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ScienceBlogs praises disses Dembski-Marks paper on Conservation of Information

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ScienceBlogs has just posted what can only be called a rant (go here) against the paper by Robert Marks and me that was the subject of a post here at UD (for the paper, “Life’s Conservation Law,” go here; for the UD post, go here).

According to ScienceBlogs, the paper fails (or as they put it, “it’s stupid”) because

(1) As a search, evolution is a multidimensional search. Most of our intuitions about search landscapes is based on two or three dimensions. But evolution as a landscape has hundreds or thousands of dimensions; our intuitions don’t work.

(2) Evolution is a dynamic landscape – that is, a landscape that changes in response to the progress of the search. Pretty much every argument that Dembski makes can be thrown out on the basis of this one fact: all of his arguments are based on static landscapes. Once the landscape can change, every single one of his arguments become invalid – none of them work in dynamic landscapes.

(3) As a search, evolution doesn’t have to work on all possible landscapes. It doesn’t even need to work on most landscapes. It works on landscapes that have a particular kind of structure. It doesn’t matter whether evolution will work in every possible landscape — just like it doesn’t matter that fraction notation doesn’t work for every possible real number. What matters is whether it works in the particular kind of landscape in which our theory says it works. And on that question, the answer is quite clear: yes, it works.

Regarding (1), the work by Robert Marks and me typically focuses on compact metric spaces, which can include infinite dimensional spaces; for the purposes of this paper, which simplifies some of our previous work, we went with finite spaces. But even these can approximate any dimensionality we like for empirical investigations. Regarding (2), we explicitly point out that our approach is general enough to model time-dependent fitness functions (see section 8 — hey, why bother reading a paper if you know it’s wrong and can simply intuit the mistakes the authors must make). What ScienceBlogs appears not to appreciate or understand is that time-dependent fitness functions can be modeled by time-independent fitness functions (“static landscapes”) provided that one represents the search space with sufficiently many dimensions (by going to a Cartesian product — we point this out explicitly in our paper). Regarding (3), our point is that precisely because evolution works with constrained landscapes, those constraints require prior information. Yes, the environment is pumping in information; so where did that information come from? ScienceBlogs resents the very question. But what’s the alternative? Simply to say, “Oh, it’s just there.” The Law of Conservation of Information, despite ScienceBlog’s caricatures, provides cogent grounds for thinking that the information had to come from somewhere, i.e., from an information source.

Comments
TM, We have been here before. Like a returning star in a triumphant rebuttal; the search space a la cart. Your argument is trivial in the face of the evidence. You suggest that finding a pot of boiling water on the stove can be explained by the information contained in the pot, stove, and water. No one should be required to ignore the evidence in order to believe you.Upright BiPed
May 10, 2009
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Bill Dembski,
Yes, the environment is pumping in information; so where did that information come from? [Mark Chu-Carroll] resents the very question. But what’s the alternative? Simply to say, “Oh, it’s just there.”
The environment is the physical universe. And there is no physical probability of the universe. This is not to say that we do not know the probability. The phrase "physical probability of the universe" is meaningless. I said more about this in a previous comment. If you treat negative logarithms of probabilities as physical information, then the probabilities themselves must be physical. I cannot find a philosopher specializing in the interpretation of probability who allows you to speak of physical probability in the absence of a repeatable experiment. Please cite any I have missed. Hugh Mellor, professor emeritus of philosophy at Cambridge University and author The Matter of Chance (free PDF available), says outright that
the initial state, if any, of a universe, or of a multiverse, which by definition lacks precursors, has no physical explanation, since there is nothing earlier to give it any physical probability, high or low.
There is no repeatable experiment. From a scientific perspective, the universe simply is what it is. (This works against Dawkins as much as you.) You use rhetoric to put the "activity" into active information. Specifically, you depict Dawkins, Adami, Schneider, and Ray as intelligent agents who create information by violating Laplace's Principle of Indifference. Loosely speaking, they create the environments in their evolutionary processes. Then you leap to nature in general, and leave the reader to "reason" by analogy -- if computational search processes succeed more often than null search only because humans add information to the virtual environments, then evolutionary processes that succeed in what is improbable under a null search model must operate in environments to which information has been added (by what, you decline to say). You ultimately fall back on "Hey, the information can't just come from nowhere." When we move from your pure mathematics to modeling of nature, the "search for a search" regress is not infinite. It resolves in a single step. The universe is the environment of any physical search. And you cannot make the universe itself into a search process, because there is no physical probability distribution on universes. There is no imbalance in the ledger of physical information, for the simple reason that your notion of physical information is ultimately meaningless.T M English
May 10, 2009
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Hoki, If that were the case I would be the first to fight against Dembski and Marks. IOW if someone demonstrated that nature, operating freely can produce a bacterial flagellum, and Dembski/ Marks stepped in and said that it does not falsify the design inference for it, I would be inclined to do something about that.Joseph
May 10, 2009
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Hoki, Remove the requirement for a designer and the design inference falls.Joseph
May 10, 2009
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Nakashim-San, Every time we have observed active information and knew the source, said source has always been an intelligent agency. Always. We have NEVER observed active information arising from nature, operating freely. Never. Therefor when we observe active information and don't know the source it is safe to infer an intelligent agency brought it about. So to refute that inference all one has to do is demonstate that the active info in question can arise via nature, operating freely.Joseph
May 10, 2009
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On page 30 of the paper (my emphasis):
For Häggström, “realistic models” of fitness presuppose “geographical structures,” “link structures,” search space “clustering,” and smooth surfaces conducive to “hill climbing.” All such structures, however, merely reinforce the teleological conclusion we are drawing, which is that the success of evolutionary search depends on the front-loading or environmental contribution of active information. Simply put, if a realistic model of evolutionary processes employs less than the full complement of fitness functions, that’s because active information was employed to constrain their permissible range.
I'm a novice in these matters, but don't evolutionists consider the environment to be the selective force? If everyone agrees that the environment inserts active information, what other source of active information is required?Adel DiBagno
May 10, 2009
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Joseph:
People may not like the paper but all they have to do to refute its premise is to actually support their position that information can arise and increase via nature, operating freely.
I could be wrong here, but IF I read Dembski and Marks correctly, then if active information was found to arise “via nature, operating freely”, then this would, in fact, have been caused by intelligence smuggling the information in somehow. IF this is the case, then I guess that the oft repeated argument that ID would be falsified if natural processes could produce CSI is wrong.Hoki
May 10, 2009
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it is at least possible in theory that someone at ScienceBlogs could praise it.
Yes, we mustn't jump to conclusions about what P.Z. Myers will say. ;P Seriously, you're right that the posts should have credited Chu-Carroll (or "Good Math, Bad Math"). But despite all protestations to the contrary, scienceblogs.com seems to have developed something not too far from a coherent editorial identity in many respects. So it's not all that surprising when others start to talk in terms of that corporate identity rather than just the individual bloggers. Anyhow, here's hoping that a worthwhile exchange develops from this. MarkCC is prone to high-horsing (he is on ScienceBlogs) but he evidently knows his mathematics and I get the impression that he's actually fairly open to reasonable discussion after you filter away the static.anonym
May 10, 2009
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Mr Joseph, As I read it, Mr Chu-Carroll's criticism is not so much of the idea or definition of active information, as much as the leap to situating the active information in a teleological source.Nakashima
May 10, 2009
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That said in a non-ID scenario the word “search” does not belong as there isn’t anything to search for. Only survival counts- well that and the ability to reproduce.
Joe is right :)Alan Fox
May 10, 2009
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This is too funny. People may not like the paper but all they have to do to refute its premise is to actually support their position that information can arise and increase via nature, operating freely. That said in a non-ID scenario the word "search" does not belong as there isn't anything to search for. Only survival counts- well that and the ability to reproduce.Joseph
May 10, 2009
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Hmmm. I thought I had posted something, but maybe I didn't hit submit. The "rant" mentioned in the opening post here was by Mark Chu-Carroll who has a blog at ScienceBlogs. However ScienceBlogs contains many blogs, so it seems misleading to write "ScienceBlogs disses ..." when really it was only one person. Most likely other blogs at ScienceBlogs have not addressed Dembski's paper at all, and it is at least possible in theory that someone at ScienceBlogs could praise it.hazel
May 10, 2009
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Dr. Dembski, Though I don't understand the math of the LCI all that well, it seems to me, from your response to science blog, you have covered all your bases as far as the "infinite" probabilistic resources available to an evolutionary search are concerned. It seems to me this "infinite landscape" objection, on science blog, is very similar to the "Many Worlds" route Koonin tried to take in His paper on the Cambrian explosion, in his trying to find a successful naturalistic resolution for evolution. The Biological Big Bang model: http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/21 And in the criticism to Koonin's paper, it was fair to note, To what recourse will evolution take to access this infinite probabilistic resource available on the quantum level? Does evolution have the magical power to trespass the universal constants? Universal constants under which the infinite probabilistic resources of quantum mechanics are clearly bound to obey in a overarching non-chaotic form? Of course not! Evolution has no power to dictate whether the information reality will present to any evolutionary search will be useful or detrimental for evolution to use in the first place. But there is a much clearer truth in exposing this "infinite possibilities/ Many Worlds" fallacy of evolution. To open up a search to an "infinity of landscapes", which are not bound in any overarching way by any of the universal constants of our reality, in fact greatly increases the percentage of "totally useless/detrimental information" that will be available in the evolutionary search, and in fact makes recourse to a "Information Giver" all the more necessary. i.e. the recourse evolutionists seek for escape, from the implications of intelligent design theory, actually turns into bottomless pit of meaningless information the further they press their case for a truly infinite landscape to search in for evolution. i.e. give them enough rope and they hang themselves.bornagain77
May 10, 2009
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@ #5 David Kellogg and #6 Sotto Voce Thanks, I stand corrected. I ASSumed that because it didn't sound right when I read it that it was wrong. My apologies Mr Dembski. At least I learned a few lessons here. :)IRQ Conflict
May 10, 2009
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Dr. Dembski, I believe your, and Marks, work may find empirical resolution all the down to the quantum level of "our" reality. ----------- Quotes by Anton Zeilinger Quantum theory, correctly interpreted, is information theory. -------------- Put dramatically, Information and reality is the same thing http://www.signandsight.com/features/614.html ------------------ Science & Ultimate Reality Symposium --------- Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/Default.aspx?TabId=68&id=8638&SkinSrc=[G]Skins%2F_default%2FNo+Skin&ContainerSrc=[G]Containers%2F_default%2FNo+Containerbornagain77
May 10, 2009
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Re: 3. On rereading I realise that I got assumption (1) quite wrong. That is not your criterion for the identify of an algorithm. However, my point about assumption 2 still stands.Mark Frank
May 10, 2009
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Marks and I. Sorry, I don’t speak math, but English I understand.
Actually, I think Dr. Dembski's usage is correct here, since "Marks and me" is not the subject of the sentence. The subject is "The work by Marks and me...". The pronoun here is part of a prepositional modifier to the noun phrase, and so it should appear in its objective rather than subjective form. Imagine dropping "Marks". Which sounds correct: "The work by I..." or "The work by me..."? Apologies for the grammatical derail.Sotto Voce
May 9, 2009
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IRQ Conflict, it's "me." "Me" is the object of the preposition "by." The sentence is correct (if inelegant).David Kellogg
May 9, 2009
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I'm aware of the universal law of, "the conservation of energy", well tested, indisputable, accepted fact, part of our universe, uncontroversial, true! This LAW, of the "conservation of information", why exactly is it a LAW?rvb8
May 9, 2009
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As the original thread has become rather long I will take this opportunity to point out (politely I hope) what appear to me to be significant problems with the LCI. I would be interested in your comments. One way of summarising the paper might be this. "The NFL theorem shows that if a search space has no structure then no search algorithm can do better than a blind search. An algorithm can only do better than a blind search if it is adapted to the structure of the search space. However, the search space of the possible genomes of living organisms does have a structure. For the purposes of the paper you are assuming that the Darwinian mechanism is able to take advantage of this structure to increase the probability of "finding" a viable genome to practical levels. But, the LCI shows that the probability of finding an appropriate algorithm among all the possible algorithms will always be so low that it more than compensates for the increase in probability gained through the algorithm. So we are still talking about a fantastically improbable outcome - finding a viable genome." To prove this you have to make some statements about the probability of finding an algorithm. To do this you make two crucial assumptions. 1) You identify an algorithm with the subset of the search space which it produces. So any method that comes up with Bora Bora as the only possible place to look is the same algorithm. 2) You assume that each such algorithm is equally probable - the good old universal probabilty distribution. Both of these seem wrong. (1) leads to strange conclusions, for example, that all algorithms that potentially search the entire space until the target is found are the same as a blind search. (2) might make sense in a context where a searcher can choose from a set of algorithms. But when we are talking about a natural "search" such as natural selection then the search space itself greatly changes the probability of a particular algorithm being used. In fact it may increase the probability to 1. Given selection, replication, and mutation then natural selection must take place. It is caused by these features of the search space. There may be a question as to whether natural selection is able to find viable genomes. But that is a different question (and you are assuming it is possible for the purposes of this paper).Mark Frank
May 9, 2009
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In regards to the first rebuttal point (1) I fail to see how this has any relevance or validity to the paper at all but I asks why don't they just say Evolution has 9 dimensions? After all physicists just add dimensions all the time why cant evolutionists? On point (2)- They just basically showed that they fail to grasp that it is evolution's willy nilly, anything goes allowances that are being critiqued here. Basically they just said "we reject this paper because it doesn't "agree" with our view- not because it fails to accurately and sufficiently criticize it. (3)Apparently they have, for the sake of criticizing Dembski's paper, limited the theory of evolution to only cases that it works for. Of course outside of the context of the critique of this paper they will call it a universal law/ theory or what have you. Moreover they have not defended or explained why their theory should be limited only to cases it works for. That sounds like Cherry picking to me... because it is. And lastly they once again fail to recognize that even the cases they do think their theory applies to can still be criticized in a greater general context. If not so then why not? This argument is absurd. It is no different that creationists saying you cant use fossils as evidence for evolution because our theory only applied to cases it works for- hence the modern human being. Stupid indeed...Frost122585
May 9, 2009
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Marks and I. Sorry, I don't speak math, but English I understand. ;)IRQ Conflict
May 9, 2009
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