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Psychologist offers a drive-by psychiatric diagnosis of ID guys

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<em>Teapot</em> Cobalt Blue From Jeremy P. Shapiro, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University, at Raw Story:

Yet many science deniers do cite empirical evidence. The problem is that they do so in invalid, misleading ways. Psychological research illuminates these ways.

As a psychotherapist, I see a striking parallel between a type of thinking involved in many mental health disturbances and the reasoning behind science denial. As I explain in my book “Psychotherapeutic Diagrams,” dichotomous thinking, also called black-and-white and all-or-none thinking, is a factor in depression, anxiety, aggression and, especially, borderline personality disorder.

This same type of thinking can be seen among creationists. They seem to misinterpret any limitation or flux in evolutionary theory to mean that the validity of this body of research is fundamentally in doubt. For example, the biologist James Shapiro (no relation) discovered a cellular mechanism of genomic change that Darwin did not know about. Shapiro views his research as adding to evolutionary theory, not upending it. Nonetheless, his discovery and others like it, refracted through the lens of dichotomous thinking, result in articles with titles like, “Scientists Confirm: Darwinism Is Broken” by Paul Nelson and David Klinghoffer of the Discovery Institute, which promotes the theory of “intelligent design.” Shapiro insists that his research provides no support for intelligent design, but proponents of this pseudoscience repeatedly cite his work as if it does.More.

Dr. Jeremy Shapiro apparently does not realize that the second rule of medicine* is, “First, who’s the patient?” One does not diagnose a crowd of people one has never met, whose personal histories one does not know.

He is also obviously unfamiliar with the mass of material coming back that confirms evolution as a history but does not confirm the standard, classic Darwinian interpretation thereof. There would be many fewer dissenters otherwise.

But then, why let inconvenient facts get in the way of a good theory? Tenured Darwinians defend their theory regardless. Those who would defend them do the same, it seems.

Jeremy Shapiro assumes that James Shapiro’s work cannot provide support for a view that Shapiro himseslf does not endorse. That’s an error. Such situations are quite common because no one “owns” basic facts.

My diagnosis of a crowd of people who might vaguely remind one of  Jeremy Shapiro: Those who cannot deal with a fact base often build an elaborate drama around why it doesn’t really exist or else doesn’t mean what it means, conscripting key players into unfamiliar roles and generalizing about the rest.

The item linked above was originally published at The Conversation.

Note 1: The first rule of medicine is, “First, do no harm.” primum non nocere

Note 2:Re RawStory’s boast on a banner at the page: “Don’t let Silicon Valley control what you see. Get more stories like this in your inbox, every day.” Relax, guys. In this case, I probably wouldn’t know the difference between you and SV. I represent the muffled voice of careful, personal observation over decades. You others can fight it out among yourselves.

See also: Some thoughts on James Shapiro’s valuable work: Natural genetic engineering? Natural popcorn? Or something more important?

Comments
Jdk,
It does a disservice to people with genuine mental illness who experience delusions to use the word in such a colloquial way. It’s hard to take your comments seriously when they are so hyperbolic, and misrepresent a serious mental health condition.
I couldn’t agree more. It calls into question why this immature childish tactic is repeatedly being used. My thought is that it is easier to do so rather than try to raise an intelligent, logical and rational response. But, as I have said, it says more about those that use this tactic, and not in a good way, than it does about those it is used against.Allan Keith
May 10, 2018
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as to AK: "Obviously you are incapable of having an honest, constructive and civil discussion with anyone who disagrees with you." Says the man who holds onto a worldview that denies free will.
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html "Indeed, fundamentally religious or spiritual metaphysical beliefs are required for doing proper scientific research; one must fundamentally hold that the universe is orderly as if that order was under the direction of a single will and not multiple competing wills, chaos or chance; that unseen laws govern physical behaviors universally; that force values are constant through time and space; that humans have some sort of correlating capacity to correctly observe and understand that order and those values; that truth exists and can be catalogued and understood (as facts); that humans have some sort of top down power of the physiology of their bodies and chemical makeup of their brain in order to supplant erroneous ideas of the physical world with ones corrected via observation and experiment; that logic and mathematics are metaphysical arbiters of true and false conclusions and calculations, etc. None of that fundamental framework for science can be rationally extracted from an atheistic/materialist ideological foundation,,," - William J Murray – Oct. 2016 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/science-is-intelligent-design/
i.e. Atheistic Materialism itself renders atheists themselves "incapable of having an honest, constructive and civil discussion." Atheistic Materialism is a delusional worldview and those who expose it whilst claiming to be trying to have a 'reasonable' discussion are, by definition, delusional., since their worldview rules reasonable discussion out right off the bat.
(1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain (determinism). (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD THE ARGUMENT FROM REASON - John M. DePoe Excerpt: (CS) Lewis closes the third chapter of Miracles with this conclusion: Reason is given before Nature and on reason our concept of Nature depends. Our acts of inference are prior to our picture of Nature almost as the telephone is prior to the friend’s voice we hear by it. When we try to fit these acts into the picture of nature we fail. The item which we put into that picture and label "Reason" always turns out to be somehow different from the reason we ourselves are enjoying and exercising as we put it in. [. . .] But the imagined thinking which we put into the picture depends—because our whole idea of Nature depends—on thinking we actually doing, not vice versa. This is the prime reality, on which the attribution of reality to anything else rests. If it won’t fit into Nature, we can’t help it. We will certainly not, on that account, give it up. If we do, we should be giving up Nature too. http://www.reasonsforgod.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/DePoe-The-Argument-from-Reason.pdf
And as CS Lewis 'predicted', reason is found to precede nature in that free will is now found to be integral to quantum mechanics: ,,, Although Einstein denied he had free will, quantum mechanics itself falsifies Einstein's contention that he had no free will. As Steven Weinberg states in the following article, (in quantum mechanics) humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level.,,, the instrumentalist approach (in quantum mechanics) turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.,,, In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/trouble-with-quantum-mechanics/
And as leading experimental physicist Anton Zeilinger states in the following video, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.”
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in a certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
Thus, despite Einstein's denial of his own free will, the fact of the matter is that experimental evidence from quantum mechanics, once again, refutes Einstein.
Albert Einstein vs. Quantum Mechanics and His Own Mind – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxFFtZ301j4
Verse:
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together,",,,
bornagain77
May 10, 2018
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Folks, there is another relevant sense of delusion, tied to ideologies, worldviews and cultural agendas that may be entrenched. In effect, if the light in you is darkness, how great is your darkness. Such grand, Plato's Cave delusion leads to a life or an institution or a community increasingly out of touch with and resistant to reality: because I tell the truth you are unable to acknowledge the things I say. For instance, evolutionary materialism radically undermines responsible rational freedom and through its inherent amorality and radical relativisation of morals, knowledge, logic and more it injects inescapable, deep self-referential incoherence. This destabilises our whole civilisation and is leading to ever-increasing disconnect from reality. In turn that triggers institutionalised cognitive dissonance and defences that fend off corrective truth. Where, because of that might and manipulation make 'right' 'rights' 'truth' 'knowledge' 'logic' 'science' and much more, we have many fellow-travellers who end up enabling. And, he who would dare say stop, stop, danger seems to be an uncouth fool, standing there in the wilderness in a silly camel's hair coat and saying what does not carry the imprimatur of today's new magisterium. If we do not wake up from such grand delusion-driven marches of folly, the crumbling cliff-edge underfoot may well give way without further warning. With nukes in play, God help us. It seems our psychologist friend needs to look a lot closer to home if he would use his technical knowledge to the good. KFkairosfocus
May 10, 2018
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Re 20 and others: to quote Inigo Montoya:
Delusional: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It does a disservice to people with genuine mental illness who experience delusions to use the word in such a colloquial way. It's hard to take your comments seriously when they are so hyperbolic, and misrepresent a serious mental health condition.jdk
May 10, 2018
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Two people with different opinions does not mean that one of them must be delusional.
No, but two people, one with facts and science for support, the other with nothing but personal bias, means that one of them may be delusional.ET
May 10, 2018
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Allan Keith:
Obviously you are incapable of having an honest, constructive and civil discussion with anyone who disagrees with you.
Irony meters are explodingET
May 10, 2018
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@Truth Will Set You Free, author of #16: Thank you for enunciating the plain and simple truth that transgenders are simply experiencing some sort of denial of plain reality. @bornagain77, author of #15: Excellent quotes and videos! Spot on! It's plain that the atheist worldview is inconsistent. @Allen Keith, author of #7. I agree with the general sentiment of this statement: "I don’t think that IDists, theists, materialists, evolutionist or atheists are delusional, insane or suffer mental illness. They just have different viewpoints." However, if you go by the definition of "delusion" as "a mistaken or unfounded opinion or idea", then I would say, yes, atheists are suffering from a delusion, in that atheism is a mistaken and completely unfounded opinion. However, I agree with you that we shouldn't call those who oppose our viewpoint as "delusional" since that seems to blanket them with harmful name-calling. I oppose all attempts at painting other groups (IDists, Creationists, Neo-Darwinists, atheists, humanists) with labels (such as "delusional", "insane", "mentally ill") as wrong and harmful. @AK who said: "Two people with different opinions does not mean that one of them must be delusional." - I agree. @AK who said "If I have to make some minor accommodations to allow them to function in society and be happy, who is it harming?" - Letting an adult believe in a fantasy is not helpful. Who is it harming? Mostly of all, it's harming the transgender person, that's who. I think that perpetuating a denial of plain reality harms people -- knowing the truth about reality, and living by it, is *always* better than living a lie, which is what one sadly does to themselves when choosing to become a different gender than the one plainly expressed in their bodies (Note, I'm leaving aside discussions of the intersex for now -- the transgender movement is not about intersex, I would say it's probably disingenuous to assert that the transgender movement is about intersex).eddified
May 10, 2018
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Allan, that you refuse to accept the reality of an all loving God is proof enough that you are delusional and that nobody should take you seriously. You are probably pro abortion, in favour of radical sex education and in favour of the redefinition of marriage. It is people like you who are leading to the downfall of our civilization.Charles McVety
May 10, 2018
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BA77,
That you would not accept the clear insanity that is readily apparent in your chosen worldview is in fact another mental disorder that is known as denialism...
Obviously you are incapable of having an honest, constructive and civil discussion with anyone who disagrees with you. I will leave you to your own absolute certainties and limit my interactions to those who are interested in having discussions with those that they may disagree with.Allan Keith
May 10, 2018
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as to: "That BA77 would invoke the term delusion and mental disorder simply because I disagree with him is simply a dishonest rhetorical tactic, and says more about him than it does about me. I prefer not to play these childish games." No, I call your worldview exactly as I have seen it. Your worldview is completely barking mad insane. It is not a rhetorical trick nor is it me playing childish games with you. I am deadly serious with you since the implications of you living out your insane worldview are far worse than you can possibly imagine right now. (i.e. separation from God for eternity! i.e. Hell!) That you would not accept the clear insanity that is readily apparent in your chosen worldview is in fact another mental disorder that is known as denialism, Denialism is the chief cause for the worsening progression of underlying mental disorders and/or addictions.,, Since the underlying disorder and/or addiction is never honestly addressed. As to your claim that brain structure establishes gender identity. ,,, Another proof that we have a immaterial mind that is not reducible to brain states is the fact that the focused attention of the immaterial mind has now been shown to be able to alter the structure of the brain. This is known as 'brain plasticity':
The Case for the Soul: Quantum Biology - (7:25 minute mark - The Mind is able to modify the brain - Brain Plasticity, and Mindfulness control of DNA expression) https://youtu.be/6_xEraQWvgM?t=446
As to your claim that: "A mind independent of the physical brain has not been demonstrated with anything approaching compelling evidence." Actually, the evidence from Near Death Experiences is, besides compelling, overwhelming. For instance:
Near-Death Experiences: 30 Years of Research – 2014 Excerpt: Improved Mental Functions With an Impaired Brain Bruce Greyson, M.D. and director of the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia, said NDEs are reliable because the accounts by near-death experiencers (NDErs) of these events remain unchanged over time. He compared a group of NDErs’ accounts about their NDEs made 20 years apart and found that they remained closely identical over time. Greyson believes that NDEs are an indication that the mind is independent of the brain because impaired brain functions would be expected during the clinical situation that the NDErs underwent, but his research found no corresponding impairment of mental functions in NDErs. http://www.educatinghumanity.com/2014/07/after-life-nde.html Pam Reynold’s comments on seeing here temporal body during her Near Death Experience at the 9:20 mark of the following video “It (my body) looked like pretty much what it was. As in void of life.” The NDE of Pam Reynolds – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k
Whereas on the other hand, without any empirical evidence whatsoever, nor falsification criteria, you defend Darwinian evolution as if your life depended on it.
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ
Your completely unjust and biased standard for evaluating evidence is called hypocrisy.:bornagain77
May 10, 2018
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TWSYF,
AK @ 7: For something to be a delusion it has to contradict empirical evidence.
That is not the common definition of delusion. Here is the one that is most commonly used:
an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. [Oxford]
Two people with different opinions does not mean that one of them must be delusional. A mind independent of the physical brain has not been demonstrated with anything approaching compelling evidence. That BA77 would invoke the term delusion and mental disorder simply because I disagree with him is simply a dishonest rhetorical tactic, and says more about him than it does about me. I prefer not to play these childish games.
An example would be transgender identification. A man who thinks he is a woman suffers from an obvious delusion unless we redefine the terms man and woman, which is what post-modern society is doing.
I don't think that it is as simple as that. Studies have found structural differences in transgendered people as compared to those of people who identify with their genital sex. Whether this is the cause of transgender or is caused by it, I don't know. But if we assume that these structural differences are responsible for transgender, can we really call these people delusional? Personally I don't care. If I have to make some minor accommodations to allow them to function in society and be happy, who is it harming?Allan Keith
May 10, 2018
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AK @ 7: For something to be a delusion it has to contradict empirical evidence. An example would be transgender identification. A man who thinks he is a woman suffers from an obvious delusion unless we redefine the terms man and woman, which is what post-modern society is doing.Truth Will Set You Free
May 10, 2018
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Golly gee whiz, imagine that,, offer a definition of delusion,,,
Delusion a mistaken or unfounded opinion or idea https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/delusion A delusion is a belief that has no evidence in fact — a complete illusion.
and the person with the irrational and delusional worldview immediately denies that he is delusional for believing that worldview, only that he is wrong. Denialism only makes your situation with your delusional worldview worse AK. Get help. You are much sicker than you realize! And are getting sicker! as to:
"Proof would be incontrovertible evidence of the mind existing without a physical brain."
Actually there is far more proof that consciousness is able to exist without the material brain than there is evidence for Darwinian evolution. They are called Near Death Experiences.
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
AK you then appeal to scientific progress to support atheistic materialism and/or naturalism. Once again, unsurprisingly, you are completely wrong. First off, Modern Science was born out of Christian presuppositions, and secondly, the more science has progressed the more the foundational materialistic presuppositons have been falsified:
Theism compared to Naturalism - Major predictions of each Philosophy compared to each other with scientific discoveries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY5ppoqPNVo
You say, without citation, that children believing in Santa Clause is beneficial to children even though Santa Clause is imaginary. Yet, I hold, if your claim is true, that children are not holding onto a complete fabrication but are holding onto "hope" for a good future. Only God possesses that "hope" for a good future. Atheism, with its nihilism, offers no such hope for a good future. Moreover, having "hope" in a good future, (i.e. Near Death Experience therapy), has been shown to dramatically help chronically depressed people.
Knowledge of the afterlife deters suicide. Lessons From the Light by Kenneth Ring and Evelyn Elsaesser p.257-258: As far as I know, the first clinician to make use of NDE material in this context was a New York psychologist named John McDonagh. In 1979, he presented a paper at a psychological convention that described his success with several suicidal patients using a device he called “NDE bibliotherapy.” His “technique” was actually little more than having his patients read some relevant passages from Raymond Moody’s book, Reflections on Life after Life, after which the therapist and his patient would discuss its implications for the latter’s own situation. McDonagh reports that such an approach was generally quite successful not only in reducing suicidal thoughts but also in preventing the deed altogether. … Since McDonagh’s pioneering efforts, other clinicians knowledgeable about the NDE who have had the opportunity to counsel suicidal patients have also reported similar success. Perhaps the most notable of these therapists is Bruce Greyson, a psychiatrist now at the University of Virginia, whose specialty as a clinician has been suicidology. He is also the author of a classic paper on NDEs and suicide which the specialist may wish to consult for its therapeutic implications. (14) Quite apart from the clinicians who have developed this form of what we might call “NDE-assisted therapy,” I can draw upon my own personal experience here to provide additional evidence of how the NDE has helped to deter suicide. The following case,,, http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2015/03/video-lecture-by-john-lennox-explains.html
You claim to live consistently within your worldview. That claim is laughably absurd! Not only do you NOT live consistently within your worldview, it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE to live consistently within atheistic materialism.
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt: ,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3
As mentioned previously in post 1, your worldview is completely insane through and through. A worldview that even makes Alice in Wonderland look rational!
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387 Excerpt: Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God. Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, Paper with references for each claim page; Page 34: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pAYmZpUWFEi3hu45FbQZEvGKsZ9GULzh8KM0CpqdePk/edit
Thus, although the Darwinist firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Bottom line, if God is not real then nothing can be real.bornagain77
May 10, 2018
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BA77,
Atheistic materialists believe that material precedes mind. Whereas Theists believe that Mind precedes material. Since those positions are diametrically opposed, one of those positions, by necessity, must be a false view of reality. i.e. Must be a delusion!
Nonsense. One of these views must be wrong. This does not make the person delusional.
The proof that Atheistic materialism is a delusion comes from the fact that believing that matter precedes mind, as atheists do, leads to catastrophic epistemological failure, i.e. to complete delusional thinking.
A youtube video and your non peer-reviewed musings are not proof. Proof would be incontrovertible evidence of the mind existing without a physical brain. Since this is not possible, all we have is 'we do not understand how consciousness works'. Not understanding is not proof of something else. It is just the lack of understanding. However, given the speed and magnitude with which previously unknown things become known, and the fact that they have all done so without having to resort to supernatural forces, I would not be placing any money on the supernatural being the answer.
Whereas believing mind precedes matter. as Theists do, is shown to be a far more psychologically stable position:
The fact that people who have faith are more "stable" is not proof that the faith is based on reality. Studies have also shown that the entire Santa Clause belief (then non belief) is psychologically positive for children. Even though Santa Clause is not real.
Further proof that Atheistic materialism is a delusion comes from the fact that it is impossible for atheists themselves to live as if their worldview were actually true (see bottom of post 8).
Nonsense. I live as if it were true. However, I would also not be upset if it were proven not to be true.Allan Keith
May 10, 2018
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Jeremy Shapiro:
In my observations, I see science deniers engage in dichotomous thinking about truth claims. In evaluating the evidence for a hypothesis or theory, they divide the spectrum of possibilities into two unequal parts: perfect certainty and inconclusive controversy. Any bit of data that does not support a theory is misunderstood to mean that the formulation is fundamentally in doubt, regardless of the amount of supportive evidence.
What rich irony that Mr. Shapiro has done exactly what he claims others are doing. What has he done? He has "[divided] the spectrum of possibilities into two unequal parts: perfect certainty [i.e., scientists] and inconclusives controversy [i.e., science denialists]" Where Mr. Shapiro goes wrong is by not fully understanding where this lack of acceptance of scientific thinking arises. It arises because certain first principles are violated. In the case of global warming, we all know that the primary sources of energy in our biosphere come from two places: the sun (nuclear fusion) and the core of the earth (nuclear fission). We know that the orbit of the earth and its precession around its axis also affect temperature--the Milankovitch Cycle, e.g. We know that water vapor is a much more powerful contributor to 'warming' than CO2, whose only 'affect' is indirectly through its supposed affect in producing additional water vapor. Why should anyone mindlessly accept what becomes 'consensus' thinking when their scientific questions remain insufficiently answered? Look at HIV. The preeminent scholar of viruses in the US, Peter Duesberg, says that the HIV theory of AIDS causation does not conform to long accepted criteria for what constitutes viral infection and what does not. He's pushed aside. Now the man responsible for this possible fraud [if HIV is an active, infective virus, a true virus and not a passenger virus, then why hasn't an HIV vaccine been produced in almost 35 years?], Robert Gallo, is down under in Australia "discovering" a "cousin" of HIV, which is everwhere to be found. How much money stands to be made if anti-viral drugs get shipped to Australia? Will Gallo be dutifully rewarded? How many people might die, or live sickly lives, because of these anti-viral drugs? No, Shapiro thinks in "dischotomous" terms: there are those who believe in science, and those who don't. And ALL of us ought to believe in 'science.' It's very rich irony as I said.PaV
May 10, 2018
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Yet many science deniers do cite empirical evidence. The problem is that they do so in invalid, misleading ways.
Evolutionists do that on a daily basis. Anyone who says that natural selection, drift or any other blind and mindless process produced the diversity of life is lying. Anyone who says that those processes produced IC structures is lying. Textbooks on "Evolution" are full of those lies. So what is there to diagnose?ET
May 10, 2018
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FourFaces @ 6 - As Denyse wrote in the OP, "One does not diagnose a crowd of people one has never met, whose personal histories one does not know."Bob O'H
May 10, 2018
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Allan Keith, you have no case. You made up a straw man standard to protect your insane worldview. Atheistic materialists believe that material precedes mind. Whereas Theists believe that Mind precedes material. Since those positions are diametrically opposed, one of those positions, by necessity, must be a false view of reality. i.e. Must be a delusion!
Delusion a mistaken or unfounded opinion or idea https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/delusion A delusion is a belief that has no evidence in fact — a complete illusion.
The proof that Atheistic materialism is a delusion comes from the fact that believing that matter precedes mind, as atheists do, leads to catastrophic epistemological failure, i.e. to complete delusional thinking.
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387 Excerpt: Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God. Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, Paper with references for each claim page; Page 34: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pAYmZpUWFEi3hu45FbQZEvGKsZ9GULzh8KM0CpqdePk/edit
Whereas believing mind precedes matter. as Theists do, is shown to be a far more psychologically stable position:
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” – Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists – Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – preface “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” – Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists – Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100 https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
Further proof that Atheistic materialism is a delusion comes from the fact that it is impossible for atheists themselves to live as if their worldview were actually true (see bottom of post 8). Whereas, believing that Mind precedes matter, as Theists do, reflects reality as it is really lived by people in that it is consistent with how people actually live their lives, i.e. reflects the fact that there really are real persons in the world (not neuronal illusions), with free will, with real meaning and purposes to their lives, and that there are objective moral standards for everyone to live by, etc.. etc.. Moreover, as if that was not already more than enough to prove that Atheistic materialism is a delusional worldview that is completely out of touch with reality as it is really lived, Quantum Mechanics itself has repeatedly confirmed that key and defining aspects of mind, (i.e."the now of the mind" and free will), precede the existence of material reality itself.
Albert Einstein vs. Quantum Mechanics and His Own Mind – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxFFtZ301j4 The Death of Materialism - InspiringPhilosophy - video - May 4, 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM0IKLv7KrE
Verse:
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
bornagain77
May 10, 2018
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AK,
Anyone who repeatedly claims that any of these groups suffer from one or more of these maladies is either delusional, insane, suffers from mental illness, or is just compulsively dishonest.
BA77,
Since Atheistic materialism does not reflect reality as it really is, then Atheistic materialism is, by definition, delusional thinking!
I rest my case.Allan Keith
May 9, 2018
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per AK at 7, Anyone claiming that this,,,
Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Scientists Have Stored a Movie, a Computer OS, and an Amazon Gift Card in a Single Speck of DNA "The highest-density data-storage device ever created." - PETER DOCKRILL - 7 MAR 2017 Excerpt: In turn, Erlich and fellow researcher Dina Zielinski from the New York Genome Centre now say their own coding strategy is 100 times more efficient than the 2012 standard, and capable of recording 215 petabytes of data on a single gram of DNA. For context, just 1 petabyte is equivalent to 13.3 years' worth of high-definition video, so if you feel like glancing disdainfully at the external hard drive on your computer desk right now, we won't judge. http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-stored-a-movie-a-computer-os-and-an-amazon-gift-card-in-a-single-speck-of-dna
and this,,,
Multiple Overlapping Genetic Codes Profoundly Reduce the Probability of Beneficial Mutation George Montañez 1, Robert J. Marks II 2, Jorge Fernandez 3 and John C. Sanford 4 – published online May 2013 Excerpt: In the last decade, we have discovered still another aspect of the multi-dimensional genome. We now know that DNA sequences are typically “ poly-functional” [38]. Trifanov previously had described at least 12 genetic codes that any given nucleotide can contribute to [39,40], and showed that a given base-pair can contribute to multiple overlapping codes simultaneously. The first evidence of overlapping protein-coding sequences in viruses caused quite a stir, but since then it has become recognized as typical. According to Kapronov et al., “it is not unusual that a single base-pair can be part of an intricate network of multiple isoforms of overlapping sense and antisense transcripts, the majority of which are unannotated” [41]. The ENCODE project [42] has confirmed that this phenomenon is ubiquitous in higher genomes, wherein a given DNA sequence routinely encodes multiple overlapping messages, meaning that a single nucleotide can contribute to two or more genetic codes. Most recently, Itzkovitz et al. analyzed protein coding regions of 700 species, and showed that virtually all forms of life have extensive overlapping information in their genomes [43]. 38. Sanford J (2008) Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome. FMS Publications, NY. Pages 131–142. 39. Trifonov EN (1989) Multiple codes of nucleotide sequences. Bull of Mathematical Biology 51:417–432. 40. Trifanov EN (1997) Genetic sequences as products of compression by inclusive superposition of many codes. Mol Biol 31:647–654. 41. Kapranov P, et al (2005) Examples of complex architecture of the human transcriptome revealed by RACE and high density tiling arrays. Genome Res 15:987–997. 42. Birney E, et al (2007) Encode Project Consortium: Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project. Nature 447:799–816. 43. Itzkovitz S, Hodis E, Sega E (2010) Overlapping codes within protein-coding sequences. Genome Res. 20:1582–1589. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0006
and this,,,
The Human Brain Is 'Beyond Belief' by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. * - 2017 Excerpt: The human brain,, is an engineering marvel that evokes comments from researchers like “beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief”1 and “a world we had never imagined.”2,,, Perfect Optimization The scientists found that at multiple hierarchical levels in the whole brain, nerve cell clusters (ganglion), and even at the individual cell level, the positioning of neural units achieved a goal that human engineers strive for but find difficult to achieve—the perfect minimizing of connection costs among all the system’s components.,,, Vast Computational Power Researchers discovered that a single synapse is like a computer’s microprocessor containing both memory-storage and information-processing features.,,, Just one synapse alone can contain about 1,000 molecular-scale microprocessor units acting in a quantum computing environment. An average healthy human brain contains some 200 billion nerve cells connected to one another through hundreds of trillions of synapses. To put this in perspective, one of the researchers revealed that the study’s results showed a single human brain has more information processing units than all the computers, routers, and Internet connections on Earth.1,,, Phenomenal Processing Speed the processing speed of the brain had been greatly underrated. In a new research study, scientists found the brain is 10 times more active than previously believed.6,7,,, The large number of dendritic spikes also means the brain has more than 100 times the computational capabilities than was previously believed.,,, Petabyte-Level Memory Capacity Our new measurements of the brain’s memory capacity increase conservative estimates by a factor of 10 to at least a petabyte, in the same ballpark as the World Wide Web.9,,, Optimal Energy Efficiency Stanford scientist who is helping develop computer brains for robots calculated that a computer processor functioning with the computational capacity of the human brain would require at least 10 megawatts to operate properly. This is comparable to the output of a small hydroelectric power plant. As amazing as it may seem, the human brain requires only about 10 watts to function.11 ,,, Multidimensional Processing It is as if the brain reacts to a stimulus by building then razing a tower of multi-dimensional blocks, starting with rods (1D), then planks (2D), then cubes (3D), and then more complex geometries with 4D, 5D, etc. The progression of activity through the brain resembles a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materializes out of the sand and then disintegrates.13 He also said: We found a world that we had never imagined. There are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions.13,,, Biophoton Brain Communication Neurons contain many light-sensitive molecules such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores, and aromatic amino acids. Even the mitochondria machines that produce energy inside cells contain several different light-responsive molecules called chromophores. This research suggests that light channeled by filamentous cellular structures called microtubules plays an important role in helping to coordinate activities in different regions of the brain.,,, https://www.icr.org/article/10186
,,, can be an accident has, by definition, lost their mind!
It’s Really Not Rocket Science – Granville Sewell – November 16, 2015 Excerpt: “It is not enough to say that design is a more likely scenario to explain a world full of well-designed things. It strikes me as urgent to insist that you not allow your mind to surrender the absolute clarity that all complex and magnificent things were made that way. Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident… you have essentially “lost your mind.”” Jay Homnick – American Spectator 2005 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/it_really_isnt100911.html
And that is not even getting into the insanity that is inherent in the claim from leading Atheistic materialists who say that they are not real persons but are instead "neuronal illusions":
Atheist Philosopher Thinks "We Never Have Direct Access To Our Thoughts" - Michael Egnor July 20, 2016 Excerpt: Materialist theories of the mind border on the insane. If a man walks into a doctor's office and says "I never have direct access to my thoughts and I have no first person point of view," the man will be referred to a psychiatrist and may be involuntarily hospitalized until it is established that he is not a danger to himself or others. If the same guy walks into the philosophy department at Duke University, he gets tenure. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/07/atheist_philoso103010.html
Moreover, even many leading atheists themselves openly admit that it is impossible for them to live as if their materialistic worldview were actually true:
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
Even Richard Dawkins himself admitted that it would be 'intolerable' for him to live his life as if atheistic materialism were actually true
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
In what should be needless to say, if it is impossible for you to live as if your worldview were actually true then your worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but your worldview must instead be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
i.e. Since Atheistic materialism does not reflect reality as it really is, then Atheistic materialism is, by definition, delusional thinking!bornagain77
May 9, 2018
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I don’t think that IDists, theists, materialists, evolutionist or atheists are delusional, insane or suffer mental illness. They just have different viewpoints. However, I will make one claim. Anyone who repeatedly claims that any of these groups suffer from one or more of these maladies is either delusional, insane, suffers from mental illness, or is just compulsively dishonest. I suspect the latter, but that is just my opinion.Allan Keith
May 9, 2018
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Like almost all materialists and Darwinists, Jeremy P. Shapiro suffers from CDS or Christianity derangement syndrome. They can't talk about science without mentioning Christianity over and over again. It's a peculiar form of OCD.FourFaces
May 9, 2018
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News, does our psychologist here offer any empirical, directly observed basis for the claim that functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information does actually come about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity? I safely bet, no. Where, by contrast it is shown on a trillion observation basis that it is routinely brought about by intelligently directed configuration. We further can readily show that the needle in haystack blind search challenge in relevant configuration spaces [3.27*10^150 - 1.07*10^301 and sharply up] reduces feasible search on the scope of the observed cosmos to almost no search. In short, there is empirically and analytically founded warrant for the design inference, rising to the level of a reliable inference on sign. In that context, he is indulging in ill-tempered ad hominems (and yes, it is: disagree with US and you are ignorant, stupid, INSANE or wicked, etc . . . ) backed up by abuse of his credentials. This does not speak well of what he has done. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2018
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The old "anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant, stupid, insane or evil" line was sad and tired when Dawkins trotted it out years ago. That this person thinks he's saying something novel and interesting is sufficient evidence of his insufficiency.ScuzzaMan
May 9, 2018
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But, LocalMinimum at 3, you are not a psychotherapist. Maybe you deal in the real world, which is fact-driven and messy.News
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If only my education cast my ad hominem as authoritative rather than leaving me to thrash about in the pit of banal details that comprises the actual subject matter.LocalMinimum
May 9, 2018
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as to:
, I see a striking parallel between a type of thinking involved in many mental health disturbances and the reasoning behind science denial. As I explain in my book “Psychotherapeutic Diagrams,” dichotomous thinking, also called black-and-white and all-or-none thinking, is a factor in depression, anxiety, aggression and, especially, borderline personality disorder.
Hmm, interesting claim. If his claim is true then one wonders why, mentally, atheists suffer much more than Christians do
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100 https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
If I might offer a little common sense street psychology to the good Doctor of Psychiatry. It is very simple why atheists mentally suffer more than Christians do. Their materialistic worldview is, besides being thoroughly unscientific, simply put, delusional through and through.
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387 Excerpt: Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God. Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, Paper with references for each claim page; Page 34: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pAYmZpUWFEi3hu45FbQZEvGKsZ9GULzh8KM0CpqdePk/edit
Thus, although the Darwinist firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Bottom line, if God is not real then nothing can be real. Other than all that the good Doctor might of had a point! :)bornagain77
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