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So, why are the human and chimpanzee/bonobo genomes so similar? A reply to Professor Larry Moran

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Professor Larry Moran has kindly responded to my recent post questioning whether he, or anyone else, understands macroevolution. In the course of his response, titled, What do Intelligent Design Creationists really think about macroevolution?, Professor Moran posed a rhetorical question:

I recently wrote up a little description of the differences between the human and chimpanzee/bonobo genomes showing that those differences are perfectly consistent with everything we know about mutation rates and the fixation of alleles in populations [Why are the human and chimpanzee/bonobo genomes so similar?]. In other words, I answered Vincent Torley’s question [about whether there was enough time for macroevolution to have occurred – VJT].

That post was met with deafening silence from the IDiots. I wonder why?

I’ve taken the trouble to read Professor Moran’s post on the genetic similarity between humans, chimpanzees and bonobos, and I’d like to make the following points in response.

1. Personally, I accept the common ancestry of humans, chimpanzees and bonobos. Of course, I am well aware that many Intelligent Design theorists don’t accept common ancestry, but some prominent ID advocates do. Why do I accept common descent? Because I think it’s the best explanation for the pattern of similarities we find between humans, chimpanzees and bonobos. Young-earth creationist Todd Wood (who is also a geneticist) has freely acknowledged that it is difficult to explain these similarities without assuming common ancestry, in his 2006 article, The Chimpanzee Genome and the Problem of Biological Similarity (Occasional Papers of the BSG, No. 7, 20 February 2006, pp. 1-18). Referring to studies which highlight these similarities, he writes:

Creationists have responded to these studies in a variety of ways. A very popular argument is that similarity does not necessarily indicate common ancestry but could also imply common design (e.g. Batten 1996; Thompson and Harrub 2005; DeWitt 2005). While this is true, the mere fact of similarity is only a small part of the evolutionary argument. Far more important than the mere occurrence of similarity is the kind of similarity observed. Similarity is not random. Rather, it forms a detectable pattern with some groups of species more similar than others. As an example consider a 200,000 nucleotide region from human chromosome 1 (Figure 2). When compared to the chimpanzee, the two species differ by as little as 1-2%, but when compared to the mouse, the differences are much greater. Comparison to chicken reveals even greater differences. This is exactly the expected pattern of similarity that would result if humans and chimpanzees shared a recent common ancestor and mice and chickens were more distantly related. The question is not how similarity arose but why this particular pattern of similarity arose. To say that God could have created the pattern is merely ad hoc. The specific similarity we observe between humans and chimpanzees is not therefore evidence merely of their common ancestry but of their close relationship.

Evolutionary biologists also appeal to specific similarities that would be predicted by evolutionary descent. Max’s (1986) argument for shared errors in the human and chimpanzee genome example of a specific similarity expected if evolution were true. This argument could be significantly amplified from recent findings of genomic studies. For example, Gilad et al. (2003) surveyed 50 olfactory receptor genes in humans and apes. They found that the open reading frame of 33 of the human genes were interrupted by nonsense codons or deletions, rendering them pseudogenes. Sixteen of these human pseudogenes were also pseudogenes in chimpanzee, and they all shared the exact same substitution or deletion as the human sequence. Eleven of the human pseudogenes were shared by chimpanzee, gorilla, and human and had the exact same substitution or deletion. While common design could be a reasonable first step
to explain similarity of functional genes, it is difficult to explain why pseudogenes with the exact same substitutions or deletions would be shared between species that did not share a common ancestor.

Nevertheless, Wood feels compelled to reject common ancestry, since he believes the Bible clearly teaches the special creation of human beings (Genesis 1:26-27; 2:7, 21-22). Personally, I’d say that depends on how you define “special creation.” Does the intelligent engineering of a pre-existing life-form into a human being count as “creation”? In my book it certainly does.

2. In his post, Professor Moran (acting as devil’s advocate) proposes the intelligent design hypothesis that “the intelligent designer created a model primate and then tweaked it a little bit to give chimps, humans, orangutans, etc.” However, he argues that this hypothesis fails to explain “the fact that humans are more similar to chimps/bonobos than to gorillas and all three are about the same genetic distance from orangutans.” On the contrary, I think it’s very easy to explain that fact: all one needs to posit is three successive acts of tweaking, over the course of geological time: a first act, which led to the divergence of African great apes from orangutans; a second act, which caused the African great apes to split into two lineages (the line leading to gorillas and the line leading to humans, chimps and bonobos); and finally, a third act, which led humans to split off from the ancestors of chimps and bonobos.

“Why would a Designer do it that way?” you ask. “Why not just make a human being in a single step?” The short answer is that the Designer wasn’t just making human beings, but the entire panoply of life-forms on Earth, including all of the great apes. Successive tweakings would have meant less work on the Designer’s part, whereas a single tweaking causing a simultaneous radiation of orangutans, gorillas, chimps, bonobos and humans from a common ancestor would have necessitated considerable duplication of effort (e.g. inducing identical mutations in different lineages of African great apes), which would have been uneconomical. If we suppose that the Designer operates according to a “minimum effort” principle, then successive tweakings would have been the way to go.

3. But Professor Moran has another ace up his sleeve, for he argues that the number of mutations that have occurred since humans and chimps diverged matches the mutation rate that has occurred over the last few million years. In other words, time is all that is required to generate the differences we observe between human beings and chimpanzees, without any need for an Intelligent Designer:

The average generation time of chimps and humans is 27.5 years. Thus, there have been 185,200 generations since they last shared a common ancestor if the time of divergence is accurate. (It’s based on the fossil record.) This corresponds to a substitution rate (fixation) of 121 mutations per generation and that’s very close to the mutation rate as predicted by evolutionary theory.

Now, I suppose that this could be just an amazing coincidence. Maybe it’s a fluke that the intelligent designer introduced just the right number of changes to make it look like evolution was responsible. Or maybe the IDiots have a good explanation that they haven’t revealed?

Some mathematical objections to Professor Moran’s argument

Professor Moran makes the remarkable claim that 130 mutations are fixed in the human population, in each generation. Here are a few reasons why I’m doubtful, even after reading his posts on the subject (see here, here and here):

(a) most mutations will be lost due to drift, so a mutation will have to appear many times before it gets fixed in the population;
(b) necessarily, the mutation rate will always be much greater than the fixation rate;
(c) nearly neutral mutations cannot be fixed except by a bottleneck.

I owe the above points to a skeptical biologist who kindly offered me some advice about fixation. As I’m not a scientist, I shall pursue the matter no further. Instead, I’d like to invite other readers to weigh in. Is Professor Moran’s figure credible?

Professor Moran is also assuming that chimps and humans diverged a little over five million years ago. He might like to read the online articles, What is the human mutation rate? (November 4, 2010) and A longer timescale for human evolution (August 10, 2012), by paleoanthropologist John Hawks, who places the human-chimp divergence at about ten million years ago, but I’ll let that pass for now.

I shall also overlook the fact that Professor Moran severely underestimates the genetic differences between humans and chimps. As Jon Cohen explains in an article in Science (Vol. 316, 29 June 2007) titled, Relative Differences: The Myth of 1%, these differences include “35 million base-pair changes, 5 million indels in each species, and 689 extra genes in humans,” although he adds that many of these may have no functional meaning, and he points out that many of the extra genes in human beings are probably the result of duplication. Cohen comments: “Researchers are finding that on top of the 1% distinction, chunks of missing DNA, extra genes, altered connections in gene networks, and the very structure of chromosomes confound any quantification of ‘humanness’ versus ‘chimpness.’” Indeed, Professor Moran himself acknowledges in another post that “[t]here are about 90 million base pair differences as insertion and deletions (Margues-Bonet et al., 2009),” but he goes on to add that the indels (insertions and deletions) “may only represent 90,000 mutational events if the average length of an insertion/deletion is 1kb (1000 bp).” Still, 90,000 is a pretty small number, compared to his estimate of 22.4 million mutations that have occurred in the human line.

I could also point out that the claim made by Professor Moran that the DNA of humans and chimps is 98.6% identical in areas where it can be aligned is misleading, taken on its own: what it overlooks is the fact that, as creationist geneticist Jeffrey Tomkins (who obtained his Ph.D. from Clemson University) has recently demonstrated, the chromosomes of chimpanzees display “an overall genome average of only 70 percent similarity to human chromosomes” (Human and Chimp DNA–Nearly Identical, Acts & Facts 43 (2)).

I might add (h/t StephenB) that Professor Moran has overlooked the fact that humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, whereas chimpanzees (and other great apes) have 24. However, Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins has published an article titled, Alleged Human Chromosome 2 “Fusion Site” Encodes an Active DNA Binding Domain Inside a Complex and Highly Expressed Gene—Negating Fusion (Answers Research Journal 6 (2013):367–375). Allow me to quote from the abstract:

A major argument supposedly supporting human evolution from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is the “chromosome 2 fusion model” in which ape chromosomes 2A and 2B purportedly fused end-to-end, forming human chromosome 2. This idea is postulated despite the fact that all known fusions in extant mammals involve satellite DNA and breaks at or near centromeres. In addition, researchers have noted that the hypothetical telomeric end-to-end signature of the fusion is very small (~800 bases) and highly degenerate (ambiguous) given the supposed 3 to 6 million years of divergence from a common ancestor. In this report, it is also shown that the purported fusion site (read in the minus strand orientation) is a functional DNA binding domain inside the first intron of the DDX11L2 regulatory RNA helicase gene, which encodes several transcript variants expressed in at least 255 different cell and/or tissue types. Specifically, the purported fusion site encodes the second active transcription factor binding domain in the DDX11L2 gene that coincides with transcriptionally active histone marks and open active chromatin. Annotated DDX11L2 gene transcripts suggest complex post-transcriptional regulation through a variety of microRNA binding sites. Chromosome fusions would not be expected to form complex multi-exon, alternatively spliced functional genes. This clear genetic evidence, combined with the fact that a previously documented 614 Kb genomic region surrounding the purported fusion site lacks synteny (gene correspondence) with chimpanzee on chromosomes 2A and 2B (supposed fusion sites of origin), thoroughly refutes the claim that human chromosome 2 is the result of an ancestral telomeric end-to-end fusion.

If Professor Moran believes that Dr. Tomkins’ article on chromosome fusion is flawed, then he owes his readers an explanation as to why he thinks so.

The vital flaw in Moran’s reasoning

Leaving aside these points, the real flaw in Professor Moran’s analysis is that he assumes that the essential differences between humans and chimpanzees reside in the 22.4 million-plus mutations – for the most part, neutral or near-neutral – that have occurred in the human line since our ancestors split off from chimpanzees. This is where I must respectfully disagree with him.

In my recent post, Does Professor Larry Moran (or anyone else) understand macroevolution? (March 19, 2014), I wrote:

No scientist can credibly claim to have a proper understanding of macroevolution unless they can produce at least a back-of-the-envelope calculation showing that it is capable of generating new species, new organs and new body plans, within the time available. So we need to ask: is there enough time for macroevolution?

I didn’t ask for a demonstration that macroevolution is capable of generating the neutral or near-neutral mutations that distinguish one lineage from another. Rather, what I wanted was something more specific.

In the post cited above, I endorsed the claim made by Dr. Branko Kozulic, in his 2011 VIXRA paper, Proteins and Genes, Singletons and Species, that the essential differences between species resided not in the neutral mutations they may have accumulated over the course of time, but in the hundreds of chemically unique genes and proteins they possessed, which have no analogue in other species. What Professor Moran really needs to show, then, is that a process of random genetic drift acting on neutral mutations is capable of generating these the chemically unique genes and proteins.

In an article titled, All alone (NewScientist, 19 January 2013), Helen Pilcher (whose hypothesis for the origin of orphan genes I critiqued in my last post) writes:

Curiously, orphan genes are often expressed in the testes – and in the brain. Lately, some have even dared speculate that orphan genes have contributed to the evolution of the biggest innovation of all, the human brain. In 2011, Long and his colleagues identified 198 orphan genes in humans, chimpanzees and orang-utans that are expressed in the prefrontal cortex, the region of the brain associated with advanced cognitive abilities. Of these, 54 were specific to humans. In evolutionary terms, the genes are young, less than 25 million years old, and their arrival seems to coincide with the expansion of this brain area in primates. “It suggests that these new genes are correlated with the evolution of the brain,” says Long.

These are the genes that I’m really interested in. Can a neutral theory of evolution, such as the one espoused by Professor Moran, account for their origin? Creationist geneticist Jeffrey Tomkins thinks not. In a recent blog article titled, Newly Discovered Human Brain Genes Are Bad News for Evolution, he writes:

Did the human brain evolve from an ape-like brain? Two new reports describe four human genes named SRGAP2A, SRGAP2B, SRGAP2C, and SRGAP2D, which are located in three completely separate regions on chromosome number 1.(1) They appear to play an important role in brain development.(2) Perhaps the most striking discovery is that three of the four genes (SRGAP2B, SRGAP2C, and SRGAP2D) are completely unique to humans and found in no other mammal species, not even apes.

Dr. Tomkins then summarizes the evolutionary hypothesis regarding the origin of these genes:

While each of the genes share some regions of similarity, they are all clearly unique in their overall structure and function when compared to each other. Evolutionists claim that an original version of the SRGAP2 gene inherited from an ape-like ancestor was somehow duplicated, moved to completely different areas of chromosome 1, and then altered for new functions. This supposedly occurred several times in the distant past after humans diverged from an imaginary ancestor in common with chimps.

However, this hypothesis faces two objections, which Dr. Tomkins considers fatal:

But this story now wields major problems. First, when compared to each other, the SRGAP2 gene locations on chromosome 1 are each very unique in their protein coding arrangement and structure. The genes do not look duplicated at all. The burden of proof is on the evolutionary paradigm, which must explain how a supposed ancestral gene was duplicated, spliced into different locations on the chromosome, then precisely rearranged and altered with new functions—all without disrupting the then-existing ape brain and all by accidental mutations.

The second problem has to do with the exact location of the B, C, and D versions of SRGAP2. They flank the chromosome’s centromere, which is a specialized portion of the chromosome, often near the center, that is important for many cell nucleus processes, including cell division and chromatin architecture.(3) As such, these two regions near the centromere are incredibly stable and mutation-free due to an extreme lack of recombination. There is no precedent for duplicated genes even being able to jump into these super-stable sequences, much less reorganizing themselves afterwards.

Professor Moran asks some more questions about species

In his latest post, What do Intelligent Design Creationists really think about macroevolution? (March 20, 2014), Professor Moran writes:

I’m not very clear on the "Theory" of Intelligent Design Creationism. Maybe it also predicts what it will be difficult to decide whether Neanderthals and Denisovans are separate species or part of Homo sapiens. Does anyone know how Intelligent Design Creationism deals with these problems? Can it tell us whether lions and tigers are different species or whether brown bears and polar bears are different species?

That’s a fair question, and I’ll do my best to answer it.

(a) Why Modern humans, Neandertals and Denisovans are all one species

Modern humans, Neandertals and Denisovans, who broke off from the lineages leading to Neandertal man and modern man at least 800,000 years ago, are known to have had 23 pairs of chromosomes in their body cells (or 46 chromosomes altogether), as opposed to the other great apes, which have 24 pairs (or 48 altogether).

What’s more, the genetic differences between modern man, Neandertal man and Denisovan man are now known to have been slight – so slight that it has been suggested that they be grouped in one species, Homo sapiens (see here, here, here, here, but see also here).

Finally, Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins addressed the genome of Neandertal man in a 2012 blog post titled, Neanderthal Myth and Orwellian Double-Think (16 August 2012):

Modern humans and Neanderthals are essentially genetically identical. Neanderthals are unequivocally fully human based on a number of actual genetic studies using ancient DNA extracted from Neanderthal remains.

An excursus regarding fruit flies and the identification of species

We noted above that Neandertals and Denisovans (which are all thought to belong to the same species) diverged around 800,000 years ago. However, a recent article by Nicola Palmieri et al., titled, The life cycle of Drosophila orphan genes (eLife 2014;3:e01311, 19 February 2014), indicates that orphan genes have been gained and lost in different species of the fruit-fly genus Drosophila. According to Timetree, Drosophila persimilis and Drosophila pseudoobscura diverged 0.9 million years ago. Drosophila pseudoobscura possesses no less than 228 orphan genes.

It seems prudent to conclude, then, that lineages which are known to have diverged more than 1 million years ago are indeed bona fide species.

N.B. A Science Daily press release at the time of publication of the article makes the following extravagant claim: “Recent work in another group has shown how orphan genes can arise: Palmieri and Schlötterer’s work now completes the picture by showing how and when they disappear.” It appears that this “other group” is actually a group of researchers at the University of California, Davis, who have shown in a recent study that new genes are being continually created from non-coding DNA, more rapidly than expected. Here’s the reference: Li Zhao, Perot Saelao, Corbin D. Jones, and David J. Begun. Origin and Spread of de Novo Genes in Drosophila melanogaster Populations. Science, 2013; DOI: 10.1126/science.1248286. I haven’t read the article, but judging from the press release, it seems that the authors haven’t identified a mechanism for the creation of these genes, as yet: “Zhao said that it’s possible that these new genes form when a random mutation in the regulatory machinery causes a piece of non-coding DNA to be transcribed to RNA.”

Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins provides a hilarious send-up of this logic in his article, Orphan Genes and the Myth of De Novo Gene Synthesis:

The circular form of illogical reasoning for the evolutionary paradigm of orphan genes and its counterpart ‘de novo gene synthesis’, goes like this. Orphan genes have no ancestral sequences that they evolved from. Therefore, they must have evolved suddenly and rapidly from non-coding DNA via de novo gene synthesis. And, are you ready? De novo gene synthesis must be true because orphan genes exist – orphan genes exist because of de novo gene synthesis. As you can see, one aspect of this supports the other in a circular fashion of total illogic – called a circular tautology.

At this stage, I think that press claims that scientists have solved the origin of orphan genes look decidedly premature, to say the least.

(b) Lions, tigers and leopards

What about lions and tigers? According to Timetree, lions and leopards diverged only 2.9 million years ago, while lions and tigers diverged 3.7 million years ago. All of these “big cats” represent different species of the genus Panthera. By comparison, humans and chimps (which are unquestionably different species) are said to have diverged 6.3 million years ago.

A recent article from Nature by Yun Sung Cho et al. (Nature Communications 4, Article number: 2433, doi:10.1038/ncomms3433, published 17 September 2013), titled, The tiger genome and comparative analysis with lion and snow leopard genomes, makes the following observations:

The Amur tiger genome is the first reference genome sequenced from the Panthera lineage and the second from the Felidae species. For comparative genomic analyses of big cats, we additionally sequenced four other Panthera genomes and tried to predict possible big cats’ molecular adaptations consistent with the obligatory meat eating and muscle strength of the predatory Panthera lineage. The tiger and cat genomes showed unexpectedly similar repeat compositions and high genomic synteny, and these indicated strong genomic conservation in Felidae. These results could be supported by the recency of the 37 species-Felidae radiation (<11 MYA)(15) and well-known hybridizations in captivity among subspecies in Felidae lineage such as liger and tigon. By contrast, the ratio of repeat components for the great apes was considerably different among species, especially between human and orang-utan(28), which diverged about the same time as felines. The breaks in synteny that we observed are likely occasional rare sporadic exchanges that accumulated over this short period (<11 MYA) of evolutionary time. The paucity of exchanges across the mammalian radiations (by contrast to more reshuffled species such as Canidae, Gibbons, Ursidae and New World monkeys) is a hallmark of evolutionary constraints.

Figure 1b in the article reveals that tigers have certain genes which cats lack. However, I was unable to ascertain whether tigers had any chemically unique orphan genes that lions or leopards lacked.

A Science Daily report titled, Tiger genome sequenced: Tiger, lion and leopard genomes compared (September 20, 2013) which discussed the findings in the above-cited article, added the following information:

Researchers also sequenced the genomes of other Panthera-a white Bengal tiger, an African lion, a white African lion, and a snow leopard-using next-gen sequencing technology, and aligned them using the genome sequences of tiger and domestic cat. They discovered a number of Panthera lineage-specific and felid-specific amino acid changes that may affect the metabolism pathways. These signals of amino-acid metabolism have been associated with an obligatory carnivorous diet.

Furthermore, the team revealed the evidence that the genes related to muscle strength as well as energy metabolism and sensory nerves, including olfactory receptor activity and visual perception, appeared to be undergoing rapid evolution in the tiger.

I should add that although lions and tigers can interbreed, the offspring (ligers and tigons) are nearly always sterile, because the parent species have different numbers of chromosomes.

From the above evidence, it appears likely that lions, tigers and leopards are genuinely different species, and that each species was intelligently engineered.

(c) Brown bears and polar bears

The case of brown bears and polar bears is much more difficult to decide, as there appear to be no online articles on orphan genes in these animals. However, Timetree indicates that they diverged 1.2 million years ago, which is a little earlier than the time when Drosophila persimilis and Drosophila pseudoobscura diverged (0.9 million years ago). It therefore seems likely that these two bears belong to different species.

Conclusion

I shall stop there for today. In conclusion, I’d like to point out that Professor Moran nowhere addressed the problem of the origin of orphan genes in his reply, so he didn’t really answer the first argument in my previous post, which was that we cannot claim to understand macroevolution until we ascertain the origin of the hundreds of chemically unique proteins and orphan genes that characterize each species.

To Professor Moran’s credit, he did attempt to answer my second argument (why is there so much stasis in the fossil record?), by suggesting that even large populations will still change slowly in their diversity, as new alleles increase in frequency and old ones are lost, but that morphological change is “more likely to occur during speciation events when the new daughter population (species) is quite small and rapid fixation of rare alleles is more likely.” But as I argued previously, why, during the times of environmental upheaval described by Professor Prothero, don’t we see a diversification of niches? Why don’t species branch off? Why do we instead see morphological stasis persisting for millions of years? That remains an unsolved mystery.

Finally, it seems to me that Professor Moran has solved the “time” question (my third argument) only in a trivial sense: he has calculated that the requisite number of mutations separating humans and chimps could have gotten fixed in the human line. I have to say I found his claim that in the last five million years, 22.4 million mutations have become fixed in the lineage leading to human beings, utterly astonishing. But even supposing that this figure is correct, what it overlooks is that the mutations accounting for the essential differences between humans and chimps aren’t your ordinary, run-of-the-mill mutations. Many of them seem to have involved orphan genes, which means that until we can explain how these genes arise, we lack an adequate account of macroevolution.

Comments
Nested hierarchies are purely a manmade construct and do not reflect anything but our attempt at cleverness. Linnean taxonomy was based on a common design that used defining characteristics as the criteria for sets and levels. Also the US Army is a nested hierarchy and it doesn't have anything to do with common descent. Gradual evolution would predict many transitional forms which have a mix of defining characteristics and that would create a smooth blending leaving the sets ill-defined, without any distinct boundaries. Nested hierarchies require distinct boundaries and you can't have that with gradual evolution.Joe
March 23, 2014
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Evolve, Similar genomes can be explained by both a common design and convergence. And seeing that the bulk of the genome is for running daily things as opposed to building the organism, I would expect the bulk of most genomes to be similar, especially given a common design. And gradual evolution would not produced nested hierarchies. Transitional forms, by their very existence, is evidence against objective nested hierarchies. And gradual evolution predicts many transitional forms. So please stop using terms that you obviously don't understand.Joe
March 23, 2014
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Evolve- Intelligent Design is not anti-evolution. How can we tell if the evolution we observed is blind watchmaker or not? As for the alleged whale evolution- how many transitions did it take? How many mutations? How can we test the claim that blind watchmaker evolution didit? Genetic algorithms show us the power of guided evolution. No one can even model unguided evolution. You lose.Joe
March 23, 2014
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Evolve, I don't understand the real issue. Mr. Torley accepts common ancestory. That means, he also accepts macro-evolution and all the evolutionary and transitional steps in between. (After all, how do you get from a common ancestor to divergent chimps and humans UNLESS there is transitions in between). So are you just arguing over details, or are you arguing that he is simply wrong to believe in a god? thanksHD
March 23, 2014
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Joe, ///How can we test the claim that blind watchmaker evolution is capable of doing it?/// Evolution IS an observed fact happening around you constantly. Living organisms change one step at a time every single generation. What stops small changes from accumulating over vast time periods to result in a big change? Nothing. We see this in the DNA and in the fossil record in the expected pattern. Otherwise, how do you explain a series of transitional fossils between a land animal and a whale, each progressively more suited to an aquatic lifestyle? If the designer wanted to create a whale, why bother doing it bit by bit incrementally? Oh yeah, I know, that's how the designer wanted to do it! Great!Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Joe @ 49 ///Non-sequitur. BTW chromosome banding is the result of the technique used./// Then why don't we find the same banding in a dog chromosome, if it is a result of the technique? Between, it's not just similar banding, but also similar gene arrangement and DNA sequence - all in a nested hierarchy pattern. The evidence is pretty much conclusive (unless you want to keep on denying everything of course).Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Torley @ 44 ///If you are trying to put forward an unguided mechanism as the explanation for the variety of life-forms we see on Earth today, then it is not enough to account for levels of similarity... You have to specify a mechanism that is adequate to account for the differences between humans and chimps./// The mechanism has been specified and its predictions have been validated. The observed number of nucleotide substitutions between humans & chimps matches the rate of mutation as explained by Larry Moran. What more do you want? How is your proposed mechanism of a totally imaginary designer better? You can twist any explanation offered in support of evolution to fit your designer, as you demonstrated above in your ridiculous account of ape ancestry! When will you realize that such an approach won't hold water, Mr. Torley? ///The second point I’d like to make is that the assumption of common ancestry... This kind of argumentation is perfectly legitimate, if one assumes the existence of a Designer, as I do./// Common ancestry is NOT an assumption and you cannot talk about it in the same vein as assuming an imaginary designer. Common ancestry is the best explanation of the data; because it is not just about shared similarities and differences - those similarities and differences exhibit a pattern of NESTED HIERARCHY. Closely related organisms form a taxonomic group with features unique to that group, but which is nested within a larger group of organisms that are linked by a broader range of unique features. Traits specific to one group are not found outside of it. In fact what we see is a twin nested hierarchy - one in anatomical traits and another in the DNA (not just in genes, but in the entire genome including non-coding and junk DNA). Why are feathers found only in birds? And why do we recover fossil feathered dinosaurs? Why not feathered mammals? What does that tell you? Why is hair found only in mammals and not in reptiles or birds? Why do whales & dolphins have rudimentary pelves and whiskers although they resemble fish? And why have we dug up fossil specimens with intermediate features between land mammals and fully aquatic whales? Humans have 3 tiny bones inside their middle ear, a feature found in all other mammals - extinct & extant, but not in other animal groups. Why? In reptiles, two of these bones are part of the jaw. And we've got fossils showing intermediate stages of the transition between these two states. How do you explain this from a design standpoint? Your explanation must account for all these observations. A word salad about "whys" and "hows" will not work. The nested hierarchy pattern exhibited by living things is damning for the idea of a designer. Human-designed objects share similarities but they do not form nested hierarchies. eg: automobiles. End of Story.Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Thanks for the mathematical exposition. I think I can understand the logic now; I wish Professor Moran had explained it in the posts I cited
Sorry to be cynical Dr. Torley, but obfuscation rather than education of the readers helps them make their case. I had to say something because that's what I was seeing happen. Field measured mutation rates are too expensive to do really well. But to the extent they are done, they agree with those arguing for a literal flood and Ark (not necessarily YEC, since the flood account is compatible with OEC). http://www.examiner.com/article/is-mitochondrial-eve-6-500-years-old The article mentions both human mitochondrial eve and cattle mitochondrial eve. :-)scordova
March 23, 2014
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evolve:
This is a classic creationist strategy of claiming God did it in such a way that one can’t distinguish his mode of creation from evolution.
How can we test the claim that blind watchmaker evolution is capable of doing it?Joe
March 23, 2014
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Evolve punts: Also Miller is totally wrong because the alleged fusion occurred in the HUMAN lineage and didn’t have anything to do with any alleged common ancestry with chimps.
Oh yeah, that’s why we see chromosome banding, gene arrangement & sequence alignment on human chromosome two to correspond with the respective ones on chimp, gorilla & orangutan chromosomes.
Non-sequitur. BTW chromosome banding is the result of the technique used.Joe
March 23, 2014
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Hi Evolve, Just a quick note to say that I'm looking into your claims at the moment. I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Cheers.vjtorley
March 23, 2014
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VJ: I very much agree with you on these points. I would also emphasize the important paper cited by BA, and which I briefly commented in #40. It is really amazing how a very small number of genes in drosophila can be so overwhelmingly complex at transcription level, and be so strongly associated with the development of the nervous system. That can suggest that all the traditional arguments about "similarities" between humans and chimps (or any other couple of species) should be reevaluated in terms of transcription regulation rather than in terms of genomics, especially now that we have the tools to quantitatively explore transcription. After all, without any offense to the chimps (who are very good people), the human brain is really much more complex!gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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Timmy: For me, the best evidence of common descent is molecular: the pattern of homologies and differences in proteins which have similar function and structure in more or less distant species. The differences are usually proportional to the distance (I will not enter here in the discussion about trees of life. Let's say that the same protein in bacteria is usually much more different, at the sequence level, if compared to the human form than, say, the same protein in c. elegans or the same protein in a fish). The best explanation for that, IMO, is that neutral mutations in time change the sequence, while the structure and function are mostly well conserved. That effect is rather consistent, and can be verified by anybody by blasting old proteins which are present in all animals. Frankly, I find it difficult to explain those facts completely by functional constraints (the common design explanation). On the other hand, I agree that the inconsistencies about trees of life, and especially the recent ones originated by the use of miRNAs, are good arguments against CD, or at least against the conventional models of CD. I would really leave the problem open. I don't think that the facts available can give a final answer to that point. Let's be patient, and pursue good scientific explanations with an open mind.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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Hi Timmy, Excellent question. You asked:
My problem is, how can any level of similarity be argued to imply common descent unless all the differences between the two organisms lie within the limits of evolution (i.e., no differences in integrated systems, etc.)?
To answer your question, I'd like to return to a remark made by Todd Wood in his 2006 article:
The question is not how similarity arose but why this particular pattern of similarity arose. To say that God could have created the pattern is merely ad hoc. The specific similarity we observe between humans and chimpanzees is not therefore evidence merely of their common ancestry but of their close relationship.
Notice that the foregoing argument deliberately leaves the question of evolutionary mechanisms to one side. It implicitly assumes the existence of an agent with an unlimited capacity to surmount the differences that exist between any two species. If we make that assumption, then we can indeed view the pattern of similarity between humans and chimps as evidence for common ancestry. The second point I'd like to make is that the assumption of common ancestry enables us to make some powerful predictions regarding future similarities that we'll discover between humans and chimps. For instance, it predicts that we'll find more and more shared pseudogenes. And as Todd Wood writes, "it is difficult to explain why pseudogenes with the exact same substitutions or deletions would be shared between species that did not share a common ancestor." Notice again that he is making a "why" argument, which implicitly presupposes that "how" is not a problem. This kind of argumentation is perfectly legitimate, if one assumes the existence of a Designer, as I do (and as Todd Wood does). But you've hit on a very powerful argumentative point, Timmy. If you are trying to put forward an unguided mechanism as the explanation for the variety of life-forms we see on Earth today, then it is not enough to account for levels of similarity, or even to make predictions regarding future discoveries of shared similarities. You have to specify a mechanism that is adequate to account for the differences between humans and chimps. Until you can do that, then any rhetorical theological arguments you put forward, asking why a Creator would make animals with these odd similarities, really cut no ice: your hypothesis is powerless. Darwin's contemporaries should have realized this. Instead, they wilted under the rhetorical force of his book and turned into nervous Nellies, asking each other, "What if he's right after all? What if natural selection can generate new species?" without demanding proof that it could. In such a frame of mind, they let Darwin's "Why would God have done it that way?" argument bamboozle them. For the first thing a hypothesis has to do is explain the "how" questions, not the "why" questions. Darwinism couldn't do that, but Darwin's argumentative brilliance lay in the fact that he managed to divert his contemporaries' attention away from that key point.vjtorley
March 23, 2014
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Larry Moran's "proof" of the ape-like-ancestor to human evolution is based on a series of unsupported claims: (1) actually there is no proof that DNA is the unique cause of the formation of a certain species. It is likely that many other factors play a role. (2) also if #1 is ok, 98.6% genomic identity between chimp and human (= 22.4 million DNA bases) is highly debatable, because genomic comparison can be done in many different ways and depends on many presuppositions. (3) also if #1,2 are ok, 130 mutations fixed in the human population in each generation is another highly debatable issue. (4) also if #1,2,3 are ok, no one can prove that such 130 mutations fixed are exactly those necessary to the transformation. (5) also if #1,2,3,4 are ok, no one has proved that natural selection passed along those mutations. Lab experiments show that natural selection passes along a beneficial mutation when it has at least a 10% fitness advantage. (6) also if #1,2,3,4,5 are ok, it is again highly debatable and unproved that chimps and humans diverged five million years ago, based on fossils. Fossils tell nothing about the deep differences between man and apes. For example, can a fossil prove a difference in intellect? As a consequence Moran's claim about human evolution from ape-like-ancestor based on the very simple computation "130 x 185,200 = 22.4 million mutations" is ridiculous and gives a good idea of the lack of reliability of Darwinian biology.niwrad
March 23, 2014
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gpuccio #18:
I accept, at present, common descent as the best available explanation for the majority of empirical observations. I agree with VJ, and Behe, and others, on that point.
I mean in this in the most honest way: what would you (or others who share your view) consider to be the best two or three or four observations that are best explained by the common descent? My problem is, how can any level of similarity be argued to imply common descent unless all the differences between the two organisms lie within the limits of evolution (i.e., no differences in integrated systems, etc.)? I mean, what is the explanatory value in positing common descent if one has already invoked the designer? Surely, for example, the differences between chimps and humans far exceed the limits of evolution.Timmy
March 23, 2014
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ba77:
Roy, thanks for the usual Darwinian ad hominem.
Wrong as usual. Concluding that your claims are ridiculous because you are deluded would have been an ad hominem. Concluding that you are deluded because your claims are ridiculous is not. RoyRoy
March 23, 2014
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BA: I checked the article you quoted at #26, and the original paper just published in Nature. Simply wonderful, as usual you are the best at finding the most interesting stuff. The tons of detailed information that are accumulating thanks to new technologies (like RNA-seq) are amazing, and their meaning is just starting to appear. Poor neo-darwinists! I would like to cite here just one of the most surprising results in the paper:
Most transcriptional complexity in Drosophila occurs in tissues of the nervous system, and particularly in the functionally differentiating central and peripheral nervous systems. A subset of ultra-complex genes encodes more than half of detected transcript isoforms and these are dramatically enriched for RNA editing events and 3' UTR extensions, both phenomena largely specific to the nervous system. Our study indicates that the total information output of an animal transcriptome may be heavily weighted by the needs of the developing nervous system.
And:
majority of transcriptome complexity is attributable to forty-seven genes that have the capacity to encode > 1,000 transcript isoforms each (Supplementary Table 3), and account for 50% of all transcripts (Fig. 3a). Furthermore, 27% of transcripts encoded by these genes were detected exclusively in samples enriched for neuronal tissue, and another 56% only in the embryo (83% total).
Do you realize? And all that in drosophila! What would they find in humans, I wonder? I suppose that the ear of "junk DNA" junk is definitely over. Transcriptomics and other bottom up approaches have just started to amaze us. Transcription regulation is what really counts, and the levels of functional complexity will increase of so many orders of magnitude in the next few years that it will be really interesting to see how neo-darwinists cope with that (OK, I know, they are very good at that, they will not disappoint us!).gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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evolve, you claim that genomic similarity is overwhelming
Oh yeah, that’s why we see chromosome banding, gene arrangement & sequence alignment on human chromosome two to correspond with the respective ones on chimp, gorilla & orangutan chromosomes.
Yet you forgot to mention:
"Where (chimps and humans) really differ, and they differ by orders of magnitude, is in the genomic archetecture outside the protein coding regions. They are vastly, vastly, different.,, The structural, the organization, the regulatory sequences, the hierarchy for how things organized and used are vastly different between a chimpanzee and a human being in their genomes." Raymond Bohlin (per Richard Sternberg) - 9:29 minute mark of video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/
bornagain77
March 23, 2014
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So evolve, since no one has ever seen evolutionary processes generate a single gene or protein, and yet God is unthinkable to your atheistic preferences of how things out to be, then materialistic processes must have done it in spite of the fact that you have no evidence that material processes can generate functional information? Ever here of 'begging the question'? 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.bornagain77
March 23, 2014
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Joe @ 32 ///Evolve- why do you just take Miller’s word for it? /// You don't have to take anybody's word for it. You can check the sequence database and find out for yourself. ///Also Miller is totally wrong because the alleged fusion occurred in the HUMAN lineage and didn’t have anythiung to do with any alleged common ancestry with chimps./// Oh yeah, that's why we see chromosome banding, gene arrangement & sequence alignment on human chromosome two to correspond with the respective ones on chimp, gorilla & orangutan chromosomes.Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Roy, thanks for the usual Darwinian ad hominem. Must be tough for you to put up with people so much less intellectual than you are! :) But if memory serves me correctly, Dawkins was very 'unforthright' with his program. In fact, Dawkins Weasel program was mysteriously lost (perhaps his dog ate it) upon request by Dembski and others to see it: Dawkins’ WEASEL: Proximity Search With or Without Locking? - 2009 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/dawkins-weasel-proximity-search-with-or-without-locking/ Provide the Code for Dawkins’ WEASEL Program https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/uncommon-descent-contest-question-10-provide-the-code-for-dawkins-weasel-program/bornagain77
March 23, 2014
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VJTorley, ///I think it’s very easy to explain that fact: all one needs to posit is three successive acts of tweaking, over the course of geological time: a first act, which led to the divergence of African great apes from orangutans; a second act, which caused the African great apes to split into two lineages (the line leading to gorillas and the line leading to humans, chimps and bonobos); and finally, a third act, which led humans to split off from the ancestors of chimps and bonobos./// This is a classic creationist strategy of claiming God did it in such a way that one can't distinguish his mode of creation from evolution. The problem you have with this scenario is that God becomes redundant & unnecessary to explain the data, unless you can provide evidence that he existed during the time and interfered with earth's creatures in the manner you claim. You're also placing constraints on your God by saying he operated on a minimum effort principle. By the way, can you name those genes Mr. God introduced at every point and how they impart the unique characters of each ape species? They shouldn't exhibit the mutation rate we observe universally. It can be tested.Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Now this is a particularly interesting accusation for you, a Darwinist, to make, since Darwinists are notorious for smuggling in information into their evolutionary algorithms (i.e. Dawkins’ targeted Weasel phrase).
"Smuggling"? Dawkins stated up-front exactly how the program worked and where the target string came from. If you think that's smuggling, you're deluded. RoyRoy
March 23, 2014
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Here is a good summary of why the chromosome 2 argument does not wash - 2012 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/spring-it-on-em-and-watch-the-fur-fly/#comment-431951 It's Cherry Picking Season - July 24, 2012 Excerpt (Guy walks into a bar and thinks he is a chimp): I try to outline all the functions of telomeric repeats, but my friend tells me that I am getting off the subject. He wants to me to focus on the ITSs, the tracks of the hexamer TTAGGG that reside within chromosome arms or around the centromere, not at the ends. I tell him that I was just coming to that topic. The story, you see, is that in the lineage leading up (or down, I forget which) to chimps and humans, a fusion of chromosome ends occurred -- two telomeres became stuck together, the DNA was stitched together, and now we find the remnants of this event on the inside of chromosomes. And to be fair, I concede at this point that the 2q13 ITS site shared by chimps and humans can be considered a synapomorphy, a five-dollar cladistic term meaning a genetic marker that the two species share. As this is said, it is apparent that the countenance of my acquaintance lightens a bit only to darken a second later. For I follow up by saying that of all the known ITSs, and there are many in the genomes of chimps and humans, as well as mice and rats and cows..., the 2q13 ITS is the only one that can be associated with an evolutionary breakpoint or fusion. The other ITSs, I hasten to add, do not square up with chromosomal breakpoints in primates (Farré M, Ponsà M, Bosch M. 2009, "Interstitial telomeric sequences (ITSs) are not located at the exact evolutionary breakpoints in primates," Cytogenetic and Genome Research 124(2): 128-131.). In brief, to hone in on the 2q13 ITS as being typical of what we see in the human and chimp genomes seems almost like cherry-picking data. Most are not DNA scars in the way they have been portrayed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/its_cherry_pick_1062491.html The chromosome 2 fusion model of human evolution—part 1: re-evaluating the evidence - Jerry Bergman and Jeffrey Tomkins Conclusion: The purportedly overwhelming DNA evidence for a fusion event involving two primate chromosomes to form human chromosome 2 does not exist, even without the aid of new analyses. In this report, our review of only the reported data by evolutionary scientists shows that the sequence features encompassing the purported chromosome-2 fusion site are far too ambiguous to infer a fusion event. In addition to a lack of DNA sequence data for a head-to-head chromosomal fusion, there also exists a decided paucity of data to indicate a cryptic centromere. In a companion paper (part 2) to this, we report the results of additional data analyses using a variety of bioinformatic tools and publicly available DNA sequence resources that further refute the hypothetical chromosome fusion model. http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1 What I Said about Chromosomal Fusion and Why I Said It - David Klinghoffer - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: [T]he evidence for chromosomal fusion isn't nearly as clear-cut as evolutionists like [Kenneth] Miller claim. Telomeric DNA at the ends of our chromosomes normally consists of thousands of repeats of the 6-base-pair sequence TTAGGG. But the alleged fusion point in human chromosome 2 contains far less telomeric DNA than it should if two chromosome were fused end-to-end: As evolutionary biologist Daniel Fairbanks admits, the location only has 158 repeats, and only "44 are perfect copies" of the sequence.46 Additionally, a paper in Genome Research found that the alleged telomeric sequences we do have are "degenerated significantly" and "highly diverged from the prototypic telomeric repeats." The paper is surprised at this finding, because the fusion event supposedly happened recently -- much too recent for such dramatic divergence of sequence. Thus the paper asks: "If the fusion occurred within the telomeric repeat arrays less than ?6 mya [million years ago], why are the arrays at the fusion site so degenerate?"47 The conclusion is this: If two chromosomes were fused end-to-end in humans, then a huge amount of alleged telomeric DNA is missing or garbled. Finally, the presence of telomeric DNA within a mammalian chromosome isn't highly unusual, and does not necessarily indicate some ancient point of fusion of two chromosomes. Evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg points out that interstitial telomeric sequences (ITSs) are commonly found throughout mammalian genomes, but the telomeric sequences within human chromosome 2 are cherry-picked by evolutionists and cited as evidence for a fusion event.... http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_i_said_abo_1062451.html More notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1enllGchcY4Thz0xWFG8Rj8Y0bddOcBdIzKeoY1XxSqs/editbornagain77
March 23, 2014
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Evolve- why do you just take Miller's word for it? Also Miller is totally wrong because the alleged fusion occurred in the HUMAN lineage and didn't have anythiung to do with any alleged common ancestry with chimps.Joe
March 23, 2014
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Evolve: The abstract of the article you quote:
Comparative genomic analyses have revealed that genes may arise from ancestrally nongenic sequence. However, the origin and spread of these de novo genes within populations remain obscure. We identified 142 segregating and 106 fixed testis-expressed de novo genes in a population sample of Drosophila melanogaster. These genes appear to derive primarily from ancestral intergenic, unexpressed open reading frames, with natural selection playing a significant role in their spread. These results reveal a heretofore unappreciated dynamism of gene content.
So, IOWs, new genes appear from non coding, unexpressed DNA. Exactly. And how do they appear? By mutations. Exactly. And so? You comment: "This clearly shows that new genes can arise by mutations in previously non-expressed DNA and it contributes to speciation." Exactly. Again, and so? I don't understand what you think that VJ (or I, or other IDists) believe. VJ has clearly stated that he believes in common descent. I have done the same here at #18. Joe has clearly stated, at #27: "Evolve- There isn’t anything in those papers that say blind watchmaker evolution did it. You do realize tat ID is not anti-evolution, right?" Have you problems in understanding what others say? So, you realize that the paper tells us nothing about the mechanism of mutation, don't you? You realize that according to this scenario the new gene should have evolved by RV alone, without any help from NS, at least until the new gene is ready and functional, don't you? You realize that an unexpressed segment of DNA cannot be selected for function, don't you? You realize that the probabilities of finding new functional genes that way is practically nil, don't you? So, how do you explain the findings in that article? Those are very good examples of design.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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VJTorley, ///If Professor Moran believes that Dr. Tomkins’ article on chromosome fusion is flawed, then he owes his readers an explanation as to why he thinks so./// Quoting from the following article: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/01/bill-nye-creationism-evolution Tomkins naturally finds all kinds of supposed problems with the genetic evidence; perhaps his biggest claim is that at the alleged site on human chromosome 2 where the fusion occurred, there's actually a functioning gene, rather than the remnants of fused telomeres. ... But that's just wrong, according to Miller. The fusion site is "more than 1,300 bases away from the gene," he says, based on a review of major gene databanks. "These increasingly desperate efforts to 'debunk' the chromosome 2 story have failed before, and they've failed this time, too," Miller concludes.Evolve
March 23, 2014
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If it takes 25 million years just to get two specific mutations to form a binding site for a gene, how long would it take to produce a new gene, binding site and promoter? waiting for two mutationsJoe
March 23, 2014
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Evolve, Seriously? From the summary...
In order to better understand the process by which de novo genes originate, Zhao et al. (p. 769, published online 23 January) examined testis-based gene expression among Drosophila melanogaster strains and identified both fixed and polymorphic de novo genes. The results suggest that spontaneous activation of previously noncoding DNA may be an important factor in generating genetic novelty.
So, they've identified all possible types of genes, fixed, changing, and non-existent. They recognize the results are inconclusive ("suggest"), and that it is not the whole story in any case ("factor"). We need to get you a dictionary, mate. :)drc466
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