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Thanks for the CSI Debate; Back to Work for Me

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Thank you to all who have participated in the CSI debate over the last few days, especially Winston, vjtorley, keiths, KF, HeKS. It has been an illuminating discussion. Thanks especially to vjt for his effort to synthesize the various positions. I have a real job and I have already spent far too much time away from it on this subject, but I wanted to address one final topic before heading back to work.

Some of our opponents have criticized my “challenge” as being impossible to meet “by definition.” They say that CSI is “defined” as that which is beyond the reach of chance/law processes, and therefore it is literally meaningless to set up a challenge that calls for a demonstration of chance/law processes creating CSI. Of all the responses to this objection (including my own), I think HeKS had the best. He writes:

What needs to be understood is that this does not mean, by definition, that it could not have been produced by any natural process. It is not logically impossible that some natural process could cause the effect in question. Rather, the argument is that we have not actually observed any natural processes ever producing the types of specified effects in question and overcoming the astronomical odds against them doing so, but that we have observed – and do observe – intelligent agency bringing about those kinds of specified effects all the time.

Hence, the reasoning goes that if some effect is calculated to display a high degree of CSI on all chance hypotheses – or, put another away, is found to match an independent specification and also be astronomically improbable with respect to every known natural process that might be proposed to explain it – then design is tentatively considered to be a better explanation of the effect (being the only kind of cause known to be capable of producing it) than an appeal to extreme good fortune that would not be expected to happen even once in the entire history of the universe.

This is the important part:

There are at least two ways this inference could be falsified: [i.e., my challenge could be met]:

1) A natural process could be discovered that shows the effect not to be improbable, thereby falsifying the claim that it demonstrates CSI; or 2) A natural process could be demonstrated to bring about specified effects that are highly improbable with respect to that particular natural process, thereby falsifying the claim that CSI implies design for similar and lesser degrees of complexity (improbability).

This last paragraph articulates the intuition that lead to the challenge. For any specification that we BELIEVE to be beyond the capability of chance/law processes– 500 coins all heads, the first 20 lines of Hamlet, any meaningful English paragraph, etc., etc. – show that belief to be false by showing a chance/law process that has been actually observed creating the specification. The challenge will then have been met.

In other words, if a materialist were to show a chance/law process landing on what we believe to be a highly improbable specification, one of HeKS falsification criteria will have necessarily been met. The materialist will have shown either:

(1) that our belief that that the pattern was improbable given the chance hypothesis with respect to chance/law processes was wrong; or

(2) that even if the belief about low probability was correct, we were wrong to believe that only design can land on specifications with low probability.

Here is the flaw in the “by definition” argument. When we designate a pattern as having CSI one of the things we are saying is that based on our current understanding of all chance/law processes, the probability of those processes landing on the specification in question is astronomically low. The probability is not “defined” to be astronomically low. It is believed to be astronomically low. To meet the challenge, all the materialist has to do is demonstrate that that belief is false. When we make a design inference based on the existence of CSI, we are also saying that our best understanding of the cause of the specification is “design.” Another way to meet the challenge is to show that is not the best understanding, because chance/law forces have been observed creating the improbable specification. Nothing about the definition of CSI precludes that demonstration.

Comments
Another thread devoted to keiths, and yet keiths remains speechless.Mung
November 18, 2014
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Adapa, I stand corrected.centrestream
November 18, 2014
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cantor Is there any materialist forum where one could have an actual discussion, not a bunch of sarcastic comments and insults? What in the world is a "materialist" forum?Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Cantor: "Is there any materialist forum where one could have an actual discussion, not a bunch of sarcastic comments and insults?" Beats me. I don't frequent many of them. But the one I have recently frequented (Skeptical Zone) puts UD to shame with respect to allowing open discussion and attempting to ensure that the "opposition" are not abused. Their greatest testament is the fact that they have only banned one person; a foul mouthed ignorant pig of a man.centrestream
November 18, 2014
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10 centrestream November 18, 2014 at 5:16 pm Moose Dr., a discussion with you is enjoyable because it is an actual discussion, not a bunch of sarcastic comments and insults as we see with some of the ID proponents.
Is there any materialist forum where one could have an actual discussion, not a bunch of sarcastic comments and insults? forumcantor
November 18, 2014
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Moose Dr., a discussion with you is enjoyable because it is an actual discussion, not a bunch of sarcastic comments and insults as we see with some of the ID proponents. This being said, you asked "...must the definition of CSI (complex, specified information) be in any way contingent on the source of that information?" I see where you are coming from but we have to keep in mind the reason that ID latched on to CSI. If it cannot provide an objective measure to separate naturally evolved complexity from designed complexity, what would be the purpose? Nobody is arguing that DNA, genes, proteins, etc. are complex. The only question (and I don't think there really is a question, but that is a different discussion) is whether or not the complexity was the result of natural processes, guided processes, or a combination of the two.centrestream
November 18, 2014
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Keith S, I'm happy to continue on the other thread. However, I am hoping that my colleagues in the ID camp will join in the discussion. My question is really for them, must the definition of CSI (complex, specified information) be in any way contingent on the source of that information? Please follow an actual productive conversation on the above mentioned thread.Moose Dr
November 18, 2014
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I wonder how much Barry paid Dembski for Uncommon Descent. Or to put it another way, how much did Barry pay per pound of crow eaten? He must be stuffed.keith s
November 18, 2014
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Moose Dr, Since we are already having this conversation on the other thread, let's continue there.keith s
November 18, 2014
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Keith S, I agree that Dempski (at least as you understand him) has a poor, unworkable, definition of CSI. Complexity must equal the number of bits of data that defines the "specification". The removal of obviously redundant bits, or bits that are unnecessary for the specification is reasonable when calculating complexity. Complexity should be measured in bits. Specification must define the fact that the information, when "processed" produces something of significance. A definition of CSI that references how it got there is not, well fair. It is a conversation stopper. Once we get to a working definition of CSI, then we can have the discussion of whether RM+NS, as implemented in nature, can realistically explain it. I contend that it can't, but not by mutilating the definition of CSI.Moose Dr
November 18, 2014
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Moose Dr,
Question, if it could be demonstrated that natural processes are capable of producing CSI, would it change the definition of CSI?
Natural processes are incapable of producing CSI by the very definition of CSI.
I think it would not. Complexity remains to be measured by number of bits of data.
That is Dembski's bait-and-switch. He doesn't actually measure complexity. He measures improbability, but calls it complexity.
I contend that CSI cannot reasonably be generated by random means.
By definition.
Please, people, does CSI cease to exist if it can be demonstrated that RM+NS is capable of making it? If so, why?
More properly, anything that RM+NS can produce never exhibited CSI to begin with. By definition.keith s
November 18, 2014
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You're welcome, Barry. Let's review what you learned about ID from the critics:
1. Dembski's CSI is not the same as Orgel's specified complexity. 2. Dembski's CSI requires the consideration of "chance hypotheses". 3. The use of CSI to detect design is circular. 4. Your challenge is empty and cannot be met (the current OP notwithstanding). 5. In Dembski's equation, P(T|H) stands for the probability of reaching the target T by means of any of the chance hypotheses represented by H. 6. H includes "Darwinian and other material mechanisms", which means that you have to consider all possible evolutionary pathways. 7. No one can calculate P(T|H) for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon like the flagellum, which means that no one knows whether life exhibits CSI under Dembski's definition.
You've learned a lot about ID, Barry. You got free tutoring from the ID critics, and you also successfully avoided admitting your mistakes!keith s
November 18, 2014
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Hold the phone! Question, if it could be demonstrated that natural processes are capable of producing CSI, would it change the definition of CSI? I think it would not. Complexity remains to be measured by number of bits of data. Specification remains to be determined by the fact that it specifies some specific thing. I contend that CSI cannot reasonably be generated by random means. However, Dawkins is famous for demonstrating his wiesel program which is purported to produce CSI. We recognize that his program was painfully front-loaded. However, that fact does nothing to analyse the CSI of the expression “methinks that it looks like a weasel”. If we take “evolvability” off the table when defining CSI, then an agreement can be reached as to what CSI is. Only then can the real question “can RM+NS produce CSI” be properly discussed. (This post is repeated from the comment thread below, but I think it got burried there. Please, people, does CSI cease to exist if it can be demonstrated that RM+NS is capable of making it? If so, why?)Moose Dr
November 18, 2014
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Well said Barry and HeKS!Winston Ewert
November 18, 2014
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This last paragraph articulates the intuition that lead to the challenge. For any specification that we BELIEVE to be beyond the capability of chance/law processes– 500 coins all heads, the first 20 lines of Hamlet, any meaningful English paragraph, etc., etc. – show that belief to be false by showing a chance/law process that has been actually observed creating the specification. The challenge will then have been met. And how to you get to your BELIEF that a configuration is beyond what chance/law can do? Here is the flaw in the “by definition” argument. When we designate a pattern as having CSI one of the things we are saying is that based on our current understanding of all chance/law processes, the probability of those processes landing on the specification in question is astronomically low. The probability is not “defined” to be astronomically low. But when a new chance hypothesis explains the configuration well CSI evaporates. Take the 500 coin example, "all showing the same face" is a very unlikely configuration if the chance hypothesis "500 fair coins flipped fairly". But under another chance hypothesis, a repeated series of sampling with replacement, it's an inevitable result. To take another example. In the earlier thread you were presented with a well-sorted pebble beach. That configuration is extremely unlikely if the chance hypothesis is "pebbles placed randomly with uniform probability" (i.e. the colloquial version of "random" placement). You rejected it as an example of a law-like process creating CSI because sorting process that created the distribution leads tp such configurations with high probability. In other words, prove a chance or law-like can create a configuration and (in your mind at least) it has no CSI. With regards biology that leaves us needing to calculate the probability of a configuration (protein/sequence/organ/pathway...) under evolutionary processes before we can assign CSI. But if you can calculate the probability of some feature of an organism arising under evolution is low, then does CSI tell us taht the probability doesn't?wd400
November 18, 2014
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