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The challenges that materialist atheism cannot face effectively

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Our own Gil Dodgen has written some interesting posts on how he ceased to be an atheist, and now I see that columnist Frank Pastore weighs in on the same theme. He lists four challenges to atheism, as follows:

1. Origin of the universe

2. Origin of life

3. Origin of the mind

4. Origin of morality

What I found while researching By Design or by Chance? and The Spiritual Brain is not that materialists have no answers but that their answers are based mainly on promissory materialism (hey folks, we’re still working on it. Give us another few centuries …), when they are not based on merely suppressing dissent or promoting foolish ideas to the popular science media.

Anyway, Pastore advises,

Since the pre-Socratics, atheists have been intellectual parasites living off the host of Western Civilization. Able to con-struct so very little of their own that is either true, good, or beautiful, they live on the borrowed capital of their believing intellectual parents. Atheists have been asserting the same basic mechanistic worldview, and with roughly the same suc-cess, for centuries. They sell books and win converts from time to time, sure, especially among those gullible enough to buy the “just popped” thesis. Don’t be gullible.

 I’d be interested to hear Gil’s reaction.

The thing to keep in mind though, it seems to me, is that the materialist/Darwinist will always come up with an explanation within his system – in the same way and for the same reasons as the Marxist could always come up with an explanation within his system for any given fact.

For example, according to evolutionary psychologists, religion is and is not adaptive – both points of view can be maintained within evolutionary psychology quite comfortably, even though they cancel each other out and imply that the discipline - if discipline it is - is not capable of discovering basic, definite information about the origin of religion.

The only point of view that cannot be maintained within standard evolutionary psychology is that religion is evidence of transcendence – that is, it arose because, at one time or another, people really did contact a reality behind the universe.

I am hardly surprised to learn that dying de-spiritualized religious denominations have been flirting with evolutionary psychology; it’s only useful function, so far as I can see, is as a sort of humane lethal injection that puts such institutions out of their collective misery before they mislead anyone else about the nature of spiritual experience. The would-be remaining congregants would invariably be better off somewhere else anyway.

 UPDATE: I can’t bring myself to make this a regular post, so I have simply added it to this post. Go here to get some idea of what Darwinian biology, pursued seriously, can lead to. (Thanks to John A. Davison, a sometimes-banned commenter here at Uncommon Descent, for letting us know.) – Denyse

Here are some of my recent posts on related subjects at the Post-Darwinist and the Mindful Hack :

Denyse O’ Leary’s take on the Economist’s recent relatively reasonable piece on the growing globalization of intelligent design advocacy: I know no reason to think that the elite Economistas are particularly happy with the grassroots uprising against radical materialism, but one really remarkable thing about both this article and Patricia Cohen’s account of a recent debate between conservatives in The New York Times is the slow decline in language bias. Has it begun to dawn on some newsrooms that Darwinism really is a problem and that intelligent design is not going away?

Denyse O’Leary’s take on the media significance of the fact that Michael Behe was asked to write the entry for Richard Dawkins in Time 100.

Pope Benedict vs. a chance origin of the universe – lines from an early lecture.

Why there is no compatibility between traditional communities of any kind and accounts of spiritual beliefs derived from Darwinism.

A most interesting survey of views in evolutionary psychology on religious belief makes quite clear that there is NO room in the evo psycho paradigm for the view that spirituality relates to any fact about the universe. Hence the folly of trying to get traditional communities to support Darwinian evolution. .

On language and mystical experience: can language tell us what is real?

A Washington Post article reveals that 53 percent of university profs have unfavorable feelings toward evangelicals. Is that partly because so many doubt Darwin? (This one is at Access Research Network.)

Comments
jared That's a really good reason for not closing the door on theistic belief. This however raises a further problem in which particular flavor of theism is the right one. Who am I to decide that a billion Buddhists or Hindus might not be the ones who have it right? In my personal life however I'm inclined to take up Pascal's Wager. If atheists are right and you aren't an atheist nothing much is lost. If theists are right and you're an atheist there might be hell to pay. The smart money picks a theistic belief that's suitable to his personal tastes and at least goes through the motions just in case. I chose non-denominational Protestantism. It makes a great working basis for civil and productive society, the overhead is minimal (ask to be saved and you are saved), I was saved as a child so there's nothing more that needs doing (once saved always saved), it's a common religion where I live so its easy to fit in, and so there's really no downside unless some other religion is right but I don't have enough evidence to make that determination. Pascal's Wager to the letter. DaveScot
May 8, 2007
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DaveScot, those are valid questions, and I've certainly pondered on them myself. But, if this omnipotent creator also prizes faith (not blind faith, but informed faith that results in either obvious natural or supernatural consequences), then it would make sense that man's quest to seek God, to understand His mystery, to cry out to Him during the dark night of the soul, is in fact a beautiful thing that not only is pleasing to God but is actually the fundamental story of humanity.Jared White
May 8, 2007
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Re 51 Borne My only point was that IDist's argument supports the green cockroach theory just as strongly as the conscious entity theory. You have introduced another argument: The cause of the universe must be adequate to its consequences. So let's look at this new argument. I have no idea what would be adequate for causing a universe. It is unobservable and unimaginable. I am not even sure what "cause" means in this context. Like you, I am sceptical about green cockroaches. None of the cockroaches I have come across seem to be up to the job. But then again none of the conscious beings I have come across are candidates either. Jerry wrote: Atheism is an affirmation not a bewilderment. Actually my atheism includes massive bewilderment - especially about the origin of the universe. Anything other than bewilderment would be surprising in the face of such an inconceivable proposition. I just don't find the possibility of a loosely defined conscious "something" helps.markf
May 8, 2007
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wakefield One question is why is the evidence for God not more open, seeing that most everything that USED to be posited as the effects of deities like thunder and fire and chance happenings are now more easily explained via science. I agree with your sentiment here. Why does an omnipotent creator have to use men to record His revelations? Why not carve the Ten Commandments onto the face of the moon and remove all doubt about their source? If anyone then chose to ignore that I'd consider it really likely they're defying God and there will be hell to pay for it.DaveScot
May 7, 2007
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Markf, my only point is that you seem to ignore your own consciousness when considering evidence for an intelligent cause to the universe. If it wasn't for my own ability to be aware, I'd be an atheist too.shaner74
May 7, 2007
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markf, you said "But, assuming you are a Christian, do you know for certain that your God is the Christian version or is it just possible, given that “nothing under the sun is certain” that God is the Muslim, Sikh, or Buddhist God or is it even just possible that none of these exist? If you accept the slightest possibility that you might be wrong in your belief - then by your own definition - you too are an agnostic." Your answer is an example of why I think atheists are weak thinkers. No one knows for sure that anything is true, so believing that God exists is an inference based on the evidence. Similarly, believing that there is no God also requires evidence. Let's examine briefly a little bit of the evidence that is mainly used for a belief in God, from science. The origin of the universe is a good one, Incredibly fine tuned to produce solar systems, planets and life. Just changes in the 30th decimal place or less of some of the constants of physics and the whole mess falls apart. Why should these laws exists? Most infer that someone designed it that way and that someone had to be incredibly intelligent. That is why the big bang is brought up by Pastore as a stumbling block for atheism. It is not just the big bang but what accompanied it. The origin of life. Not even a semblance of an idea on how it could occur. The scientists now exploring it are at the level of how to build a single brick when what they have to end up with is not only the bricks but the plans for a complete town. So the inference is that some very smart dude designed it. That is why life is brought up by Pastore. That is two for two features of nature that points to the presence of an incredibly intelligent person. I will stop there but for atheism to have any respectability it will have to find a reason why anything exists (that is the ultimate question) and why it exists with such exquisite precision. And then how this existence self assembled into even more complex phenomena. Nothing here points to the Judeo Christian God and that is outside science. So bringing it up is a sign of weakness in your position. Just what is the nature of the incredibly smart intelligences responsible for the universe and life and what is the purpose of both is the dominion of philosophy and theology. There is little in science to give us a hint. One's beliefs there are based on what I call faith and not subject to science and yes there is a large measure of uncertainty involved. But belief in a super intelligence that is behind the universe and life and consciousness is the obvious inference since there is no plausible natural phenomena that could explain it. By the way this last statement does not mean that science shouldn't study life and consciousness and how each may have arisen. It is just that no process is available that can explain how it arose other than an intelligence. The obvious inference is an intelligence; the choice of non intelligent causes is the real leap of faith. Now for you to believe in no God, you have to have evidence that infers that position or it becomes an illogical position based on some socialization process. As I said atheism is a fashion and very common in the right social circles. But don't pass it off as reason or logic.jerry
May 7, 2007
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markf: "All I am saying is that exactly the same logic can be used to show that we have no basis to dismiss the idea that the cause was a giant cockroach." Say what? This is totally wrong. And your statement is the equivalent of the FSM and invisible pink unicorns etc. nonsense. Of course stating that a roach or a FSM or whatever other material being created the material universe is ludicrous. Roaches etc. are part of this creation - not before it or outside it. Invisible pink unicorns can't exist because invisibility and being pink are contrary to laws of reflection in the electromagnetic spectrum - meaning if it's pink it reflects light and so can't be invisible. Spaghetti is a well known human invention and so goes the fate of whatever other material cause for the material universe you may invent. Thus the dummies that come up with FSM's, invisible pink creatures etc are really not very bright are they. The cause of the universe must be adequate to it's consequences. The universe displays unfathomable space, energy and also precise order. Whatever caused it must necessarily possess energy sufficient for the effect. Therefore whatever caused it must be infinite and all powerful. No atheist really believes there are effects or events with no adequate cause. They may say so but their daily actions demonstrate they really don't. People who deny cause-effect laws usually end up in the funny farm. It doesn't work in reality. But there is one other base unit in the universe that cannot be accounted for with non conscious causes - information - now viewed on equal footing with matter and energy as a fundamental unit of existence. But information does not exist without a sender, a reasoning mind. Thus, complex coded information (DNA/RNA) cannot be the result of a mindless cause. There is no such thing as coded information without mind. Period. Code implies convention, intent, semantics, translation and meaning etc.. Inanimate matter has no intent. Translation and language requires communications of meanings of symbolic units. DNA even has error correction mechanisms. But error detection can only exist where the correct model is previously known! I hope you're getting the drift here because it is devastating to materialism. The universe must have a first cause and it's nature, components and laws tell us it had to come from something like a conscious mind rather than an innate something. The universe had a first cause. It is not eternal since an eternal series of events with no first cause is a logical absurdity. Also we know it's not eternal because it is changing, slowing down. You can also use logical absolutes to demonstrate these things. Logic is a function of mind. Logical absolutes exist. Logic is metaphysical. It does not exist in matter and energy. Therefore the existence of logical absolutes powerfully infers the existence of some absolute Mind. Follow the data to it's logical conclusions and what do you end up with? - Atheism is absurd given the data.Borne
May 7, 2007
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IDist Re 47. Sorry if I missed the point. I was only addressing the logic of your argument. All I am saying is that exactly the same logic can be used to show that we have no basis to dismiss the idea that the cause was a giant cockroach. However, many of us do dismiss the idea it was a giant cockroach. Are we irrational and arrogant to do so?markf
May 7, 2007
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I find it a bit odd that a conscious being could ponder the origin of the universe and think so little about his own consciousness (doing the pondering) to not even include it as a factor in his reasoning. shaner74 I am sorry I don't understand your point. In what sense am I not including consciousness in my reasoning? I am saying there is no evidence for it. That seems to include it in my reasoning.markf
May 7, 2007
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markf You've missed the point completely. No body I've ever heard of claimed to know what God is. Religions will tell you that He is merciful, He is all powerful etc. but not WHAT He is. The common attribute that a cause must have to be God is that He is concsious, or in other words, personal. Some religions would imagine God as a giant man in the sky, others wouldn't, but they'd agree that He is personal and conscious (yes, yes I know that there are some people who doesn't believe in a personal God, but there is no point in calling that "god" at all IMO). If you imagine “a giant cockroach with magical powers” to be the cause this doesn't even touch my argument. Please note, I'm not arguing to prove God's existense, that's another issue, I'm just showing that dismissing the possibility has absolutely no basis.IDist
May 7, 2007
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“Well I can only state my position - which I would call atheist. It is that I have no reason to believe the universe was created by a conscious being.” I find it a bit odd that a conscious being could ponder the origin of the universe and think so little about his own consciousness (doing the pondering) to not even include it as a factor in his reasoning.shaner74
May 7, 2007
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Michaels7-- For full disclosure, I am the furthest thing from an athiest of agnostic. However, the comment you said was dripping with sarcasm? This one, to wit: This is just ridicule dressed up in smarmy sarcasm dripping with contempt. Truth is if there is a Creator, you would not know fully even now how the Creator would communicate with us in unseen ways or in how our entire lives might be captured into a process that allows for full review. Yes and then NO. It is a smart alec way of saying things, but the ghost in the machine metaphor and all the rest are just rehashed from men better than myself. So I used the phrase as what I commonly do in what I call a "draw out" phrase to see what people think of it. Not that I agree. I see that phrase a lot and wanted to see how it plays in Peoria, if you will. But I do not necessarily agree that God needs to be so reclusive, and that if evidence is there in the very structure of life on earth there is no iron rule that says in this manner Occam's Razor is to be violated and His existence is hidden in minutia or default findings about life. Athiests admittedly ask some good questions, once in a while, when not engaging in attack dog mode on their "search and destroy missions" on the web. One question is why is the evidence for God not more open, seeing that most everything that USED to be posited as the effects of deities like thunder and fire and chance happenings are now more easily explained via science. No one says--or would say--that an Angel Of Death killed my bacterial culure, or that the presence of numerous flies in the backyard means I am being Plagued for disobedience. Most likely I have sloppy habits or a compost pile. No I am fully aware of what the traditional answer is--or are: --God owes us nothing but what we seek. Closed minds are closed hearts at this juncture, and nothing might be known for the persistent doubter who ignores all other attributes of the world. --Faith exists on many levels, to the simple church goer to those more skeptical who need reassurance and seek out reputable science (or in the literature area, better documentation to answer queries about alleged Biblical contradictions, etc), and some people need different levels, from Church coffee/prayer meetings and simple friendship to scholarly work like that of Dr. Dembski, to bolster their faith. --And many times in life the obvious is not the real truth. RE: Crime Investigation. But Markf has a point to make. Atheists are not always dogmatic in their assertions. Some even plainly admit that while there might be a Clockwinder God, like Lord Kronos, who thumped the world on the side and got things spinning, He is not active in the everyday affairs of the world and even if HE is, His presence is not manifest in the usual products of nature. But the God of the Bible is an ACTIVE, not passive God, and micromanaged quite a bit. A lord Kronos seems more to the liking of many people exactly as it is not known either mechanically or theologically just how/when/where/if continued sustenance of the Cosmos takes even takes place. Some atheists have no problem with this because this kind of God has no real interaction with humans and His existence is either unprovable, or irrelevent. Or Both.S Wakefield Tolbert
May 7, 2007
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IDist That’s exactly my argument. You cannot rule out the possibility of a being like god creating the universe. It is still a standing option, and therefore being atheist is blind faith, while being agnostic, at this point, is more honest and reasonable IMO. Well I can only state my position - which I would call atheist. It is that I have no reason to believe the universe was created by a conscious being. I freely admit that I really have no idea if a cause is even required or what that cause could be. I also see no reason to suppose that the answer to this question should have any connection to the answer to the other puzzles. Let me point out some consequences of your argument. It is of the form 1- The cause is X 2- The cause is NOT X On what basis exactly will you rule the first option? You can substitute any property you like instead of X. Because we know nothing of the origin of the universe the argument will hold. So for example X might be "a giant cockroach with magical powers". Is it so dishonest and unreasonable to dismiss this proposal?markf
May 7, 2007
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By the way I'd like to add another big bang to the list. The Cambrian Explosion.IDist
May 7, 2007
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First - I am not sure that there needs to be anything that caused the universe. We are in such uncharted and extraordinary territory that our usual assumptions (e.g. everything must have a cause) may not apply. Indeed this may be just the kind of thing we are incapable of understanding. Well I think it's obvious that everything that begins must have a cause, if you don't agree on that then there is no point at all of claiming to be rational and scientific while accusing the believer of being the opposite. But let's ignore this point. However, let’s assume there is a cause. Then your question begins to make some sense. But it assumes a clear definition of conscious. I believe consciousness makes no sense independent of the context of animals in bodies. That's faith :) However, let’s assume that the idea of a conscious agent at the beginning of the universe makes sense. Perhaps a sort of human like agent created it. Why don’t I believe in that? Well - yes it is possible and it would be absurd to talk in terms of probabilities about such a one-off inconceivable event. But it makes no difference to anything else. It doesn’t imply worship, or morality, or anything much. It is not so much that I don’t believe it - I just don’t see the use in considering it without some evidence for it. That's exactly my argument. You cannot rule out the possibility of a being like god creating the universe. It is still a standing option, and therefore being atheist is blind faith, while being agnostic, at this point, is more honest and reasonable IMO. So even if, for the sake of the argument, the believer has no other argument in support of his position, it is not honest from an atheist to claim to be more reasonable. Since the atheist position would be something like that "Something caused the universe, I don't know what is it, but it's certainly not God." So it appears that we agree after all :D.IDist
May 7, 2007
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IDist Science tells us that the universe began to exist, thus logically speaking something caused it (unless you’d agree that something can come from nothing) The options: 1- The cause is conscious 2- The cause is NOT conscious On what basis exactly will you rule the first option? That's a very interesting argument and well expressed. Unfortunately the answer is rather complicated and I am not sure I can be so elegant. First - I am not sure that there needs to be anything that caused the universe. We are in such uncharted and extraordinary territory that our usual assumptions (e.g. everything must have a cause) may not apply. Indeed this may be just the kind of thing we are incapable of understanding. However, let's assume there is a cause. Then your question begins to make some sense. But it assumes a clear definition of conscious. I believe consciousness makes no sense independent of the context of animals in bodies. So you can see it is getting really hard to answer your simple question. However, let's assume that the idea of a conscious agent at the beginning of the universe makes sense. Perhaps a sort of human like agent created it. Why don't I believe in that? Well - yes it is possible and it would be absurd to talk in terms of probabilities about such a one-off inconceivable event. But it makes no difference to anything else. It doesn't imply worship, or morality, or anything much. It is not so much that I don't believe it - I just don't see the use in considering it without some evidence for it.markf
May 7, 2007
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Borne wrote: I’m curious. Why do go by “angryoldfatman”? I had to have a unique handle for my Youtube videos, and I wanted something memorable and descriptive. But most importantly, I wanted to preempt the predictable adolescent ad hominems I knew I'd get once I showed my face on the internet.angryoldfatman
May 7, 2007
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But, assuming you are a Christian, do you know for certain that your God is the Christian version or is it just possible, given that “nothing under the sun is certain” that God is the Muslim, Sikh, or Buddhist God or is it even just possible that none of these exist? If you accept the slightest possibility that you might be wrong in your belief - then by your own definition - you too are an agnostic. This type of argument is a justification for not believing IMO. The existence of a god doesn't mean that this god is the God of a particular religion. Many ancient philosophers believed in a god before Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. So yes, it is possible that a god exists but he didn't send any revealations. One needs to check the truth claims of each religion, atleast those which claim that they got revealation from God, that there is after-life, heaven and hell. Simply dismissing all religions on the basis that there are other religions is, well, childish IMO.IDist
May 7, 2007
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Idist - I assume that from time to time you lose something even though you are sure you know where you put it and then it turns up somewhere else? It happens to us all from time to time. I propose there is an invisible gremlin living in your house that hides things and then puts them somewhere else for you to find. That would nicely explain the mystery. I am also confident that you are sure I am wrong. How can you be so sure? Nice analogy, but misses the point. You have to determine the probabilities of the options you have inorder to rule out any of them. Why would I need to assume the existence of an invisible gremlin since I perfectly know that I forget? It's all about which is more rational to believe, and in this case, me forgeting is more rational. But, let me ask you, what if you put your keys in a place you know, then you try to find them, they aren't there! Now what are the options? 1- You forgot 2- Somebody took them 3- An invisible gremlin took them What will you do? You are justified to rule out the 3rd option, but on what basis exactly can you rule out the second? You simply don't know, and there is nothing impossible or improbable in somebody taking the keys (even if you're living alone, maybe a theif :D?) --- Now let's go to the origin of the universe. Science tells us that the universe began to exist, thus logically speaking something caused it (unless you'd agree that something can come from nothing) The options: 1- The cause is conscious 2- The cause is NOT conscious On what basis exactly will you rule the first option? Have you seen universes being created many times by unconscious causes that you believe that it's extremelly more probable to the extent that it rules out Conscious Cause? I myself haven't seen any universe being created. Therefore, at this point, other arguments aside, one cannot rule out any of the two possibilites IMO.IDist
May 7, 2007
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Jerry Your wrote There is nothing under the sun that is sure even the meaning of the word “is” or that the sun will rise that tomorrow. So your approach is a specious one since anyone, anywhere at any time can claim they do not know for sure. By the way the proper word for not being sure about creation would be agnostic. Atheism is an affirmation not a bewilderment. I think you misrepresent atheism - at least my version. I don't believe there is a God, but that doesn't mean I have incontravertible proof that there isn't a God. You can call that agnosticism if you like. It is the same position as Richard Dawkins. But, assuming you are a Christian, do you know for certain that your God is the Christian version or is it just possible, given that "nothing under the sun is certain" that God is the Muslim, Sikh, or Buddhist God or is it even just possible that none of these exist? If you accept the slightest possibility that you might be wrong in your belief - then by your own definition - you too are an agnostic.markf
May 7, 2007
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Jack I had to recover your latest comment from the Akismet spam queue too. At this point I don't think any moderators are doing it manually. I also checked to see if "krebs" or "sunflower" by themselves were blacklisted words and they aren't. If it were a moderator doing it manually one comment at a time you'd also notice your comment appearing right away then disappearing some time later. If Akismet is flagging it as potential spam it doesn't appear unless explicitly approved. I apologize for any inconvenience. I emptied the spam queue a couple times knowing it contained some of your comments. Since they weren't my threads I assumed the thread owner did it and didn't recover them. I'm sure you know that you've earned my respect as a polite and thoughtful member of the loyal opposition and thus you have my full support in having a free voice here. Fortunately and for reasons unknown to me legitimate spam volume has greatly decreased in the past week or three. I'll de-spam your comments as a matter of course until someone either objects or the spam volume increases so much as to make reviewing it all impractical again. Theoretically Akismet "learns" from our de-spam feedback and will stop classifying them as spam when it receives enough notices from us that your comments aren't spam. Again I offer my apology but Akismet is indespensible to us as without it the commentary would be 90% unwanted advertisements.DaveScot
May 7, 2007
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markf, There is nothing under the sun that is sure even the meaning of the word "is" or that the sun will rise tomorrow. So your approach is a specious one since anyone, anywhere at any time can claim they do not know for sure. By the way the proper word for not being sure about creation would be agnostic. Atheism is an affirmation not a bewilderment. Atheism is a cop out and like the latest fashion, smart to wear with the right crowd. As I said above I have found few atheists who are consistent thinkers. That does not mean non atheists are since I have found many of them inconsistent also.jerry
May 7, 2007
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IDist You wrote Atheists always claim to be reasonable and scientific, yet on what basis are they so SURE that there is no God when such great gaps in our knowledge exist? On what basis do they rule out the existence of a god? Couldn’t it be that a god(s) really exist and are really the causes of these points? One can dismiss that as “God-of-the-gaps” argument, but how can you know that a god doesn’t exist in these gaps? No way to know. Idist - I assume that from time to time you lose something even though you are sure you know where you put it and then it turns up somewhere else? It happens to us all from time to time. I propose there is an invisible gremlin living in your house that hides things and then puts them somewhere else for you to find. That would nicely explain the mystery. I am also confident that you are sure I am wrong. How can you be so sure?markf
May 7, 2007
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angyoldfatman: Thanks for your kind comments. I'm curious. Why do go by "angryoldfatman"?Borne
May 7, 2007
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S Wakefield Tolbert: Babinski is a guy that blows a lot of hot air for nothing. He persistently attacks minor details and never actually proves or disproves anything more than his own misguided thinking. I just visited his blog (again) and went through some of his critiques of CS Lewis. IMO, he can't hold a candle to Lewis and has done strictly nothing at undoing anything Lewis wrote on morality. There is no way out. Either there are moral absolutes, logical absolutes, a real Right and a real Wrong or there are not. If there are not then all our discussions are useless and all law is mere tyranny. If there is no objective morality then there is nothing truly right and nothing truly wrong. A position quite often taken by atheist philosophers. But if that is true then nothing in the world makes any sense at all and there is no use looking for sense either since we have relegated sense itself out of existence. It perpetually amazes me to find people who believe that they or someone else has undone Lewis' age old defense of natural Law or Moral Law. Yet the very attempt to do so implies Moral Law since there would be no use trying to prove Lewis wrong if there really is no right or wrong. Thus by the very attempt to prove there are no moral absolutes they actually show that they really believe there are!!?? Therein lies the inherent idiocy of relativism. Go figure.Borne
May 7, 2007
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Thanks Dave. At this point this thread is too far along for me to get involved, and hopefully next time I post the spam filter won't get in the way.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2007
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08:29 AM
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Borne, excellent post! So real atheism cannot logically exist in a well reasoning mind. Sooner or later the inherent contradictions become conscious. [A] little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion - Francis Bacon, founder of the scientific method. Atheism is founded upon nothing more than a wish that there be no God. (crucify Him! it says, but in milder terms.) Indeed, it is a prelude to acceptance of The Big Lie - "Ye shall be as gods". Someone said, “A disbelief in God does not result in a belief in nothing; disbelief in God usually results in a belief in anything.” I love to pull these links out whenever someone equates Christianity (and by proxy Judaism) with superstition and atheism with rational, educated rejection of the supernatural: Does education fuel paranormal beliefs? - Surveys indicate that more years in college leads to less skepticism NHS doctor 'told patient she was possessed by evil' - a doctor licensed by a national secular medical system becomes enthralled with shamanism and prescribes exorcisms. Thanks again for the great post, Borne.angryoldfatman
May 7, 2007
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IDist, regarding the Origin of Life problem, atheist need to be honest. They don't have a clue. All speculation aside, RNA world, etc. "Irreducibly Complex and needs many many parts and systems to be there at once." Exactly, all those parts when not together, are non-living. Rather an obvious statement, but life from life is true. The repetitive theme that life spontaneously erupted over "long periods of time" with all the right circumstances is balderdash. It contains a partial truth with an obvious omission of sin. a) Part truth: All the right circumstances must exist for life. b) Part lie/Sin: it is a lie to say we know all the right circumstances existed by accident and then after billions of year, voila. Scientist cannot reproduce life randomly within the lab, let alone in nature. Without cellular walls to protect the processes internally, nothing happens. They want us to believe that life laid dormant, then voila, appeared after the right circumstances came together. If life did not need cellular arrangement of protection in the first place, why develop it later? So, they're left with square one, life came from outer space. But then where did that life come from? Both sides can invoke infinite regression. The cell walls had to exist to protect the enzymes, proteins, rna, etc., even if they were transported here. It is a wild stretch of the imagination without any evidence or satisfactory experimentation to tell a story that these complex forms evolved as oxygen and the atmosphere evolved. Complete, utter, witchdoctoring tales. We might as well shake a stick at the moon with such gobbledy gook. Since Lucy has now waved goodbye and lept about knuckle dragging on all fours, no longer to be found in the clever story-telling picture chain from chimp to man, not only is their a problem with origins, there is a larger so-called gap on the way to music-making, art-drawing, medicine-healing, space-wondering bipeds. Whatever floats your boat, just stop trying to force down my throat. And yes, contempt is held for Dawkins and crew, but like a good ole country song has said, time can change a man. So even Dawkins is in our prayers. And it is much easier for Dawkins to accept a Creator if he looks deep in his heart where he knows the truth, than scientist to prove molecules to man RM evolution. Because in the end, it will take math, science, computers, etc., for us to do the same, to create life whereby it can adapt, feed(energy), grow and reproduce on another planet along with terraforming the surface and atmosphere along with the right sun and solar system in the right galaxy, in the right cluster, in the right universe. Sure, no problem at all. By the time we can do that, we ourselves would be considered as gods to our creation.Michaels7
May 7, 2007
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I'm not sure what the deal is, Jack. You're not on any moderation list but I found several of your comments today and yesterday in the spam filter. They may have been manually marked as spam by a moderator or Akismet for some reason thinks they were spam.DaveScot
May 7, 2007
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To the moderators: just checking in. Seems that my posting privileges have been removed. Would someone please explain, or at least verify if this is true. Thanks, Jack jkrebs@sunflower.comJack Krebs
May 7, 2007
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