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Provine and Nelson at Cornell, November 12: If Neo-Darwinism Fails, Then What?

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Provine/Nelson

As an undergraduate studying evolutionary biology — like many other such students, I suppose — I read Will Provine’s classic The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, 1971), a standard history of the laying of the mathematical and conceptual foundations, in the work of Fisher, Haldane, and Wright, of what later came to be known as the Evolutionary Synthesis (i.e., textbook neo-Darwinism).

When Chicago reissued the book in 2001, Provine added a remarkable Afterword. With characteristic candor, he wrote that “my views have changed dramatically.” Natural selection, for instance, Provine no longer saw as a “force” or “mechanism” of any kind:

Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets. (pp. 199-200)

On November 12, Provine is sponsoring a debate (with me) at Cornell University, where the question on the table is this: If textbook neo-Darwinism — the Evolutionary Synthesis — fails, what follows? I’ll argue that ID gains support; Will tells me he’s going to argue that ID gets bupkis. But we’ll start by summarizing where we agree about the shortcomings of the standard theory.

The debate, moderated by Allen MacNeill, will occur in Room B45 of Warren Hall, at 4:30 PM on Monday, November 12. A dinner will follow at the Hans Bethe House.

Comments
The debate is open to the public and free. No recording is planned at this time.bevets
November 3, 2007
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Personally I've long thought that we need a new term to encapsulate all proposed Darwinian mechanisms. I'm pretty sure many people use RM+NS to indirectly refer to everything but extending RM+NS is likely just to confuse people. I like "RV+NS" myself.Patrick
November 3, 2007
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From the MacNeill blog:
So, next time you hear or read a creationist or IDer cite "RM & NS" as the sole explanation for evolutionary change, point out to them and everyone else that there are at least 47 different sources of variation (including "random mutations")...
As has been pointed out, these are all stochastic in nature and can therefore be classified as mutations (i.e., undirected, purposeless changes). The forest is not being seen for the trees. The bottom line is that you still have to get from a program like this, to one like this, with no planning, design, or foresight, only random events.GilDodgen
November 3, 2007
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I thought the following excerpts from Professor MacNeill might be good review for what was proposed by MacNeill Nov 2006. He commented in response to "We is Junk" Nov 10, 2006 post by PaV.
Given the foregoing, it appears to me that there are four (possibly five) functionally different kinds of DNA coding sequences: (1) translatable sequences: those DNA sequences that are both transcribed into mRNA and later translated into proteins, regardless of function (these can be further subdivided into proteins that participate in non-DNA related biochemical pathways and those that directly regulate DNA, but those seem to me to be classifications of the proteins, not the DNA sequences that code for them); (2) transcribable sequences: those DNA sequences that are transcribed into RNA (i.e. rRNA, tRNA, etc.), but are not later translated into proteins/polypeptide chains. Again, what the RNAs do after being transcribed is not a function of the DNA, but rather of the RNAs, and therefore should not really be used to classify DNA coding sequences; (3) binding sequences: those DNA sequences that are not transcribed into RNA nor translated into protein, but which function as binding sites for regulatory molecules such as repressor proteins, homeotic gene products, etc. While such sequences do not code for the production of a transcribed or translated gene product, they still participate in the regulation of other genes by serving as regulatory binding sites; and (4) non-binding sequences: those DNA sequences that are not transcribed into RNA, not translated into protein, nor function as binding sites for regulatory moelcules. Such sequences would include highly repetitive sequences, tandom repeats, “spacer DNA”, pseudogenes, retroviral and transposon inserts (both “dead” and potentially “alive”), etc. This latter category could be further subdivided into “functional” non-coding/non-binding DNA sequences versus “non-functional/parastitic” non-coding/non-binding DNA sequences, depending on whether they arise as part of the functional architecture of the DNA (primarily of eukaryotes), or whether they arise as side-effects of the action of parasitic genetic elements, such as retroviruses or transposons. There may be other categories of DNA sequences that have other functions, but right now I can’t think of any. Therefore, this is how I intend to teach the concept of a “gene” to my students at Cornell from now on.
How much has changed since then? link: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/we-is-junkMichaels7
November 3, 2007
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I don't think these mechanisms would be listed unless there was positive evidence they were at least potentially effective. So I would finish this sentence: "each supposed process of new variation will eventually have to be dealt with to show they haven’t produced anything" beyond the trivial predicted by ID.Patrick
November 3, 2007
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jhaugan Go 'Riders. Ex-pat halfway between you and bfast in the land of Oilers and Eskimos.Charlie
November 3, 2007
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I think someone should start a thread on the super mice or what is being referred to as Mighty Mouse. This is obviously a result of intelligent design but the point I believe should be discussed is what would happen to the ecology if such genes got out into the wild. I find it scary that all of a sudden we have a dramatically physically superior organism. While a mouse is a small mammal and represent significant problems, what would happen if the same genetic changes were to appear in much larger animals, especially predators. Then there will be the issue of the engineering of the human genome and the consequences of humans having these increased capabilities. This is apparently a simple modification. What are we in for?jerry
November 3, 2007
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re: what we see on MacNeill’s website is probably an attempt to spam in order to confuse the debate. Kudos: I've seen this tactic over and over again, Darwinists, when nailed hard with hard empirical evidence, will obfuscate with peripheral evidence that hasn't been brought into full light yet,,, Thus, in my experience on the web, I keep their feet in the fire by repeatedly returning to the many evidences that are conclusively proven. They continually try to hide in the shadows of peripheral data and, when I hit them with more hard empirical facts, they squirm uncomfortably in the light of thoroughly understood data,,,LOL,,,,kinda of sinister of them don't you think,,,LOL So for some unsolicited advice from me,, don't be afraid of their fancy shadowy rhetoric and keep dragging them back into the light of what is thoroughly understood.bornagain77
November 3, 2007
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The proof of the limitation of their 46+ processes to affect any significant change in the genome is in the pudding. And there is no pudding. Can you imagine any Darwinist or what MacNeill or others will want to be called remaining silent if there were any pudding. If there was a concrete example of the power of these 46+ processes do you think we would hear the end of it. I must be deaf because I do not hear them barking. As I have always said the best metaphor for the materialist approach is Sherlock Holmes' dog barking in the night. There was no dog barking in Silver Blase and there are no materialists barking and what we see on MacNeill's website is probably an attempt to spam in order to confuse the debate. However, each supposed process of new variation will eventually have to be dealt with to show they haven't produced anything.jerry
November 3, 2007
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I just remembered that Dr. Behe points out in EoE that "every type" of random variation that malaria and HIV have went through failed to produce any notable complexity that would prove evolution,,,so that should invalidate many of the other variations he talks about in "the list" So between Dr. Behe's and Dr. Sanford's evidences you should be able to present the proper hard empirical evidences to invalidate most all of their conjectures they have and shall put forth. It really is amazing that they can't see the fact that random variation being disproven at its most basic level (SNPs) invalidates all other higher level variations no matter what type they are!!! Sigh,,,,Oh well,,,at any rate the other types of genetic variations they may bring up are covered by empirical evidence as well.bornagain77
November 3, 2007
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I glanced over "the list" and it still boils down to a random variation of some sort,,,Sanford in His Book Genetic Entropy goes over many of these variation and points to his experimental work in plant genetics showing how each decreases information from parent species! Of course, as DaveScot did in his reading of Sanfords book, you may have to clean the data of the "stretching" Sanford gave it to fit his bias of YEC. I noticed they tried to throw some environmental stuff in there...but this looks like a monumental task of obfuscation,,,because think about it,,,,at the end of all their rhetoric and smoke and mirrors,o they still have to demonstrate flexibility of the Genome to Single Nucletide poltmorphisms (SNP) The underlying foundation of evolution demands flexibility at its most basic level (SNPs) for any of the more complex random variations to even be considered plausible in the first place! The plan fact is that conservation of information WILL hold no matter what level they try to find it on...As Dembski and Gitt have clearly pointed out...NO natural random process is going to generate complex specified information!bornagain77
November 3, 2007
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I have read Macneill's "list" and I am really amazed! I knew darwinists were losing their reasoning abilities completely, but I couldn't suspect they were so ahead in the process. This guy is even better then Dawkins! I have not the time now to comment in detail, but just to begin: 1) Of the 46 "items" proudly listed by Mr. Macneill, about half, perhaps more (I really have not the time now to count) are not "mechanisms" of variation, but simply descriptions of "results" of variation. The variation, obviously, must always be caused by RM or similar random mechanism.Consider, for instance, the following group: "changes in promoter or terminator sequences (increasing or decreasing binding) • changes in repressor binding (in prokaryotes); increasing or decreasing binding to operator sites • changes in repressor binding (in prokaryotes); increasing or decreasing binding to inducers • changes in repressor binding (in prokaryotes); increasing or decreasing binding to corepressors Yes, changes, but cuased by what? Usually, RM. 2) Obviously, apart from single nucleotide mutation, there are indeed other random mechanisms of variation: they are, essentially, duplication, inversion, deletion, fusion, and similar. The only difference is that they involve big blocks of DNA (up to a whole genome) instead of a single "bit" (in the sense of nucleotide). They are, anyway, perfectly equivalent to RM as to their power to create information, indeed probably worse. After all, if you have to write a random new code, it's probably easier to randomly change each single bit at a time than to work shifting big blocks of code randomly. 3) As far as ID is cioncerned, "any" random variation has the same value, and every ID arguments applies just the same to "any" random variation. 4) Mechanisms as lateral gene transfer, sexual recombination, etc, are mechanisms which can only mix information which already exists. They have an important role in creating variation between individuals, and in bacteria are certainly responsible form many interesting phenomena (so that bacteria can probably be considered a "collective" genetic organism). But they are absolutely unable, for instance, to generate a "new" protein or function, unless that comes randomly (and then, the previous point applies). 5) Regarding the 3 mechanisms "that result" from the above list, "natural selection, sexual selection, and random genetic drift", obviously only natural selection has at least a meaning (although ambiguous). I will not comment about sexual selection, because I am not sure to really understand what he means, but I would like to mention, again, that genetic drift does not select anything, is only a proces of random reshuffling if neutral mutations, and, whatever its relevance in the real world, it is completely irrelevant for the purpose of creating information. So, what are we back to? RM (or, more correctly, RV, but there is really no significant difference for the ID arguments) and NS.gpuccio
November 3, 2007
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jhaugan & bFast, please! Saskatchewan and the Yukon are so much closer than Tasmania (That's in Australia, not Tanzania in Africa ... which is also a very long way away!) to go and see these cutting edge dodge and parry events. ID is global: I hope with the technology that is now available that we are able to quickly and adequately share our insights, victories and setbacks. The global ID community is a vast resource that is just being tapped. There is so much to offer and learn.AussieID
November 2, 2007
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Default question: are they recording this and will the audio be available? This should be a standard part of agreement.geoffrobinson
November 2, 2007
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It appears they are not retrenching but dramatically expanding the naturalistic sources of random variation. Random variation was always the Achilles Heel of modern evolutionary theory and MacNeill and Provine know this and have provided a mouth full that dwarfs point mutations. This looks like a serious attempt to jump to the head of the line in the evolution debate. Each will have to be assessed one by one to see how much substance there is and not just smoke and mirrors. Paul Nelson better be prepared.jerry
November 2, 2007
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Why do you tease us? Is the debate open to the public? Where can I purchase tickets? Will it be recorded and posted online?bevets
November 2, 2007
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It's quite a list of sources of variation. It would seem that non-experts are no longer qualified to doubt the theory given the apparent complexity of the subject. On the other hand, David Berlinksi says you can learn everything you need to know in a few hours. Who is right?russ
November 2, 2007
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By the way it was announced today or yesterday that they have created super mice that live longer, breed longer, run for longer periods of time, have less weight and have other positive features. This is all through the alteration of one gene. I will leave it for others here to see how many changes were made to the gene to get this effect. For example, see "www.sciencedaily.com"jerry
November 2, 2007
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Here is the source of evolutionary change according to Provine and MacNeill "In my earlier post on the "engines of evolution" I promised a list of the real sources of variation that provide the raw material for evolutionary change. It's taken me a while, but here it is. This list includes "random mutation,' of course, but also 46 other sources of variation in either the genotypes or phenotypes of living organisms. Note that the list is not necessarily exhaustive, nor are any of the entries in the list necessarily limited to the level of structure or function under which they are listed. On the contrary, this is clearly a list of the minimum sources of variation between individuals in populations. A comprehensive list would almost certainly include hundreds (and possibly thousands) of more detailed processes. Also, the list includes processes that change either genotypes or phenotypes or both, but does not include processes that are combinations of other processes in the list, again implying that a comprehensive listing would be much longer and more detailed. Anyway, here it is, listed according to level of structure and function:" Rather than list them go to MacNeill's blog for them. It will keep a lot of people talking for quite a while. http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/jerry
November 2, 2007
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Why do you tease us? Is the debate public? Where can I purchase tickets? Will it be recorded and posted online?bevets
November 2, 2007
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Provine seems to have gone a bit far in dismissing natural selection but it would definitely be more apt to call it natural deselection. It certainly works pretty well at culling disastrous random mutations. I've no doubt worth mentioning that natural deselection is responsible for deselecting less disastrous but still disadvantageous alleles such as deselecting black bears in the arctic or deselecting small finch beaks in drought conditions.DaveScot
November 2, 2007
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jhugan -- or they live in the Yukon (just south of the north pole) and have two children to feed.bFast
November 2, 2007
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Repeat after me: "We will be recording this and putting it online the very next day for folks who can't attend for various reasons (like, say, they live in Saskatchewan and have 4 children to feed)."jhaugan
November 2, 2007
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Wow. The fact that this debate is even happening looks like a tipping point to me. At the very least, those Darwinists who are aware of the problems of NDE are retrenching at new positions and surrendering the old ones.Jehu
November 2, 2007
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Paul, If Provine is to argue that ID gets bupkis, and it seems that the quote you gave has him saying that natural selection also gets bupkis, then be sure to ask him what the he thinks the mechanism behind evolution is. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.StuartHarris
November 2, 2007
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If not Evolution,,,What Then? HMMMM, Well, since life did not evolve by natural means then of necessity that means (at least) information was put into life at some point or at some points in time... This is an obvious truth since naturalism is falsified in generation of information.... Since science relentlessly pursues a more complete understanding of the truth,,,the next logical primary questions to be asked would be, At what time was the information implanted? The next, by what method was information implanted into life? If the timing and method of implementation of (at least) information can be ascertained to a high degree of certainty, then we may begin drawing inferences and asking basic questions about the nature and personality of the "Information Implanter". Of course there are probably many other things that can be added to this list,,,but these few questions are the most basic answer to the "What Then?" question asked. That is that is the course primary investigation will take as far as the primary concern of biological science is concerned.bornagain77
November 2, 2007
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Also, just remembered. When Professor MacNeill visited here last for a robust exchange, he stated that "Neo-Darwinism is superceeded."Michaels7
November 2, 2007
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Congrats to MacNeill, Provine and Cornell for this much needed debate. I hope the debate is recorded for distribution. All the best Paul. I hope it opens some eyes.Michaels7
November 2, 2007
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