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Scientific American quietly disowns Ida “missing link” fossil

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Michael Bloomberg, check your messages. In “Weak Link: Fossil Darwinius Has Its 15 Minutes: Skepticism about a fossil cast as a missing link in human ancestry” (Scientific American, July 21, 2009), Kate Wong observes,

And in an elaborate public-relations campaign, in which the release of a Web site, a book and a documentary on the History Channel were timed to coincide with the publication of the scientific paper describing her in PLoS ONE, Ida’s significance was described in no uncertain terms as the missing link between us humans and our primate kin. In news reports, team members called her “the eighth wonder of the world,” “the Holy Grail,” and “a Rosetta Stone.”

The orchestration paid off, as Ida graced the front page of countless newspapers and made appearances on the morning (and evening) news programs. Gossip outlets, such as People and Gawker, took note of her, too. And Google incorporated her image into its logo on the main search page for a day.

And then it all just melted away, with SciAm being only the latest source to say, “Hey, wait a minute. Shut off the canned wonder track for a minute, will you?”

I will certainly propose for this overall story as a down-list item for the ten top Darwin and Design stories of the year (here is 2008’s list). It’s rare indeed that popular media actually revolt against a proposition in “evolution,” even one as patently foolish as this one – but evidently it happens. And who knows? – raindrops seldom fall solo. More Wong:

Critics concur that Ida is an adapiform, but they dispute the alleged ties to anthropoids. Robert Martin of the Field Museum in Chicago charges that some of the traits used to align Ida with the anthropoids do not in fact support such a relationship. Fusion of the lower jaw, for instance, is not present in the earliest unequivocal anthropoids, suggesting that it was not an ancestral feature of this group. Moreover, the trait has arisen independently in several lineages of mammals—including some lemurs—through convergent evolution. Martin further notes that Ida also lacks a defining feature of the anthropoids: a bony wall at the back of the eye socket. “I am utterly convinced that Darwinius has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of higher primates,” he declares.

The real story here is the desperate need for a secular materialist establishment to find icons of evolution to venerate, Bloomberg-style – and it won’t be their fault if they don’t get a bunch more bogus relics.

My instinct about what went wrong is this: Popular media consider themselves gatekeepers when it comes to creating a craze, and they resent scientists, like the Ida team, who usurp their time-honoured right. Hence their swift revenge.

Comments
Vladimir, LOL... or they slipped on a banana? Seriously, on a historical point, they cannot prove it, it is and always will be a theory of inference re: macro evolution. Though many say it is fact. But Design Theory is by Inference as well. Can we ever prove it? No, not unless the designer shows up. But, we can do Design detection based upon sound engineering principles, forensics and language modeling, computer science models and engineering design principles. I do not see either side having won, only the Darwin side having been in vogue longer, in fashion of the intellectual crowd and with more obvious money power for research. What is interesting after the ENCODE project is multiple layers of information are now being found, just like JunkDNA is critically being turned over, so to is the DNA-Centric Gene model. This may end up being a huge blunder focusing to much effort and research time on a limited small 3-5% of expressed Genes. My guess is, the labs and researchers breaking out into the Non-Coded regions will make even bigger discoveries of regulatory control mechanisms and pathways that hinder or release different developmental morphology. Any well designed computer system, not in any specific order is... 1) Modular and callable 2) Redundant/Mirrored 3) Error-Corrective 4) Compressible 5) Duplicatable 6) Adaptable 7) Top-Down Structured or Guided 8) Defensible 9) Networkable, Communicative and can be Self-Replicating Life DNA, Genomes, viruses, bacteria completes all of these crucial elements by leaps and bounds above our best Computer Scientist and Engineers do today. Worrying about a transitional fossil is like fretting over a bug collection in comparison to what is ahead in genomic research of our cellular architecture. They can look back in history and make claims all they like. The real future ahead is Design architecture classes of life. I was being kind giving Charrington Tiktaalik for his evidence. But in reality, I read people who disagree in the field and are skeptical about it being a transitional fossil or "missing link." Truth is, they cannot prove it and they know this. It is conjecture and a theory. They can argue some points about the fossil all they like, but without direct observation, Tiktaalik might be just another glorified Coelacanth. Many scientist admit we may never know now about our past origins due to such mechanims as HGT. I can accept that. Why Charrington cannot, I do not know.DATCG
July 21, 2009
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Another non-answer, sideways attempt at insults from Charrington... "DATCG Everyday, literally Mr. Charrington research is being done which overturns JunkDNA predictions by Darwinist." "Who is doing that research? Intelligent design proponents?" Besides ignoring the valid point I made, this question has little relevance. Just admit I was right that daily research is being done that overturns Darwinist predictions about JunkDNA. There might be ID proponents doing actual research on non-coded genes. I certainly would not list them for fear of their losing jobs and/or harrassment from peers. I do not own a research lab, yet I can read and discern what is happening in published journals. Are you saying I should shut up because I do not have a lab Charrington? What about you? Do you have a research lab Charrington? So, in that case, since Richard Dawkins is no longer a practicing scientist, then he should keep his mouth shut on such discussions?DATCG
July 21, 2009
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Mr. Charrinton says;
You can never “prove” anything except in maths.
Why do evolutionists always say this? Is it because they believe that elves may have planted all those monkey fossils in the ground just to mess with their heads?Vladimir Krondan
July 21, 2009
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Mr. Charrington, Maybe it is your enormous head that the earth, and we, plus the planets all orbit around? Your ego certainly is big enough to require a head the size of the sun. Yet there is no real attraction to you. Maybe it is you orbiting by yourself Mr. Charrington on a blind vision of self-inflated importance. Do you truly want to venture into personal insults Mr. Charrington? Now that I've had time to review your reponses, there is little left to be said. You did not provide a single transitional fossil. You did not provide a number of transitions. Instead, you ducked, stepped sideways and insulted. You are no better than PZ Meyers with exception of holding your tongue and keeping descent words. If every fossil is transitional, including humans(surprise to many) then there is no such thing as a missing link. Your assertions are baseless and illogical. Why the big search for missing links? Why the big fanfare for Ida? Lucy? Tiktaalik? And the same for every other so-called "missing link"? Again, provide a transitional fossil besides Tiktaalik or Lucy. Certainly you can provide 10 of them at least? Between fish and mamal? Is this to specific for you? Or will you dodge the question with another insult? I gave you Tiktaalic, thats one, the other 9 should be easy. You can give examples on either side of Tiktaalik if you like, that is if its to hard between Tiktaalik and Quadrapeds even. Insults are easy, a real honest discussion of facts however evidently not so easy for you. The reason I laugh so much at the current mess that is Darwin logic is precisely because of people like you Mr. Charrington. You throw out insults and have little facts. You make it much worse for good people in the sciences on either side to discuss the issues. I'm honest and say I do not know and remain unconvinced of Common Descent. You insult me as a result. You might at well be a chimp flinging your waste around at the zoo at onlookers here with such childish attempts. Maybe indeed you are a transition Mr. Charrington, not yet fully evolved? But then, that would destroy the theory that earth and all inhabitants revovle around you.DATCG
July 21, 2009
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Re: 43 - Sorry, that first link doesn't work. The quote comes from Wikipedia's "Ida fossil" article.CannuckianYankee
July 21, 2009
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I found the following quote from Wikipedia interesting: "The authors of the paper describing Darwinius classified it as a member of the primate family Notharctidae, subfamily Cercamoniinae,[2] suggesting that it has the status of a significant transitional form (a "link") between the prosimian and simian ("anthropoid") primate lineages.[5] Others have disagreed with this. Concerns have been raised about the claims made about the fossil's relative importance, and the publicising of the fossil before adequate information was available for scrutiny by the academic community." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_(fossil) Yet, check out what's at the top of the page on their human evolutionary transitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils If there really was no controversy on the matter, then they could rightfully show this, but....CannuckianYankee
July 21, 2009
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BTW, Ms O'Leary, do you agree with KF's FCSI/FSCI views? And do you know Dr. Dembski's position on FCSI/FSCI?sparc
July 21, 2009
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O'Leary @ 40
I think you have completely missed the significance of popular Darwinism.
Opinion polls show that evolution is overwhelmingly rejected by the American public. In what sense can "Darwinism" be said to be popular?
How do I know what evidence to believe?
The usual way is to ask recognized experts in the field. You should consult biologists rather than lawyers or mathematicians or surgeons or computer scientists. No one is questioning the competence of these people in their own fields but if you wanted an authoritative answer to a question about the law would you ask a biologist?
What about Piltdown Man - a fraud that went on for decades that any smart high school student could have detected?
Except that it was not exposed by a smart high school student or creationists or Intelligent Design proponents, it was exposed by scientists. And there were scientists who were suspicious of it almost from the beginning.
Am I right in thinking that “Lucy” is no longer our MOTHER but just an ape somewhere?
Was Lucy ever thought to be our "MOTHER"?
See, I think common ancestry makes a lot of sense. But there are just too many cults going on around it right now to know what to believe. If evolutionary biologists ever get around to cleaning the area up, I will find it easier to look at seriously. For now, I will treat it all as a subset of “Darwinism and popular culture.”
Experience has taught me that, while there a few dedicated science journalists who are worthy of respect, the vast majority of science coverage in the tabloid press is unreliable to say the least. It is, therefore, unlikely that evolutionary biology will be any more discommoded by the skepticism of a journalist than it would be by mine.Seversky
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington, You asked (36) me what I have read: Charles Darwin: The Origin of the Species, The Descent of Man- Daniel Dennett, Breaking the Spell- Michael Behe: Darwin's Black Box, Edge of Evolution- Mike Gene: The Design Matrix- Francis Collins: The Language of God- David Berlinski: The Devil's Delusion - Antony Flew: There is a God - Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, The God Delusion- William Dembski, The Design Revolution, Uncommon Descent, No Free Lunch, Marcel Beauregard/Denise O'Leary: The Spiritual Brain, Jeffery Schwartz: The Mind and the Brain, Victor Stenger; God, The Failed Hypothesis, Fazalle Rana: Origins of Life, Hugh Ross: More than a Theory, and quite a few more; John Polkinghorne, Owen Gingrich, Alister McGrath, John Lennox, and some others. I am an orthodox Christian. I hold no qualified expertise in the life sciences, but I try my best to hold informed opinions. Each of these writers is fully schooled in their respective disciplines and each hold both common and disparate views on the subject of common descent. None of them agree on everything. What is interesting to me however, is the tone of the discussion; Most, but by no means all, on the theistic side of this argment seem argue within an agreed commitment to civil discourse. The non-theists seem to argue with platitudes and contempt for those with whom they disagree. Personally, I find this offensive. I read this blog regularly because it is generally civil and open to opposing views. I believe you may have some interesting things to contribute. As a regular reader however, all I would ask is that you contribute respectfully - even to those with whom you wholeheartedly disagree.toc
July 21, 2009
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Mr. Charrington at 15: I think you have completely missed the significance of popular Darwinism. How do I know what evidence to believe? Michael Bloomberg (supposedly way smarter than me) made an hearse of himself over Ida, the supposed transitional fossil. I'm glad the POTUS didn't join in; busy, doubtless, and well that. What about Piltdown Man - a fraud that went on for decades that any smart high school student could have detected? Am I right in thinking that "Lucy" is no longer our MOTHER but just an ape somewhere? See, I think common ancestry makes a lot of sense. But there are just too many cults going on around it right now to know what to believe. If evolutionary biologists ever get around to cleaning the area up, I will find it easier to look at seriously. For now, I will treat it all as a subset of "Darwinism and popular culture."O'Leary
July 21, 2009
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BA77, great stuff @29 and thanks for all the hard work you put into it. You and folks like Kairosfocus, Joseph, Jerry, DATGG, et al do a great service to science and public education. It's a great pleasure to read all these informative posts and watch the speedy development of ID in real time.Oramus
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington, Horse evolution? The smallest horses are not older than the bigger horses (as evolution would require). But they are arranged in textbooks in such a way that you would believe they were. Evolutionists believe that the smaller horses evolved into the bigger ones. But the dating method they use ( strata layer based on the geologic column ) contradicts their own beliefs. Not only this, but Peter Hastie claims that sometimes 2 of the alleged progressive forms were buried together. Meaning that they lived at the same time, and could not be ancestral to the other (they should be separated by millions of years) "If it were true, you would expect to find the earliest horse fossils in the lowest rock strata. But you don't. In fact, bones of the supposed "earliest" horses have been found at or near the surface. Sometimes they are found right next to modern horse fossils!" (quote from: "What's Happened to the Horse?" by Peter Hastie First published in: Creation 17(4):14-16 Sept.-Nov. 1995) http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/horse.html Whale evolution? Whales - Designed or Evolved? - Marc Surtees - video http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/whales.xml The evidence is plain laughable Mr Charrington. Hope that doesn't hurt your feelings, but the plain fact is no matter which fossil sequence you bring up it will fall apart upon scrutiny. Tiktaalik- Out Of Order Excerpt: One of the problems with an evolutionary interpretation of the fishapods is that these creatures appear to be out of order. For example, Ventastega, an animal that lived about 365 million years ago, is thought to occupy a halfway point between Tiktaalik and amphibians. (Tiktaalik is thought to occupy the midpoint between lobe-finned fish and amphibians) Its skeletal features indicate that it's out of sequence. Older fishapods actually exhibit more advanced features than those of Ventastega. Another fishapod, Panderichthys, causes the same problem. This creature existed about 385 million years ago and is considered to be much closer to a lobe-finned fish than an amphibian. Yet, it has digits at the end of its fins, whereas Tiktaalik, considered to be more advanced, doesn't. Again, the fossils are out of sequence. http://www.reasons.org/OutofOrder "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, whether at the level of orders or of species, we find' over and over again' not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." Paleontologist, Derek V. Ager "A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God." Paleontologist, Mark Czarnecki "There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways, it has become almost unmanageably rich and discovery is outpacing integration. The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." Professor of paleontology - Glasgow University, T. Neville George "Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether". Evolutionist Henry Gee, Nature 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v412/n6843/full/412131a0.html etc... etc... etc.. Mr. Charrington, yet this is all beside the point as far as science is concerned for you must establish that non-teleological processes are generating functional information which has never been shown.bornagain77
July 21, 2009
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Mr. C.
Name 5. I challenge you.
Carl Woese, W. Ford Doolittle, E. Bapteste, E.V. Koonin, M. DiGiulio,Jehu
July 21, 2009
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toc
having read a little bit on this subject, I should think the jury is still out
Care to share? What leads you to think that the jury is out on common descent? What have you read?Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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Jehu
Even the most learned Darwinists now reject it.
Name 5. I challenge you.Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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BA^77
Just a snide comment?
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/horse_evolution.htm http://www.teachersdomain.org/resource/tdc02.sci.life.evo.lp_fossilevid/Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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Mr. Char:
You can never “prove” anything except in maths.
Then why did you claim that you could prove evolution from a single fossil?
You can however come to a reasonably well supported conclusion. And the rest of the world has already mostly done so and accepted common descent as well supported and the best explanation for the available evidence.
I doubt that most of the world's population accepts common descent. Even the most learned Darwinists now reject it. There is no common descent.Jehu
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington, re. 30 I'm not sure what I think about common descent; having read a little bit on this subject, I should think the jury is still out.Your passive-aggressive remark in this particular post, however, is bothersome. Why not try http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ - you might feel much more at home.toc
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington, Just a snide comment? No defense of genetic similarity? Why do you not defend the proposition we came from some chimp like ancestor? Surely you want to pull out your fossils? OH but of course you now have no foundation in which to claim it was random processes that did the change. Plus of course you have no sequence of fossils to stand up to scrutiny...But don't let that bother you. Do you want to now argue for Theistic Evolution as others have once confronted with evidence, or are you just going to hide behind shallow rhetoric?bornagain77
July 21, 2009
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Man is indeed as unique, as different from all other animals, as had been traditionally claimed by theologians and philosophers. Evolutionist Ernst Mayr Most materialists are adamant Darwinian evolution is proven true when we look at the supposed 98.8% genetic similarity between chimps and man. Though suggestive, the gene similarity, even if true, is not nearly good enough to be considered conclusive scientific proof. Primarily this "lack of conclusiveness" is due to concerns with the second law of thermodynamics and with the Law of Conservation of Information. But of more pressing concern, body plans are not even encoded in the DNA code in the first place. This inability of body plans to be reduced directly to the DNA code is clearly shown by Cortical Inheritance. Cortical Inheritance: The Crushing Critique Against Genetic Reductionism - Arthur Jones - video Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JzQ8ingdNY Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1bAX93zQ5o This inability for the DNA code to account for body plans is also clearly shown by extensive mutation studies to the DNA of different organisms which show "exceedingly rare" major morphological effects from mutations to the DNA code. Hopeful monsters,' transposons, and the Metazoan radiation: Excerpt: Viable mutations with major morphological or physiological effects are exceedingly rare and usually infertile; the chance of two identical rare mutant individuals arising in sufficient propinquity to produce offspring seems too small to consider as a significant evolutionary event. These problems of viable "hopeful monsters" render these explanations untenable. Paleobiologists Douglas Erwin and James Valentine This includes the highly touted four-winged fruit fly mutations. ...Advantageous anatomical mutations are never observed. The four-winged fruit fly is a case in point: The second set of wings lacks flight muscles, so the useless appendages interfere with flying and mating, and the mutant fly cannot survive long outside the laboratory. Similar mutations in other genes also produce various anatomical deformations, but they are harmful, too. In 1963, Harvard evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr wrote that the resulting mutants “are such evident freaks that these monsters can be designated only as ‘hopeless.’ They are so utterly unbalanced that they would not have the slightest chance of escaping elimination through natural selection." - Jonathan Wells Darwin's Theory - Fruit Flies and Morphology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs If all that wasn't enough, the Human Genome Project really put the last nail in the coffin for "Genetic Reductionism": DNA: The Alphabet of Life - David Klinghoffer Excerpt: But all this is trivial compared to the largely unheralded insight gained from the Human Genome Project, completed in 2003. The insight is disturbing. It is that while DNA codes for the cell's building blocks, the information needed to build the rest of the creature is seemingly, in large measure, absent. ,,,The physically encoded information to form that mouse, as opposed to that fly, isn't there. Instead, "It is as if the 'idea' of the fly (or any other organism) must somehow permeate the genome that gives rise to it." Thus the 98.8% similarity derived from the DNA code, to the body plans of chimps and man, is purely imaginary, since it is clearly shown that the overriding "architectural plan" of the body is not even encoded in the DNA in the first place. Of more clarity though, this "98.8% similarity evidence" is derived by materialists from a very biased methodology of presuming that the 1.5% of the genome, which directly codes for proteins, has complete precedence of consideration over the other remaining 98.5% of the genome which does not directly code for proteins. Yet even when considering just this 1.5% of the genome that codes for proteins, we find that the proteins, which are directly coded by that 1.5% of the genome, are shown to differ by a huge 80% difference between chimps and man. Chimps are not like humans - May 2004 Excerpt: the International Chimpanzee Chromosome 22 Consortium reports that 83% of chimpanzee chromosome 22 proteins are different from their human counterparts,,, The results reported this week showed that "83% of the genes have changed between the human and the chimpanzee—only 17% are identical—so that means that the impression that comes from the 1.2% [sequence] difference is [misleading]. In the case of protein structures, it has a big effect," Sakaki said. Eighty percent of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees; Gene; Volume 346, 14 February 2005: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15716009 On top of that huge 80% difference in proteins, the oft quoted 98.8% DNA similarity is not even rigorously true in the first place. Just considering this 1.5% of the genome, other recent comparisons of the protein coding genes, between chimps and man, have yielded a similarity of only 96%. Whereas, the December 2006 issue of PLoS ONE reported that human and chimpanzee gene copy numbers differ by 6.4%, which gives a similarity of only 93.6% (Hahn). Even more realistically, to how we actually should be looking at the genomes from a investigative starting point, Dr. Hugh Ross states the similarity is closer to 85% to 90% when taking into account the chimp genome is about 12% larger than the human genome. A recent, more accurate, human/chimp genome comparison study, by Richard Buggs in 2008, has found when he rigorously compared the recently completed sequences in the genomes of chimpanzees to the genomes of humans side by side, the true genome similarity between chimps and man fell to slightly below 70%! Why is this study ignored since the ENCODE study has now implicated 100% high level functionality across the entire human genome? Finding compelling evidence that implicates 100% high level functionality across the entire genome clearly shows the similarity is not to be limited to the very biased "only 1.5% of the genome" studies of materialists. Chimpanzee? 10-10-2008 - Dr Richard Buggs - research geneticist at the University of Florida ...Therefore the total similarity of the genomes could be below 70%. http://www.refdag.nl/artikel/1366432/Chimpanzee.html If you noticed, the chimpanzee is found to have a 12% larger genome than humans. Thus, at first glance it would seem the chimpanzee is more evolved than us, but this discrepancy is no anomaly of just chimps/humans. This disparity of genome sizes is found throughout life. There is no logical "evolutionary" progression to be found for the amount of DNA in less complex animals to the DNA found in more complex animals. In fact the genome sizes are known to vary widely between Kinds/Species and this mystery is known as the c-value enigma: C-value enigma Excerpt: "it was soon found that C-values (genome sizes) vary enormously among species and that this bears no relationship to the presumed number of genes (as reflected by the complexity of the organism). For example, the cells of some salamanders may contain 40 times more DNA than those of humans. Given that C-values were assumed to be constant because DNA is the stuff of genes, and yet bore no relationship to presumed gene number, this was understandably considered paradoxical;" This following paper reiterates the biased methodology of establishing 98.8% similarity, between chimps and man, used by materialists: "The Unbearable Lightness of Chimp-Human Genome Similarity excerpt: One can seriously call into question the statement that human and chimp genomes are 99% identical. For one thing, it has been noted in the literature that the exact degree of identity between the two genomes is as yet unknown (Cohen, J., 2007. “Relative differences: The myth of 1%,” Science 316: 1836.). Part of the reason for this is if one decides to take into account the plethora of species-specific DNA insertions and deletions (“indels”) that are present along any segment compared between chimp and human, the percentage of identity drops. Another reason is that duplications, inversions, translocations, and transpositions at all scales uniquely characterize the two genome sequences — these have to be untangled before aligning the sequences in order to measure their similarity. Also, the 99% identity figure is often derived from protein-coding regions that only comprise about 1.5% of the two genomes. Many mammalian protein-coding regions are highly conserved, however. We also have to consider that a detailed comparison of certain “heterochromatic” chromosome regions between chimps and humans has yet to be made. In short, the figure of identity that one wants to use is dependent on various methodological factors." As well, there are at least 50 to 100 genes which are completely unique to humans: Among the approximately 23,000 genes found in human DNA there may be,, 50 to 100 that have no counterparts in other species. In Barrow and Tippler's book The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, they list ten steps necessary in the course of human evolution, each of which, is so improbable that if left to happen by chance alone, the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have incinerated the earth. They estimate that the odds of the evolution (by chance) of the human genome is somewhere between 4 to the negative 180th power, to the 110,000th power, and 4 to the negative 360th power, to the 110,000th power. Therefore, if evolution did occur, it literally would have been a miracle and evidence for the existence of God. William Lane Craigbornagain77
July 21, 2009
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Jehu
That is patently false for a number of reasons. But to focus on just one, similar or even identical morphology does not necessarily indicate a direct relationship. Therefore, you can never prove homology from a fossil.
What conclusions have you come to from your study of the available evidence in the fossil record? You can never "prove" anything except in maths. You can however come to a reasonably well supported conclusion. And the rest of the world has already mostly done so and accepted common descent as well supported and the best explanation for the available evidence.Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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DATCG
Everyday, literally Mr. Charrington research is being done which overturns JunkDNA predictions by Darwinist.
Who is doing that research? Intelligent design proponents?
but am not against CD if good, sound, evidence is produced.
What form would that evidence have to take to convince you?
Do not quote book titles. Give live links to those fossils you think represent transitions.
Why? You have already admitted such things exist.
I do not need a book on palenontology. I asked for links to transition fossils we can all look at online.
You can "Look inside" the book at that link. Try it.
Now, how many more transtion fossils are there in the record? Thousands?
They all are. Or rather, the ones that have descendents are. The ones that go extinct are after all not transitioning to anything.Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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Mr. Charrington, "Would you like links to just a small fraction of it?" You said links. You should have said, "links to books on Amazon.com" if you want to be a literalist here. I do not need a book on palenontology. I asked for links to transition fossils we can all look at online. It can be articles from magazines, news, scientific blogs, etc. I'll even accept Tiktaalik and Lucy, hows that? That gives you TWO Transtion fossils. Now, how many more transtion fossils are there in the record? Thousands? Can you answer this simple question? And how many more should there be? I'm very confused now that you would ask between what and what on Tiktaalik. It is obvious on both sides either from Fish to Tiktaalik or Tiktaalik to Mamal. Unless you accept Gould's version of Evolution? Maybe you do. I have to prepare for meeting this evening I must attend. I'll check back in later tonight.DATCG
July 21, 2009
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Mr Char
They are. They all are. And in any case, you only really need a single one [Transitional fossil] to prove evolution happens.
That is patently false for a number of reasons. But to focus on just one, similar or even identical morphology does not necessarily indicate a direct relationship. Therefore, you can never prove homology from a fossil.Jehu
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington, Do not quote book titles. Give live links to those fossils you think represent transitions. Intellectual bluffing is really not a good way to win an argument. Produce some links with the information that everyone can see. Certainly you have links? Why do you think Lucy is good enough? Or Tiktaalik for that matter? As to between what and what - between Fish and Tiktaalic. Are you telling me you expect no more transitions? So you believe in punctuated evoution? Frankly, I need to understand your beliefs as much as you need to understand mine.DATCG
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington, LOL... Todays evidence is the falling of Ida. If not good enough, try this article from yesterday: Genomic JunkDNA not so Junky afterall Why so literal Mr. Charrington? Were you this skeptical of Ida? Of Lucy? Of Tiktaalik? Or, of Gradualism? Of Darwin's TOL? Now you want to be a literalist here? LOL... this is to funny. I put in JunkDNA for a reason. Everyday, literally Mr. Charrington research is being done which overturns JunkDNA predictions by Darwinist. As top CD, I comment above. I'm agnostic and do not believe enough sound, scientific evidence exist for it. I remain unconvinced and skeptical especially with HGT as a valid mechanism, but am not against CD if good, sound, evidence is produced. I personally do not consider Tiktaalik or Lucy good enough evidence. I think that the failure of JunkDNA prediction will have more ramifications for common descent as well. Afterall, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in comparison to Chimps/Man, didn't they only compare the Coded Regions? At firts it was 98% same, then 96, 95... it keeps going down and I wonder if anyone has compared the Non-Coded Regions? Plus we now have different genes in blood and tissue just discovered and added to the mixture. Now that I think about this, my statement wasn't to far over the top. Thanks. Or do you still think JunkDNA is real? Do you still think the Darwinian TOL is real? Maybe you should read latest research in the areas of HGT and papers by Doolittle and Baptiste. What we have are many "mechanisms" now. RM&NS was admitted to not be enough for macro-evolution - the creating of novel information. HGT being a new driver for a faster evolution also confuses the information trail. It fogs up the trail where scientist admit they may never know the beginning or be able to map common lines of descent. Honestly, this is not new. It is a good start and admission. I rather like it. Its honest.DATCG
July 21, 2009
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DATCG
Tiktaalik? The Australian dwarf? Lucy?
Handbook of Paleoanthropology: Vol I:Principles, Methods and Approaches Vol II:Primate Evolution and Human Origins Vol III:Phylogeny of Hominids http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Paleoanthropology-Principles-Approaches-Evolution/dp/3540338586/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248212864&sr=1-5
Sure, give us your links. I’m sure I’ve seen them, but maybe you have new information.
I suspect those volumes will keep you busy for some time.
How many transitional fossils should be found according to Darwinian theory of Gradualism? Can you give us a number?
Generally, all of them.
There should be many more transition fossils found according to the theory of Gradualism than of the fully formed fossils we have today.
Care to name the ones you agree are transitional? How many are there that you agree are transitional? To be honest, 1 transitional fossil probably invalidates many peoples idea of what ID is all about. Under ID there is no need (nor, in fact is it possible) to have *any* transitional fossils.
There are hundreds and thousands who are not convinced of Darwin’s Unguided theory of Macro-evolution.
When those people get round to publishing in the peer reviewed journal network let me know.
Your comment makes it seem as if transition fossils are abundant all around us.
They are. They all are. And in any case, you only really need a single one to prove evolution happens. And you've admitted there is at least one already. Therefore you have already lost this point!
I personally do not know what to think about Common Descent. I remain unconvinced at this time. Consider my views agnostic as there is not enough evidence for me to discern if current scientific consensus is correct.
Then there will probably never be sufficient evidence for you then. Do you believe that the earth orbits the sun or are you agnostic on that consensus also? Tell me, what's the alternative you are holding out for?
I’ve even been willing to give Tiktaalik a pass, but where are all the other fossils between?
Between what and what?Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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hdx
No O’leary and Herb tried to extend the blame to all evolutionists and to all the material securalist establishment and this is clearly false.
No they didn't. Evolutionists who new that Ida was all hype and no substance have quoted from the beginning on this and other blogs. You are just trying to cover up for you pathetic and unfounded accusation.
The dating of the fossil and the features present in the fossil are consistent with what is believed to be true about primate evolution.
That is long ways from validation of macro evolution.Jehu
July 21, 2009
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"Some really convincing evidence has shown up." Tiktaalik? The Australian dwarf? Lucy? "Would you like links to just a small fraction of it?" Sure, give us your links. I'm sure I've seen them, but maybe you have new information. You say, "small fraction?" Do you have ample evidence of more? If so, please link the Motherlode. And a "small fraction" of what? How many transitional fossils should be found according to Darwinian theory of Gradualism? Can you give us a number? There should be many more transition fossils found according to the theory of Gradualism than of the fully formed fossils we have today. Yet I've seen scant evidence of this, a small fraction of a small fraction, of a small fraction. How many transition fossils should we find? 1, 2, 3... 10... 100... 1000... 10,000? "I understood you to be a science journalist? Then you must have met hundreds, if not thousands of people who all think common descent is a fact. What do you know that they don’t?" Appealing to consensus after being warned not to? There are hundreds and thousands who are not convinced of Darwin's Unguided theory of Macro-evolution. Please note my words carefully, "unguided" and "macro." Your comment makes it seem as if transition fossils are abundant all around us. Please show the evidence you have. I personally do not know what to think about Common Descent. I remain unconvinced at this time. Consider my views agnostic as there is not enough evidence for me to discern if current scientific consensus is correct. Lucy after the fanfare died down and other scientist got to look at the fossil, the area where the evidence was found, etc., ended up being more like any other chimp and less a missing link. I've even been willing to give Tiktaalik a pass, but where are all the other fossils between? It'll be interesting to see if you have an abundance of evidence.DATCG
July 21, 2009
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@10
No kidding. Yet the media circus happened anyway. That is the whole point.
No O'leary and Herb tried to extend the blame to all evolutionists and to all the material securalist establishment and this is clearly false.
Dream on. It validates nothing or the sort. The dating of the fossil and the features present in the fossil are consistent with what is believed to be true about primate evolution.
hdx
July 21, 2009
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