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Snowflake Barbarians

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Why did liberal democracy arise in the West and nowhere else?  Because of the influence of Christianity on Western politics.  Consider the most famous expression of classical liberalism the world has ever known, the Declaration of Independence:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . .”

Compare that passage to Galatians 3:28:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Paul’s message in Galatians was not political.  He was making a theological statement about the equality of Christians in the body of Christ.  Nevertheless, the implications of his argument for a predominantly Christian polity are nothing short of radical.  It took a long time for these implications to sink in, but eventually it dawned on Christian thinkers that certain political institutions that had been taken for granted for all of human history were fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.  Institutions such as slavery.  If my slave is my brother in Christ, how can I continue to hold him in slavery?  There isn’t a good answer to that question, and that is why abolitionism as a political movement arose in Christian Europe, and it is also why for the most part the abolitionists – from Wilberforce in England to Harriet Elisabeth Beecher Stowe in the United States – were Christians making Christian arguments to Christian political communities receptive to such arguments.

As the Declaration expressly states, the Christian idea of equality of all men before God is the foundation of the political idea of the equality of all men under the law.  Don’t take my word for it.  Atheist professor Yuval Noah Harari agrees.  In his international bestseller Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Harari wrote:  “The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation.  The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God.”

This passage comes from a longer passage in which Harari argues that the ideas expressed in the Declaration are so much imaginary drivel.  He writes:

Both the Code of Hammurabi and the American Declaration of Independence claim to outline universal and eternal principles of justice, but according to the Americans all people are equal, whereas according to the Babylonians people are decidedly unequal. The Americans would, of course, say that they are right, and that Hammurabi is wrong. Hammurabi, naturally, would retort that he is right, and that the Americans are wrong.  In fact, they are both wrong.  Hammurabi and the American Founding Fathers alike imagined a reality governed by universal and immutable principles of justice, such as equality or hierarchy.  Yet the only place where such universal principles exist is in the fertile imagination of Sapiens, and in the myths they invent and tell one another. These principles have no objective validity.

It is easy for us to accept that the division of people into ‘superiors’ and ‘commoners’ is a figment of the imagination. Yet the idea that all humans are equal is also a myth.  In what sense do all humans equal one another?  Is there any objective reality, outside the human imagination, in which we are truly equal? . . . According to the science of biology, people were not ‘created’. They have evolved. And they certainly did not evolve to be ‘equal’.  The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation.  The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God.  However, if we do not believe in the Christian myths about God, creation and souls, what does it mean that all people are ‘equal’?  Evolution is based on difference, not on equality. Every person carries a somewhat different genetic code, and is exposed from birth to different environmental influences.  This leads to the development of different qualities that carry with them different chances of survival.  ‘Created equal’ should therefore be translated into ‘evolved differently’.

Just as people were never created, neither, according to the science of biology, is there a ‘Creator’ who ‘endows’ them with anything. There is only a blind evolutionary process, devoid of any purpose, leading to the birth of individuals. ‘Endowed by their creator’ should be translated simply into ‘born’.

Equally, there are no such things as rights in biology. There are only organs, abilities and characteristics.  Birds do not fly because they have a right to fly, but because they have wings. And it’s not true that these organs, abilities and characteristics are ‘unalienable’.  Many of them undergo constant mutations, and may well be completely lost over time.  The ostrich is a bird that lost its ability to fly. So ‘unalienable rights’ should be translated into ‘mutable characteristics’.

And what are the characteristics that evolved in humans? ‘Life’, certainly. But ‘liberty’? There is no such thing in biology. Just like equality, rights and limited liability companies, liberty is something that people invented and that exists only in their imagination. From a biological viewpoint, it is meaningless to say that humans in democratic societies are free, whereas humans in dictatorships are unfree.

Harari’s analysis is remarkably clear-eyed for a materialist atheist.  He admits that under materialism, human dignity does not exist; universal principles of justice and equality do not exist; human rights do not exist; liberty does not exist.  All of these things are social constructs resulting from entirely contingent physical processes.

For a couple of centuries, we in the West have enjoyed a polity based on an attempt to infuse Christian doctrines into our political practice.  While the result has been far from perfect, compared to the great mass of men over the long stretch of history, that effort has produced a civilization that has been, by far, the freest, most prosperous, and most democratic the world has ever known.  Is that civilization sustainable when its Christian foundations are crumbling under a relentless onslaught of metaphysical materialism?

That question brings me to the title of this post.  In recent months, the news has been full of stories about the “Snowflake” phenomenon on college campuses.  We have read story after story about illiberal college students cracking down on anyone attempting to express any view contrary to progressive dogma.  It is not hard to connect the dots here.  The Snowflake movement is an offshoot of political correctness, which is in turn the handmaiden of progressivism, which is fascistic at its root.

Properly understood, the Christian worldview, infused as it is with notions of the fallibility of man, supports an epistemological humility upon which true tolerance and pluralism can rest.  Metaphysical materialism, not so much.  Materialism denies any transcendent morality and the objective existence of justice.  Might makes right.  Is it any wonder that fully 70% of college students support restrictions on the right to free expression?

Lincoln wrote that the principles of the Declaration are “the definitions and axioms of free society” and that the abstract truths in that document would “in all coming days . . . be a rebuke and a stumbling block to the very harbingers of reappearing tyranny and oppression.”

Maybe.  The Declaration is built on a Christian foundation.  But what will happen if that foundation is destroyed when its essential truth claims are denied?  We are about to find out.  Darwin’s great triumph was not so much scientific as it was metaphysical.  The publication of Origin of Species marked the beginning of materialism’s long march though our institutions, especially our universities.  And we have an inkling of what it will look like when that march is finished and materialism reigns triumphant.  It looks like this:

 

melissa_click_c0-17-640-390_s885x516

“I need some muscle over here.”

 

Below I answer some responses that I anticipate.

  1. Liberalism is entirely consistent with materialist metaphysics. We know this because many liberals are materialists.

The term “liberalism” can be confusing.  When I use the term in the post, I mean “classical liberalism,” the political ideology that emphasizes private property, economic liberty, the rule of law, and constitutional guaranties of fundamental rights, such as freedom of religion.  Ironically, in the United States at least, classical liberalism is known as “conservatism.”  Classical liberalism is not to be confused with modern liberalism, which is also known as progressivism, which is a variant of fascism.  Classical liberalism is in fact the exact opposite of modern liberalism.

  1. Everyone knows the Founders were all Deists, not Christians.

No, they were not.  In fact, very few of them were.  Yes, Thomas Jefferson was not an orthodox Christian, and Benjamin Franklin was a deist, but those religious positions were by no means representative of the founders.  The signers of the Declaration itself were, for example, overwhelmingly orthodox Christians (52 of 56).  Jefferson knew he was writing a document that, if it were to accomplish anything, required the assent of an overwhelmingly orthodox Christian audience (both the men who would sign it and the population that would be called to rally around it).  He responded by writing a document that was consciously intended to appeal to that audience.

  1. Slave owners used Biblical arguments.

Yes, they did.  And they were wrong.

  1. Metaphysical materialism did not begin with Darwin.

Of course it didn’t.  Democritus (ca. 400 BC) was probably the first systematic materialists, and the Epicureans based a large part of their philosophy on his ideas.  I did not say that materialism began with Darwin.  I said that the triumph of materialism in formerly Christian western institutions began with Darwin.  On this point, Richard Dawkins is correct.  Atheism predated Darwin, but Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.  As an aside, Dawkins’ s statement was true for Darwin’s fellow Victorians and perhaps for a couple of generations afterward.  In an age where atheist true believers are increasingly required to grit their teeth in the face of the overwhelming evidence of design (particularly at the cellular and molecular level), this is no longer true.  But the damage has been done.  History will show that Darwinism was a bridge between evidence based epistemology and post-modern epistemology.  In other words, by the time it was revealed that the evidence no longer supported Darwin, evidence no longer mattered.

  1. Christians are bad, as the Wars of Religion proved

This argument is based on a flawed conception of Christian doctrine.  Christianity does not teach that Christians are good and non-Christians are bad.  Christianity teachers that everyone is bad and that is why everyone stands in need of Christ’s grace for salvation.  Christianity also teaches that the Holy Spirit works in Christ’s followers to sanctify them and lead them to good works.  From a Christian perspective, it is entirely unsurprising that evil men will start unjust wars using religion as a pretext.  It is also entirely unsurprising that atheists such as Stalin and Mao will kill tens of millions in a quixotic quest for earthly atheist political utopia.  For the Christian, history is one long blood-soaked lesson in the truth of doctrine of the depravity of man, whether that depravity is cloaked in perverted religion or materialist madness.

  1. “Materialism” is not a thing (or no one has believed in Materialism since the 1800s).

Here I use the term as a shorthand for a metaphysical monism that denies the existence of God.  If you prefer physicalism, naturalism, priority monism, etc., OK.

Comments
‘Q', those are serious accusations. You say that I can't see the value of a culture that holds, "deferance to elders and community cooperation", as values higher than the ones I described; freedom of speech, democracy etc. My name is Robert Leonard van Bakel, my parents were Dutch and moved to New Zealand in 1962. My inherited culture of northern Europe holds respect for elders, and community cooperation in high regard. Indeed if you look at this part of the world today you can see this inheritance in their strong socialised protection systems of the very weakest in those societies. This is real support, not the Islamic, Buddist, fake Russian communist support, but genuine future building hope for the oppressed. When I look at African, Russian, Indian, Middle Eastern, and Far Eastern culture I see none of this concern you so adamently (with no evidence but emotion) defend. This is not cultural condescension, this is fact. For example, with all of the oil wealth that Russia, Nigerai, the Middle East, has had for decades, where is the community concern for even one of their ctizens? Norway discovered oil in the 1950s and unlike Britain, made the operation state owned and operated, it now is one of the most, if not the most solvent nations on earth; Norway said we don't want BP, Exonn, Shell etc, we will have Norway Statoil; very 'community' minded don't you think? 'Q' I care about people, not tiny gods, or supposed profundity; real results.rvb8
January 19, 2017
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Barry began the OP by saying, “Why did liberal democracy arise in the West and nowhere else? Because of the influence of Christianity on Western politics.” There was a good example of that influence on the National Mall in the Washington D.C. this evening (1/19/17) as part of the festivities for inauguration of the next U.S. President. At the end of a concert at the Lincoln Memorial members of a U.S. Military chorale group, along with a spectacular fireworks display over the Potomac River, sang the Battle Hymn of the Republic. They included the verse: In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea, With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me. As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, While God is marching on. It is a fact of history, the democratic republic of the United States has deep Christian roots. While other democratic forms of government have come and gone, freedom and democracy in the U.S. has endured 240 years. John Adams, the second U.S. President said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Is that why American has survived so long? I believe it is. Adams, also cautioned us: “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”john_a_designer
January 19, 2017
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Seversky quoted:
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Notice that this clearly indicates that before the fall, male domination was not in God's plan and is a bad thing, a curse. rvb8 doubles down with
Modern white European values:) Heh! Next step, rvb8 is a NAZI; I’m not. Let me see, ‘modern white European values’; freedom of speech, I hope non-whites and other races can accept this. Democratically, and openly, choosing our own leaders . . .
Actually, the fact that you cannot even conceive of a non-competitive, polite society, and have expressed your desire that alien values be imposed on non-western societies, is strong evidence that you indeed harbor callous and coercive attitudes toward non-western people groups. As a result, I can't say that it would be unfair for more educated people to consider you a cultural Nazi. You might want to reflect on growing up in a culture where deference to elders and community cooperation is held in higher esteem than what would appear to them as reckless slander. I noticed that you never answered the question of what gives you the *** RIGHT *** to pronounce judgment on another culture just because it doesn’t conform to your modern white European values? . . . and why you would let people starve to death by not providing them with a nutritious source of animal protein. -QQuerius
January 19, 2017
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Axel @ 33 Thank you for providing yet another data point supporting what I said about Ayn Rand; as with everyone else who has dismissed her, you offer scorn instead of an argument.EvilSnack
January 19, 2017
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PPS: How the scriptures balance equality and service:
Philippians 2: 1 . . . if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Anyone who would translate humble service -- even, obedient to death -- with ontological inferiority of being plunges at once into utterly destructive heresy.kairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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PS: Ep Philemon: ___________ >>Philemon 1 Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved fellow worker 2 and Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier, and the church in your house: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Philemon's Love and Faith 4 I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers, 5 because I hear of your love and of the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints, 6 and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ.[a] 7 For I have derived much joy and comfort from your love, my brother, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you. Paul's Plea for Onesimus 8 Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, 9 yet for love's sake I prefer to appeal to you—I, Paul, an old man and now a prisoner also for Christ Jesus— 10 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus,[b] whose father I became in my imprisonment. 11 (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) 12 I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. 13 I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. 15 For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, 16 no longer as a bondservant[c] but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me. 18 If he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, charge that to my account. 19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say. 22 At the same time, prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping that through your prayers I will be graciously given to you. Final Greetings 23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends greetings to you, 24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. 25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. [ESV] Footnotes: Philemon 1:6 Or for Christ's service Philemon 1:10 Onesimus means useful (see verse 11) or beneficial (see verse 20) Philemon 1:16 For the contextual rendering of the Greek word doulos, see Preface; twice in this verse >> ____________kairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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Seversky, it seems you are desperate to drag the thread off focus. I suggest to you that from within the Bible onwards, Adam does not escape primary and joint responsibility for a very bad decision with sobering consequences. In that context, it is further quite plain that the said scriptures explicitly, repeatedly teach our fundamental equality, across sex, class, colour and racial divides: equally in God's image, equally fallen and struggling, equally loved by God, equally redeemed in Christ. Indeed, it is no accident that the antislave society's main and secondary mottos come straight from Philemon, the short epistle in which Paul, a Roman soldier chained to him and under threat of a death sentence for harbouring a runaway, laid out the principles that in time -- so soon as print, freely available Bibles and increasing literacy in that context enabled civil rights oriented reforms -- would be the engine of abolition. Namely, am I not a man and a brother, and am I not a woman and a sister. And yes, they didn't teach that lesson in history class here either, I had to put two and two together to see how they made four, with help of the medallions and ceramic tokens created in that first civil rights movement. Interesting, nuh, to see how they had to picture the medallions and tokens, but would not acknowledge their direct historical and literary, documentary source. Telling. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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Seversky
What were you saying about equality?
I was saying that under Christianity the status of women increased to a degree never before witnessed in the history of the world. I won't parse scripture with someone who has no conception of sound a hermeneutic, far less the ability to apply one. I will simply note that you have failed to rebut the basic premise of the post (which even thoughtful arch-atheists concede) -- that the notion of equality of men (a word which includes women) is based on Christian doctrine. Do you have anything useful to say or will you simply continue to rip verses out of their temporal, cultural, historical and textual context? If the latter, knock yourself out. But don't expect me to correct you for the same reason I would never try to teach a pig to sing -- it does no good and it annoys the pig.Barry Arrington
January 19, 2017
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Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Not only is the woman, Eve, portrayed as mostly to blame for both of them giving in to temptation, she and her descendants in perpetuity are punished with painful births and are to be subject to the man. That is both clearly misogynistic and an outrageous affront to basic principles of justice.
Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Lot refuses to hand over to the men of Sodom his two guests (angels) and offers them instead his two daughters to do with as they choose. This is utterly appalling in what it says about Christianity's attitude to women.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Witches were always seen as women and how many died at the hands of devout Christians in the notorious witch-hunts?
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
The woman's fault again.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
What were you saying about equality?Seversky
January 19, 2017
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I used to bring high-risk teenagers to adult prisons as part of a youth counseling and intervention program. I remember the guards being glad whenever one of the inmates converted to Christianity because such inmates were much less likely to break rules or engage in violence. Christianity provided the hope, forgiveness and salvation those inmates were looking for. I would say that is a good thing.Truth Will Set You Free
January 19, 2017
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SA, Yup, and the very same folks know that there's nothing like an epic movie to move the ball forward on creating widespread cultural awareness and discussion. So, this is one point where silence speaks loudly -- and after all this picks up from where Thermopylae left off, with the movie 300 (and others before that). I can see in my mind's eye a fast forward from that point, through the time when the Greeks began to fall out among themselves as Athens converted the Delian league into Empire. The run down to war then the story, maybe with Plato's Athenian Stranger standing in for Socrates and Plato and Thucydides, and so forth. Or, whatever. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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KF - in the U.S. we dropped classical culture in our school curriculum so very many people are unfamiliar with that foundational literature. That's part of the problem - an indicator of the demise you're talking about in itself.Silver Asiatic
January 19, 2017
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SA, the biggie tell-tale is the absence of an epic about Alcibiades and the linked collapse of Athenian democracy. All the themes for a great tragedy are there, and all the issues: money, looks, charm [that tempted and seduced women and men alike], ambition, battle, leadership, in-fighting, a trial, betrayal, cuckolding the king of Sparta who took him in, fleeing onward to the Persians -- h'mm echoes of our own day! -- temporary reconciliations with the Athenians, final exile, mysterious death at whose hands no one is sure of. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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Evilsnack @28 Ayn Rand, a philosopher of note ? ROFL !!! Well, fair go... I'm obviously bigoted. It must take an awesome intellect to elaborate a sophisticated philosophy from the Law of the Jungle. Wow ! How about, 'Inayn' Rand ? No wonder an American author, or was it a journalist, described it to his friend as below the fare produced by Mickey Spillane, advising him to throw it stright in the trash-can. Only in the US could such patently jejune, Mammon-inspired piffle have been taken half, nay, a quarter, seriouslyAxel
January 19, 2017
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From the ENV article cited by BA77
this complication does not appear to have occurred to Harris
He'll continue to write idiotic books and simply ignore the issue each time.Silver Asiatic
January 19, 2017
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ES
progressives did not come to their view of human rights as a result of embracing secular materialism, but embraced secular humanism because it provides a basis for the concept of human rights that they wish to see established.
As with, Kermit Gosnell, serial killer.
The true story of America’s foremost abortionist is so toxic to Hollywood that no major film distributor will go near it, claims a producer of the upcoming film about the life of convicted murderer Dr. Kermit Gosnell.
KF
To do so, we have distorted law, medicine, media, education, politics and more, utterly warping and benumbing conscience.
We can see the nihilistic impact of atheistic-materialism - as you point out, a benumbing of the conscience. Along with that is a tremendous sense of guilt, and all the efforts required to silence that are easily apparent. Progressives cannot handle the truth about their own policies and moral decisions. The bold, taboo-breaking, fearless artists of Hollywood are too afraid of the story of a serial-killer (blacklisting Gosnell movie as mentioned) to even talk about it.Silver Asiatic
January 19, 2017
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ES, yup, light for darkness and good for evil, all riding on reduction to radical relativism while denying the only serious candidate to ground moral principles and values. AKA, might and manipulation make that convenient illusory lever of domination, 'right.' The absurdities and horrors are increasingly evident. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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SA: Let me promote it above a PS:
In the past 40+ years, we have been responsible for the WORST holocaust in history, that of our own posterity, to the tune of 800+ million unborn children, rising at a million more per WEEK. To do so, we have distorted law, medicine, media, education, politics and more, utterly warping and benumbing conscience. This single easily shown fact instantly implies that we are the worst, most blood-guilty, conscience-benumbed generation in history and no moral preening or presumption to superior wisdom on our unaided — darkness for light, good for evil, truth-disregarding — part is to be taken seriously.
KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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The only philosopher of note to come close to building a coherent system of human rights on an atheist basis was Ayn Rand; but since she came to political conclusions that are the exact opposite of what progressives hold dear, she has received nothing but scorn. It's looking more and more obvious that the progressives did not come to their view of human rights as a result of embracing secular materialism, but embraced secular humanism because it provides a basis for the concept of human rights that they wish to see established. If the God of the Bible is real, then abortion for birth control is horrible savagery; but progressives hold that birth control is great and wonderful, therefore the God of the Bible cannot be real.EvilSnack
January 19, 2017
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rvb8
The gay communities of Africa, Russia, India, China, and the Middle East are constantly harassed.
Many people feel continually harassed by promoters of atheistic-secularism (Enlightenment thinking).Silver Asiatic
January 19, 2017
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KF @ 23 - your PS is a very good point, too often ignored and under-reported.Silver Asiatic
January 19, 2017
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rvb8:
we have just proved a well known fact, that the Bible . . . can be used by any side to say both yeh and neh!
No, you have proved a different well known fact: People like you can twist, distort and wrench out of context to make a point. It is a well-known fact of history that women in the Roman Empire flocked to Christianity in droves. Why would they do that if it were so misogynistic? It was not. The plain fact is that women achieved a status in the Christian church that was literally unprecedented in the history of the world. Here are some answers to frequently raised questions about this topic. Again, rvb8, you should make an effort to acquaint yourself with the basic facts before you comment on a subject. Spewing leftist talking points may seem like sound argumentation to you, but sadly it is not. Barry Arrington
January 19, 2017
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as to rvb8 revisionist history where enlightenment 'reasoning' guided man to a better morality, here is a recent article on that particular false spin of the left as it is related to the founding of America.
In His Farewell Address, President Obama Misrepresented the American Founding - January 11, 2017 Excerpt: "One thing he said about the American founding was especially troubling. Mr. Obama traced “the essential spirit of innovation and practical problem-solving that guided our Founders” to the Enlightenment. It was that movement, which he defined as “a faith in reason, and enterprise, and the primacy of right over might, that allowed us to resist the lure of fascism and tyranny during the Great Depression” and build a world order based on “the rule of law, human rights, freedoms of religion, speech, assembly, and an independent press.” This spin is common in the leftist canon, but it is historical revisionism of the highest rank.,,, The wisdom of the Bible and the clarity of natural law gave the founding generation the guidance they needed to frame a government suitable for an imperfectible but dignified humanity characterized by moral self-restraint and “a firm reliance on Divine Providence.” The shout of defiance in the President’s farewell address, that man can be made perfect through human cooperation with the “arc of history,” runs counter to the philosophy of the founding of our country and the text of the Constitution." https://stream.org/in-his-farewell-address-president-obama/
And since rvb8 believes that man's 'reasoning' can lead us to a better morality, might it be too much trouble to ask rvb8 to tell us how he, as a Darwinian atheist, grounds reasoning?
“One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.” —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason) The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain (determinism). (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
bornagain77
January 19, 2017
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Folks, See the force of what Plato warned against (and now with multiple attempts to distract from):
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
KF PS: In the past 40+ years, we have been responsible for the WORST holocaust in history, that of our own posterity, to the tune of 800+ million unborn children, rising at a million more per WEEK. To do so, we have distorted law, medicine, media, education, politics and more, utterly warping and benumbing conscience. This single easily shown fact instantly implies that we are the worst, most blood-guilty, conscience-benumbed generation in history and no moral preening or presumption to superior wisdom on our unaided -- darkness for light, good for evil, truth-disregarding -- part is to be taken seriously.kairosfocus
January 19, 2017
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Modern white European values:) Heh! Next step, rvb8 is a NAZI; I'm not. Let me see, 'modern white European values'; freedom of speech, I hope non-whites and other races can accept this. Democratically, and openly, choosing our own leaders, as Churchill said; "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other ones." The right to have a God, or not; some Muslim, Hindu, and Budhist traditions could pay more attention to this. The right to disagree with anyone, about anything, in sound and logical argument; Putin, and Erdogan have recently removed this right. The rights of women, which moved from an unforgvable position in Europe, to a slightly better one today. If this is a 'modern white European value', I think women everywhere would benefit from it. The right to express your sexuality without the threat of hatred, or even violence and death. (The homosexual friends I made in university, are still great people I call friends.) The gay communities of Africa, Russia, India, China, and the Middle East are constantly harassed. The right of labour to bargain collectively. And recently in the US (but working in NZ since 1896), the right to publicly funded, quality health care. I could go on listing every hard fought for Enlightenment value won over the past 300 years, but I think you know them all.rvb8
January 19, 2017
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Dear rvb8 - After many requests from you for a definition of morality ,which were greeted by a deafening silence I fear I will get the same silence again but here goes .Can you please give a definition of equality, seeing that you believe Pauls teaching were so unequal, please define equality.Marfin
January 19, 2017
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Barry: Might makes right This is always true, no matter what the religion/philosophy. Surely you can see this. After all, we're just squirrels looking for some nuts. (And you're included.)mike1962
January 19, 2017
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These are not even the most mysogynistic, wait till we delve deeper into Pentateuch.
Not at all. These were Paul's behavioral standards for a congregation in a first century Greek town now located in modern-day Turkey. In the Greek, it seems to indicate that wives weren't to dominate their husbands or compete with each other with expensive clothing and hairstyles, perhaps as a counterpoise to Paul's declaration of racial, class, and gender equality that he gave earlier to the congregations in what is now central Turkey (Galatia). The larger question is what exactly gives you the RIGHT to pronounce judgment on another culture just because it doesn't conform to your modern white European values? -QQuerius
January 18, 2017
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as to:
There is truth in Barry’s point. But I have to say that just because a sound idea (Christian first principles), has led us to a modern democracy, it is in no way an argument that they can not be improved upon; they are a good start, but today we can do better.
Translation: "Move over God, I got this now!" Although rvb8 may feel he is 'morally empowered' enough to improve on God's morality, this ain't going to end well for him :) Empowered - Progressive Insurance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qan-HBGLZQbornagain77
January 18, 2017
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The secnd chapter of the first letter to Timothy: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjugation." "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over man, but to be in silence." "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in transgression." These are not even the most mysogynistic, wait till we delve deeper into Pentateuch. Barry we have just proved a well known fact, that the Bible, Koran, Torah, and probably Budhist, and Hindu scripture can be used by any side to say both yeh and neh! It is a poor source for definitive information about anything, let alone modern law. Basically you and I can quote mine the Bible and it will contradict itself rather unambiguously, to support you and me both. You know this, so why hold it up as proof of a humanism it scarcely promotes; are we going to have a Biblical quoting war? To no one's edification I might add.rvb8
January 18, 2017
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