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So, why are the human and chimpanzee/bonobo genomes so similar? A reply to Professor Larry Moran

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Professor Larry Moran has kindly responded to my recent post questioning whether he, or anyone else, understands macroevolution. In the course of his response, titled, What do Intelligent Design Creationists really think about macroevolution?, Professor Moran posed a rhetorical question:

I recently wrote up a little description of the differences between the human and chimpanzee/bonobo genomes showing that those differences are perfectly consistent with everything we know about mutation rates and the fixation of alleles in populations [Why are the human and chimpanzee/bonobo genomes so similar?]. In other words, I answered Vincent Torley’s question [about whether there was enough time for macroevolution to have occurred – VJT].

That post was met with deafening silence from the IDiots. I wonder why?

I’ve taken the trouble to read Professor Moran’s post on the genetic similarity between humans, chimpanzees and bonobos, and I’d like to make the following points in response.

1. Personally, I accept the common ancestry of humans, chimpanzees and bonobos. Of course, I am well aware that many Intelligent Design theorists don’t accept common ancestry, but some prominent ID advocates do. Why do I accept common descent? Because I think it’s the best explanation for the pattern of similarities we find between humans, chimpanzees and bonobos. Young-earth creationist Todd Wood (who is also a geneticist) has freely acknowledged that it is difficult to explain these similarities without assuming common ancestry, in his 2006 article, The Chimpanzee Genome and the Problem of Biological Similarity (Occasional Papers of the BSG, No. 7, 20 February 2006, pp. 1-18). Referring to studies which highlight these similarities, he writes:

Creationists have responded to these studies in a variety of ways. A very popular argument is that similarity does not necessarily indicate common ancestry but could also imply common design (e.g. Batten 1996; Thompson and Harrub 2005; DeWitt 2005). While this is true, the mere fact of similarity is only a small part of the evolutionary argument. Far more important than the mere occurrence of similarity is the kind of similarity observed. Similarity is not random. Rather, it forms a detectable pattern with some groups of species more similar than others. As an example consider a 200,000 nucleotide region from human chromosome 1 (Figure 2). When compared to the chimpanzee, the two species differ by as little as 1-2%, but when compared to the mouse, the differences are much greater. Comparison to chicken reveals even greater differences. This is exactly the expected pattern of similarity that would result if humans and chimpanzees shared a recent common ancestor and mice and chickens were more distantly related. The question is not how similarity arose but why this particular pattern of similarity arose. To say that God could have created the pattern is merely ad hoc. The specific similarity we observe between humans and chimpanzees is not therefore evidence merely of their common ancestry but of their close relationship.

Evolutionary biologists also appeal to specific similarities that would be predicted by evolutionary descent. Max’s (1986) argument for shared errors in the human and chimpanzee genome example of a specific similarity expected if evolution were true. This argument could be significantly amplified from recent findings of genomic studies. For example, Gilad et al. (2003) surveyed 50 olfactory receptor genes in humans and apes. They found that the open reading frame of 33 of the human genes were interrupted by nonsense codons or deletions, rendering them pseudogenes. Sixteen of these human pseudogenes were also pseudogenes in chimpanzee, and they all shared the exact same substitution or deletion as the human sequence. Eleven of the human pseudogenes were shared by chimpanzee, gorilla, and human and had the exact same substitution or deletion. While common design could be a reasonable first step
to explain similarity of functional genes, it is difficult to explain why pseudogenes with the exact same substitutions or deletions would be shared between species that did not share a common ancestor.

Nevertheless, Wood feels compelled to reject common ancestry, since he believes the Bible clearly teaches the special creation of human beings (Genesis 1:26-27; 2:7, 21-22). Personally, I’d say that depends on how you define “special creation.” Does the intelligent engineering of a pre-existing life-form into a human being count as “creation”? In my book it certainly does.

2. In his post, Professor Moran (acting as devil’s advocate) proposes the intelligent design hypothesis that “the intelligent designer created a model primate and then tweaked it a little bit to give chimps, humans, orangutans, etc.” However, he argues that this hypothesis fails to explain “the fact that humans are more similar to chimps/bonobos than to gorillas and all three are about the same genetic distance from orangutans.” On the contrary, I think it’s very easy to explain that fact: all one needs to posit is three successive acts of tweaking, over the course of geological time: a first act, which led to the divergence of African great apes from orangutans; a second act, which caused the African great apes to split into two lineages (the line leading to gorillas and the line leading to humans, chimps and bonobos); and finally, a third act, which led humans to split off from the ancestors of chimps and bonobos.

“Why would a Designer do it that way?” you ask. “Why not just make a human being in a single step?” The short answer is that the Designer wasn’t just making human beings, but the entire panoply of life-forms on Earth, including all of the great apes. Successive tweakings would have meant less work on the Designer’s part, whereas a single tweaking causing a simultaneous radiation of orangutans, gorillas, chimps, bonobos and humans from a common ancestor would have necessitated considerable duplication of effort (e.g. inducing identical mutations in different lineages of African great apes), which would have been uneconomical. If we suppose that the Designer operates according to a “minimum effort” principle, then successive tweakings would have been the way to go.

3. But Professor Moran has another ace up his sleeve, for he argues that the number of mutations that have occurred since humans and chimps diverged matches the mutation rate that has occurred over the last few million years. In other words, time is all that is required to generate the differences we observe between human beings and chimpanzees, without any need for an Intelligent Designer:

The average generation time of chimps and humans is 27.5 years. Thus, there have been 185,200 generations since they last shared a common ancestor if the time of divergence is accurate. (It’s based on the fossil record.) This corresponds to a substitution rate (fixation) of 121 mutations per generation and that’s very close to the mutation rate as predicted by evolutionary theory.

Now, I suppose that this could be just an amazing coincidence. Maybe it’s a fluke that the intelligent designer introduced just the right number of changes to make it look like evolution was responsible. Or maybe the IDiots have a good explanation that they haven’t revealed?

Some mathematical objections to Professor Moran’s argument

Professor Moran makes the remarkable claim that 130 mutations are fixed in the human population, in each generation. Here are a few reasons why I’m doubtful, even after reading his posts on the subject (see here, here and here):

(a) most mutations will be lost due to drift, so a mutation will have to appear many times before it gets fixed in the population;
(b) necessarily, the mutation rate will always be much greater than the fixation rate;
(c) nearly neutral mutations cannot be fixed except by a bottleneck.

I owe the above points to a skeptical biologist who kindly offered me some advice about fixation. As I’m not a scientist, I shall pursue the matter no further. Instead, I’d like to invite other readers to weigh in. Is Professor Moran’s figure credible?

Professor Moran is also assuming that chimps and humans diverged a little over five million years ago. He might like to read the online articles, What is the human mutation rate? (November 4, 2010) and A longer timescale for human evolution (August 10, 2012), by paleoanthropologist John Hawks, who places the human-chimp divergence at about ten million years ago, but I’ll let that pass for now.

I shall also overlook the fact that Professor Moran severely underestimates the genetic differences between humans and chimps. As Jon Cohen explains in an article in Science (Vol. 316, 29 June 2007) titled, Relative Differences: The Myth of 1%, these differences include “35 million base-pair changes, 5 million indels in each species, and 689 extra genes in humans,” although he adds that many of these may have no functional meaning, and he points out that many of the extra genes in human beings are probably the result of duplication. Cohen comments: “Researchers are finding that on top of the 1% distinction, chunks of missing DNA, extra genes, altered connections in gene networks, and the very structure of chromosomes confound any quantification of ‘humanness’ versus ‘chimpness.’” Indeed, Professor Moran himself acknowledges in another post that “[t]here are about 90 million base pair differences as insertion and deletions (Margues-Bonet et al., 2009),” but he goes on to add that the indels (insertions and deletions) “may only represent 90,000 mutational events if the average length of an insertion/deletion is 1kb (1000 bp).” Still, 90,000 is a pretty small number, compared to his estimate of 22.4 million mutations that have occurred in the human line.

I could also point out that the claim made by Professor Moran that the DNA of humans and chimps is 98.6% identical in areas where it can be aligned is misleading, taken on its own: what it overlooks is the fact that, as creationist geneticist Jeffrey Tomkins (who obtained his Ph.D. from Clemson University) has recently demonstrated, the chromosomes of chimpanzees display “an overall genome average of only 70 percent similarity to human chromosomes” (Human and Chimp DNA–Nearly Identical, Acts & Facts 43 (2)).

I might add (h/t StephenB) that Professor Moran has overlooked the fact that humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, whereas chimpanzees (and other great apes) have 24. However, Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins has published an article titled, Alleged Human Chromosome 2 “Fusion Site” Encodes an Active DNA Binding Domain Inside a Complex and Highly Expressed Gene—Negating Fusion (Answers Research Journal 6 (2013):367–375). Allow me to quote from the abstract:

A major argument supposedly supporting human evolution from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is the “chromosome 2 fusion model” in which ape chromosomes 2A and 2B purportedly fused end-to-end, forming human chromosome 2. This idea is postulated despite the fact that all known fusions in extant mammals involve satellite DNA and breaks at or near centromeres. In addition, researchers have noted that the hypothetical telomeric end-to-end signature of the fusion is very small (~800 bases) and highly degenerate (ambiguous) given the supposed 3 to 6 million years of divergence from a common ancestor. In this report, it is also shown that the purported fusion site (read in the minus strand orientation) is a functional DNA binding domain inside the first intron of the DDX11L2 regulatory RNA helicase gene, which encodes several transcript variants expressed in at least 255 different cell and/or tissue types. Specifically, the purported fusion site encodes the second active transcription factor binding domain in the DDX11L2 gene that coincides with transcriptionally active histone marks and open active chromatin. Annotated DDX11L2 gene transcripts suggest complex post-transcriptional regulation through a variety of microRNA binding sites. Chromosome fusions would not be expected to form complex multi-exon, alternatively spliced functional genes. This clear genetic evidence, combined with the fact that a previously documented 614 Kb genomic region surrounding the purported fusion site lacks synteny (gene correspondence) with chimpanzee on chromosomes 2A and 2B (supposed fusion sites of origin), thoroughly refutes the claim that human chromosome 2 is the result of an ancestral telomeric end-to-end fusion.

If Professor Moran believes that Dr. Tomkins’ article on chromosome fusion is flawed, then he owes his readers an explanation as to why he thinks so.

The vital flaw in Moran’s reasoning

Leaving aside these points, the real flaw in Professor Moran’s analysis is that he assumes that the essential differences between humans and chimpanzees reside in the 22.4 million-plus mutations – for the most part, neutral or near-neutral – that have occurred in the human line since our ancestors split off from chimpanzees. This is where I must respectfully disagree with him.

In my recent post, Does Professor Larry Moran (or anyone else) understand macroevolution? (March 19, 2014), I wrote:

No scientist can credibly claim to have a proper understanding of macroevolution unless they can produce at least a back-of-the-envelope calculation showing that it is capable of generating new species, new organs and new body plans, within the time available. So we need to ask: is there enough time for macroevolution?

I didn’t ask for a demonstration that macroevolution is capable of generating the neutral or near-neutral mutations that distinguish one lineage from another. Rather, what I wanted was something more specific.

In the post cited above, I endorsed the claim made by Dr. Branko Kozulic, in his 2011 VIXRA paper, Proteins and Genes, Singletons and Species, that the essential differences between species resided not in the neutral mutations they may have accumulated over the course of time, but in the hundreds of chemically unique genes and proteins they possessed, which have no analogue in other species. What Professor Moran really needs to show, then, is that a process of random genetic drift acting on neutral mutations is capable of generating these the chemically unique genes and proteins.

In an article titled, All alone (NewScientist, 19 January 2013), Helen Pilcher (whose hypothesis for the origin of orphan genes I critiqued in my last post) writes:

Curiously, orphan genes are often expressed in the testes – and in the brain. Lately, some have even dared speculate that orphan genes have contributed to the evolution of the biggest innovation of all, the human brain. In 2011, Long and his colleagues identified 198 orphan genes in humans, chimpanzees and orang-utans that are expressed in the prefrontal cortex, the region of the brain associated with advanced cognitive abilities. Of these, 54 were specific to humans. In evolutionary terms, the genes are young, less than 25 million years old, and their arrival seems to coincide with the expansion of this brain area in primates. “It suggests that these new genes are correlated with the evolution of the brain,” says Long.

These are the genes that I’m really interested in. Can a neutral theory of evolution, such as the one espoused by Professor Moran, account for their origin? Creationist geneticist Jeffrey Tomkins thinks not. In a recent blog article titled, Newly Discovered Human Brain Genes Are Bad News for Evolution, he writes:

Did the human brain evolve from an ape-like brain? Two new reports describe four human genes named SRGAP2A, SRGAP2B, SRGAP2C, and SRGAP2D, which are located in three completely separate regions on chromosome number 1.(1) They appear to play an important role in brain development.(2) Perhaps the most striking discovery is that three of the four genes (SRGAP2B, SRGAP2C, and SRGAP2D) are completely unique to humans and found in no other mammal species, not even apes.

Dr. Tomkins then summarizes the evolutionary hypothesis regarding the origin of these genes:

While each of the genes share some regions of similarity, they are all clearly unique in their overall structure and function when compared to each other. Evolutionists claim that an original version of the SRGAP2 gene inherited from an ape-like ancestor was somehow duplicated, moved to completely different areas of chromosome 1, and then altered for new functions. This supposedly occurred several times in the distant past after humans diverged from an imaginary ancestor in common with chimps.

However, this hypothesis faces two objections, which Dr. Tomkins considers fatal:

But this story now wields major problems. First, when compared to each other, the SRGAP2 gene locations on chromosome 1 are each very unique in their protein coding arrangement and structure. The genes do not look duplicated at all. The burden of proof is on the evolutionary paradigm, which must explain how a supposed ancestral gene was duplicated, spliced into different locations on the chromosome, then precisely rearranged and altered with new functions—all without disrupting the then-existing ape brain and all by accidental mutations.

The second problem has to do with the exact location of the B, C, and D versions of SRGAP2. They flank the chromosome’s centromere, which is a specialized portion of the chromosome, often near the center, that is important for many cell nucleus processes, including cell division and chromatin architecture.(3) As such, these two regions near the centromere are incredibly stable and mutation-free due to an extreme lack of recombination. There is no precedent for duplicated genes even being able to jump into these super-stable sequences, much less reorganizing themselves afterwards.

Professor Moran asks some more questions about species

In his latest post, What do Intelligent Design Creationists really think about macroevolution? (March 20, 2014), Professor Moran writes:

I’m not very clear on the "Theory" of Intelligent Design Creationism. Maybe it also predicts what it will be difficult to decide whether Neanderthals and Denisovans are separate species or part of Homo sapiens. Does anyone know how Intelligent Design Creationism deals with these problems? Can it tell us whether lions and tigers are different species or whether brown bears and polar bears are different species?

That’s a fair question, and I’ll do my best to answer it.

(a) Why Modern humans, Neandertals and Denisovans are all one species

Modern humans, Neandertals and Denisovans, who broke off from the lineages leading to Neandertal man and modern man at least 800,000 years ago, are known to have had 23 pairs of chromosomes in their body cells (or 46 chromosomes altogether), as opposed to the other great apes, which have 24 pairs (or 48 altogether).

What’s more, the genetic differences between modern man, Neandertal man and Denisovan man are now known to have been slight – so slight that it has been suggested that they be grouped in one species, Homo sapiens (see here, here, here, here, but see also here).

Finally, Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins addressed the genome of Neandertal man in a 2012 blog post titled, Neanderthal Myth and Orwellian Double-Think (16 August 2012):

Modern humans and Neanderthals are essentially genetically identical. Neanderthals are unequivocally fully human based on a number of actual genetic studies using ancient DNA extracted from Neanderthal remains.

An excursus regarding fruit flies and the identification of species

We noted above that Neandertals and Denisovans (which are all thought to belong to the same species) diverged around 800,000 years ago. However, a recent article by Nicola Palmieri et al., titled, The life cycle of Drosophila orphan genes (eLife 2014;3:e01311, 19 February 2014), indicates that orphan genes have been gained and lost in different species of the fruit-fly genus Drosophila. According to Timetree, Drosophila persimilis and Drosophila pseudoobscura diverged 0.9 million years ago. Drosophila pseudoobscura possesses no less than 228 orphan genes.

It seems prudent to conclude, then, that lineages which are known to have diverged more than 1 million years ago are indeed bona fide species.

N.B. A Science Daily press release at the time of publication of the article makes the following extravagant claim: “Recent work in another group has shown how orphan genes can arise: Palmieri and Schlötterer’s work now completes the picture by showing how and when they disappear.” It appears that this “other group” is actually a group of researchers at the University of California, Davis, who have shown in a recent study that new genes are being continually created from non-coding DNA, more rapidly than expected. Here’s the reference: Li Zhao, Perot Saelao, Corbin D. Jones, and David J. Begun. Origin and Spread of de Novo Genes in Drosophila melanogaster Populations. Science, 2013; DOI: 10.1126/science.1248286. I haven’t read the article, but judging from the press release, it seems that the authors haven’t identified a mechanism for the creation of these genes, as yet: “Zhao said that it’s possible that these new genes form when a random mutation in the regulatory machinery causes a piece of non-coding DNA to be transcribed to RNA.”

Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins provides a hilarious send-up of this logic in his article, Orphan Genes and the Myth of De Novo Gene Synthesis:

The circular form of illogical reasoning for the evolutionary paradigm of orphan genes and its counterpart ‘de novo gene synthesis’, goes like this. Orphan genes have no ancestral sequences that they evolved from. Therefore, they must have evolved suddenly and rapidly from non-coding DNA via de novo gene synthesis. And, are you ready? De novo gene synthesis must be true because orphan genes exist – orphan genes exist because of de novo gene synthesis. As you can see, one aspect of this supports the other in a circular fashion of total illogic – called a circular tautology.

At this stage, I think that press claims that scientists have solved the origin of orphan genes look decidedly premature, to say the least.

(b) Lions, tigers and leopards

What about lions and tigers? According to Timetree, lions and leopards diverged only 2.9 million years ago, while lions and tigers diverged 3.7 million years ago. All of these “big cats” represent different species of the genus Panthera. By comparison, humans and chimps (which are unquestionably different species) are said to have diverged 6.3 million years ago.

A recent article from Nature by Yun Sung Cho et al. (Nature Communications 4, Article number: 2433, doi:10.1038/ncomms3433, published 17 September 2013), titled, The tiger genome and comparative analysis with lion and snow leopard genomes, makes the following observations:

The Amur tiger genome is the first reference genome sequenced from the Panthera lineage and the second from the Felidae species. For comparative genomic analyses of big cats, we additionally sequenced four other Panthera genomes and tried to predict possible big cats’ molecular adaptations consistent with the obligatory meat eating and muscle strength of the predatory Panthera lineage. The tiger and cat genomes showed unexpectedly similar repeat compositions and high genomic synteny, and these indicated strong genomic conservation in Felidae. These results could be supported by the recency of the 37 species-Felidae radiation (<11 MYA)(15) and well-known hybridizations in captivity among subspecies in Felidae lineage such as liger and tigon. By contrast, the ratio of repeat components for the great apes was considerably different among species, especially between human and orang-utan(28), which diverged about the same time as felines. The breaks in synteny that we observed are likely occasional rare sporadic exchanges that accumulated over this short period (<11 MYA) of evolutionary time. The paucity of exchanges across the mammalian radiations (by contrast to more reshuffled species such as Canidae, Gibbons, Ursidae and New World monkeys) is a hallmark of evolutionary constraints.

Figure 1b in the article reveals that tigers have certain genes which cats lack. However, I was unable to ascertain whether tigers had any chemically unique orphan genes that lions or leopards lacked.

A Science Daily report titled, Tiger genome sequenced: Tiger, lion and leopard genomes compared (September 20, 2013) which discussed the findings in the above-cited article, added the following information:

Researchers also sequenced the genomes of other Panthera-a white Bengal tiger, an African lion, a white African lion, and a snow leopard-using next-gen sequencing technology, and aligned them using the genome sequences of tiger and domestic cat. They discovered a number of Panthera lineage-specific and felid-specific amino acid changes that may affect the metabolism pathways. These signals of amino-acid metabolism have been associated with an obligatory carnivorous diet.

Furthermore, the team revealed the evidence that the genes related to muscle strength as well as energy metabolism and sensory nerves, including olfactory receptor activity and visual perception, appeared to be undergoing rapid evolution in the tiger.

I should add that although lions and tigers can interbreed, the offspring (ligers and tigons) are nearly always sterile, because the parent species have different numbers of chromosomes.

From the above evidence, it appears likely that lions, tigers and leopards are genuinely different species, and that each species was intelligently engineered.

(c) Brown bears and polar bears

The case of brown bears and polar bears is much more difficult to decide, as there appear to be no online articles on orphan genes in these animals. However, Timetree indicates that they diverged 1.2 million years ago, which is a little earlier than the time when Drosophila persimilis and Drosophila pseudoobscura diverged (0.9 million years ago). It therefore seems likely that these two bears belong to different species.

Conclusion

I shall stop there for today. In conclusion, I’d like to point out that Professor Moran nowhere addressed the problem of the origin of orphan genes in his reply, so he didn’t really answer the first argument in my previous post, which was that we cannot claim to understand macroevolution until we ascertain the origin of the hundreds of chemically unique proteins and orphan genes that characterize each species.

To Professor Moran’s credit, he did attempt to answer my second argument (why is there so much stasis in the fossil record?), by suggesting that even large populations will still change slowly in their diversity, as new alleles increase in frequency and old ones are lost, but that morphological change is “more likely to occur during speciation events when the new daughter population (species) is quite small and rapid fixation of rare alleles is more likely.” But as I argued previously, why, during the times of environmental upheaval described by Professor Prothero, don’t we see a diversification of niches? Why don’t species branch off? Why do we instead see morphological stasis persisting for millions of years? That remains an unsolved mystery.

Finally, it seems to me that Professor Moran has solved the “time” question (my third argument) only in a trivial sense: he has calculated that the requisite number of mutations separating humans and chimps could have gotten fixed in the human line. I have to say I found his claim that in the last five million years, 22.4 million mutations have become fixed in the lineage leading to human beings, utterly astonishing. But even supposing that this figure is correct, what it overlooks is that the mutations accounting for the essential differences between humans and chimps aren’t your ordinary, run-of-the-mill mutations. Many of them seem to have involved orphan genes, which means that until we can explain how these genes arise, we lack an adequate account of macroevolution.

Comments
Evolve- There isn't anything in those papers that say blind watchmaker evolution did it. You do realize tat ID is not anti-evolution, right?Joe
March 23, 2014
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speaking of fruit flies, I found this following recent study to be devastating to evolutionary thought: Study of complete RNA collection of fruit fly uncovers unprecedented complexity - March 17, 2014 Excerpt: Scientists from Indiana University are part of a consortium that has described the transcriptome of the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster in unprecedented detail, identifying thousands of new genes, transcripts and proteins. In the new work, published Sunday in the journal Nature, scientists studied the transcriptome -- the complete collection of RNAs produced by a genome -- at different stages of development, in diverse tissues, in cells growing in culture, and in flies stressed by environmental contaminants. To do so, they used contemporary sequencing technology to sequence all of the expressed RNAs in greater detail than ever before possible. The paper shows that the Drosophila genome is far more complex than previously suspected and suggests that the same will be true of the genomes of other higher organisms. The paper also reports a number of novel, particular results:,,, "splicing factors" (proteins that control the maturation of RNAs by splicing) are themselves spliced in complex ways; and that the Drosophila transcriptome undergoes large and interesting changes in response to environmental stresses.,,, "As usual in science, we’ve answered a number of questions and raised even more. For example, we identified 1,468 new genes, of which 536 were found to reside in previously uncharacterized gene-free zones.” “We think these results could influence gene regulation research in all animals,”,,, An example they pointed to was the perturbation experiments that identified new genes and transcripts. New genes were identified in experiments where adults were challenged with heat shock, cold shock, exposure to heavy metals, the drug caffeine and the herbicide paraquat, while larvae were treated with heavy metals, caffeine, ethanol or the insecticide rotenone. Those environmental stresses resulted in small changes in expression level at thousands of genes; and in one treatment, four newly modeled genes were expressed altogether differently. In total, 5,249 transcript models for 811 genes were revealed only under perturbed conditions. http://news.indiana.edu/releases/iu/2014/03/drosophila-transcriptome-diversity-uncovered.shtmlbornagain77
March 23, 2014
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Orphan Genes (And the peer reviewed 'non-answer' from Darwinists) - lifepsy video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zz6vio_LhY Widespread ORFan Genes Challenge Common Descent – Paul Nelson – video with references http://www.vimeo.com/17135166 Estimating the size of the bacterial pan-genome - Pascal Lapierre and J. Peter Gogarten - 2008 Excerpt: We have found greater than 139 000 rare (ORFan) gene families scattered throughout the bacterial genomes included in this study. The finding that the fitted exponential function approaches a plateau indicates an open pan-genome (i.e. the bacterial protein universe is of infinite size); a finding supported through extrapolation using a Kezdy-Swinbourne plot (Figure S3). This does not exclude the possibility that, with many more sampled genomes, the number of novel genes per additional genome might ultimately decline; however, our analyses and those presented in Ref. [11] do not provide any indication for such a decline and confirm earlier observations that many new protein families with few members remain to be discovered. http://www.paulyu.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Estimating-the-size-of-the-bacterial-pan-genome.pdf
Moreover 'new' ORFan genes are found to be just as essential as 'old' genes for embryological development, which is completely contrary to evolutionary thought:
Age doesn't matter: New genes are as essential as ancient ones - December 2010 Excerpt: "A new gene is as essential as any other gene; the importance of a gene is independent of its age," said Manyuan Long, PhD, Professor of Ecology & Evolution and senior author of the paper. "New genes are no longer just vinegar, they are now equally likely to be butter and bread. We were shocked." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101216142523.htm New genes in Drosophila quickly become essential. - December 2010 Excerpt: The proportion of genes that are essential is similar in every evolutionary age group that we examined. Under constitutive silencing of these young essential genes, lethality was high in the pupal (later) stage and (but was) also found in the larval (early) stages. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6011/1682.abstract
Darwinists, either ignorantly or willfully, ignore the brick wall barrier that the de novo creation of just one gene presents for Darwinian processes:
Could Chance Arrange the Code for (Just) One Gene? "our minds cannot grasp such an extremely small probability as that involved in the accidental arranging of even one gene (10^-236)." http://www.creationsafaris.com/epoi_c10.htm The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ "Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which—a functional protein or gene— is complex beyond our own creative capacities, a reality which is the very antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by the intelligence of man?" ~ Michael Denton
And though neo-Darwinists like to claim that they have evidence for the origin of new genes, the fact is that it all turns out to be deceptive bluff and bluster on their part:
Hopeless Matzke -David Berlinski & Tyler Hampton August 18, 2013 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/08/hopeless_matzke075631.html
In fact, direct observational evidence from the lab has yet to show the fixation of 'unconditionally advantageous alleles' for fruit flies much less the creation of a new gene in fruit flies:
Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) - October 2010 Excerpt: "Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.,,, "This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve," said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/10/07/experimental_evolution_in_fruit_flies
bornagain77
March 23, 2014
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Joe@ 23, Nice try. But there's no escaping the evidence. The Science paper did RNA-seq on the testis transcriptome of few D. melanogaster strains and identified several newly-transcribed genes which were absent from the D. melanogaster reference sequence. A sequence alignment showed that these new genes corresponded to intergenic regions in the D. melanogaster reference sequence and orthologous regions of closely related species such as D. simulans & D. yakuba. This clearly shows that new genes can arise by mutations in previously non-expressed DNA and it contributes to speciation. Now you guys can go on denying everything as you normally do, but nobody is going to take you seriously.Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Evolve@ 21- Those papers are speculation and have nothing to do with any mechanism. They definitely do NOT demonstrate blind watchmaker evolution producing novel genes.Joe
March 23, 2014
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Roy, Why do use equations that no one has ever verified? The point being is no one knows how fast or slow mutations reach fixation- or even if they do in a blind watchmaker scenario.Joe
March 23, 2014
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VJTorley, Recent paper reporting de novo gene synthesis from non-coding DNA: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6172/769 Reviews on the evolutionary origin of orphan genes: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0024601/full http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v12/n10/full/nrg3053.html Orphan genes are not magically created by the creator, Mr. Torley.Evolve
March 23, 2014
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Roy you state,
I’ve examined some of Sanford’s work before – his Mendel’s accountant simulation – and found it to incorporate so many biased assumptions it’s beyond useless.
Now this is a particularly interesting accusation for you, a Darwinist, to make, since Darwinists are notorious for smuggling in information into their evolutionary algorithms (i.e. Dawkins' targeted Weasel phrase). Algorithms that they have, get this, 'Intelligently Designed' to prove that Intelligence is not necessary for the generation of information. :) Myself, I have found Sanford and company's 'assumptions' to be overly generous to Darwinian presuppositions. And even with the overly generous assumptions granted to Darwinian processes the program still found Darwinian processes to be grossly inadequate to account for the information we find in life:
Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory - 2008 Abstract: Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent “fatal flaws” which are well known to population geneticists, but which have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades—based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue. Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. The program Mendel’s Accountant (Mendel) was developed for this purpose, and it is the first biologically-realistic forward-time population genetics numerical simulation program. This new program is a powerful research and teaching tool. When any reasonable set of biological parameters are used, Mendel provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the “fatal flaws” inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified—with a degree of certainty which should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person. http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Using-Numerical-Simulation-to-Test-the-Validity-of-Neo-Darwinian-Theory.pdf Using Numerical Simulation to Better Understand Fixation Rates, and Establishment of a New Principle - "Haldane's Ratchet" - Christopher L. Rupe and John C. Sanford - 2013 Excerpt: We then perform large-scale experiments to examine the feasibility of the ape-to-man scenario over a six million year period. We analyze neutral and beneficial fixations separately (realistic rates of deleterious mutations could not be studied in deep time due to extinction). Using realistic parameter settings we only observe a few hundred selection-induced beneficial fixations after 300,000 generations (6 million years). Even when using highly optimal parameter settings (i.e., favorable for fixation of beneficials), we only see a few thousand selection-induced fixations. This is significant because the ape-to-man scenario requires tens of millions of selective nucleotide substitutions in the human lineage. Our empirically-determined rates of beneficial fixation are in general agreement with the fixation rate estimates derived by Haldane and ReMine using their mathematical analyses. We have therefore independently demonstrated that the findings of Haldane and ReMine are for the most part correct, and that the fundamental evolutionary problem historically known as "Haldane's Dilemma" is very real. Previous analyses have focused exclusively on beneficial mutations. When deleterious mutations were included in our simulations, using a realistic ratio of beneficial to deleterious mutation rate, deleterious fixations vastly outnumbered beneficial fixations. Because of this, the net effect of mutation fixation should clearly create a ratchet-type mechanism which should cause continuous loss of information and decline in the size of the functional genome. We name this phenomenon "Haldane's Ratchet". http://media.wix.com/ugd/a704d4_47bcf08eda0e4926a44a8ac9cbfa9c20.pdf
It is interesting to note how reluctant some Darwinists are to divulge their programs:
Calling all Darwinists, where is your best population genetics simulation? - September 12, 2013 Excerpt: So Darwinists, what is your software, and what are your results? I’d think if evolutionary theory is so scientific, it shouldn’t be the creationists making these simulations, but evolutionary biologists! So what is your software, what are your figures, and what are your parameters. And please don’t cite Nunney, who claims to have solved Haldane’s dilemma but refuses to let his software and assumptions and procedures be scrutinized in the public domain. At least Hey was more forthright, but unfortunately Hey’s software affirmed the results of Mendel’s accountant. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/icc-2013-calling-all-darwinists-where-is-youre-best-population-genetics-simulation/
A few notes as to the 'hidden assumptions' of Darwinists smuggled into Evolutionary Algorithms:
“The computer is not going to generate anything realistic if it uses Darwinian mechanisms.” Dr. David Berlinski: Accounting for Variations - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2GkDkimkE LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Conservation of Information Made Simple - William A. Dembski - August, 2012 Excerpt: Biological configuration spaces of possible genes and proteins, for instance, are immense, and finding a functional gene or protein in such spaces via blind search can be vastly more improbable than finding an arbitrary electron in the known physical universe. ,,, ,,,Given this background discussion and motivation, we are now in a position to give a reasonably precise formulation of conservation of information, namely: raising the probability of success of a search does nothing to make attaining the target easier, and may in fact make it more difficult, once the informational costs involved in raising the probability of success are taken into account. Search is costly, and the cost must be paid in terms of information. Searches achieve success not by creating information but by taking advantage of existing information. The information that leads to successful search admits no bargains, only apparent bargains that must be paid in full elsewhere. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/conservation_of063671.html Before They've Even Seen Stephen Meyer's New Book, Darwinists Waste No Time in Criticizing Darwin's Doubt - William A. Dembski - April 4, 2013 Excerpt: In the newer approach to conservation of information, the focus is not on drawing design inferences but on understanding search in general and how information facilitates successful search. The focus is therefore not so much on individual probabilities as on probability distributions and how they change as searches incorporate information. My universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 (a perennial sticking point for Shallit and Felsenstein) therefore becomes irrelevant in the new form of conservation of information whereas in the earlier it was essential because there a certain probability threshold had to be attained before conservation of information could be said to apply. The new form is more powerful and conceptually elegant. Rather than lead to a design inference, it shows that accounting for the information required for successful search leads to a regress that only intensifies as one backtracks. It therefore suggests an ultimate source of information, which it can reasonably be argued is a designer. I explain all this in a nontechnical way in an article I posted at ENV a few months back titled "Conservation of Information Made Simple" (go here). ,,, ,,, Here are the two seminal papers on conservation of information that I've written with Robert Marks: "The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of Higher-Level Search," Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics 14(5) (2010): 475-486 "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, 5(5) (September 2009): 1051-1061 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/before_theyve_e070821.html
supplemental note to Dawkins' infamous Weasel program where he smuggled in a target phrase to the search:
A Meaningful World: How the Arts and Sciences Reveal the Genius of Nature – Book Review Excerpt: They focus instead on what “Methinks it is like a weasel” really means. In isolation, in fact, it means almost nothing. Who said it? Why? What does the “it” refer to? What does it reveal about the characters? How does it advance the plot? In the context of the entire play, and of Elizabethan culture, this brief line takes on significance of surprising depth. The whole is required to give meaning to the part. http://www.thinkingchristian.net/C228303755/E20060821202417/
In fact it is interesting to note what the overall context is for “Methinks it is like a weasel” that is used in the Hamlet play. The context in which the phrase is used is to illustrate the spineless nature of one of the characters of the play. To illustrate how easily the spineless character can be led to say anything that Hamlet wants him to say:
Ham. Do you see yonder cloud that ’s almost in shape of a camel? Pol. By the mass, and ’t is like a camel, indeed. Ham. Methinks it is like a weasel. Pol. It is backed like a weasel. Ham. Or like a whale? Pol. Very like a whale. http://www.bartleby.com/100/138.32.147.html
After realizing what the context of ‘Methinks it is like a weasel’ actually was, I remember thinking to myself that that phrase was perhaps the worse possible phrase Dawkins could have possibly chosen to use to try to illustrate his point, since the phrase, when taken into context, actually illustrates that the person saying it (Hamlet) was shamelessly manipulating the other character into saying that a cloud looked like a weasel. Which I am sure is hardly the idea, i.e. deception and manipulation, that Dawkins was trying to convey with his ‘Weasel’ example.bornagain77
March 23, 2014
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By the way, Roy, I think I made it clear that indels would significantly alter the number of base pairs, but would have little effect on the number of mutations.
Yes, but you didn't make it clear how Moran severely underestimated the genetic distance between humans and chimps.
Finally, as I said, the critical question we need to examine is whether unguided processes can account for the orphan genes in the human genome. FYI: http://creation.com/from-ape-t.....-in-crisis Thoughts?
I've examined some of Sanford's work before - his Mendel's accountant simulation - and found it to incorporate so many biased assumptions it's beyond useless. RoyRoy
March 23, 2014
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HD: I would like to say that there are very good arguments in favor of universal common descent, and there are also very good arguments against it. That should not be a surprise. Scientific knowledge is not easy, and apparent contradictions are often a good clue to new understanding. I accept, at present, common descent as the best available explanation for the majority of empirical observations. I agree with VJ, and Behe, and others, on that point. But I respect those who have a different judgement, and remain wholly open to new evaluations. My personal worldview is that our religious convictions should not consciously influence our scientific judgements (they will certainly do that subconsciously, because cognitive bias cannot be eliminated in human experience). Therefore, I am not a creationist, in the sense that I have no desire to use science to justify my religious convictions. That said, I respect those who think differently.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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Hi VJ A couple of questions for you please. 1. You admit to believing in common descent yet spend the post arguing about specific scientific evidence. What's the point? Are you just arguing for him to find better evidence for common descent - even though you admitted to the evidence that HAS made you a believer? I mean, in the end, you both believe in the common descent issue yet for different reasons. 2. What would you say about Casey Luskin's post here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/03/cosmos_episode_083331.html that brings up a bunch of stuff AGAINST common descent (even though he says it MIGHT be true). You seem to be convinced by the most obvious pieces of evidence that has convinced me. What do you say about the counter arguments Mr. Luskin brings up? thank you HDHD
March 22, 2014
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One question Todd Wood asks that I think is a very good one, and goes to the root of Dr. Moran's argument, is this:
The question remains as to why God created an animal that is so similar to humans.
Personally, my response would be that it helps to emphasize how humans are different. Man being created "in the image of God" is not talking about physically similarity, and because we have apes, and chimps, and bonobos, we know that clearly. How would we view ourselves as creations of God differently, if chimps and bonobos didn't exist? Another possible reason would be, perhaps, free will and faith. If man were, for example, the only mammal, would it be possible to be an "intellectually fulfilled atheist"? Would God be cheating?drc466
March 22, 2014
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Oddly, as a YEC one of the points I object to most is the stolen base Creationist Todd Wood grants the evolutionist in your post above: that somehow, common design (morphology) is NOT sufficient reason to expect significant genetic similarity.
A very popular argument is that similarity does not necessarily indicate common ancestry but could also imply common design (e.g. Batten 1996; Thompson and Harrub 2005; DeWitt 2005).
A most reasonable question is that, given the morphological similarities, would you expect the genome to be MORE or LESS similar if humans and chimps don't have common ancestry? I would argue that the genome shows greater difference than one would expect just based on physical similarities, without regard to common ancestry.
As an example consider a 200,000 nucleotide region from human chromosome 1 (Figure 2). When compared to the chimpanzee, the two species differ by as little as 1-2%, ...
Considering that chromosome 1 spans 249 Million nucleotide base pairs, this is like finding 2 sentences in the works of Shakespeare that match 2 sentences in the works of Jane Austen closer than they match the works of Tolstoy. What happens to that % if we double that 200,000 to 400,000? or 2,000,000?
...but when compared to the mouse, the differences are much greater. Comparison to chicken reveals even greater differences.
Again - based purely on morphology, would we not expect this to be true? Why does common ancestry add anything to the argument? Is there some rule somewhere that says if God created man separately, He has to use completely different genetic coding? That's ridiculous.
This is exactly the expected pattern of similarity that would result if humans and chimpanzees shared a recent common ancestor and mice and chickens were more distantly related.
And the expected pattern if they were created. If explanation a is not greater than explanation b, there is no reason to accept a over b.
The question is not how similarity arose but why this particular pattern of similarity arose. To say that God could have created the pattern is merely ad hoc.
Faulty assertion. To say that God HAD TO CHANGE THE PATTERN is merely ad hoc.
The specific similarity we observe between humans and chimpanzees is not therefore evidence merely of their common ancestry but of their close relationship.
No - it is evidence of their close morphology. Why is this difficult to understand/accept? It's overkill to apply the same analysis to the rest of the quote, but I'd like to touch on one more:
They found that the open reading frame of 33 of the human genes were interrupted by nonsense codons or deletions, rendering them pseudogenes.
Really? I'd be willing to bet that, if you randomly mutated ALL "nonsense codons or deletions" in an evolutionist's genome, they would immediately and promptly die. Any takers? Finally - I fear Mr. Wood has chosen to take an oddly pro-evolutionary stance in his paper that is at odds with his stated pro-creation views. Some of his statements are, honestly, difficult to understand. For example:
An insertion or deletion of 1000 nucleotides is only one mutational event, even though the total difference is 1000 nucleotides.
As far as I know, this is a purely hypothetical assertion that is quite difficult to accept. Here he is arguing that a 1000-nucleotide mutation is a) a single point mutation that b) manages to "stick" in the entire species despite c) being probabilistically neutral or deleterious. The reason to not accept human/chimp/bonobo similarity as proof of common ancestry is that: 1) It adds no explanatory power above common morphology (aka design) 2) Genomic similarity is arguably significantly less than would be expected by common ancestry. If human/ape similarity were 99% without the use of dictionary tricks (i.e. same number of chromosomes, same number of genes, less than 1% difference in length, out of every 1million nucleotides 990000 nucleotides matched), then common ancestry would be the better explanation 3) The Bible clearly teaches Creation. On this much Mr, Wood and I agree.drc466
March 22, 2014
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Hi Sal and Roy, Thanks for the mathematical exposition. I think I can understand the logic now; I wish Professor Moran had explained it in the posts I cited, as you both did. All the same, I would like to see an actual measurement of the rate of fixation in the human population over (say) the last 200 years, confirming the calculated rate. By the way, Roy, I think I made it clear that indels would significantly alter the number of base pairs, but would have little effect on the number of mutations. Finally, as I said, the critical question we need to examine is whether unguided processes can account for the orphan genes in the human genome. FYI: http://creation.com/from-ape-to-man-via-genetic-meltdown-a-theory-in-crisis Thoughts?vjtorley
March 22, 2014
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The only way common descent can be an explanation (for similarities, or anything) is if the organisms have all the same integrated systems and structures and the only differences are in fundamentally irrelevant mutations. However small the differences between chimps and humans, it remains that they are clearly not small enough for evolution to have produced them. And even if common descent becomes legitimate, I don't understand why it is preferable to the "lazy designer" explanation, since the two are indistinguishable in this case. Could someone help me out?Timmy
March 22, 2014
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I am reminded of my first compare-and-contrast assignment in kindergarten. Simply, if you look to showcase similarities through comparison, you should not be surprised to find out that you have enumerated a great many similarities. This is no more sophisticated than Stuart Smalley beginning with positive affirmations only to find he feels "good enough" afterwards. The very damning fact remains that what we are really talking about here is an actual infinitesimally small comparative, which means an infinite contrast. My body is made of 100 trillion bacteria. The "human" cells number only 1 trillion. When looking at the genome of the cells, we have historically ignored 99% of the code. Within the 1% that we have paid any attention to, we didn't know about its second layer of code (Duons) until a few months ago. So, 1% of one layer of the genetic code for our cells is 98% similar to 1% of one layer of genetic code for chimp cells. Ouch. Now pay very close attention: My biological makeup is AT MOST 0.000049% similar to chimps. That is neither a strong case for common descent or common design. Can we put this parochial exercise behind us yet? If chimps meant anything at all, we wouldn't be spending all of our pre-human medical trial dollars on rat testing; nor would our best non-human research of problem solving be based on crows; nor would our best non-human research of language be looking at bees and mollusks. This shouldn't even be a discussion among academics. If you tally the quantitative genetic differences, and factor the qualitative epigenetic and trait differences, you find that a comparison of primates is a convoluted and laughable exercise in placebo effect. Please, let us remove the smoke AND the mirrors.jw777
March 22, 2014
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vjtorley in OP:
"Why would a Designer do it that way?" you ask. "Why not just make a human being in a single step?" The short answer is that the Designer wasn’t just making human beings, but the entire panoply of life-forms on Earth, including all of the great apes. ... If we suppose that the Designer operates according to a "minimum effort" principle, then successive tweakings would have been the way to go.
We should not ignore that the "single step" resulting in the simultaneous or concurrent emergence of humans and all great apes presupposes life-sustainable environments without deleterious competition/encroachment. While early humans were more fragile and intelligent and could not survive marauding hordes of apes, yet great apes could not survive modern intelligent human predation/encroachment. Maybe time was required for ecological niches to be established such that all survive. Possibly there are other factors as well. The Designer, like a good engineer, not only seeks elegant efficiency but also shared survivability.Charles
March 22, 2014
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I don't accept universal common descent because it cannot be scientifically tested. Also, contra Moran, we don't know anything about fixation rates. And similarities can easily be explained by a common design.Joe
March 22, 2014
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Professor Moran makes the remarkable claim that 130 mutations are fixed in the human population, in each generation. Here are a few reasons why I’m doubtful, even after reading his posts on the subject (see here, here and here): (a) most mutations will be lost due to drift, so a mutation will have to appear many times before it gets fixed in the population; (b) necessarily, the mutation rate will always be much greater than the fixation rate; (c) nearly neutral mutations cannot be fixed except by a bottleneck. I owe the above points to a skeptical biologist who kindly offered me some advice about fixation. As I’m not a scientist, I shall pursue the matter no further. Instead, I’d like to invite other readers to weigh in. Is Professor Moran’s figure credible?
Yes. The probability of any given allele eventually reaching fixation is equal to it's frequency in the population, so the probability of any single mutation reaching fixation in a population is 1/N, where N is the population size. Your point (c) is demonstrably incorrect both mathematically and by simulation. Your point (a) is also incorrect. Those very few mutations that do reach fixation through drift do not need to have occurred multiple times, though given the size of the human population compared with the size of our genome they may well have done so. Your point (b) is correct, but only if comparing the fixation rate with the mutation rate across the whole population, since the fixation rate is the same as the mutation rate for an individual: m mutations per individual -> m*N mutations per generation -> m*N/N mutations per generation that will become fixed -> m mutations fixed per generation. Our population size means that those mutations happening now will take a very long time to reach fixation, and only 1 in 6000000000 will achieve it, and the current population increase means that there is a temporary slowdown in fixation rates, but that has not applied over most of the last few million years and as can be seen from the above calculation the fixation rate throughout a population is effectively independent of population size.
Professor Moran is also assuming that chimps and humans diverged a little over five million years ago. He might like to read the online articles, What is the human mutation rate? (November 4, 2010) and A longer timescale for human evolution (August 10, 2012), by paleoanthropologist John Hawks, who places the human-chimp divergence at about ten million years ago, but I’ll let that pass for now.
I won't. Doubling the timescale doubles the number of mutations fixed and eliminates any problem. Finally (emphasis mine):
I shall also overlook the fact that Professor Moran severely underestimates the genetic differences between humans and chimps. As Jon Cohen explains in an article in Science (Vol. 316, 29 June 2007) titled, Relative Differences: The Myth of 1%, these differences include “35 million base-pair changes, 5 million indels in each species, and 689 extra genes in humans,” ... his [Moran's] estimate of 22.4 million mutations that have occurred in the human line.
22.4 million mutations could easily produce 5 million indels, 35 million base pair changes and 689 new genes. How is it a severe underestimate? RoyRoy
March 22, 2014
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being similar and being related are 2 different things. There are many reasons why I dont accept common ancestry and one of them being that we dont see true transitionary charts in the fossil records but leaps from fully formed animals to fully formed animals. Now the designer could have added genes to one animal in effect turning it into another but that wouldnt be evolution, that would be the work of a creator with a great imagination. It is this leap of information that makes me sketical of common descent.wallstreeter43
March 22, 2014
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Let me add that, as a Christian, I am proud and happy to be genetically related to chimps and bonobos. They are awesomely complex and wonderfully designed creatures.Mapou
March 21, 2014
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vjtorley:
1. Personally, I accept the common ancestry of humans, chimpanzees and bonobos. Of course, I am well aware that many Intelligent Design theorists don’t accept common ancestry, but some prominent ID advocates do. Why do I accept common descent? Because I think it’s the best explanation for the pattern of similarities we find between humans, chimpanzees and bonobos.
Nice post. However, I don't see why similarity in design necessarily implies common descent. If an architect designs two slightly dissimilar buildings one after the other, where is the common descent in this process? I am assuming that by common descent, one means that the species arose via a long sequence of sexual reproduction events acted upon by random variations. As a software engineer, I know I don't use any kind of sexual reproduction mechanism to derive one class of objects from another. Why could not the designers have a huge database of pre-designed genes to choose from and with which to create new species of animals and humans? And why would they need sexual reproduction to accomplish this? Beings that advanced could easily incubate newly designed species outside the womb, no?Mapou
March 21, 2014
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I think the 1% argument is ridiculous especially in light of knowing the 23 vs 24 chromosome pair difference. I also have never seen a good argument going from 24 to 23 chromosome pairs. So one "ancestor" develops the fused chromosome and then mates with some other animal with 24 chromosomes and then a pair is lost and the fused chromosome duplicates and passed on and then dominates a whole population within how much time? It is also interesting to look at the recent advances in the field "omics" as they are now looking at not only genomics, but proteonomics, and metabonomics. This plus all the epigenetic mechanisms we know of as well. For each gene change there comes a multitude of other changes that do not come with a free lunchThe Predestined Blog
March 21, 2014
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I think the 1% argument is ridiculous especially in light of knowing the 23 vs 24 chromosome pair difference. I also have never seen a good argument going from 24 to 23 chromosome pairs. So one "ancestor" develops the fused chromosome and then mates with some other animal with 24 chromosomes and then a pair is lost and the fused chromosome duplicates and passed on and then dominates a whole population within how much time? It is also interesting to look at the recent advances in the field "omics" as they are now looking at not only genomics, but proteonomics, and metabonomics. This plus all the epigenetic mechanisms we know of as well. For each gene change there comes a multitude of other changes that do not come with a free lunchThe Predestined Blog
March 21, 2014
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Wood feels compelled to reject common ancestry, since he believes the Bible clearly teaches the special creation of human beings Religion poisons everything.Graham2
March 21, 2014
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Should write a book sir! I guess the internet in effect is books. Anyways. Human/chimp thing is entirely based on looks equals like descent. A line of reasoning. If DNA is invoked its the same line of reasoning. Same looks equals same DNA equals same common descent. All mere reasoning without scientific investigation demonstrating common descent. They add a few details. This YEC says it could only be we look like chimps. Primates have the best bodies for a human made in Gods image/intelligence to use and have fun in. What other body type on earth would be better? name it! Since we must be in the spectrum of nature. bum, legs, liver, eyes then HOW could a special being , made like gOD, find a identity in our own body unique from others? We couldn't. Even our hearts in our backs wouldn't do it. therefore we uniquely DO NOT have our own body representing our identity. animals do. We are borrowing the best type of body that was in the spectrum of biology. A line of reasoning to replace other lines of reasoning. Evolutionists do not have scientific evidence for human/chimp common descent but simply a likeness hunch persudes them in the quiet of the night.Robert Byers
March 21, 2014
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who obtained his Ph.D. from Clemson University)
That understates his qualifications a little. He also became a Clemson faculty member and ran a genetics center and was a reviewer of peer-reviewed genetics papers in the secular world. He's very qualified to criticize and reject papers by evolutionists. He's just doing his rejection publicly now. If he disagrees with the numbers being provided by evolutionists, he shouldn't be considered the outlier, they should be. He demonstrated quite well their methods were sampling the 98% that was 98% similar so of course you get 98% identity. I wrote of my encounter with Tomkins here: Jeff Tomkins vs Evolutionary biologist who got laughed off stage As far as Moran's numbers, of course they'll match up! The circularly reasoned mutation rate is reasoned based on the divergence amount and the supposed time of a split. Because of Kimura's formula highlighted here: If not Rupe or Sanford the number fixed will always agree with the circularly reasoned mutation rate. It's circular reasoning pretending to make a prediction when in fact it's a post diction. But this is all circular reasoning.
Or maybe the IDiots have a good explanation that they haven’t revealed?
No Moran, you're the ...... for not recognizing circular reasoning. You can take a tree and a frog, make up a timeline and you'll never get inconsistent results as long as the mutation rates being used are the circularly reasoned ones and not the actual field-measured ones (which are too expensive for anyone to do right now)! The fixation rate will always match the circularly-reasoned mutation rate. The way to settle the issue is to use real-time mutation rates, but that is too expensive right now. Tomkins is right to point out, doing the Chimp genome right is not being done for whatever reason. Is it that it would overturn a narrative? :-) The real problem is how the human genome could tolerate such variability. As Kondrashov pointed out, "why aren't we dead 100 times over!" PS To help you understand a little more: If the effective population was 10,000, and a gametic mutation rate of 100 per individual, that means there are 10,000 * 100 = 1,000,000 new mutations in the pool for that generation. From this pool of 1,000,000, 100 will go to fixation, or 1 out of 10,000 from the entire pool of 1 million. Thus a mutation rate of 100 yields a fixation rate of 100 even though 99.9% of the mutants disappear due to drift.scordova
March 21, 2014
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05:48 PM
5
05
48
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

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