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RDFish/Aiguy’s “What Does “Intelligence” Mean in ID Theory?”

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[I’m for giving opposing viewpoints a fair representation. Aiguy is a widely respected critic of ID. I cross post his offering from TSZ What Does “Intelligence” Mean in ID Theory?]

Below I argue that despite insisting that it makes no claims about the nature of the Designer, ID’s equivocation on the meaning of “intelligence” results in implicit and unsupported connotations being lumped together as conclusions of the “design inference”.

Is it Intelligent?

Working in Artificial Intelligence, one comes to realize that asking if something is “intelligent” or not is generally a matter of definition rather than discovery. Here is a joke illustrating this point:

AIGUY: Here is our newest AI system. It learned to play grandmaster-level chess by reading books. It has written award-winning novels, proven the Goldbach Conjecture, written a beautiful symphony, designed a working fusion reactor, and talked a suicidal jumper down from the Golden Gate Bridge.
CUSTOMER: That’s very nice. But is this system actually intelligent?

I find that more often than not people don’t get this joke – at least not the same way I do. Some people think it’s obvious that a computer can’t be truly intelligent, so it’s ridiculous to ask that question. Other people think that anything that could do all the things this system does obviously is intelligent, so it’s funny that anyone would even bother to ask. Still others believe that the question is perfectly reasonable, and the answer could be determined by looking more carefully at the computer’s characteristics.

To me, the joke is that the question isn’t actually about the computer system, but rather it’s about what the word “intelligent” means. And there is no right or wrong answer; it is entirely a matter of our choosing what we consider intelligence to be, and thus whether we consider some particular thing (entity, being, system, process) intelligent or not.

[Footnote: As an aside, ID proponents often change the subject when talking about computer intelligence. If I point out that computers can design things, they respond that the computer only can do this because it was itself designed by a real intelligent agent, a human being. In other words, rather than try to judge whether or not a computer that can design things is intelligent per se, ID proponents start talking about “Who designed the designer?” and about how this computer came to exist. I’m not sure why ID proponents don’t realize that they believe human beings were also designed by a real intelligent agent, yet this doesn’t disqualify us from being intelligent per se!]

The concept of “intelligence” – like “life” – is notoriously difficult to pin down. As Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously remarked about pornography, we know it when we see it, but if you ask five cognitive psychologists what the word “intelligence” means, you may get seven different definitions. Broadly speaking, definitions of intelligence can be categorized as either functional, where the definition specifies something about how intelligent systems operate, or behavioral, where the definition specifies the sorts of tasks systems must be capable of in order to be considered intelligent. I have been in countless semantic disputes (as opposed to substantive disagreements) regarding the concept of intelligence because people have different types of definitions in mind.

[Footnote: People sometimes complain that if “life” is hard to define, why don’t I object to biologists that they are equivocating on that word? The answer is that biologists use the word “life” not to explain anything, but rather to generally describe the sorts of things they study. In contrast, ID Theory offers “intelligence” as an explanatory construct, and thus is obliged to say exactly what it means.]

ID Theory and Intelligent Behavior

In spite of this confusion over what the term “intelligence” means, ID theory offers it as the best explanation for the existence of complex form and function in biology, as well as universal fine-tuning (I’ll refer to these features collectively as “biological CSI” here for simplicity). In fact, the term “intelligent cause” is the sum total of ID’s explanatory framework – absolutely nothing else is said about what ID supposes to have been responsible. So it seems fair to ask what precisely is meant by this term in the context of ID.

Years ago William Dembski was asked (by me) in a forum interview what he meant by “intelligence”, and he replied that it could be defined as simply as “the ability to produce complex specified information”. I’ve heard this many times since (here’s a recent example from Sal at UD: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/arguing-for-resemblance-of-design-rd-instead-of-intelligent-design-id/#comment-460109 ).

The problem with using a behavioral definition of intelligence like this is that it renders ID theory a vacuous tautology: ID claims the best explanation for CSI in biology is that which produces CSI. Simply labelling a hypothetical cause does not add anything to our understanding; the theorist must actually characterize the explanatory construct in a way that enables us to decide if it exists or not. Otherwise, for example, we could explain the existence of crop circles by invoking the “cerealogical force”, which is characterized by the ability to produce crop circles. How do we know that the cerealogical force exists? By the appearance of crop circles of course!

Why isn’t it obvious to everyone that defining “intelligence” this way makes ID into a vacuous claim? Because people typically make a set of implicit assumptions about other sorts of things an intelligent thing should be able to do, viz. the things that human beings can typically do. For example, if ID said this intelligent cause was something that, besides creating biological CSI, was also capable of explaining its actions in grammatical language, or proving a theorem in first order logic, or predicting lunar eclipses, then ID would indeed be making meaningful claims. The challenge then would be to provide some indication that these claim were true, but of course there is no such evidence.

Again: There is no evidence whatsoever that ID’s intelligent cause could do anything aside from produce the biological CSI we observe. There is no theory of intelligence that tells us that when some entity displays one particular ability it will necessarily have some other ability. Just like the chess-playing computer – or a human with savant syndrome – it may be that ID’s “intelligent cause” could do one thing very well, but could do nothing else that human beings typically do.

Of course, to the extent that the intelligent cause was supposed to be similar to human beings in other respects (and in particular had similar brain anatomy and neurophysiology) there may be reason to speculate a similarity in other abilities. But since the thing (entity, system, process, force, etc) that ID claims as the cause biological CSI may be a radically different sort of thing than a human being, there is simply no grounds to assume it has other abilities similar to humans.

[Footnote: Occasionally at this point an ID proponent will remind me that ID makes no commitments as to the nature of the Designer, and thus It could well be some extra-terrestrial life form with some sort of brain. The suggestion seems disingenuous, though, and in any event once we posit the existence of extra-terrestrial life forms as the cause of life on Earth, it is simpler to imagine that life on Earth arose as these organisms’ descendents rather than as the product of their advanced bio-engineering skills.]

If ID chooses to define “intelligence” behaviorally, then, the result will either be that (1) ID is vacuous, or (2) ID makes claims that are not supported by any evidence. What about if ID defines “intelligence” functionally instead?

ID Theory and Intelligent Function

Dembski’s most usual definitions for “intelligence” are functional, including “the complement of fixed law and chance” and “the power and facility to choose between options”. So intelligent entities, in Dembski’s view, are defined by their power to make choices that are not determined by antecedent events. What Dembski does not mention (although he is surely aware of it) is that what he is defining as “intelligence” is another way of describing libertarian free will, and in my experience discussing ID with its proponents on the internet, this is indeed an important part of what most people mean when they talk about intelligence.

I believe the concept of metaphysical libertarianism to be incoherent, but in any case it clearly cannot be mistaken for settled science. But ID authors (including Dembski and Stephen Meyer) fail to acknowledge that this particular metaphysical position underlies their theory. On the contrary, Dembski and Meyer argue that the “intelligent causation” posited by ID as the cause of biological CSI is something that is known to us by our familiarity with intelligent agents. This is specious. What we know is that human beings design and build complex machinery. We do not know how we do it (because we don’t understand how we think), and we do not know if our thought processes transcend physical causality or not. Thus when Stephen Meyer claims that the causal explanation proposed by ID is known to us “in our uniform and repeated experience of intelligent agency”, he is pulling a fast one.

To his credit, Meyer does say something specific about what he means when he talks about intelligence: He often refers to intelligence as being synonymous with “conscious, rational deliberation”. We all know what consciousness is, even if nobody has any idea how (or if) it functions causally in our thought processes. So to say that the cause of life, the universe, and everything was conscious is to make a concrete claim.

But just as ID can’t support the claim that the intelligent cause was capable of explaining its intentions, ID offers no good reason to believe the intelligent cause was conscious. Moreover, there is some reason to doubt that claim a priori: Our uniform and repeated experience confirms that a well-functioning brain is necessary (even if not sufficient) for conscious awareness, and unless ID is explicitly proposing that ID’s intelligent cause had a brain, the conclusion warranted by our experience would be that the intelligent cause did not likely deliberate its designs consciously. We human beings are conscious of our intentions and consciously imagine future events, but this conscious awareness is known to critically rely on specific neural systems. The generation of biological CSI may well have occurred in ways that are fundamentally different from human cognition, and so we have no reason to believe it involved consciousness as humans experience it.

What about SETI?

ID proponents often turn to SETI to legitimize their insistence that “intelligence” is a meaningful scientific explanation. If we could explain a SETI signal by invoking extra-terrestrial intelligence, they reason, why can’t ID invoke an unspecified intelligence as the explanation for biological systems? But of course SETI is virtually the inverse of ID: SETI looks for things that do not otherwise occur in nature in order to find extra-terrestrial life forms, while ID looks at things that do occur in nature for signs of extra-terrestrial non-life forms.

SETI is not a theory; it is a search for data. It is the assumption that an ETI is an extra-terrestrial intelligent life form that lends meaning (and research direction) to the SETI program. SETI astrobiologists make assumptions about the likelihood of various planets being hospitable to life as we know it, and astronomers look for signals coming from such planets. If SETI did find some signal and a paper was published that suggested this was evidence for a intelligent agent that was not a form of life as we know it, I would complain that the term tells us nothing at all about what was responsible. All we could say is that the cause was something we know nothing about except that it was capable of producing the signal we observed.

Conclusion

The broad connotations of the word “intelligence” in the minds of most people include consciousness, metaphysical libertarianism, and the ability to solve novel problems in varied domains. These are specific claims that cannot be supported empirically in the context of ID. Once all of these concepts are removed, however, there is no meaning left to the term “intelligent cause”. And therefore, ID tells us nothing at all about the cause of life, the universe, and everything that can be supported by the evidence.

Imagine if we found the Intelligent Designer and asked It, say, why It created so many different types of beetles. For all ID can tell us, the Designer may be unable to answer, because It may be some sort process with no conscious beliefs or desires at all, acting without any idea of what It is doing or why.

Comments
BTW - RDFish, I am trusting you that you won't provide two series generated by a pseudo-random number generator. You would obviously win the experiment, by representing to us as two series from different origin, two series with essentially the same origin. But at that point I would hope that your conscience would not let you do that.JDH
July 4, 2013
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Hi Again RDFish - You are obviously smart and cordial. I like that. But what I find irritating is what I consider your lack of intellectual honesty. In my way of looking at the world, human beings are unique in that they have the ability to believe. You even admit this when you say, "I believe...". The neat thing about being human is that we have a conscious will which can step outside of ourselves and ask the important question, "Is this belief I have consistent with cold scientific fact?" So now you say
In my view, something is either determined or undetermined. If something is undetermined, then it is random. So when libertarians say thought is neither determined nor random, I think they are eliminating both possiblities, and that is why I think libertarianism is incoherent.
Leave out the logical fallacy of begging the question for the moment. Let's try and answer the question if thought is determined or random. Let's not just talk about it, let's do an experiment. You physically type in response for me a sequence of 100 H's and T's with the stated goal of making it look like a random set of coin flips. And also flip a coin 100 times and record the results. Don't tell us which sequence of 100 H's and T's were generated by either method. If thought is determined, then you should not be able to come up with a sample that at first glance looks random. If thought is truly random, we should not be able to ( by applying simple statistical arguments ) tell which series is your guess at random behavior, and actual random behavior. If I can guess reliably which one of the two series you provide is the one l believe your conscious will produced by "trying to produce a sample that looks random", and which one is truly random, I would say thought is not random. This experiment then gives strong scientific, repeatable, evidence that thought is neither determined nor random. At that point you can, as a thinking human being, decide whether or not to dump your viewpoint or not.JDH
July 4, 2013
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Hi Eric,
RDF: All we could say is that the cause was something we know nothing about except that it was capable of producing the signal we observed. ERIC: Well, that is the $64,000 question, isn’t it? Is that really all we could say?
Right, we would not know anything else about this source.
Is that really all SETI would say?
SETI is a program, not a theory. It isn't really germain to our discussion what some spokesperson for that organization may say in some particular situation, is it?
What we could say by deduction is that we know the cause was capable of producing the signal.
I'd say we'd know that because of the definition of "cause" rather than by deduction, but whatever.
What we could say by inference is, potentially, a great deal more.
Deduction is a type of inference, along with induction. I think you mean "induction" here. In any case, no, you have no data for an induction.
Like the fact that the signal matches a specification that in our uniform and repeated experience only arises from an intelligent being.
What do you mean, "intelligent being"? Did you read my OP? And you are still using that term without saying what particular definition you'd like to use?
Like the fact that in our uniform and repeated experience natural causes don’t produce the signal in question.
This is what SETI looks for, yes.
Like the fact that, based on our understanding of chemistry and physics and the laws of the universe as we know them, such laws are incapable of producing such a signal.
Well no, we don't know that. We simply do not know of any such process, but we can't say that it would be impossible for some unknown sort of process to produce them.
Like the fact that a purely chance-based process has, for all practical purposes, no possibility of producing such a signal.
I don't know of any "purely chance-based" processes.
We all know — you included — that if such a signal were found that SETI and everyone else with a modicum of intelligence would draw reasonable inferences, would conclude that the signal was intelligently created, and would announce it from the rooftops.
What do you mean, "intelligently created"? Did you read my OP? And you are still using that term without saying what particular definition you'd like to use?
Either you are not understanding the difference between deduction and inference,...
You are the one who does not understand these terms I'm afraid. Again, deduction is a type of inference. Wow.
... or you have some kind of mental block to the inference of design when it comes to living systems.
You haven't read my OP. Here's the conclusion: The broad connotations of the word “intelligence” in the minds of most people include consciousness, metaphysical libertarianism, and the ability to solve novel problems in varied domains. These are specific claims that cannot be supported empirically in the context of ID. Once all of these concepts are removed, however, there is no meaning left to the term “intelligent cause”. And therefore, ID tells us nothing at all about the cause of life, the universe, and everything that can be supported by the evidence. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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RDFish:
All we could say is that the cause was something we know nothing about except that it was capable of producing the signal we observed.
Well, that is the $64,000 question, isn't it? Is that really all we could say? Is that really all SETI would say? What we could say by deduction is that we know the cause was capable of producing the signal. What we could say by inference is, potentially, a great deal more. Like the fact that the signal matches a specification that in our uniform and repeated experience only arises from an intelligent being. Like the fact that in our uniform and repeated experience natural causes don't produce the signal in question. Like the fact that, based on our understanding of chemistry and physics and the laws of the universe as we know them, such laws are incapable of producing such a signal. Like the fact that a purely chance-based process has, for all practical purposes, no possibility of producing such a signal. We all know -- you included -- that if such a signal were found that SETI and everyone else with a modicum of intelligence would draw reasonable inferences, would conclude that the signal was intelligently created, and would announce it from the rooftops. If SETI received a signal that matched the parameters and clearly fell into the category they are looking for, you'd better believe they would not limit themselves to pure deduction and quietly shuffle their feet and say "Well, gee, we really can't say anything other than that the signal was caused." Either you are not understanding the difference between deduction and inference, or you have some kind of mental block to the inference of design when it comes to living systems.Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
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From Intelligent Design is not Optimal Design, by William A. Dembski:
I was recently on an NPR program with skeptic Michael Shermer and paleontologist Donald Prothero to discuss intelligent design. As the discussion unfolded, it became clear that they were using the phrase "intelligent design" in a way quite different from how the emerging intelligent design community is using it. The confusion centered on what the adjective "intelligent" is doing in the phrase "intelligent design." "Intelligent," after all, can mean nothing more than being the result of an intelligent agent, even one who acts stupidly. On the other hand, it can mean that an intelligent agent acted with skill, mastery, and eclat. Shermer and Prothero understood the "intelligent" in "intelligent design" to mean the latter, and thus presumed that intelligent design must entail optimal design. The intelligent design community, on the other hand, means the former and thus separates intelligent design from questions of optimality. But why then place the adjective "intelligent" in front of the noun "design"? Doesn't design already include the idea of intelligent agency, so that juxtaposing the two becomes an exercise in redundancy? Not at all. Intelligent design needs to be distinguished from apparent design on the one hand and optimal design on the other. Apparent design looks designed but really isn't. Optimal design is perfect design and hence cannot exist except in an idealized realm (sometimes called a "Platonic heaven"). Apparent and optimal design empty design of all practical significance.
Joe
July 3, 2013
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Hi Sal, Thanks again for posting this.
ID is a truth claim that people can ponder at a personal level. For me, ID seems well supported by indirect evidence. But I won’t presume that this is how other people perceive the evidence.
When you say ID I really think you mean dualism, libertarianism, and theism. That's absolutely fine with me - there is certaintly nothing wrong with believing in any of these things; lots of very smart people do.
You have argued the difficulty of making ID a scientific enterprise, and I don’t believe I’ve vigorously objected to that. I think however, criticism of specific naturalistic scenarios is science.
I don't understand what "naturalistic" means - unless you are saying that you've assumed dualism and "naturalistic" refers to the res extensa or something.
It is perfectly correct to criticize on scientific grounds : Darwinian evolution, neutral evolution, OOL, etc. That is science, that is good science. 95% of ID literature is exactly that, ...
Yes this is science, and it is important science. I don't think the science hasn't been all that good really, but ID hasn't had the support of the universities of course.
...but the 5% that speaks about a Designer causes you to disagree.
It's not so much that I disagree, but rather I object to the equivocations. You don't equivocate - you're willing to drop the claim to scientific status and you make the metaphysical commitments explicit, and I think that is exactly the right way to go.
I respect that, but not every person at a personal level sees it the way you do. Michael Behe never struck me as being invested in ID because of his metaphysical beliefs, whether right or wrong, when he saw that flagellum motor, it was a bit too much for him to not think there was Designer behind it.
Of course there is a designer behind it. Unfortunately, Behe never bothered to say what he meant by "designer", so his conclusion was meaningless. Your view is that the designer is something with an immaterial mind and libertarian free will. Well, lots of people believe that, and have for a long time, and that's fine. We just don't have any way of demonstrating that those things exist.
As I said, if ID is a mistake, it’s an honest one, and I personally cut people slack for such mistakes. There are much more egregious claims in the world of science that ought to be challenged. Even supposing ID is wrong, it probably doesn’t deserve the resistance its getting.
Part of the resistance is because scientists are human beings who always reject challenges to their beliefs. Part of the resistance is because ID authors are disingenuous about their beliefs - they do not admit to their metaphysical assumptions the way you do.
As a truth claim (not necessarily a science claim) it seems a better bet. What is there to lose by being wrong? Not much in my opinion, but there is a lot to gain personally if the hypothesis is right. I can tell you with a clear conscience, despite my doubts, it’s far harder for me to believe biological systems were not the product of a MIND far beyond anything we can comprehend.
I agree, but the difference is that once I admit that we can't begin to comprehend it, I actually hold to that. I think other people say they can't comprehend it, but then go ahead and think they actually do comprehend it, and "it" in their minds is... guess what?... very much like a human being (except a much bigger stronger smarter and more powerful one).
Paraphrasing what Berlinski once said regarding the possibility of considering ID, “what’s the harm?” (I think it was in Icons of Evolution).
The harm for me is that once people think they've co-opted the status of science for a belief in a deity, some will try to impose moral dogma and use "science" as a rationale. That's always a recipe for disaster. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 3, 2013
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Hi computerist,
If humans were wiped off the face of the earth with no trace of their existence, and a computer was found would you not infer agency from the onset?
I of course would infer human beings (or a life form very similar to us) as the ones who made the computers.
This starting inference indicates a process was involved, and processes are acknowledged universally.
What do you mean?
As far as the observer is concerned the underlying agency is merely a process of a certain qualitative and/or quantitative magnitude. “Intelligence is required” states that the “agency” was beyond natural processes to produce.
Ok, you've defined "intelligence" as "something beyond natural processes". Fine. How do you define "natural processes? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 3, 2013
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Hi JDH,
Why should I not look at this statement and, despite your obvious mental acuity,...
Thanks!
...discount all your credibility?
Because we disagree about libertarianism?
I believe this statement to be inherently self contradictory.
We disagree.
Either you evaluate this statement using your intelligence or it is just the result of random chance + physical law. Which is it?
Well, I see you are defining "intelligence" as "not the result of random chance + physical law". Is that right? Ok, that's fine. Now, can you think of a way to demonstrate that anything operates outside of random chance + physical law? I don't think anybody else can.
1. You are making a statement about a belief. This is an abstract concept that does not have an emotion, or hormone, or physical response associated with it.
You are asserting that mental processes are irreducible to physical processes. You might be right, but you might be wrong. Most scientists think you're wrong, but they might be mistaken. Personally I think it is an open question.
IOW – You are obviously using your will to initiate a choice about something which can only be described in immaterial concepts.
You can describe the operation of things at different levels of abstraction. I describe the text editor I'm using now in terms of paragraphs and margins and menus and buttons. But if I understood how the computer system worked, I could also (with a lot more effort) describe it in terms of modules and functions and data structures, or in terms of logic gates and memory addresses and binary instructions, or in terms of molecules of silicon and free electrons.
I know it sounds harsh, but in my humble opinion, it is not metaphysical libertarianism that is incoherent, it is the ability of you to make a statement which is so self-contradictory and not see it that is incoherent.
I'm pretty certain that you are the one who is very confused about this, but that doesn't mean I'll call into question your sanity or intelligence. I just think we disagree about a point of philosophy :-)
Otherwise show to me what you mean by “I believe the concept of metaphysical libertarianism to be incoherent.”
In my view, something is either determined or undetermined. If something is undetermined, then it is random. So when libertarians say thought is neither determined nor random, I think they are eliminating both possiblities, and that is why I think libertarianism is incoherent.
Please note: Just because RDFish can’t understand it is no reason to reject something’s existence.
Hahahahaha. I'm just making arguments here, JDH. Make a counter-argument if you can, but you don't need to lecture me. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 3, 2013
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Hi Eric,
This is just confused... ID is also based on the idea that there are things that “do not otherwise occur in nature...”
You don't think that biology is natural? I'm confused?
— that is, by known natural laws and principles.
Your definition of "natural" is "by known natural laws and principles"? Hmmm, talk about "supernatural of the gaps" thinking!
The whole question is how biological systems came into being.
Right.
So saying that they are part of the natural order is begging the whole question.
I have no idea what you mean here. I don't even understand what you mean by "natural order".
ID proponents are absolutely correct to point out the double-standard at work by those who would accept a 4-bit digital code received across space by SETI, but who refuse to recognize it when it is right in front of them in life.
SETI is not a theory; it is a search for data. It is the assumption that an ETI is an extra-terrestrial intelligent life form that lends meaning (and research direction) to the SETI program. SETI astrobiologists make assumptions about the likelihood of various planets being hospitable to life as we know it, and astronomers look for signals coming from such planets. If SETI did find some signal and a paper was published that suggested this was evidence for a intelligent agent that was not a form of life as we know it, I would complain that the term tells us nothing at all about what was responsible. All we could say is that the cause was something we know nothing about except that it was capable of producing the signal we observed.
If ID critics believe that it is impossible to infer design...
What do you mean "infer design"? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 3, 2013
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EA, Nicely put, I too find it curious how ID opponents are more interested in putting roadblocks to block ID rather than try to approach it with an open mind.Shogun
July 3, 2013
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Eric Anderson
The desire to play definitional games smacks more of an attempt to put up roadblocks to discourse than it does of a sincere desire to seek the truth.
I agree. The trichotomy of Nature, Chance, and Art appeared 2300 years ago in Book X of Plato's Laws. This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone claiming not to know what these terms (or equivalent terms) mean in a design context. RDF/AIG
Wrong: Every time you have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via human beings or other animals, not “agency”.
What is your definition of "agency?"StephenB
July 3, 2013
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The key to intelligence can be understood very simply by looking at the etymology of the word: "to choose between." This is a straight-forward concept. Yet like any other definition expressed in our imperfect human language, we can just keep asking an endless regression of "But what about x?" questions, as some are wont to do. Is it difficult to pin down an absolute definition of intelligence? Sure. Just like it is difficult to pin down an absolute definition of consciousness, love, mind, free will, and so on. But that difficulty is borne of our limited abilities to ascertain and express, not borne of the lack of the existence of such things. We know they exist; we experience them every day. The desire to play definitional games smacks more of an attempt to put up roadblocks to discourse than it does of a sincere desire to seek the truth.Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
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RDF, Do you know of any case where nature, operating freely by chance & necessity, managed to generate CSI/IC?Shogun
July 3, 2013
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RDFishguy:
What you’ve said is that you, Joe, can do this because of all your education and experience, but other people are not able to. Is that right?
No, that is not right. Look, I understand that you have issues, but really? You wanted me to explain how archaeologists, forensic scientists, hunters, insurance investigators and SETI determine when nature is operating freely or some agency was involved. It's as if you think no one knows and everyone just guesses. My response that it took investigators, and yes I am one, many years of study and observations to be able to do what we do. Science isn't easy and it ain't for just anyone. But we realize that one of the main questions science asks is "how did it come to be this way (the way it is)?"- and that is because it matters to our understanding. Saying something was designed opens the floodgate of questions that we will, given our nature, attempt to answer.
Wrong: Every time you have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via human beings or other animals, not “agency”.
Umm, humans and other animals ARE "agencies"!
See? I say human beings are not agents, and you say they are. How can we perform an experiment to see which one of us is correct?
Shoot yourself in the head. If you bleed then you are an agent and I am correct. If you don't bleed then you are either a bad shot or not a biological agent. But anyway, you are typing on a keyboard and are arbitrarily responding to input. IE you are an agent.
In that case, are you saying that both humans and computers are intelligent agents? Or that neither are?
When computers become self-sufficient and can manipulate nature for their own purpose (or some purpose other than their designer(s)), I will grant them agency status. Until then they are merely extensions of us- our tool doing our bidding.Joe
July 3, 2013
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(2) ID makes claims that are not supported by any evidence.
RDFish, I respect that is how you feel given what you believe "supported" means. It is not necessarily how others feel. Now, this divergence of how people feel about what it means to support an idea lends credence to the difficulty of making ID a scientific proposition. Fine, I'm ambivalent to this. I think Resemblance of Design can be formulated as a scientific proposition, but it really won't much about how science is done anyway, and I'm not advocating RD as a new formal approach, only an informal way that I personally make some of my arguments. ID is a truth claim that people can ponder at a personal level. For me, ID seems well supported by indirect evidence. But I won't presume that this is how other people perceive the evidence. There are lots of people like myself, and their notions of "supported by the evidence" takes on a different meaning that what "supported by the evidence" means for you. I appreciate hearing that this is how you feel. As you pointed out in another discussion, there is irony in that both Dawkins and deeply religious people perceive an overwhelming impression of Design. You have argued the difficulty of making ID a scientific enterprise, and I don't believe I've vigorously objected to that. I think however, criticism of specific naturalistic scenarios is science. It is perfectly correct to criticize on scientific grounds : Darwinian evolution, neutral evolution, OOL, etc. That is science, that is good science. 95% of ID literature is exactly that, but the 5% that speaks about a Designer causes you to disagree. I respect that, but not every person at a personal level sees it the way you do. Michael Behe never struck me as being invested in ID because of his metaphysical beliefs, whether right or wrong, when he saw that flagellum motor, it was a bit too much for him to not think there was Designer behind it. As I said, if ID is a mistake, it's an honest one, and I personally cut people slack for such mistakes. There are much more egregious claims in the world of science that ought to be challenged. Even supposing ID is wrong, it probably doesn't deserve the resistance its getting. As a truth claim (not necessarily a science claim) it seems a better bet. What is there to lose by being wrong? Not much in my opinion, but there is a lot to gain personally if the hypothesis is right. I can tell you with a clear conscience, despite my doubts, it's far harder for me to believe biological systems were not the product of a MIND far beyond anything we can comprehend. Paraphrasing what Berlinski once said regarding the possibility of considering ID, "what's the harm?" (I think it was in Icons of Evolution). As an investor and gambler, if the price of being wrong is negligible and the payoff is large, take the bet.scordova
July 3, 2013
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If humans were wiped off the face of the earth with no trace of their existence, and a computer was found would you not infer agency from the onset? This starting inference indicates a process was involved, and processes are acknowledged universally. As far as the observer is concerned the underlying agency is merely a process of a certain qualitative and/or quantitative magnitude. "Intelligence is required" states that the "agency" was beyond natural processes to produce.computerist
July 3, 2013
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Sal ironically, I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that by some means we may be able to form a computer that shows genuine autonomy. If so we simply prove that it is possible to design and build an intelligent agent. However, I have a serious problem with the notion that a calculator that got too big for its britches is a case of what is needed. When we get to a case where a computer is not subject to GIGO due to blind calculation on input based on essentially mechanical processing a la Liebnitz's mill wheels grinding away, and is instead capable of genuine common sense (thus real decisions), we may be onto something. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Nope. Not by a very long shot indeed. Does that mean that we can then say that we are somehow emergent computers wired and programmed by blind chance and mechnical necessity? Nope, we already know the limits of the plausible complexity such can do, 500 - 1,000 bits. Far too short. FSCO/I has only one empirically reliable, credible cause, design, it is a reliable sign of design, thus intelligence. But, what is intelligence? First, we may freely define through cases and family resemblance, by what is empirically warranted as uniquely characteristic of a class of beings we deem intelligent. We are intelligent and anything that has some of the following relevant characteristics -- from the UD glossary courtesy Wiki as a good 101 start point -- would reasonably be seen as intelligent too:
Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.”
Intelligence is as intelligence does, with ourselves as case study no 1. And since the world of cell based life is based on codes used in D/RNA, we have reason to see intelligence behind that use of language to plan and solve problems requiring abstract symbolic representation. Similarly, the observed cosmos is evidently multiply fine tuned for life and its material entities seem to have originated at a finite remove in time, usually estimated at 13.7 BYA. Intelligence again, and intelligence that is antecedent to matter, with capabilities to design and power to build a cosmos. Immaterial mind, we might as well call it spiritual and be done. KFkairosfocus
July 3, 2013
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Hi RDFish- You said:
I believe the concept of metaphysical libertarianism to be incoherent
Why should I not look at this statement and, despite your obvious mental acuity, discount all your credibility? I believe this statement to be inherently self contradictory. Either you evaluate this statement using your intelligence or it is just the result of random chance + physical law. Which is it? 1. You are making a statement about a belief. This is an abstract concept that does not have an emotion, or hormone, or physical response associated with it. You are expressing an idea about the truthfulness or lack of truthfulness an of immaterial thing. It does not have a physical counterpart and can only be described in terms of other abstract ideas. 2. You choose to initiate an action ( using your will to express the "incoherence" of it ) about this abstract concept. Unfortunately the abstract concept you are using your will is about whether you have a will or not. IOW - You are obviously using your will to initiate a choice about something which can only be described in immaterial concepts. I know it sounds harsh, but in my humble opinion, it is not metaphysical libertarianism that is incoherent, it is the ability of you to make a statement which is so self-contradictory and not see it that is incoherent. Otherwise show to me what you mean by "I believe the concept of metaphysical libertarianism to be incoherent." Please note: Just because RDFish can't understand it is no reason to reject something's existence.JDH
July 3, 2013
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This is just confused:
But of course SETI is virtually the inverse of ID: SETI looks for things that do not otherwise occur in nature in order to find extra-terrestrial life forms, while ID looks at things that do occur in nature for signs of extra-terrestrial non-life forms.
ID is also based on the idea that there are things that "do not otherwise occur in nature" -- that is, by known natural laws and principles. The whole question is how biological systems came into being. So saying that they are part of the natural order is begging the whole question. ID proponents are absolutely correct to point out the double-standard at work by those who would accept a 4-bit digital code received across space by SETI, but who refuse to recognize it when it is right in front of them in life. If ID critics believe that it is impossible to infer design when presented with a code in a living system, then they need to come clean and also take the position that we can't infer design if presented with a code across the void of space.Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
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Hi Joe,
SC Meyer has made it clear that whatever a computer does can indeed be traces back to its designer(s). I don’t see why nor how that is an issue. Comnputers and their programs do what they are designed to do. And yes, I would say most IDists, if not all, realize that we can also be tarced back to our designer(s).
In that case, are you saying that both humans and computers are intelligent agents? Or that neither are? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 3, 2013
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Hi Joe,
We do have tried and true techniques for determining if nature operated freely or not. That is based on our knowledge and experiences with cause and effect relationships.
What you've said is that you, Joe, can do this because of all your education and experience, but other people are not able to. Is that right?
Every time we have observed CSI & IC and knew the cause it has always been via agency actions-> always, 100% of the time.
Wrong: Every time you have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via human beings or other animals, not "agency". See? I say human beings are not agents, and you say they are. How can we perform an experiment to see which one of us is correct? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 3, 2013
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Sal - Thanks for posting!RDFish
July 3, 2013
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OT: Hold the phones everybody,,, now a Darwinists is claiming that a chimp mated with a pig and that is what gave rise to humans:
A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans? Excerpt: Dr. Eugene McCarthy,, has amassed an impressive body of evidence suggesting that human origins can be best explained by hybridization between pigs and chimpanzees. Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence and McCarthy does not disappoint. Rather than relying on genetic sequence comparisons, he instead offers extensive anatomical comparisons, each of which may be individually assailable, but startling when taken together. http://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-humans.html
HMMM weird, I suddenly have a craving for a Double-Bacon-cheeseburger! :)bornagain77
July 3, 2013
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Q- What produced the first living cell? A- Intelligence! Q- What do you mean by Intellgence? A- Agency! Q- How can you tell when agencies act? A- We find signs of counterflow and work! Q- What are signs of couterflow and work? A- Complex specified information! Q- How do you know that CSI and IC are signs of counterflow and work? A- Every time we have observed CSI & IC and knew the cause it has always been via agency actions-> always, 100% of the time. And we have never observed nature, operating freely producing either CSI nor IC- never, 0% of the time. Therefor when we observe CSI or IC and don’t know the cause it is safe to infer intentional design. And BTW: In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the ONLY POSSIBLE way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence.Joe
July 3, 2013
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Blah, blah, blah, blah. Intelligence wrt ID means agency
[Footnote: As an aside, ID proponents often change the subject when talking about computer intelligence. If I point out that computers can design things, they respond that the computer only can do this because it was itself designed by a real intelligent agent, a human being. In other words, rather than try to judge whether or not a computer that can design things is intelligent per se, ID proponents start talking about "Who designed the designer?" and about how this computer came to exist. I'm not sure why ID proponents don't realize that they believe human beings were also designed by a real intelligent agent, yet this doesn't disqualify us from being intelligent per se!]
SC Meyer has made it clear that whatever a computer does can indeed be traces back to its designer(s). I don't see why nor how that is an issue. Comnputers and their programs do what they are designed to do. And yes, I would say most IDists, if not all, realize that we can also be tarced back to our designer(s). I have asked RDFish/ aiguy to read "Nature, Design and Science", yet he refuses and acts as if his willful ignorance means something. Oh well. So intelligence just refers to some agency. Intelligence designed and built Stonehenge. Q- What designed and built Stonehenge? A- Intelligence! Q- What do you mean by Intellgence? A- Agency Q- How can you tell when agencies act? A- We find signs of counterflow and work We know that intelligent agencies do act within nature and can & do produce things that nature, operating freely could not. We also know that it matters to any given investigation whether or not what is being investigated arose via nature, operating freely or was agency involvement required. We do have tried and true techniques for determining if nature operated freely or not. That is based on our knowledge and experiences with cause and effect relationships.
There is no evidence whatsoever that ID’s intelligent cause could do anything aside from produce the biological CSI we observe.
Except for all of the evidence presented in "The Privileged Planet". of course. The evidence that says the universe was designed for scientific discovery.
Imagine if we found the Intelligent Designer and asked It, say, why It created so many different types of beetles.
My bet is the designer didn't create so many different types of beetles. ID is NOT anti-evolution. IOW ID is OK with very few or even one designed population of beetles and the rest evolved, BY DESIGN, from them.Joe
July 3, 2013
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