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The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

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As a follow-up to my previous post:

I am presenting here some results obtained by a general application, expanded to the whole human proteome, of the procedure already introduced in that post.

Main assumptions.

The aim of the procedure is to measure a well defined equivalent of functional information in proteins: the information that is conserved throughout long evolutionary times, in a well specified evolutionary line.

The simple assumption is that  such information, which is not modified by neutral variation in a time span of hundreds of million years, is certainly highly functionally constrained, and is therefore a very good empirical approximation of the value of functional information in a protein.

In particular, I will use the proteins in the human proteome as “probes” to measure the information that is conserved from different evolutionary timepoints.

The assumption here is very simple. Let’s say that the line that includes humans (let’s call it A) splits from some different line (let’s call it B) at some evolutionary timepoint T. Then, the homology that we observe in a protein when we compare organisms derived from B  and humans (derived from A) must have survived neutral variation throughout the timespan from T to now. If the timespan is long enough, we can very safely assume that the measured homology is a measure of some specific functional information conserved from the time of the split to now.

Procedure.

I downloaded a list of the basic human proteome (in FASTA form). In particular, I downloaded it from UNIPROT selecting all human reviewed sequences, for a total of 20171 sequences. That is a good approximation of the basic human  proteome as known at present.

I used NCBI’s blast tool in local form to blast the whole human proteome against known protein sequences from specific groups of organisms, using the nr (non redundant) NCBI database of protein sequences, and selecting, for each human protein, the alignment with the highest homology bitscore from that group of organisms.

Homology values:

I have used two different measures of homology for each protein alignment:

  1. The total bitscore from the BLAST alignment (from now on: “bits”)
  2. The ratio of the total bitscore to the length in aminoacids of the human protein, that I have called “bits per aminoacid” (from now on, “baa”). This is a measure of the mean “density” of functional information in that protein, which corrects for the protein length.

The values of homology in bits have a very wide range of variation  in each specific comparison with a group of organisms. For example, in the comparison between human proteins and the proteins in cartilaginous fish, the range of bit homology per protein is 21.6 – 34368, with a mean of 541.4 and a median of 376 bits.

The vlaues of homology in baa , instead, are necessarily confined between 0 and about 2.2. 2.2, indeed, is (approximately) the highest homology bitscore (per aminoacid) that we get when we blast a protein against itself (total identity).  I use the BLAST bitscore because it is a widely used and accepted way to measure homology and to derive probabilities from it (the E values).

So, for example, in the same human – cartilaginous fish comparison, the range of the baa values is:  0.012 – 2.126, with a mean of 0.95 and a median of 0.97 baas.

For each comparison, a small number of proteins (usually about 1-2%) did not result in any significant alignment, and were not included in the specific analysis for that comparison.

Organism categories and split times:

The analysis includes the following groups of organisms:

  • Cnidaria
  • Cephalopoda (as a representative sample of Mollusca, and more in general Protostomia: cephalopoda and more generally Mollusca, are, among Protostomia, a group with highest homology to deuterostomia, and therefore can be a good sample to evaluate conservation from the protostomia – deuterostomia split).
  • Deuterostomia (excluding vertebrates): this includes echinoderms, hemichordates and chordates (excluding vertebrates).
  • Cartilaginous fish
  • Bony fish
  • Amphibians
  • Crocodylia, including crocodiles and alligators (as a representative sample of reptiles, excluding birds. Here again, crocodylia have usually the highest homology with human proteins among reptiles, together maybe with turtles).
  • Marsupials (an infraclass of mammals representing Metatheria, a clade which split early enough from the human lineage)
  • Afrotheria, including elephants and other groups (representing a group of mammals relatively distant from the human lineage, in the Eutheria clade)

There are reasons for these choices, but I will not discuss them in detail for the moment. The main purpose is always to detect the functional information (in form of homology) that was present at specific split times, and has been therefore conserved in both lines after the split. In a couple of cases (Protostomia, Reptiles), I have used a smaller group (Cephalopoda, Crocodylia) which could reasonably represent the wider group, because using very big groups of sequences (like all protostomia, for example) was too time consuming for my resources.

So what are the split times we are considering? This is a very difficult question, because split times are not well known, and very often you can get very different values for them from different sources. Moreover, I am not at all an expert of these issues.

So, the best I can do is to give here some reasonable proposal, from what I have found, but I am completely open to any suggestions to improve my judgements. In each split, humans derive from the second line:

  • Cnidaria – Bilateria. Let’s say at least 555 My ago.
  • Protostomia – deuterostomia.  Let’s say about 530 My ago.
  • Pre-vertebrate deuterostomia (including chordates like cephalocordata and Tunicates) – Vertebrates  (Cartilaginous fish). Let’s say 440 My ago.
  • Cartilaginous fish – Bony fish. Let’s say about 410 My ago.
  • Bony fish – Tetrapods (Amphibians). Let’s say 370 My ago, more or less.
  • Amphibians – Amniota (Sauropsida, Crocodylia): about 340 My ago
  • Sauropsida (Crocodylia) – Synapsida (Metatheria, Marsupialia): about 310 My ago
  • Metatheria – Eutheria (Afrotheria): about 150 My ago
  • Atlantogenata (Afrotheria) – Boreoeutheria: probably about 100 My ago.

The simple rule is: for each split, the second member of each split is the line to humans, and the human conserved information present in the first member of each couple must have been conserved in both lines at least from the time of the split to present day.

So, for example, the human-conserved information in Cnidaria has been conserved for at least 555 MY, the human-conserved information in Crocodylia has been conserved for at least 310 My, and so on.

The problem of redundancy (repeated information).

However, there is an important problem that requires attention. Not all the information in the human proteome is unique, in the sense of “present only once”. Many sequences, especially domains, are repeated many times, in more or less similar way, in many different proteins. Let’s call this “the problem of redundancy”.

So, all the results that we obtain about homologies of the human proteome to some other organism or group of organisms should be corrected for that factor, if we want to draw conclusions about the real amount of new functional information in a transition. Of course, repeated information will inflate the apparent amount of new functional information.

Therefore, I computed a “coefficient of correction for redundancy” for each protein in the human proteome. For the moment, for the sake of simplicity, I will not go into the details of that computation, but I am ready to discuss it in depth if anyone is interested.

The interesting result is that the mean coefficient of correction is, according to my computations, 0.497. IOWs, we can say that about half of the potential information present in the human proteome can be considered unique, while about half can be considered as repeated information. This correction takes into account, for each protein in the human proteome, the number of proteins in the human proteome that have significant homologies to that protein and their mean homology.

So, when I give the results “corrected for redundancy” what I mean is that the homology values for each protein have been corrected multiplying them for the coefficient of that specific protein. Of course, in general, the results will be approximately halved.

Results

Table 1 shows the means of the values of total homology (bitscore) with human proteins in bits and in bits per aminoacid for the various groups of organisms.

 

Group of organisms Homology bitscore

(mean)

Total homology

bitscore

Bits per aminoacid

(mean)

Cnidaria 276.9 5465491 0.543
Cephalopoda 275.6 5324040 0.530
Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) 357.6 7041769 0.671
Cartilaginous fish 541.4 10773387 0.949
Bony fish 601.5 11853443 1.064
Amphibians 630.4 12479403 1.107
Crocodylia 706.2 13910052 1.217
Marsupialia 777.5 15515530 1.354
Afrotheria 936.2 18751656 1.629
Maximum possible value (for identity) 24905793 2.2

 

Figure 1 shows a plot of the mean bits-per-aminoacid score in the various groups of organisms, according to the mentioned approximate times of split.

Figure 2 shows a plot of the density distribution of human-conserved functional information in the various groups of organisms.

 

 

 

The jump to vertebrates.

Now, let’s see how big are the informational jumps for each split, always in relation to human conserved information.

The following table sums up the size of each jump:

 

 

 

 

Split Homology bitscore jump (mean) Total homology bitscore jump Bits per aminoacid (mean)
Homology bits in Cnidaria 5465491 0.54
Cnidaria – Bilateria (cephalopoda) -6.3 -121252 -0.02
Protostomia (Cephalopoda)- Deuterostomia 87.9 1685550 0.15
Deuterostomia (non vert.) – Vertebrates (Cartilaginous fish) 189.6 3708977 0.29
Cartilaginous fish-Bony fish 54.9 1073964 0.11
Bony fish-Tetrapoda (Amphibians) 31.9 624344 0.05
Amphibians-Amniota (Crocodylia) 73.3 1430963 0.11
Sauropsida (Crocodylia)-Synapsida (Marsupialia) 80.8 1585361 0.15
Metatheria (Marsupialia) – Eutheria (Afrotheria) 162.2 3226932 0.28
Total bits of homology in Afrotheria 18751656 1.63
Total bits of maximum information in  humans 24905793 2.20

 

The same jumps are shown graphically in Figure 3:

 

As everyone can see, each of these splits, except the first one (Cnidaria-Bilateria) is characterized by a very relevant informational jumps in terms of human-conserved information. The split is in general of the order of 0.5 – 1.5 million bits.

However, two splits are characterized by a much bigger jump: the prevertebrate-vertebrate split reaches 3.7 million bits, while the Methateria-Eutheria split is very near, with 3.2 million bits.

For the moment I will discuss only the prevertebrate-vertebrate jump.

This is where a great part of the functional information present in humans seems to have been generated: 3.7 million bits, and about 0.29 bits per aminoacid of new functional information.

Let’s see that jump also in terms of information density, looking again at Figure 2, but only with the first 4 groups of organisms:

 

Where is the jump here?

 

We can see that the density distribution is almost identical for Cnidaria and Cephalopoda. Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) have a definite gain in human-conserved information, as we know, it is about 1.68 million bits, and it corresponds to the grey area (and, obviously, to the lower peak of low-homology proteins).

But the real big jump is in vertebrates (cartilaginous fish). The pink area and the lower peak in the low homology zone correspond to the amazing acquisition of about 3.7 million bits of human-conserved functional information.

That means that a significant percentage of proteins in cartilaginous fish had a high homology, higher than 1 bit per aminoacid, with the corresponding human protein. Indeed, that is true for 9574 proteins out of 19898, 48.12% of the proteome. For comparison, these high homology proteins are “only” 4459 out of 19689,  22.65% of the proteome in pre-vertebrates.

So, in the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates, the following amazing events took place:

  • About 3,7 million bits of human-conserved functional information were generated
  • A mean increase of about 190 bits per proteins of that information took place
  • The number of high human homology proteins more than doubled

Correcting for redundancy

However, we must still correct for redundancy if we want to know how much really new functional information was generated in the transition to vertebrates. As I have explained, we should expect that about half of the total information can be considered unique information.

Making the correction for each single protein, the final result is that the total number of new unique functional bits that appear for the first time in the transition to vertebrates, and are then conserved up to humans, is:

1,764,427  bits

IOWs, more than 1.7 million bits of unique new human-conserved functional information are generated in the proteome with the transition to vertebrates.

But what does 1.7 million bits really mean?

I would like to remind that we are dealing with exponential values here. A functional complexity of 1.7 million bits means a probability (in a random search) of:

1:2^1.7 million

A quite amazing number indeed!

Just remember that Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound is 500 bits, a complexity of 2^500. Our number (2^1764427) is so much bigger that the UPB seems almost a joke, in comparison.

Moreover, this huge modification in the proteome seems to be strongly constrained and definitely necessary for the new vertebrate bodily system, so much so that it is conserved for hundreds of millions of years after its appearance.

Well, that is enough for the moment. The analysis tools I have presented here can be used for many other interesting purposes, for example to compare the evolutionary history of proteins or groups of proteins. But that will probably be the object of further posts.

Comments
Eric Anderson: I have not read the thread, just a couple of the last comments, but my impression is that commenters were not so kind with him. I could be wrong, however. Now, as far as I can understand, Swamidass'OP is no more there. Instead, a new OP by VJ Torley has appeared, titled: "Is it easy to get a new protein? A reply to Ann Gauger" It recycles many of the false ideas about which we have commented here (Szostak) or elsewhere. For the moment, I prefer not to comment again.gpuccio
March 29, 2017
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gpuccio:
Should we say that my results presented here remain unchallenged?
Yes. That's obviously the case. The same could be said about a number of comments posted in this thread.Dionisio
March 29, 2017
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TSZ seems quiet too. (By the way, I noticed that the thread about Swamidass’ paper is no more there… I wonder what the reason may be.)
For the benefit of those of us who don't frequent TSZ, what was the general thrust of the thread about Swamidass' paper? Not defending his misconceptions, I hope?Eric Anderson
March 29, 2017
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Dionisio: Thank you for the summary, and for the support. Yes, I am very satisfied of this OP and of the following discussion, except for the lack of any criticism from the other side. TSZ seems quiet too. (By the way, I noticed that the thread about Swamidass'paper is no more there... I wonder what the reason may be.) If we use a Boolean search syntax, I suppose we can say that: Dissenters NOT timothya == 0 :) Should we say that my results presented here remain unchallenged? OK, that's fine for me. But it's a pity, not so much for the results themselves, but especially for the following discussion, which has been really interesting and stimulating. Thanks to you all. :)gpuccio
March 29, 2017
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Since activity in this interesting thread seems slowing down, here are a few minor observations: As of now, this thread shows 1,178 visits - 146 comments posted = 1,032 "quiet" visits (perhaps some anonymous onlookers/lurkers too?). Over 7 times more "quiet" visits than posted comments? Just 4 politely dissenting comments, i.e. less than 3% of the posted comments were "kind of" antagonist (though seemingly confused, groundless and ineffective). Apparently all those 4 comments were from the same person and they all were posted within the first 30 comments. The conspicuous absence of politely dissenting comments is really suspicious. We see some of those folks very active (though sometimes behave like trolls) in other non-scientific threads and wonder if they simply dislike engaging in scientific discussions? Maybe they don't like serious science? After all, the OP that started this thread is as scientific and technical as it can be. Most probably they just ran out of valid arguments, if they ever had any. Maybe that's all folks. Just some thoughts. Thanks to GPuccio for starting this thread and for answering all the questions that were posted. Thanks to all the folks who commented here. Now let's look forward to reading GPuccio's next article (soon?). Y'all have a good day.Dionisio
March 28, 2017
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Origenes: "Yes we can measure functional information and the funny thing is that evolutionists are unwillingly 100% on board with this idea. Indeed, those preserved shared sequences must necessarily be functional information. That’s the key of the argument." Yes, that's the beautiful part of the argument. It is based on premises that are fundamental for neo-darwinist thought. It's a little like in Godel's theorem: neo-darwinism cannot be at the same time complete and consistent. :)gpuccio
March 28, 2017
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gpuccio @142:
There is so much to understand, so much to research. My firm conviction is that a functional information based approach can really be a “guiding light” in exploring these issues.
Thank you for the information about the biological models that are better known and the comments on the state of affairs in the field.Dionisio
March 28, 2017
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Origenes @143: Are you referring to GPuccio's comments posted @112 instead?Dionisio
March 28, 2017
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GPuccio @113 Yes we can measure functional information and the funny thing is that evolutionists are unwillingly 100% on board with this idea. Indeed, those preserved shared sequences must necessarily be functional information. That's the key of the argument. By adopting the hypothesis of common descent and pointing out those immense functional information jumps GPuccio destroys the Darwinian narrative. *crickets*Origenes
March 28, 2017
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Dionisio: C. elegans remain probably the single model organism in Metazoa of which we know most. A lot of work has been done on it. Moreover, it's definitely a simpler organism than say, Drosophila, which has been studied in detail too. Of the about 1000 cells in C. elegans we know almost everything. We know them one by one. And yet, this detailed knowledge remains tantalizing, because even in this "simple" model the main questions about development that you so consistently pose cannot, IMO, find any satisfactory answer. Organisms separated by about 100 million years are a good frame to study development. C. elegans - C. briggsae is a good start. Mouse - Human is obviously a well studied context. I would definitely suggest Hymenoptera, which have a similar evolutionary separation and three main evolutionary branches (bees, wasps, ants), different enough to be very intriguing. Cats and dogs are separated by a smaller time window, about 40 million years, and could be another interesting model. There is so much to understand, so much to research. My firm conviction is that a functional information based approach can really be a "guiding light" in exploring these issues.gpuccio
March 28, 2017
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Perhaps this could interest you? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268186236_FAST_AND_ACCURATE_GENE_PREDICTION_BY_PROTEIN_HOMOLOGYDionisio
March 27, 2017
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Mitogenomics? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/295394290_Mitogenomics_reveals_high_synteny_and_long_evolutionary_histories_of_sympatric_cryptic_nematode_speciesDionisio
March 27, 2017
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gpuccio,
[...] almost identical morphologically and yet have big differences in their genome and proteome.
Ok, so perhaps this is one of the best candidates to reach that state mentioned @137, because they're almost identical morphologically -and maybe physiologically too? That could mean that their developmental processes could be very similar. Also, since they're much simpler systems than cats and dogs, their developmental processes Dev(x) should be much easier to characterize in details. Also their Delta(d) should be less exuberant. Right? It would be interesting to know if these are the best known developmental processes. That would mean that perhaps soon they could be the systems that could be used to resolve the equations @90, i.e. determine their Delta(d). I'll see what I can find out there on this pair of 'cousins'. Perhaps the evo-devo literature already has them well characterized? The Drosophila is mentioned lately along a close cousin (forgot the name now). Perhaps those well studied models could help too. Should take a look and see. Maybe should include some plants too? Perhaps there are easier examples. Please, let me know if you ever read anything that could help with this task. Thanks. Let's start from this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6806848_Comparative_genomics_in_C_elegans_C_briggsae_and_other_Caenorhabditis_species https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6228314_Comparison_of_C_elegans_and_C_briggsae_Genome_Sequences_Reveals_Extensive_Conservation_of_Chromosome_Organization_and_SyntenyDionisio
March 27, 2017
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Dionisio: I think we are still distant from a sufficient understanding to do what you propose, even is only to explain how C. elegans and C. briggsae, two worms separated by about 100 million years of evolutionary distance, are almost identical morphologically and yet have big differences in their genome and proteome. As I have tried to say, morphology is still a mystery, however we look at it!gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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gpuccio @136: Thank you for extending your comments posted @91. I think you have satisfied my curiosity on this topic. At least for the moment. :) Now, on the last part of the comment @91, which was related to the comment @90 and later was followed by the comment @92, you wrote:
Regarding you question about the equations, I think you are right, but how do you think we can set the equations, with so many components we still don’t understand?
Which of the known splits you referred to in the illustration of your methodology in this OP do you think is closer to reach the state where they know the developmental process of the line that splits and at least one of the branches produced by the split, so that we can determine the changes that are required to go from one to another? Can we get there faster if we try it for biological systems that are closer to each other, like the cats and dogs? If cats and dogs share a common ancestor, how far are we from defining the required changes to get dogs or cats from their last common ancestor?Dionisio
March 27, 2017
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Dionisio: Again, I am not an expert of these things. Fossils are useful, I suppose, to determine the chronology of events. We can trace some groups of organisms back at least to when the first fossils appear. That's how we know of the Cambrian explosion, and of other important events in natural history. Fossils can be dated with some precision, I think, mainly according to the strata where they are found. Then there is the problem of classification, which obviously starts at the level of morhology, and uses data from genomics and proteomics. Molecular clocks can add information. I think it is obvious that it is not simple to try to reconstruct the natural connections of different species, and the chronology of their appearance on earth. Why should it be easy? Science is never easy. Data are sometimes contradictory, or incomplete. Theories are often shown wrong, and they have to be substituted. That's the normal way science works. There is nothing wrong in that, provided that scientists really try to understand reality according to available data. The problem is when that does not happen any more. That's when cognitive bias prevaricates available evidence. A bias is systematic error: not the error of human limitations, which is natural and often good, because in the long term it leads to truth; but rather the error of human arrogance, of the desire to explain things according to prejudice.gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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gpuccio @91: Regarding the biological classification criteria being based on physiological, phenotypic or genetic parameters, you wrote this:
I think they are based on the sum total of what is available. It is not a simple field, and experts are constantly debating about those things. Which is good. I suppose that the fossil record remains the foundation, but molecular data are a great contribution.
Why isn't it a simple field? What makes it difficult? What things are experts constantly debating? Why? How accurate are the times associated with the fossil record? How are they determined? How do the molecular data contribute to this field? Thank you.Dionisio
March 27, 2017
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gpuccio @111:
The origin of form still remains one of the great mysteries out there. Morphogens are certainly part of the answer, but just a small part. And the epigenetic approach is simply confirming what we already knew: that we really don’t understand how form, from whole body plans to the minuscule details, originates.
Well, there's a distinguished exception: professor Larry Moran, who responded "Yes" to the question "Do you know exactly how morphogen gradients are formed?". In the thread "Mystery at the heart of life" there are several references to research papers that cover this topic. Everybody is welcome to read all that and draw their own conclusions. However, the increasing flow of discoveries are shedding more light on the subject, revealing a very interesting control level with novel codes and the whole nine yard. Simply fascinating. But as some outstanding questions get answered, new ones are raised. Unending Revelation of the Ultimate Reality. (c)Dionisio
March 27, 2017
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bill cole: "To get a precise value is difficult but for purposes of estimation of the new information required to make evolutionary jumps, your work yields solid information." That's exactly my idea. I don't think we need precise values here, but rather reliable approximations, that can allow us to see tendencies, and to understand the basic modalities of evolution of information.gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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Gpuccio
2) Can anyone still defend the position that functional information cannot be measured in any practical way, or in any real-life context?
I think this is the most difficult requirement. Without biological experiment how do we know all the possible sequences that are available to human beta catenin? You also cannot isolate this because a single mutation may work fine on its own but what if the APC protein has a single mutation that works with the wild type beta catenin but not with the mutant. So the functional information in a single gene is not isolated to that gene. To get a precise value is difficult but for purposes of estimation of the new information required to make evolutionary jumps, your work yields solid information.bill cole
March 27, 2017
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Eric Anderson: Fine! IOWs, you are saying that first we have to give a binary value to the function, and then measure the complexity linked to the presence of the function. That's perfectly correct. In the specific case of my methodology, I define function rather indirectly. It could be more or less this: "Let's define as functional parts common to two lineages the parts of a protein sequence that are enough functionally constrained to be conserved between the two different organism lineages, even if separated by a very long evolutionary split time (in the case of pre-vertebrates vs vertebrates, more than 400 million years)." Then, by effecting the alignment between the proteins in the two organisms, and getting an homology bitscore, we consider that bitscore as a satisfying measure of the complexity in bits linked to that functional definition, for that protein. IOWs if we have a bitscore of, say, 250 bits between a human protein and the best homologue in pre-vertebrates, then we say that the functional part of that protein common to the two lineages, defined as the part that is so functionally constrained that it can be conserved for more than 400 million years in both lineages, has a complexity of about 250 bits. The important point here, again, is our definition of the function whose complexity we are measuring. IOWs, we are not measuring the total functional complexity of a protein, but the functional complexity which is shared between two lineages through a long enough evolutionary separation. To give the idea in brief, I have used the term "human conserved functional information". Which means exactly what I have explained here.gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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gpuccio @22:
2) Can anyone still defend the position that functional information cannot be measured in any practical way, or in any real-life context?
OK, I'll bite. :) Yes, there are ways to measure functional information -- as long as we have recognized it as such in the first place. In other words, we can't just throw math at a system and discover if we are dealing with complex specified information. But I agree that once we know we are dealing with such information (by recognizing meaning, purpose, function, etc.), then there are ways we can measure the level of complexity involved in how that information has been represented.Eric Anderson
March 27, 2017
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KF @127:
Imagine, objectors making objections in order to object, [...]
Yes, that's the undeniable sad reality. Thank you for your insightful comments here, which could serve as an interesting historical prologue to a technical paper GP could write in he future for many to enjoy reading. It's depressing to see how much criticism is out there by those who wrongly claim that the ID paradigm lacks scientific substance, but just about 3% of the comments posted in this scientific discussion are from those critical voices. When those folks are given opportunities like this to present their arguments, their conspicuous absence raises some questions. Obviously, we know they lack valid serious arguments, but still they could politely present whatever argument they have. A couple of years ago I asked a very simple biology-related question to a Canadian biochemistry professor in this site. I'm still scratching my head trying to understand what could have possessed him to write such a pathetically wrong answer. I was looking forward to have an interesting discussion but was disappointed because the professor quit right away, saying that I did not ask honest questions. Denyse translated that to me from Canadian academic English to commoners' jargon, but her explanation did not satisfy my curiosity. I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong then. I definitely respect that professor and thought I could learn quite a bit from a serious biology-related discussion with him, but unfortunately it turned sour and was aborted prematurely. Perhaps he quit because it would have been a waste of time for him to discuss biology issues with someone who publicly had declared that knows very little about that topic? Maybe. Does anyone recall that incident? It's recorded in this site. Anybody can read it again. It's quite different in the case of GP answering all my dumb questions, sometimes repeated questions, probably annoying questions too. :) Now, why is it that a Canadian doctor can't stand such a discussion while an Italian doctor can? Maybe that's because Hispanics and Italians have more in common? :)Dionisio
March 27, 2017
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KF: Thank you for your kind words. Yes, it is sad to face such a denial of obvious truths. However, on the other hand, it is a joyous privilege to fight for them! :)gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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GP, I think your contribution is A1 grade. Just, I am amazed that we have had to go to this sort of length of belabouring the obvious. Imagine, objectors making objections in order to object, create further examples of the sort of functionally specific information they decry: instantly absurd. Then, the denial that we are looking at text in DNA simply tells me that they are desperate not to see what is plainly, Nobel Proize winningly there. That speaks saddening volumes on where we are as a civilisation today. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2017
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KF: Thank you for your precious intervention and historical clarification and perspective. Of course the concept of functional information is not new at all. My contribution has simply the aim to apply that old and well established concept in a systematic way, and to provide some tangible example of how useful that concept can be in biology. And, of course, to try to quantify specific instances of that functional information to add support to ID theory. With special thoughts to our "politely dissenting interlocutors" (at present rather latitant) who, certainly out of "selective hyperskepticism, not any responsible position", insist in denial of the concept or of its measurement strategies. And, I am afraid, there are a lot of them...gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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GP, frankly the first question was answered by March 19, 1953 in Crick's letter to his son, which recently sold for US$ 6 millions. An acknowledgement of its significance. The second and third were answered before that, as information was definitively put on the table in a quantified, functional context in 1948. In terms of specific metrics of functional information, those have been developed in recent years. The objections have represented selective hyperskepticism, not any responsible position, all along. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2017
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Dionisio: "Next time someone pops up in another discussion stating those positions they should be referred to your comment @122 here in this thread:" I hope they will...gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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gpuccio, Excellent questions. And very easy to respond. Next time someone pops up in another discussion stating those positions they should be referred to your comment @122 here in this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-amazing-level-of-engineering-in-the-transition-to-the-vertebrate-proteome-a-global-analysis/#comment-627784Dionisio
March 27, 2017
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Dionisio: A good summary. Now, just for the sake of it, I would like to propose a few simple questions to our "politely dissenting interlocutors" (as you call them), or, for what it is worth, to anyone interested. In the light of the methodology and the results presented here: 1) Can anyone still defend the position that functional information does not exist, or that it is a vague, ill defined philosophical concept? 2) Can anyone still defend the position that functional information cannot be measured in any practical way, or in any real-life context? 3) Can anyone still defend the position that functional information, even if measured, is of no interest to the understanding of biological systems? Just to know. :) Because I am certain that at the first occasion, in different discussions, a lot of people will be ready to state exactly those positions, when it is necessary for them to defend some undefendable aspect of their neo-darwinian world view.gpuccio
March 27, 2017
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