to get blacks to adopt birth control. Through the Birth Control Federation, she hired black ministers (including the Reverend Adam Clayton Powell Sr.), doctors, and other leaders to help pare down the supposedly surplus black population. The project’s racist intent is beyond doubt. “The mass of significant Negroes,” read the project’s report, “still breed carelessly and disastrously, with the result that the increase among Negroes…is [in] that portion of the population least intelligent and fit.” Sanger’s intent is shocking today, but she recognized its extreme radicalism even then. “We do not want word to go out,” she wrote to a colleague, “that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”

It is possible that Sanger didn’t really want to “exterminate” the Negro population so much as merely limit its growth. Still, many in the black community saw it that way and remained rightly suspicious of the Progressives’ motives. It wasn’t difficult to see that middle-class whites who consistently spoke of “race suicide” at the hands of dark, subhuman savages might not have the best interests of blacks in mind. This skepticism persisted within the black community for decades. Someone who saw the relationship between abortion and race from a less trusting perspective telegrammed Congress in 1977 to tell them that abortion amounted to “genocide against the black race.” And he added, in block letters, “AS A MATTER OF CONSCIENCE I MUST OPPOSE THE USE OF FEDERAL FUNDS FOR A POLICY OF KILLING INFANTS.” This was Jesse Jackson, who changed his position when he decided to seek the Democratic nomination.

Just a few years ago, the racial eugenic “bonus” of abortion rights was something one could only admit among those fully committed to the cause, and even then in politically correct whispers. No more. Increasingly, this argument is acceptable on the left, as are arguments in favor of eugenics generally.

In 2005 the acclaimed University of Chicago economist Steven Levitt broke the taboo with his critical and commercial hit Freakonomics (co-written with Stephen Dubner). The most sensational chapter in the book updated a paper Levitt had written in 1999 which argued that abortion cuts crime. “Legalized abortion led to less unwantedness; unwantedness leads to high crime; legalized abortion, therefore, led to less crime.” Freakonomics excised all references to race and never connected the facts that because the aborted fetuses were disproportionately black and blacks disproportionately contribute to the crime rate, reducing the size of the black population reduces crime. Yet the press coverage acknowledged this and didn’t seem to mind.

In 2005 William Bennett, a committed pro-lifer, invoked the Levitt argument in order to denounce eugenic thinking. “I do know that it’s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down.” What seemed to offend liberals most was that Bennett had accidentally borrowed some conventional liberal logic to make a conservative point, and, as with the social Darwinists of yore, that makes liberals quite cross. According to the New York Times’s Bob Herbert, Bennett believed “exterminating blacks would be a most effective crime-fighting tool.” Various liberal spokesmen, including Terry McAuliffe, the former head of the Democratic National Committee, said Bennett wanted to exterminate “black babies.” Juan Williams proclaimed that Bennett’s remarks speak “to a deeply racist mindset.”

In one sense, this is a pretty amazing turnaround. After all, when liberals advocate them, we are usually told that abortions do not kill “babies.” Rather, they remove mere agglomerations of cells and tissue or “uterine contents.” If hypothetical abortions committed for allegedly conservative ends are infanticide, how can actual abortions performed for liberal ends not be?

Some liberals are honest about this. In 1992 Nicholas Von Hoffman argued in the Philadelphia Inquirer:

Free cheap abortion is a policy of social defense. To save ourselves from being murdered in our beds and raped on the streets, we should do everything possible to encourage pregnant women who don’t want the baby and will not take care of it to get rid of the thing before it turns into a monster… At their demonstration, the anti-abortionists parade around with pictures of dead and dismembered fetuses. The pro-abortionists should meet these displays with some of their own: pictures of the victims of the unaborted — murder victims, rape victims, mutilation victims — pictures to remind us that the fight for abortion is but part of the larger struggle for safe homes and safe streets.

Later that same year, the White House received a letter from the Roe v. Wade co-counsel Ron Weddington, urging the new president-elect to rush RU-486 — the morning-after pill — to the market as quickly as possible. Weddington’s argument was refreshingly honest:

[Y]ou can start immediately to eliminate the barely educated, unhealthy and poor segment of our country. No, I’m not advocating some sort of mass extinction of these unfortunate people. Crime, drugs and disease are already doing that. The problem is that their numbers are not only replaced but increased by the birth of millions of babies to people who can’t afford to have babies. There, I’ve said it. It’s what we all know is true, but we only whisper it, because as liberals who believe in individual rights, we view any program which might treat the disadvantaged as discriminatory, mean-spirited and… well… so Republican.

[G]overnment is also going to have to provide vasectomies, tubal ligations and abortions. . , . There have been about 30 million abortions in this country since Roe v. Wade. Think of all the poverty, crime and misery . . . and then add 30 million unwanted babies to the scenario. We lost a lot of ground during the Reagan-Bush religious orgy. We don’t have a lot of time left.

How, exactly, is this substantively different from Margaret Sanger’s self-described “religion of birth control,” which would, she wrote, “ease the financial load of caring for with public funds . . . children destined to become a burden to themselves, to their family, and ultimately to the nation”?

The issue here is not the explicit intent of liberals or the rationalizations they invoke to deceive themselves about the nature of abortion. Rather, it is to illustrate that even when motives and arguments change, the substance of the policy remains in its effects. After the Holocaust discredited eugenics per se, neither the eugenicists nor their ideas disappeared. Rather, they went to ground in fields like family planning and demography and in political movements such as feminism. Indeed, in a certain sense Planned Parenthood is today more eugenic than Sanger intended. Sanger, after all, despised abortion. She denounced it as “barbaric” and called abortionists “bloodsucking men with M.D. after their names.” Abortion resulted in “an outrageous slaughter” and “the killing of babies,” which even the degenerate offspring of the unfit did not deserve.

So forget about intent: Look at results. Abortion ends more black lives than heart disease, cancer, accidents, AIDS, and violent crime combined. African Americans constitute little more than 12 percent of the population but have more than a third (37 percent) of abortions. That rate has held relatively constant, though in some regions the numbers are much starker; in Mississippi, black women receive some 72 percent of all abortions, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Nationwide, 512 out of every 1,000 black pregnancies end in an abortion. Revealingly enough, roughly 80 percent of Planned Parenthood’s abortion centers are in or near minority communities. Liberalism today condemns a Bill Bennett who speculates about the effects of killing unborn black children; but it also celebrates the actual killing of unborn black children, and condemns him for opposing it.

Of course, orthodox eugenics also aimed at the “feebleminded” and “useless bread gobblers” — which included everyone from the mentally retarded to an uneducated and malnourished underclass to recidivist criminals. When it comes to today’s “feebleminded,” influential voices on the left now advocate the killing of “defectives” at the beginning of life and at the end of life. Chief among them is Peter Singer, widely hailed as the most important living philosopher and the world’s leading ethicist. Professor Singer, who teaches at Princeton, argues that unwanted or disabled babies should be killed in the name of “compassion.” He also argues that the elderly and other drags on society should be put down when their lives are no longer worth living.

Singer doesn’t hide behind code words and euphemisms in his belief that killing babies isn’t always wrong, as one can deduce from his essay titled “Killing Babies Isn’t Always Wrong” (nor is he a lone voice in the wilderness; his views are popular or respected in many academic circles). But that hasn’t caused the Left to ostracize him in the slightest (save in Germany, where people still have a visceral sense of where such logic takes you). Of course, not all or even most liberals agree with Singer’s prescriptions, but nor do they condemn him as they do, say, a William Bennett. Perhaps they recognize in him a kindred spirit.

 

 

Comments
AF: One last thing, nope the issue was to look up originals, e.g. PP is just as much a secondary source as any other current one; one that misleadingly skirted the underlying major issue of Sanger's entanglement in eugenics and related issues, much less the consequences down to today. And that on a day when, frankly more time was diverted to deal with this than was really necessary, had there been a reasonable approach on your side. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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Bornagain77, if I thought for a moment that you were sincerely interested in having a discussion about how I understand the compatibility of evolutionary naturalism and objective morality, I'd be willing to indulge you. You could begin by reading the articles I linked to here.Kantian Naturalist
April 16, 2013
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Box: The issues you list at 92 was it, ideally and abstractly analysed, are not inevitably logically and causally intertwined. As historic fact, however, they were and are, leading to horrors we need to learn from, lest something as bad happens again. I think you will find the concerns by Plato 2350 years ago, highly relevant, cf, here. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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Claudius: slander, corrected before you chose to indulge. Think about that, and about what you just revealed about yourself. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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AF: Let me take a pause. The first pivotal issue with eugenics and linked issues has to do with lessons to be learned on how science, education and elites can become caught up in wrong, leading to enormous pressure to conform to wrong thought by many influential persons and groups to be right and progressive. That itself shows what has happened, so what can happen. So, there is a big lesson there for how society can go very wrong, imagining that a new darkness is light. That itself would be a salutary corrective to some dangerous trends of our day that fly the flags of "Science" and 'Progress." The consensus dressed in the lab coat can be wrong, destructively wrong. Horrifically wrong. That alone, should give us pause. If you doubt me, look, long and hard at the logo for the 2nd eugenics congress. Notice, how it few the flags of science and progress. Then ask, for how many current things something like that is or could be going on today? You, and your friends at TSZ etc will find that a useful exercise. And pretences that you can revisionise history and distance science from eugenics and linked horrors, should stand exposed for what they are. Attempts to forget bitter but inconvenient lessons from a grim past. A past that is not quite dead, as even that attempt to deep six the truth about the past shows so plainly. And, I recall from readings of works written at the time, 80 - 90 years ago, that questioners and objectors -- many of whom were coming from an explicitly Christian or ethical base or were representing despised minorities, were pilloried for being ignorant, stupid, anti-progress fools or the like. For instance, it should be noted that the book at the crux of the Scopes trial, A Civic Biology -- as the title hints -- advocated eugenics in the name of science. (One of the people who objected was a certain G K Chesterton, who wrote a significant work against eugenics, identifying potential dangers and ethical hazards.) Second, there are several serious current science in society issues that are a direct legacy of the eugenics movement and related issues, INCLUDING racism and its consequences. One example is the role too often played in recent decades by IQ tests and their near kin, with troubling implications on the issue of education access and approaches, etc. Third, despite Ms Sanger's actual objection to abortion, the eugenics movement and its stress on overpopulation etc, multiplied by the general undermining of morality tied to evolutionary materialism have had a lot to do with the degradation of our ability to think straight on the value of the lives of the unborn. The global toll dwarfs the 53 millions in the US since 1973, and is connected to sex selection abortions, and to demographic collapse in many countries. Collapse of public thinking and values on sexual morality are decisively undermining family, and the threat is now an existential one. One faced by people whose minds, hearts and consciences in too many cases have been benumbed. And we could go on and on. I will just add, that the rise of evolutionary materialism dressed in a lab coat -- how dare you challenge "science" -- as a dominant ideology (even with many who are nominally nor adherents: aggressive ideologues push that they will only accept something not operationally different) has serious consequences in our civilisation at large. Until there is a serious and sober response, I think it is necessary to highlight the refusal to face the relevant past and its current consequences. And, above, your track record across the day has not been anywhere near good enough, up to and including willfully careless slander that to this time you have not acknowledged or taken back. That, too underscores just how relevant these concerns are. Please do better next time. Good day KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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So, is it okay to publish a "fake but accurate" forgery, if one believes it furthers of a good cause?CLAVDIVS
April 16, 2013
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But KN, does not sincerity require mutual love and respect between people? Exactly how are those moral qualities derived in the dog eat dog world of survival of the fittest?
Matthew 22:39 A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Unfettered Darwinism/Atheism simply devolves into might makes right:
Revealing The "Survival of The Fittest" Origins - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGq-MbmL5c0 Chairman MAO: Genocide Master “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/
bornagain77
April 16, 2013
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LT: Did you take time to see and adjust your remarks for the fact that the question was seriously taken up at 4 above, just for starters? And, that there was significant and sober onward discussion? Nope, that is obvious. You picked up an isolated remark that you could use to play your habitual gotcha game. Telling. KF PS: Mr Byers, do you see what ill-judged and questionable remarks lead to? I ask you to reflect carefully in future. Do, think three times before hitting Send. It is quite evident that while Luther was a great and pivotal person who triggered much good, he was deeply flawed and said and did other things that we should learn from to avoid, not to emulate.kairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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I have a bit of a dilemma that perhaps you could help me with. If one holds that there are no true objective moral values and meanings in the world, but only subjective ones, just how does one derive value for a person from such a atheistic philosophy that maintains transcendent values are illusory?
You'd have to convince me that you're even so much as sincere in posing this "dilemma" before you'll get much of a response from me.Kantian Naturalist
April 16, 2013
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Hi Alan Fox, Regarding British teenage pregnancy rates, I have been doing some checking, and here's what I've found. There have been falls in pregnancy rates in the last few years, but they remained stubbornly high for 40 years before that. See Underage conceptions and abortions in England and Wales 1969-2009: the role of public policy by Professor David Paton (Education and Health, Vol.30, No. 2, 2012, pp. 22-24). The article concluded:
In conclusion, despite recent decreases in the overall underage conception rate, unwanted pregnancy amongst minors in England and Wales has proved remarkably resilient to policy initiatives implemented by different Governments over the past 40 years. Looking forward, the time appears ripe for a shift in focus from policies aimed at reducing the risks associated with underage sexual activity to those which are aimed more directly at reducing the level of underage sexual activity.
The more recent statistics which you quote are summarized in a report entitled, Conceptions in England and Wales, 2011 by the Office of National Statistics. Among other things, it shows the following: * The under 18 conception rate for 2011 is the lowest since 1969, at 30.9 conceptions per thousand women aged 15–17. * The ONS report cherry-picks its base year in the graph in Figure 2 (1990). The fall in teen pregnancy rates looks impressive until you realize that the rate in 1990 was relatively high - see Professor Paton's report. * The graph in Figure 3 is more honest - it goes all the way back to 1975. What it shows is that after years of hovering at or above 40 per 1000, conception rates for women aged 15-17 suddenly started to drop steadily from 2007 onwards. Now they're down to about 30 per 1000. * The under 16 conception rate has decreased over the last decade, from 8.0 conceptions per thousand girls aged 13–15 in 2001 to 6.1 in 2011 despite small rises in some years. However, if you go back to 1969, it was 6.9 per thousand girls, so if you compare 6.9 to 6.1, that's not such a big improvement. * The percentage of under-16 pregnancies terminated by abortion rose from a little over 50% in 1991 to 60% in 2011. But in recent years there has been a slight fall, from 63% in 2010 to 60% in 2011. The report mentions three possible causes of the decline in teen pregnancies: * the programs invested in by successive governments (for example sex and relationships education, improved access to contraceptives and contraceptive publicity); * a shift in aspirations of young women towards education; and * the increased media awareness of young people and the perception of stigma associated with being a teenage mother. The first has been going on for 40 years, so I'm more inclined to favor the second and third explanations. Hope that helps. By the way, here are some resources for Margaret Sanger: http://www.lifedynamics.com/library/#books http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8660/pg8660.html http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1689/1689-h/1689-h.htm (Chapter 4 is pretty awful) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger http://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Defending_the_master_race.html?id=4NoE2VyfN70C&redir_esc=y Got to go. Have a good day.vjtorley
April 16, 2013
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Mr. Fox (or KN), I have a bit of a dilemma that perhaps you could help me with. If one holds that there are no true objective moral values and meanings in the world, but only subjective ones, just how does one derive value for a person from such a atheistic philosophy that maintains transcendent values are illusory?
How much is my body worth? Excerpt: The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body,,,,Together, all of the above (chemicals and minerals) amounts to less than one dollar! http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/worth.asp
i.e. exactly how is value derived for a person in atheism? But in Theism, particularly Christianity, I have no trouble whatsoever figuring out how much humans are worth, since infinite Almighty God, in whose image we are made, has personally shown us how much we mean to him:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Music:
MercyMe – Beautiful - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh7-RSPuAA
notes to the effect of how much we each mean to God:
The Galileo Affair and 'Life' as the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068
Verse and music:
Matthew 16:26 And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul? TobyMac - Lose My Soul http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHKdhAZ9hU
bornagain77
April 16, 2013
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Mr. Fox, So it seems consequence free sex is the key justification for you that guides you to allow people to "get on with their lives", and it is not the inherent worth and dignity of a person made in the image of God that gives you this moral justification to demand respect for people whether they be homosexuals or unborn babies.,,, But seeing that your morality is subjective and not objective, would you object to something like say bestiality? Peter Singer, professor of bioethics at Princeton University, doesn't object: Australia Awards Infanticide Backer Peter Singer Its Highest Honor – 2012 Excerpt: Singer is best known for advocating the ethical propriety of infanticide. But that isn’t nearly the limit of his odious advocacy. Here is a partial list of some other notable Singer bon mots: - Singer supports using cognitively disabled people in medical experiments instead of animals that have a higher “quality of life.” - Singer does not believe humans reach “full moral status” until after the age of two. Singer supports non-voluntary euthanasia of human “non-persons.” - Singer has defended bestiality. - Singer started the “Great Ape Project” that would establish a “community of equals” among humans, gorillas, bonobos, chimpanzees, and orangutans. - Singer supports health-care rationing based on “quality of life.” – Singer has questioned whether “the continuance of our species is justifiable,” since it will result in suffering. – Singer believes “speciesism” — viewing humans as having greater value than animals — is akin to racism. http://www.lifenews.com/2012/06/12/australia-awards-infanticide-backer-peter-singer-its-highest-honor/bornagain77
April 16, 2013
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In regards to homosexuals, and that is a mighty fine moral stand you take. So in regards to unborn babies might I ask, using the same fine moral stand you take for homosexuals:
And is there any justification for preventing them getting on with their lives?
Prevention of unwanted pregnancy is the key to avoiding, or at least minimising the demand for abortion, whether legal or not.Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; and consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics. He is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do. For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. The supporters of this system claimed that it embodied the meaning - the Christian meaning, they insisted - of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and justifying ourselves in our erotic revolt: we would deny that the world had any meaning whatever. Aldous Huxley http://www.facingthechallenge.org/huxley.phpbornagain77
April 16, 2013
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Mr. Fox you ask:
And is there any justification for preventing them getting on with their lives?
In regards to homosexuals, and that is a mighty fine moral stand you take. So in regards to unborn babies might I ask, using the same fine moral stand you take for homosexuals:
And is there any justification for preventing them getting on with their lives?
bornagain77
April 16, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff at 93 :) , You have a way of cutting to the chase!bornagain77
April 16, 2013
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One particularly sad aspect of all this is that most homosexuals seem to be just quiet, gentle souls, who want to be left to get on with their lives.
And is there any justification for preventing them getting on with their lives?Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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There are more schoolgirl pregnancies in the UK now than ever! Goodness knows what the abortion rate is, or to what extent they are pressured to undergo one.
Check your facts, Axel! Au contraire, mon pote!Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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KN:
Sanger was in favor of birth control in part because it would reduce abortions. Source: Woman and the New Race, 1920. X. Contraceptives or Abortion?. Anyone here care to comment?
Dr. Torley commented on this issue:
Libby Anne (part 3): A reply to her article, “How I lost faith in the pro-life movement” - November 26, 2012 Excerpt: It’s official: the increased availability of contraception actually leads to an increase in abortions,,, But what happens if we leave aside regions like Eastern Europe, where an abortion culture artificially boosted the abortion rate? Strangely, we find that the introduction and spread of modern contraceptives into a country often results in an increase in abortions, rather than a decrease. This fact is acknowledged by no less an authority than the Guttmacher Institute. ,,,Explicit acknowledgement that the increased availability of contraception initially leads to more abortions comes from a Guttmacher Institute paper entitled, Relationships Between Contraception and Abortion: A Review of the Evidence (International Family Planning Perspectives, Volume 29, Number 1, March 2003), authors Cicely Marston and John Cleland explain why the increased availability of contraception often leads to an increased demand for abortion in societies where most people are not yet using what they call “highly effective” contraceptive methods. Only when the proportion of people using such methods rises to 80% will demand for abortion start to fall: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/libby-anne-part-3-a-reply-to-her-article-how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement/
bornagain77
April 16, 2013
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@ KN Here is some lateral thinking that bears out Sanger's view that birth control and sex education would reduce the demand for abortion.Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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With you, re the support of women who wish to bear and raise children, Renard, but 'Thank God we now have sex education and birth control?!?!' Thank the Devil! There are more schoolgirl pregnancies in the UK now than ever! Goodness knows what the abortion rate is, or to what extent they are pressured to undergo one. To my mind, the Catholic proscription of birth control qua contraception is, at best, a disproportionate burden in relation to other matters. But abortion? Never! Proscribing contraception seems to me rather like requiring clergy to be celibate, but not take a vow of poverty. Christ said the first was not attainable by everyone, yet his teachings concerning the desirability of poverty on the part of his followers are pretty uniform. How much more so, clergy? It seems that deceitfulness is the middle name of the campaigning atheist. They trumpet about a womans' right over her own body! Pardon me, but she's brought into sentience someone else's poor wee body. 'She wasn't afraid of the bull, but she's afraid of the calf', as the Irish say. The homosexual lobby rave on about diversity (heterogeneity), rainbows and the like, yet if they had their way, rainbows would be just one colour; at least, they would, if they were honest enough to be consistent, instead of claiming to be champions of both homogeneity and heterogeneity. But it shows the kind of fascistic double-speak they are capable of, as they demonize their critics. Oh, the irony! They want to have their bread and eat it, and everyone else's too, in their drive for young children to be given a very strange kind of sex education. Yet their lobby consists of, yes, an educated elite, of high status, very wealthy and powerful individuals. So much so that, Cameron was going to slip through a bill categorising sex education under the rubric of 'science', in order to be able to make it unlawful for parents to withdraw their children from the classes - all without going through any form of parliamentary scrutiny whatsoever simply bypassing the democratic process. Maybe they've got their way. One particularly sad aspect of all this is that most homosexuals seem to be just quiet, gentle souls, who want to be left to get on with their lives. Rather like the rest of us do! Without their coercive, political ministrations in government, particularly re our education system.Axel
April 16, 2013
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"Here’s a fun fact: Sanger was in favor of birth control in part because it would reduce abortions...Anyone here care to comment?"
Isn't it better to prevent the breeding of undesirables than to be forced to dispose of their offspring? It seems like a rather pragmatic solution. The holocaust could have been prevented with the similar administration of such a practicality.Chance Ratcliff
April 16, 2013
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There are several issues at hand here: - eugenics - Darwinism - racism - sexual freedom - abortion Of course I do agree that all these issues are to be taken serious, but I cannot relate to the view that these issues are all necessarily intertwined. To be clear, Margaret Sanger and her racist and eugenic ideals are simply repulsive.Box
April 16, 2013
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Here's a fun fact: Sanger was in favor of birth control in part because it would reduce abortions. Source: Woman and the New Race, 1920. X. Contraceptives or Abortion?. Anyone here care to comment?Kantian Naturalist
April 16, 2013
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KF at 72:
The gotcha games continue.
No gotcha games at all. Byers flagrantly says that Luther's virulent anti-semitism is "fair and square," if "a little rough and tough," and no one makes a peep. On this thread of moral huffery. Not a peep. So, there's no gotcha, there's only what is. As long as we're criticizing the words and views of people, it should be only fair to bring in the words and views of a regular commenter here. I will be the first -- apparently, sadly, tellingly -- to have to denounce Byers' views as morally wicked. Please do better.LarTanner
April 16, 2013
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...a mistaken cite from 80 years ago in documents hard to track down and confirm...
??? Took me about 30 seconds with a Google search!Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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@ KF I'm puzzled why you think eugenics is a problem today. No-one, so far as I am aware, of any political influence or standing is advocating a eugenics program. We all agree, don't we, that attempting to control other people's fertility and rights to raise children would be abhorrent.Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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AF: you are now clearly an irresponsible person. You know I directly cited your personal attack by direct implication, as the immediate step to stating that that behaviour was unacceptable. I suggest you start from comment 35 addressed to you directly. Go down in succession to 64 where Box picked up one of my remarks on the likelihood that the cite was an error, and so forth. Then, note that across today you have manged to never soberly acknowledge and discuss that here is a serious problem regarding eugenics that needs to be addressed on its merits. The underlying very real issue and concern. Then look at your attempt to imply that the only ID supportive person with concerns was Box. I hope you will at length be able to at least admit that you have misrepresented the truth, not about a mistaken cite from 80 years ago in documents hard to track down and confirm, but here and now in thread. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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DiEb: As you saw, across today, the likelihood of an error in a cite taken it seems from secondary sources, was checked up and corrected. The underlying concern, the role of eugenics and linked issues in the work of Sanger among many others, is most definitely a legitimate problem, and one that needs to be squarely faced. You have seen on one side a check-up and correction as the evidence came in on balance. On the other, refusal to accept or acknowledge tha there is a real problem. Tha tis revealing. So I am not concerned with alleged parallels with "fake but accurate," which IIRC was put up in a case where it was neither true nor legitimate. (FYI: Mr Bush did his National Guard service in aircraft that were -- by today's standards -- dangerous and had a horrific crash and fatality rate comparable to what is making the Indian Air Force retire the Mig 21 now. In addition, he was flying COMBAT AIR PATROLS in the Cold war era, less than a decade after the Cold War nearly went white hot over Cuba, and in the general neighbourhod of Cuba. Other circumstances alluded to in the faked letters were evidently not true. And BTW, to be a fighter pilot,itself answers decisively in the negative to many of the widely circulated snide accusations made against Mr Bush. So, I would retire the "fake but accurate" rhetoric.) I think there are some pretty serious issues ont eh table regarding science ands society on the table including eugenics, "the self-direction of human evolution," that need to be faced. I see above, scant sign that this is being done by those ever so eager to pounce on and make the most of an admitted error, which speaks volumes. I think, on balance that you have come across as a fairly serious person over time, could you please help us all face the serious matters that lie beneath the issues and concerns? Maybe, the new clip by BA can help us focus. I snip a key part, without necessarily endorsing all that is in the clip, which makes some pretty disturbing reasding:
Under the banner of “reproductive freedom,” Sanger subscribed to nearly all of the eugenic views . . . She sought to ban reproduction of the unfit and regulate reproduction for everybody else. She scoffed at the soft approach of the “positive” eugenicists, deriding it as mere “cradle competition” between the fit and the unfit. “More children from the fit, less from the unfit — that is the chief issue of birth control,” she frankly wrote in her 1922 book The Pivot of Civilization. (The book featured an introduction by Wells, in which he proclaimed, “We want fewer and better children…and we cannot make the social life and the world-peace we are determined to make, with the ill-bred, ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens that you inflict on us.” Two civilizations were at war: that of progress and that which sought a world “swamped by an indiscriminate torrent of progeny.” . . .
There are serious issues to be addressed. It is regrettable that BA made an error in a citation, but debating that error does not make the real issue go away. It is that issue that I think I need to highlight, having duly noted across the course of the day, progress in recognising and warranting that the citation was credibly erroneous. However, the underlying concerns are NOT an error. They need to be faced. KF PS: I seem to have garbled a paragraph to AF, let me clean up a bit:
if you [AF] are willing to do such [--> misrepresent directly accessible facts], then your declared concerns -- about what is evidently an innocent error that on being checked behind the scenes was admitted and withdrawn and on which the progress of that background checking has been indicated step by step across the day [as that process proceeded], has been notified, so that it was identified as uncertain then likely in error then accepted as in error -- are evidently a front for something else. Especially, when such a misrepresentation is multiplied by your [AF's] evasiveness and unwillingness to face a much more serious underlying issue; which is the true problem that the cite was in error about.
kairosfocus
April 16, 2013
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And I would surmise that infanticide was practiced for hundreds of thousands of years before that, in many cultures.
Not in Ancient Egypt, interestingly. Thank God we now have sex education, birth control and a social security system that supports women who wish to bear and raise children. (Well, in some countries, we do!)Alan Fox
April 16, 2013
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