Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should ID include AI as a form of Intelligence? I think so

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So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing).

Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems. The problem is that we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence in any formal way. With no disrespect intended toward those with severe mental handicaps, yes such people are conscious, but there is a point a robotic automaton might be capable of generating more Specified Improbability than such an individual. Thus the line between real and artificial, as far as what is produced, becomes blurred.

Some of us have imagined building robots that will land on a planet and tame it and build cities. They will act pretty much like human engineers and construction workers — doing research on the environment, gathering information, and building structures for human beings that will later colonize the planet. It is a dream, but it is, as of this juncture, possible in principle. Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred.

Why do I throw this out? Well:

1. I see RDFish and Mapou and others commenting, and maybe they want to chime in
2. From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability

What we can say is that given a system with an initial condition and certain boundary conditions, even assuming it is intelligent, it will probably not create certain kinds of Specified Improbability. For example, let us assume bacteria are examples of AI. We do not expect them to create multicellular creatures based on what we know about their capabilities. We can even assume the process of natural selection is AI (where Natural Selection is an AI genetic algorithm in the wild), given it’s level of intelligence, we do not expect it to build extravagant artifacts. I pointed out the reasons here:
How Darwinists confuse the extravagant with the essential.

We can say an adding machine is intelligent, but we do not think, in and of itself it will build a space shuttle.

If a certain AI system (like Natural Selection in the wild) is incapable of constructing certain artifacts, it suggests a greater intelligence was required to construct it. A greater intelligence than Natural Selection in the wild was needed to evolve flight from primitive bacteria, for example.

We rate the capability of various intelligence systems, and it is reasonable to affix limitations on them. This I think is a better way to frame the problem. Whether the Intelligence that made the wonders of life is God, A Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence…it is irrelevant to the design inference. We might however be able to make statements about the level of capability of that intelligence.

I will say this, it appears to me, the intelligence that makes a creature as awesome as a monarch butterfly seems far beyond the collective intelligence of humanity, and certainly far above the “intelligence” of natural selection in the wild. For some, they call this intelligence God, other leave it as an open question, but it seems clear to me it was an intelligence of great ability.

I know many of my ID colleagues will disagree or will remain skeptical of adopting such a convention. I put the idea on the table however, because I think it needs to be discussed.

Comments
I see fossil has made a similar point. Apologies to fossil for missing it on an over-brief scanning of comments.Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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Sal This antenna would appear to fit your requirement for "specified probability". In case you want to ask me again, BTW, the human designers and builders of the space shuttle could described as comparatively intelligent WRT the general population of the USA, as I suspect many of them would perform comparatively well on intelligence tests. All that really elucidates is how well a particular candidate performs at that intelligence test. Of course the elephant in the room is whether intelligence or cognitive ability can reside outside a human (or other sentient animal or being) brain or outside a computer modelled on a human (or less complex) brain, the construction of which I see no fundamental physical barrier which would prevent that achievement some day. Does intelligence exist independently? Can supernatural intelligence be inferred or extrapolated from the known examples of real sentient beings? Until someone can think of a working definition for intelligence that makes some sense, I can't see how you can even start.Alan Fox
November 18, 2013
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Sal, I very much liked your many topics in the past (I sympathize with the YEC thinking) but I am going to be kind of critical of both the wording of your topic and some of your statements. I don’t like the title you choose – but sure you were free to choose it. I suggest that maybe a proper question to ask might be: Q1. Can Intelligent Design be produced by Artificial Intelligence Agents? And before even bothering to answer question Q1 above we need to ask some preliminary questions: Q2. Do real Artificial Intelligence Agents exist? (or will they exists in the future at least?) Even if we assume that the answer to question Q2 above is “YES”, here is the next question: Q3. Can (presumptive) Artificial Intelligence Agents be created by anything else but by Real Intelligence Agents? I would say that the three questions above may indicate that the question posed by your title is somewhat superfluous or at least it may get a more precise and beneficial expression. Overall I think asking a question as that in the topic doesn’t help in any way the “search for truth and clarity” in the Intelligence Design realm. Not because this will create who knows what new difficulties for ID but just takes us on a tangent, into the fuzzy realm of defining intelligence, etc – as suggested by Eric Anderson at #1. Fundamentally materialists and evolutionists base their religious belief system on the following proposition (“credo”): Material nature (matter, energy, laws of physics and chemistry and happenstance) creates Artificial Intelligence Agents that, in turn, create (and expand) Nature.
Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems
I think we mix here different categories. I see in this list: # factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms = these are artifacts produced by intelligent agents (humans) and complex specified systems – but not necessary “intelligent systems" – i.e. they are NOT Intelligent Agents” # bacteria – this is an artifact produced by an unknown (for some) Intelligent Agent – and exhibit a very high level of complexity – and maybe can be classified as an “intelligent system” but not as an Intelligent Agent. Keeping my promise to be critical: I don’t like your term of “Specified Improbability”. I don’t think it helps ID understanding and it is not better then Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. As a software engineer with some exposure to artificial intelligence, I am rather skeptical of any real present or future Artificial Intelligence Agents. It seems to me that the business of Intelligent Agents is the exclusive domain of God. And we humans are real Intelligent Agents just because He chose to create us in His image. When I talk of a real Artificial Intelligent Agent I am not thinking of an expert chess player or an expert system in cardiac illness diagnostics, but rather a multi-lateral intelligent agent that can mimic the human intelligence.InVivoVeritas
November 18, 2013
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If all of you don’t mind having an old relatively uneducated brain dead old man put his two cents worth in I would like to suggest that sooner or later the ID community is going to have to define what they mean by intelligence. If we allow atheistic materialism to do it they will no doubt define the term so loosely that anything can be intelligent just like they are attempting to do with the definition of life. That being said, Mapou, I am a little uneasy with what you believe is intelligence. If intelligence is a matter of sensory perception working through some logic circuitry then the computer on my desk is intelligent. I then can ask does a creature such as a spider display intelligence when it builds a web. From what I know the spider is completely preprogrammed and can do the job the minute it is born. If a boulder rolls down a hill and is deflected when it hits an object is that intelligence? After all it could be considered a form of preprogramming like crystal growth. But I don’t think such things are true intelligence. The term AI (artificial intelligence) was coined when people in computer science began to mimic the human mind. The outcome of that were expert systems which only work in a very limited capacity. It is true that to the average person such a system has the appearance of intelligence but the rules are generally inflexible. Even when the program is able to alter itself there are usually set boundaries beyond which it cannot go unless one wishes to dabble in pure statistical probability. Compare that to the human mind that can appreciate unquantifiable data - that can create things without a precedent. How do you program that? Perhaps what I am saying is that to me real intelligence is not mechanical, it goes way beyond that. I have said in other venues that the difference between an ape and a man is that humans can look at a sunset and appreciate its beauty while the ape sees it and starts looking for a place to sleep the night. While it can be argued that the ape has intelligence, for the purposes of ID I prefer to define intelligence beyond the mechanistic thinking of apes. Any ape can hit the keys on a typewriter but it takes a human to make a meaningful sentence on it, to create specified information. That I believe is the boundary of real intelligence. Therefore if intelligence is merely mechanical operation then evolution has a point in saying that it has intelligence and chooses to evolve into higher forms and we would have basically lost before we begin.fossil
November 17, 2013
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Everyone can tell the difference between a living being, people, critters, and a machine or plant. One group has feeling and one doesn't. Now if feelings is not good enough then the better word is thoughts. M<achines have no thoughts but only act upon memory. Plants are mere memory operations. It all comes down to the anatomy of the soul. The gOd idea of living beings. So it might be too complicated for people to figure out its parts but machines doing actions from programs would be like saying a rock falling off a cliff is thinking all the way because its operating gravity and breakup principals at the bottom. Its about thoughtfulness as opposed to intelligence.Robert Byers
November 17, 2013
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Sal @6: Thanks. Some good food for thought that I'll have to think about for a while. Just a quick comment before retiring for the night: I don't view the regression complaint as particularly compelling. Regardless of whether we are seeing the effect of the original designer or a surrogate, it is pretty clear that an original was required. We don't have to think of anything as complicated as a cell. I can write a program to go grab a text file of War and Peace and reproduce it. We could then say -- through some hyper-technical definitions -- that my program "created" CSI and is therefore "intelligent," but that stretches the meaning of both the word "created" and the word "intelligent." Similarly, the CSI that is "created" by a cell, presumably already existed in the cell. Do we really want to go down the path of arguing that reproducing something is the same as creating it? Additionally, your approach seems to be require that we determine, as an initial matter, that natural processes, such as, say, natural selection, are not up to the task. Perhaps we cannot completely get away from that in practice -- after all, the explanatory filter defers to natural explanations, should they be up to the task. So perhaps the negative side of the ID argument is largely the same under your proposal.* But I'm wondering if your approach throws out the positive side of the ID argument? Namely, we know from routine experience that intelligent agents create CSI. Incidentally, it seems to me on a quick read that part of your issue is that you define "intelligent" in reference to the ability to create CSI, which unfortunately ends up being somewhat circular. Maybe you are right, but I've never felt it was necessary to define intelligence solely with respect to its ability to generate CSI. Maybe the other aspect of intelligence is the conscious/willful part of the discussion you are trying to avoid? I guess I'm not too bothered by that aspect, because in my experience the existence of conscious, will-driven, intelligent beings is so obvious that the only people who battle against it are those who are intent on avoiding rational debate. Anyway, I'll chew on it a bit more. Interesting stuff. ----- * BTW, I'm wondering if your approach adds another complication to the argument. Specifically, if we have to ask, in each case "can x turn into y over time," that would seem to put the onus back on proving that it can't happen in each individual situation. Worse, it might be the case that x can turn into y over time because it was pre-programmed or front loaded to do so. We might then come up with the wrong answer unless we are careful. Ultimately, I'm not sure how you get away from referencing the original source of the CSI, not just the proximate instantiation or reproducer of the CSI.Eric Anderson
November 17, 2013
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scordova @6:
The ID arguments are getting bogged down in discussion of consciousness when the real issue is the capacity of simple undirected processes to generate the extravagance in biology.
I don't think robots can create the extravagance we see in nature on their own. We observe amazing beauty in nature. Robots will not nor can they have a sense of beauty unless they are trained to recognize a limited number of beautiful things by a conscious intelligent being. Beauty is a spiritual phenomenon. It is not a property of matter.Mapou
November 17, 2013
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selvaRajan @9, I don't know for certain. I only know that particle interactions at the quantum level are probabilistic. I speculate that the spirit can sense and affect the probabilities and, in so doing, change the outcome of certain interactions.Mapou
November 17, 2013
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Hi Mapou @8,
From my research, I have come to believe that the spirit that inhabits the brain can interact with it via certain atomic configurations at the quantum level
Could you elaborate on that? What constitutes the Spirits? How would the constitution of Spirit interact with Quarks?selvaRajan
November 17, 2013
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Eric Anderson:
You have some interesting thoughts. One question: Can intelligence arise due to a particular arrangement of matter? (Either by careful planning and design, or by evolutionary trial-and-error?)
Intelligence must be either designed or created. There is absolutely no way it can happen by chance. One may ask, who designed or created God? To that I would reply that God created his own brain and body. I believe that certain entities in the spiritual realm can create matter, including their own intelligence. Who created spirits? Nobody. They just are. The spiritual realm can neither be created nor destroyed. Only in the physical realm can things be created or destroyed. That's my take on it.
The reason I ask is that the essence of the evolutionary story is that particles bumped into each other for a long time and eventually, from that chaotic nonsense, emerged sense; from the unintelligible, intelligence; from meaninglessness, meaning; from unconsciousness, consciousness. I’m wondering whether all of this can in fact arise through a particular arrangement of matter, or whether at least some of it lies beyond matter itself.
I don't believe for an instant that consciousness arises from matter. That's absurd. It takes two things to have consciousness, a knower and a known. The two are opposite and complementary by definition. That is to say, the knower cannot be known and the known cannot know. The known is physical and the knower is spiritual. Not even God can know a spirit directly. This is why the scriptures teach us that spirits must tested because they are known only by their actions, i.e., indirectly. The idea put out by the likes of Douglas Hofstadter and many others in the materialist camp according to which consciousness arises from some kind of strange recursive loop is ridiculous to the extreme. Those guys know not what they're talking about.
You seem to be distinguishing between consciousness, for example, and intelligence. I guess if we defined intelligence as broadly as “being able to select from a range of possibilities,” then lots of things might qualify as intelligent. I tend to view intelligence in a more narrow light, including the ability to choose whether or not to follow the built in decision tree, the ability to deviate from pre-programed solutions, the ability to deal with new, novel situations, the ability to know that a decision is being made (though perhaps this last one slips close to the idea of consciousness). In any event, if we take the view that intelligence and/or consciousness can arise through a particular arrangement of matter, then — at least in that limited sense — our “explanation” for intelligence/consciousness would not be different from that of the materialist evolutionist. We might dispute whether natural processes can indeed create such an arrangement of matter, but on the question of whether matter can give rise to meaning, intelligence, consciousness, etc., the viewpoint would be the same.
The materialists don't have a clue. They are lost in the wilderness. True AI will never come from the materialist camp because they have willingly blinded themselves. In my opinion, only the spirit that inhabits the brain can choose to deviate from its pre-programmed motivation. It is the spirit that chooses and sets likes and dislikes. The spirit can, for example, choose to focus on music and the arts. The brain is not pre-programmed for liking art and beauty. Robots will never develop an affinity for the arts other than what they are conditioned (trained) by us to focus on. And they will do it only to get a reward from us. The appreciation of beauty is not a material thing. It's a spiritual thing. The oft repeated notion that intelligent machines will rebel against humans and take over the world is a materialist's stupid wet dream. They understand absolutely nothing about motivation or where it comes from. Humans will design intelligent machines to harm other humans and/or other machines. The enemy is not the machines. It is us. We are the evil ones. The machines will always be an obedient tool that can be used for either good or evil, regardless of how intelligent they are. It's scary though. Those who don't have intelligent robots will be at the mercy of those who do. From my research, I have come to believe that the spirit that inhabits the brain can interact with it via certain atomic configurations at the quantum level. But this is true only in certain parts of the brain. The cerebellum, for instance, a huge sub-area of the brain that handles routine tasks such as posture, walking and balance, is never conscious. It is a complete automaton.Mapou
November 17, 2013
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I was simply offering alternative means of arguing for design, and trying to find a line of argument that is less vulnerable to some of the pitfalls of invoking conscious intelligence or the pitfall
What you would be doing is parceling the complexities of process into another complexity (ET). You can sit back and argue that my job is done. Let some one explain origin of ET. Darwinists have parceled off the origin of life to abiogenesis but the point remains - we still have to account for inanimate origin of life.selvaRajan
November 17, 2013
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I’m not completely sure where you are heading with your comments
Cells make other cells, a cell contains CSI, therefore a cell makes CSI, therefore a cell is "intelligent" by ID definitions. There maybe regress issues in play, but we can't deny if a cell contains CSI, and if its parent cell created it, it is hard to say the parent cell doesn't possess intelligence proximally at some level. Do we always have to invoke regress arguments to some ultimate cause? We can if we wish, but we don't have to in order to pose other interesting questions like: "can this single-celled creature evolve into a bird?" If not, then we don't even need to invoke regress arguments, we know a greater intelligence than natural selection in the wild was necessary. We bypass the need to go to regress arguments (like the cell had to be designed). Instead we could argue directly, the bird had to be designed by something other than Natural Selection. The ID arguments are getting bogged down in discussion of consciousness when the real issue is the capacity of simple undirected processes to generate the extravagance in biology. I think genetic algorithms can generate Specified Improbability (or CSI), and again we get bogged down in discussion of whether it is possible or not. Dogs are presumably intelligent creatures. I don't expect them to have the ability to build space probes. Hence by supposing for the sake of argument a system is "intelligent" we can ask "is it intelligent enough, and does it have the means to use its intelligence?" Even granting a genetic algorithm or natural selection in the wild has some level of intelligence, as we see it in operation today, it will not evolve monarch butterflies from bacteria. Plenty of lab evidence to the contrary. Bacteria can be said to have some level of mechanical intelligence, for that matter every cell. They do make specified complexity, but not the sort that will create the extravagance in biology. NS works in the wild, but it doesn't have the sort of fitness functions that will enable it to evolve extravagance. Even supposing NS is a primitive mechanical intelligence, it is not intelligent enough. I was simply offering alternative means of arguing for design, and trying to find a line of argument that is less vulnerable to some of the pitfalls of invoking conscious intelligence or the pitfall of ignoring the Specified Complexity (Improbability) that is generated by supposedly non-sentient systems (like cells). CSI can be generated by non-sentient entities. We get into complications when we insist otherwise. In Dembski's book, No Free Lunch, he refers to these non-sentient entities as "surrogates" (in the opening of the book). Dembski makes the case these surrogates can't spontaneously emerge. I agree with that, but we don't always have to appeal to that claim.scordova
November 17, 2013
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Great idea Sal, YECs can claim God created everything so no need to explain complexities, IDist can claim ET created everything and 'We live in a Sim' guys too can claim the same. All evolutionary scientists, physicists, cosmologists who have those views can pack up and go home with pink slip in their hand, and join SETI in the search for ET. Any kind of progress will be left to Darwinists.selvaRajan
November 17, 2013
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Mapou: You have some interesting thoughts. One question: Can intelligence arise due to a particular arrangement of matter? (Either by careful planning and design, or by evolutionary trial-and-error?) The reason I ask is that the essence of the evolutionary story is that particles bumped into each other for a long time and eventually, from that chaotic nonsense, emerged sense; from the unintelligible, intelligence; from meaninglessness, meaning; from unconsciousness, consciousness. I'm wondering whether all of this can in fact arise through a particular arrangement of matter, or whether at least some of it lies beyond matter itself. You seem to be distinguishing between consciousness, for example, and intelligence. I guess if we defined intelligence as broadly as "being able to select from a range of possibilities," then lots of things might qualify as intelligent. I tend to view intelligence in a more narrow light, including the ability to choose whether or not to follow the built in decision tree, the ability to deviate from pre-programed solutions, the ability to deal with new, novel situations, the ability to know that a decision is being made (though perhaps this last one slips close to the idea of consciousness). In any event, if we take the view that intelligence and/or consciousness can arise through a particular arrangement of matter, then -- at least in that limited sense -- our "explanation" for intelligence/consciousness would not be different from that of the materialist evolutionist. We might dispute whether natural processes can indeed create such an arrangement of matter, but on the question of whether matter can give rise to meaning, intelligence, consciousness, etc., the viewpoint would be the same.Eric Anderson
November 17, 2013
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scordova:
I will say this, it appears to me, the intelligence that makes a creature as awesome as a monarch butterfly seems far beyond the collective intelligence of humanity, and certainly far above the “intelligence” of natural selection in the wild.
There is no reason, in principle, that our collective intelligence, i.e., our knowledge, understanding and tools (including our future intelligent machines) cannot advance in say, a few 1000 years or even less, to the point of being able to design and engineer something as awesome as a monarch butterfly. We, too, are gods. As a Christian (an unorthodox one, I admit), I don't believe God is just one individual but a collection of many beings or, if you wish, a united civilization consisting of many intelligent specialists (or elohim as Genesis calls them). I can see evidence for this in the vastly different life forms and design styles that are observable on earth. Humanity, too, has a collective intelligence. No single human being could have designed the computer, the internet, the modern automobile, radio or television. Many individuals have contributed over the years. Likewise, in the future, we will have huge numbers of robot specialists that, together, form a sort of collective intelligence.Mapou
November 17, 2013
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scordova, I believe that, in the not too distant future, there will be no fundamental difference between natural intelligence and artificial intelligence other than that the former is composed of living tissue and the latter is not. Intelligence is primarily the ability to learn from sensory experience and to make predictions (anticipate). From this ability, a machine will develop motor skills and use them to achieve short and long term goals based on that ability. The main difference between human and future intelligent robots is this: The former is self-motivating (i.e., humans set their own likes and dislikes) whereas robots must be pre-programed with a set of motivations. But there will be no difference in the way they go about seeking "rewards" and avoiding "punishment". In fact, given that intelligent robots will be less distracted overall than humans, they will be much more effective at achieving their goals. Given the above, there is no reason to think that we could not send a legion of intelligent robots to terraform other planets and prepare them for human habitation. I predict that, within the next 20 years or so, human labor will become obsolete and humanity will have to drastically change its economic systems. It will be neither capitalism nor socialism because both are based on human labor. Question: Will intelligent robots be conscious? Answer: Absolutely not. The problem I see is that many will swear that intelligent robots are conscious and will insist that they be given legal rights similar to humans. I cringe at the thought.Mapou
November 17, 2013
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Sal: You have a number of interesting thoughts. Taking a couple in turn:
. . . the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing.
Nah, the terms are pretty clear, except to critics who are intent on misunderstanding them. :)
Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred. . . . From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability.
I think there is an important point lurking here. One of the frequent and vocal complaints against ID is the fact that no comprehensive definition of "intelligence" exists. Such a complaint is true, but largely meaningless. No-one has a comprehensive be-all-and-end-all definition of "intelligence" -- not neurology, not psychology, not AI, no-one. Yet that does not prevent those disciplines from being "science," nor does it prevent them from doing good work. I am personally skeptical that a final, definitive definition of "intelligence" is even possible. And it would behoove ID proponents to not get bogged down in definitional skirmishes when the broader claims and key points of ID can be made perfectly well by using the word in the everyday ordinary context of a basic college dictionary, particularly in light of its Latin etymology: "to choose between." So, Sal, I'm not completely sure where you are heading with your comments, but I do agree that we ought not get bogged down in whether a particular intelligence is 'artificial' or 'real' for purposes of most discussions. ----- To be sure, there is value in distinguishing between an expression of intelligence and the source of that intelligence. In the case of your adding machines -- arguably even in the case of your terraforming robots -- any "intelligence" they exhibit is pre-programmed into their systems by the "real" intelligent agent, the programmer. That, of course, is not what AI proponents have in mind with the goal of creating a truly artificial intelligence. Personally I think the jury is still out on whether it is possible to create what we would recognize as true intelligence by putting molecules into a certain configuration. At the very least, the past several decades have demonstrated that the difficulty of the endeavor has been vastly underappreciated. ----- P.S. I'm also not a fan of attributing intelligence to things like the Internet or groups of individuals. Those are merely interactive expressions of numerous individual intelligences and we abuse words and confuse discussions by referring to such things as "intelligent."Eric Anderson
November 17, 2013
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