Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should ID include AI as a form of Intelligence? I think so

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So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing).

Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems. The problem is that we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence in any formal way. With no disrespect intended toward those with severe mental handicaps, yes such people are conscious, but there is a point a robotic automaton might be capable of generating more Specified Improbability than such an individual. Thus the line between real and artificial, as far as what is produced, becomes blurred.

Some of us have imagined building robots that will land on a planet and tame it and build cities. They will act pretty much like human engineers and construction workers — doing research on the environment, gathering information, and building structures for human beings that will later colonize the planet. It is a dream, but it is, as of this juncture, possible in principle. Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred.

Why do I throw this out? Well:

1. I see RDFish and Mapou and others commenting, and maybe they want to chime in
2. From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability

What we can say is that given a system with an initial condition and certain boundary conditions, even assuming it is intelligent, it will probably not create certain kinds of Specified Improbability. For example, let us assume bacteria are examples of AI. We do not expect them to create multicellular creatures based on what we know about their capabilities. We can even assume the process of natural selection is AI (where Natural Selection is an AI genetic algorithm in the wild), given it’s level of intelligence, we do not expect it to build extravagant artifacts. I pointed out the reasons here:
How Darwinists confuse the extravagant with the essential.

We can say an adding machine is intelligent, but we do not think, in and of itself it will build a space shuttle.

If a certain AI system (like Natural Selection in the wild) is incapable of constructing certain artifacts, it suggests a greater intelligence was required to construct it. A greater intelligence than Natural Selection in the wild was needed to evolve flight from primitive bacteria, for example.

We rate the capability of various intelligence systems, and it is reasonable to affix limitations on them. This I think is a better way to frame the problem. Whether the Intelligence that made the wonders of life is God, A Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence…it is irrelevant to the design inference. We might however be able to make statements about the level of capability of that intelligence.

I will say this, it appears to me, the intelligence that makes a creature as awesome as a monarch butterfly seems far beyond the collective intelligence of humanity, and certainly far above the “intelligence” of natural selection in the wild. For some, they call this intelligence God, other leave it as an open question, but it seems clear to me it was an intelligence of great ability.

I know many of my ID colleagues will disagree or will remain skeptical of adopting such a convention. I put the idea on the table however, because I think it needs to be discussed.

Comments
Mung
November 20, 2013
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Mung writes his off topic:
Satan is the great deceiver because he is the greatest concealer, the mightiest perverter of truth, the ultimate misleader, and the most convincing fraud and liar. http://www.orthodoxresearchins....._satan.htm Repent, before it’s too late.
You've got a few screws loose. That is way off topic. You're banned from these discussions and you've been told repeatedly.scordova
November 18, 2013
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A complex design can be created faster by intelligent being than by random process, so the variable 'time' creeps in and when considering ET, 'time' is not invariant Let's take an example, consider that ET designs and transports a complex system at 3/5 speed of light, so the relativistic time will be calculated as: SquareRoot[1-(v^2/c^2)]. 'c' is speed of light and v = 3/5c, so we get the result 4/5. Interpretation: If it takes 5000 years by Earth time, the ET time would be 4000 years only. Of course there is the problem of calculating if there is acceleration when the complex design/process is delivered from one place to another. The relativistic time would become absurdly different. Unless you know whether a design is by ET or whether the design was delivered to Earth or wherever, there is no way to gauge and measure the complexity of a process or system.selvaRajan
November 18, 2013
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Satan is the great deceiver because he is the greatest concealer, the mightiest perverter of truth, the ultimate misleader, and the most convincing fraud and liar. http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/evangelinidis_satan.htm Repent, before it's too late.Mung
November 18, 2013
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bannedMung
November 18, 2013
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Sal
For this reason, I consider the consciousness issue an irrelevancy that maybe shouldn’t be the core of ID. Central issues:
I am inclined to agree, though I am still thinking about it. I may become a serious issue some day if people start saying that computers have become conscious.
I accept I am conscious. I cannot formally prove it to others.
Right, you cannot prove it to others, but you can know it. A self-evident truth, by definition, is one that can be known but cannot be proven. It is the standard by which we prove other things. Without it, nothing can be proven.
Also, I accept a fetus is conscious. I cannot prove it to others.
Right you are. Only our own consciousness is self-evident to us. On the other hand, we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a fetus is a human being.
Consciousness is not self-evidently true even during the life time of individuals (myself included) that we presume are conscious. Was I conscious when I was 3-month during my mother’s term in pregnancy. I don’t know. Oddly, I think I should be in the best position to know, but I don’t because when consciousness exists is not self evidently true.
Well, consciousness is only self-evident to you if you are conscious and aware. If you are not conscious, then you cannot be aware of something that you don't have. Notice, by the way, that you can know this. You don't have to take it on faith. It is self evident to you, is it not? Many other things are equally self evident.StephenB
November 18, 2013
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scordova @40, I agree with your views on consciousness and its relevance to ID. However, I do believe that there are aspects of nature that cannot be created without consciousness or a spirit. They have to do with beauty. The extravagant beauty we see in nature could not have been designed by an unconscious robot unless that robot was somehow directed by a conscious being. But I digress. Consciousness is irrelevant to ID and CSI at this juncture. People say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I say it's in the spirit. I see no way to obtain a formal description of beauty because it is not a property of matter. Yet, we know it when we see it.Mapou
November 18, 2013
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On this point, I would disagree strongly. We know we are conscious because it is self evidently true.
I accept I am conscious. I cannot formally prove it to others. Also, I accept a fetus is conscious. I can't prove it to others. At what point is it or is it not during pregnancy? Ergo it is not self evident. Even I cannot estimate at what point during my mother's pregnancy I attained consciousness. It is not self-evidently true. My mother experienced extreme pain once related to cancer treatment. She had no recollection of that time. I believe she was conscious at that time, but no one can prove it to her, nor can she prove it to herself. Consciousness is not self-evidently true even during the life time of individuals (myself included) that we presume are conscious. Was I conscious when I was 3-month during my mother's term in pregnancy. I don't know. Oddly, I think I should be in the best position to know, but I don't because when consciousness exists is not self evidently true. I have cells in my body that did more amazing things than my conscious mind can do - like construct a nervous system. Are my cells sentient beings because they outdid my conscious mind? For this reason, I consider the consciousness issue an irrelevancy that maybe shouldn't be the core of ID. Central issues: 1. plausibility of OOL 2. plausibility of Darwinism The consciousness issue can be debated separately outside of ID as we are doing now.scordova
November 18, 2013
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vjtorley @33:
6. Since there cannot be an infinite regress of explanations, we are forced to conclude that while an AI system might have generated life on Earth, it must have been sent there by a Designer who is genuinely capable of using language, in the way that we can.
From my perspective, I see no reason in principle that an AI system cannot learn to use language in exactly the way humans use it. The primary requisite for language is the ability to make analogies, i.e., to understand how a symbol can stand for something and to recognize metaphors. Analogy-making can be completely automated, in my opinion. This will happen in the not too distant future. Wait for it.Mapou
November 18, 2013
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What is wrong with that? This is how science progresses.
First you have to have a theory or hypothesis, maybe do some experiments that appear to support that theory. Then, yes, others can try to repeat those experiments to see if they can be duplicated. Maybe suggest a better theory with a better fit to the data. No problem. But ID needs that first testable hypothesis to get to the scientific starting gate. Finding perceived flaws in evolutionary theory won't advance ID one bit.Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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Let’s carry on with the old shtick of attempting to knock holes in evolutionary theory.
What is wrong with that? This is how science progresses. What is unnerving is that some in the atheist/materialist camp believe that science progresses by knocking holes in religion and astrology and will not suffer science to be criticized.Mapou
November 18, 2013
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We know we are conscious because it is self evidently true.
How so?Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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scordova:
No one can formally prove consciousness exists, but it is believable. The deepest truths are not provable, we have to accept them as faith axioms.
On this point, I would disagree strongly. We know we are conscious because it is self evidently true. Here we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement that seems to come up from time to time. You appear to embrace fideism, which denies the power of unaided human reason to reach certitude and affirms that the fundamental act of human knowledge consists in an act of faith. If that is your position, you will always be giving unnecessary ground to your materialist adversaries (or friends, as the case may be). Each time they press you to provide a rational defense for your most fundamental principles, you will be reduced to saying, "I can't defend it, I just believe it." They will love you for it I am sure, because they will realize that you have lost the intellectual battle even before you enter the arena. The main offensive weapon of the Materialist, and his strongest tool for defending Darwinism, is the false idea that we cannot really know anything unless it can be proven through empirical investigation. Since that doctrine cannot itself be proven through empirical investigation, it refutes itself. Still, the materialist clings to it for dear life. If you grant him that one prize, the one that really counts, he will have no difficulty in smashing your ID sympathies (and also your religious faith) into little pieces with it.StephenB
November 18, 2013
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So which is it? Do we need to pin down a definition of “intelligence” or don’t we? And if we can’t agree on a definition, what is it, in your opinion, that then becomes impossible?
For me, this is a hypothetical question as I think "Intelligent Design" is an empty concept. But not having a theory or a concept or any operational definitions for any of the concepts you are trying to demonstrate is a handicap if you are out to show ID is a scientific pursuit. I don't dogmatically say you can't carry on and look for well, whatever it is you are going to look for. I would admire anyone that actually got going and made an effort. As I said, though, in those circumstances I can't see where you would start. You and anyone are welcome to start, however, with all god speed from me.
BTW, you presumably are aware that evolution (in its materialistic sense) operates as a foil for purposeful design (and vice versa). Critiquing the many failings of evolutionary theory is certainly a legitimate exercise in its own right; it is additionally relevant to the extent it is — as so often is the case — wielded as an attack against the idea of design in the world. Darwin was a prime example of this, and his followers are still at it.
It is probably true to say that a large part of the criticism directed at Darwin's ideas was religiously motivated and I guess it's still true but to a much lesser extent. The biological sciences seem to be a particular bête noir for some religious groups but it seems inevitable when dogma is allowed to outweigh facts. The Dalai Lama wrote:
My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.
Dalai Lama: The Universe in a Single AtomAlan Fox
November 18, 2013
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Hi Sal, Thanks for a very thought-provoking post. The questions you raise are valid ones, and they do need to be confronted. A few thoughts: 1. The question of whether the Intelligent Designer is conscious is a red herring. Consciousness is commonly envisaged in phenomenal terms, as a subjective feeling of "what it is like" to be an entity of a certain kind (e.g. a bat, a dog or a human being). Many Christians would adamantly deny that God is conscious in that sense: they would say that He has no "inner life," and they would reject as anthropomorphic the very notion that He does. Thomists would fall into this category, for instance: for them, God is in no way passive, so He has no experiences of anything. His intelligence is entirely active. Other Christians (e.g. Richard Swinburne) would reject this view. I think it would be unwise for the Intelligent Design movement to take sides in this dispute. 2. For me, an important question is whether the Intelligent Designer has foresight or not. For instance, James Shapiro's non-Darwinian mechanism for evolution is "feeling-intelligent" but not "seeing-intelligent": it can select the best alternative from those that are available, but it can't "look ahead" to the long-term future. 3. Describing a colony of bacteria or an ant hill as intelligent is misleading. They lack foresight. They can exchange information very efficiently, but they can't plan ahead. 4. Another important question is whether the Intelligent Designer is capable of using language or not. Only a language-using entity can design a code, such as we find in living things. And only a language-using entity can answer questions such as: "Why did you design it that way, and not some other way?" 5. AI systems are programmed in some kind of language, but are not able to use language in the flexible way I outlined above: that is, even if they can be programmed to converse on a limited range of topics, they are incapable of critiquing their own internal logic. Hence whatever "intelligence" they may be said to possess is secondary. 6. Since there cannot be an infinite regress of explanations, we are forced to conclude that while an AI system might have generated life on Earth, it must have been sent there by a Designer who is genuinely capable of using language, in the way that we can. 7. Finally, the fact that we now know that even the multiverse must have had a beginning means that atheists cannot take refuge in an infinite regress of robots, or a "Robot in the sky." My two cents.vjtorley
November 18, 2013
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Alan Fox @30: So which is it? Do we need to pin down a definition of "intelligence" or don't we? And if we can't agree on a definition, what is it, in your opinion, that then becomes impossible? ----- BTW, you presumably are aware that evolution (in its materialistic sense) operates as a foil for purposeful design (and vice versa). Critiquing the many failings of evolutionary theory is certainly a legitimate exercise in its own right; it is additionally relevant to the extent it is -- as so often is the case -- wielded as an attack against the idea of design in the world. Darwin was a prime example of this, and his followers are still at it.Eric Anderson
November 18, 2013
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AI and robots that produce CSI are not natural processes. Thus they do not threaten ID. Frankly, I don't see any problem for ID. Maybe scordova and others can explain further.Mapou
November 18, 2013
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Thus we get sidetracked on discussion about NFL, rather than seeing clearly that mindless OOL and Darwinian evolution in the wild will not work.
I had to smile at this bit of Sal logic. Lets not get sidetracked on whether proponents of "Intelligent Design" will ever present a theory or hypothesis, or even a working definition of "intelligence". Let's carry on with the old shtick of attempting to knock holes in evolutionary theory. Yeah, that'll work! :)Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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Sal @23:
It raises, at least in principle, the possibility, non-conscious entities making CSI. Why do I bring this up, you can expect enemies of ID to throwing stuff like this in our face in the future. I’m surprised they haven’t said as much until now. But I’m putting it on the table before they say, “We told you so.”
This is nothing new (your particular effort to resolve it may be, I don't know). Materialists have been claiming for a long time that non-conscious entities can make CSI. Ever since Dawkin's discredited Weasel "program," Avida, and all the others. The claim is always the same: We can get CSI from purely natural processes, through Darwinian trial and error. This is the heart of Elizabeth Liddle's concern about ID, for example. Again, I think you need to be more careful to distinguish between a surrogate reproducing CSI and the original source of the CSI. It seems that is the key to the discussion.Eric Anderson
November 18, 2013
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Some will ask, "well if not God, then who created the first life". Some have seriously said it is the great computer in the sky -- Seth Lloyd, for example. Fred Hoyle (intelligent universe), and Frank Tipler (sort of, non-traditional conception of the Christian God). The multiverse is sort of a mindless OOL mechanism.scordova
November 18, 2013
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Isn’t it the case that ID is about the source or cause of the creative conception that informs CSI rather than the method by which it is produced? If so, isn’t it the case that a robot could never be the source of that creative conception? Isn’t ID less about playing the music and more about writing the score?
There are several issues within ID: 1. mindless OOL 2. Darwinian evolution 3. the necessity of conscious intelligence to create life #1 and #2 can be dealt with without having to answer #3 first. Refute #1 and #2, and #3 can be accepted by many with a small step of faith. I don't know whether #3 can be formally demonstrated, but I accept it as true on reasonable grounds. No one can formally prove consciousness exists, but it is believable. The deepest truths are not provable, we have to accept them as faith axioms. I do believe the ultimate source of all CSI comes from God, but we keep hearing ID proponents say, "CSI cannot increase except via conscious intelligence", to which I say,
"maybe on average that is true, but if that is the case on average, that means there are some processes that are above average, like chess playing machines! Average means there are things above and below average, and hence, the force of NFL claims can always be objected to on the grounds we are seeing some deviation from the mean."
Thus we get sidetracked on discussion about NFL, rather than seeing clearly that mindless OOL and Darwinian evolution in the wild will not work. The mission of UD is serving the ID community. If ID sympathizers like myself and Mapou raise these issues, how much more will the opponents of ID?scordova
November 18, 2013
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scordova:
It raises, at least in principle, the possibility, non-conscious entities making CSI. Why do I bring this up, you can expect enemies of ID to throwing stuff like this in our face in the future. I’m surprised they haven’t said as much until now. But I’m putting it on the table before they say, “We told you so.”
Isn't it the case that ID is about the source or cause of the creative conception that informs CSI rather than the method by which it is produced? If so, isn't it the case that a robot could never be the source of that creative conception? Isn't ID less about playing the music and more about writing the score?StephenB
November 18, 2013
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BTW, are you claiming that we cannot look into effects of intelligence, or consider whether intelligence is different from purely natural processes unless we can come up with a comprehensive, mutually-agreed-by-all definition of “intelligence?”
Nope! Go ahead. Who's we in this instance?Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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fossil @14:
That being said, Mapou, I am a little uneasy with what you believe is intelligence. If intelligence is a matter of sensory perception working through some logic circuitry then the computer on my desk is intelligent. I then can ask does a creature such as a spider display intelligence when it builds a web. From what I know the spider is completely preprogrammed and can do the job the minute it is born. If a boulder rolls down a hill and is deflected when it hits an object is that intelligence? After all it could be considered a form of preprogramming like crystal growth. But I don’t think such things are true intelligence.
I see your point but, IMO, whether or not the behavior is preprogrammed, all of those things are intelligent. It's a matter of degree of sophistication. What we're after here is what some refer as "true intelligence". Humans have it and many animals have it too. It involves the ability to learn patterns and sequences of pattern through sensory experience. It's all in the timing of events. This kind of learning is self-programming. From this ability comes the making of predictions, anticipation, planning and goal-oriented behavior. The latter is the holy grail of robotics, so to speak. All of those things can be done by a computer program.
The term AI (artificial intelligence) was coined when people in computer science began to mimic the human mind. The outcome of that were expert systems which only work in a very limited capacity. It is true that to the average person such a system has the appearance of intelligence but the rules are generally inflexible. Even when the program is able to alter itself there are usually set boundaries beyond which it cannot go unless one wishes to dabble in pure statistical probability.
Yeah, the early AI pioneers, following in the footsteps of Alan Turing, believed that intelligence was just the manipulation of symbols. Based on that assumption, they could produce nothing but limited domain AI programs, the expert systems that you mentioned. It took nearly half a century to put all that nonsense to rest. Nowadays, the buzzwords are "machine learning", "statistics" and "prediction". This is all well and good but the problem is that most of the AI community has embarked on yet another wild goose chase by adopting Bayesian statistics as the basis of perceptual learning. The Bayesian Brain hypothesis is turning out to be pretty successful and is the basis of impressive progress in such areas of speech and visual recognition. However, IMO, the Bayesian approach is wrong. There are aspects of perceptual learning that it cannot handle. One such problem is the cocktail party problem, i.e., the brain's ability to focus on one speaker in a roomful of other speakers and extraneous noise.
Compare that to the human mind that can appreciate unquantifiable data – that can create things without a precedent. How do you program that? Perhaps what I am saying is that to me real intelligence is not mechanical, it goes way beyond that.
Well, I don't think so. We can write programs that can deal with uncertainty and probabilistic phenomena in the sensory space. The assumption that we can create things without precedent is not really true. Everything new is based on older things. It's all part of the learning process. In the end, it's all about the ability to recognize and reason about causes and their effects.Mapou
November 18, 2013
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Creating CSI will be a routine capability of our intelligent machines. In a way, we can already see CSI in existing intelligent programs such as a computer chess program. A chess program can anticipate a complex series of future moves and counter moves and act accordingly.
If we build robotic planetary probes capable of doing construction with planetary materials, this will be true. Because there is substantial delay in transmitting information between places like Earth and Mars, these robots will need to have autonomy similar to humans. It raises, at least in principle, the possibility, non-conscious entities making CSI. Why do I bring this up, you can expect enemies of ID to throwing stuff like this in our face in the future. I'm surprised they haven't said as much until now. But I'm putting it on the table before they say, "We told you so." With respect to chess, the computers don't store all possible moves, they make it up on the fly with heuristics. I do not know off hand whether the heuristics in play now cover all possible moves. In the opening of his NFL book, Dembski said intelligent agents can work through surrogates. Indeed this is true, but the problem is the surrogate act with such efficiency, for certain tasks they exceed the designer in making CSI! Chess programs are a good example.scordova
November 18, 2013
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Sal, I very much liked your many topics in the past (I sympathize with the YEC thinking) but I am going to be kind of critical of both the wording of your topic and some of your statements
Thank you for the kind words and also the criticism. It's a topic I think the ID community needs to discuss. I'm putting it on the table. I have my opinion, and I think others need to weigh in. Thanks for your thoughts. Salscordova
November 18, 2013
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Alan Fox @16:
Until someone can think of a working definition for intelligence that makes some sense, I can’t see how you can even start.
I think the AI community, especially people like Jeff Hawkins (he's an atheist/materialist but he's pretty knowledgeable about AI), have a pretty good handle on what intelligence is. Intelligence is primarily the ability to learn patterns and sequences of patterns and to predict the outcome of various sequences of patterns based on experience. Prediction is the key because it allows the intelligent agent the power to anticipate. Anticipation is the essential ingredient needed to create CSI. It is the sine qua non of motor learning and adaptation (appetitive and aversive behavior). Creating CSI will be a routine capability of our intelligent machines. In a way, we can already see CSI in existing intelligent programs such as a computer chess program. A chess program can anticipate a complex series of future moves and counter moves and act accordingly. One of the biggest problems with Darwinian evolution is its inability to anticipate the future. No animal or human could survive in their environment without this ability.Mapou
November 18, 2013
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Alan Fox: BTW, are you claiming that we cannot look into effects of intelligence, or consider whether intelligence is different from purely natural processes unless we can come up with a comprehensive, mutually-agreed-by-all definition of "intelligence?" I hope you aren't saying this. But if so, please do tell all those poor folks working in areas of psychology, counseling, artificial intelligence, criminal investigation, etc., all of whom regularly use the concept, and none of whom have a be-all-and-end-all definition. The general everyday dictionary definition is quite adequate for most purposes. The definitional game -- as important as clear definitions are -- is so often used just as an escape valve to avoid dealing with the real issues.Eric Anderson
November 18, 2013
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Alan Fox @16: Yes, we've looked at this antenna before. No-one doubts that trial-and-error approaches can be useful for looking at simple problems, particularly where the constraints and parameters -- as in this case -- were carefully input into the original conditions and the outputs were carefully selected in a steady march toward a very specific goal. The whole process could have been done by an engineer in a lab; computers are just helpful to speed up the process in this kind of simple case. Incidentally, the Wikipedia claim that the process mimics Darwinian evolution (which by definition has no constraints, parameters, goals or desired outcomes), is silly propaganda.Eric Anderson
November 18, 2013
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Incidentally, it seems to me on a quick read that part of your issue is that you define “intelligent” in reference to the ability to create CSI, which unfortunately ends up being somewhat circular.
Somewhat circular? :)Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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