Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Credulity of those Posing as the Champions of Science

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

This post is NOT about global warming.  It is about the credulity of some religious fanatics who, ironically, pose as paragons of scientific skepticism.  Global warming alarmists often call skeptics of global warming alarmism “science deniers.”  The idea seems to be that the alarmists are the sober-minded champions of dispassionate science, and the skeptics are benighted opponents of scientific endeavor.

The reality is, of course, oftentimes just the opposite, as a recent exchange with wd400 illustrates.

In a previous post I noted how the recent “2014 Warmest Year on Record” headlines were almost certainly false.  The alleged record consisted of a .02C increase when the margin of error of the measurement was 0.1C.  In other words, the alleged increase was a small fraction of the margin of error, and the NASA director now says there was only a 38 per cent chance that his press release was correct.

Wd400 picked up on the following sentence from the post:

Global warming: The only area of science where researchers report as absolute fact claims that are almost certainly not true.

And the following exchange occurred:

wd400

62% is “almost certainly” and you are accusing others of being fast and loose with numbers?

BA

So you admit that it is overwhelmingly false; just not certainly false. And that makes you feel better?

wd400

I don’t even know what “overwhelmingly false” means, something is true or it a’int. Evidence might overwhelming support a hypothesis, but are you really trying to say a probability of 62% is “overwhelming” in addition to “almost certain”?

Well, wd, let me see if I can help you out.  First, the entire context of the discussion was the probability of the NASA report being false.  In that context “overwhelmingly false” is obviously shorthand for “an overwhelming probability of being false.”

And yes, ontologically speaking, something is true or it is not true.  Either 2014 was the warmest year on record or it was not.  But this is not an ontological issue.  It is an epistemological issue.  As in many scientific endeavors we cannot know with certainty.  That is why many scientific conclusions are cast in terms of probability, i.e., “there is a 97% chance that X is true.”  That is why the field of statistics was developed to begin with.  The issue, therefore, is about the confidence with which we can say 2014 was the warmest year on record, and it turns out that we cannot make that assertion with any confidence. We now know the statement is probably false.

And speaking of statistics, historically the threshold for scientific assertion was 95% probability.  In other words, a scientist worried about his reputation would not assert anything as scientific fact if there were even a 5.1% chance that he was wrong.

Well, of course, that all got thrown out the window with global warming hucksterism such as that demonstrated by the NASA report.  There NASA asserted as fact a proposition that had a 62% probability of being false.  In other words, NASA threw scientific standards out the window.  If 5% is a historically acceptable margin, NASA accepted a margin that was 12.4 times greater.

WD suggested I was playing “fast and loose” with the terms “almost certainly” and “overwhelmingly.”  Well, those words are relative.  In this case they are relative to the historically accepted scientific confidence levels, and in comparison to those levels the terms I used are perfectly appropriate.

Now that we have that cleared up, let’s go on to discuss the larger issue – wd400’s credulity.  His comments seem to suggest something like “there is only a 62% chance that the ‘2014 was the warmest year’ assertion was false; therefore the phrases ‘overwhelmingly false’ and ‘almost certainly false’ are exaggerations.”

To which I would say, what is your point?  You are the one who says he is on the side of science.  Scientists always say it is important to be skeptical, to insist on high standards of proof for scientific assertions.  That is why we have a confidence margin (95%) that is so high in the first place.

What does it say about you that you quibble with the words “overwhelming” and “almost false” when a claim falls short of that margin by a factor of 12.4X?  It says that the science is not important to you.  It says that your blind leap in the dark religious faith is comfortable accepting any assertion as scientific fact – even if that assertion is probably false – if the assertion is consonant with your faith commitments.  And that, coming from someone who claims to be on the side of science, is truly ironic.

Comments
Mark, You and I have been discussing one issue here and nothing else. Was there undue alarmism over global cooling in the 1970's? The clear answer is yes. When you deny facts in evidence, I have to assume that you do so because you want to. You are entitled to your opinion that the frenzy of 1970's global cooling was less intense than global warming scam of today, but you are not entitled to your own facts. What happened is on the record. To deny it is to lose credibility.StephenB
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
SB
Naturally, you would like to forget what the climatologists were saying at the time. Of course, you want to dismiss all those exhortations to stockpile food, divert rivers, and melt the Arctic ice cap.
You are indulging in one of your favourite habits of telling people what their motives are. As it happens I would be delighted if the sceptical case was sound . It would be great to know there was no problem. I was mildly sceptical myself for a time but reluctantly had to accept the evidence and the weight of expertise. (This was given a considerable push by my house flooding last year.)Mark Frank
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PDT
SB #76
when he claimed that only 3 or 4 articles on global cooling existed
Please can you indicate where he wrote that or something that implies that only 3 or 4 articles on global cooling existed. Additional edit. goodusername deserves credit because he was answering the key question - how does the global cooling alarm in the 1970s compared to the growing global warming alarm of the last 40 years? Of course he had almost no time and resources so it doesn't qualify for publication - so I guess I should have written something like - "nice work given the time available" rather than "good research".Mark Frank
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
100 articles over a decade is only an average of 10 a year from sources all round the world including some very obscure sources (but none of them scientific journals or papers).
Well, we are certainly changing our tune, aren't we? Just yesterday, you thought that goodusername had done a good job of researching the subject when he claimed that only 3 or 4 articles on global cooling existed. Without hesitation, you signed on to that error. Now, after having been apprised of better facts, you want to dismiss 100 articles over ten years as a blip in 1970. So, for you, goodusername's erroneous report is "good research" while the historical facts presented by Ralph David Westfall and myself are examples of what? -- bad research? On the contrary, we provided evidence that the alarmism was sustained for at least 10 years. It was not, as you would have it, just a "blip" in 1970. Naturally, you would like to forget what the climatologists were saying at the time. Of course, you want to dismiss all those exhortations to stockpile food, divert rivers, and melt the Arctic ice cap. Predictably, you want to deny all those complaints against government leaders for not taking action. For you, it didn't happen.StephenB
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
05:24 AM
5
05
24
AM
PDT
#71 RDW Thanks for the links. I don’t think the parallel with 1984 works at all. Gwynne gives a very candid account of what happened and how the story got over-stated for Newsweek. There is no question of pretending the story didn’t happen as in 1984. How comparable was this to current concern about global warming? Quoting a few articles doesn’t prove much.  100 articles over a decade is only an average of 10 a year from sources all round the world including some very obscure sources (but none of them scientific journals or papers).  It is quite interesting to see how a quote such as that from Lamb in the mid-70s can get blown up and regurgitated in difference places even before the Internet. We all know that the press likes to make the most of any vaguely alarmist story it hears, particularly if it can find a sciency aspect – just look at all the different diets and causes of cancer. Yes there was a small alarmist blip in 1970 but it is not remotely comparable to the global warming/climate change research which has been going on intensely across the scientific community for decades and has steadily converted sceptical scientists (Do you know of any qualified scientist who converted to scepticism).  The reference I gave covers the key points: * The level of scientific knowledge about the climate was minimal. At the time they were time they unable to compare the forcing due to greenhouse gases with cooling due to pollutants.  Decades of research means they can now be quantified and greenhouse gases is much the larger forcing. * Much of it was muddled with the fact that one day we will slip into another ice age (perfectly true)– but we are talking about completely different timescales. * The scientific papers of the time recognised this uncertainty and made very few predictions (although some scientists did)Mark Frank
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
04:04 AM
4
04
04
AM
PDT
Keeling and Plass were studying carbon dioxide cycles already in the 1950s. Concern about the steadily growing imbalance caused by anthropogenic CO2 increased among climatologists in the 1960s/1970s; it is reflected in many publications and conference papers produced during those decades. To be sure, others were of the opinion that dust pollutions had the opposite effect, outweighing the greenhouse effect and leading to a global cooling. They were soon proved to be wrong: the mean temperature has risen by about 0.7°C since then. Also the reasons for periodic "warming pauses" despite growing CO2 concentrations had been recognised by that time. Here's what an NRC report predicted in 1979:
Our estimates of the rates of vertical exchange of mass between the mixed and intermediate layers and the volumes of water involved give a delay of the order of decades in the time at which thermal equilibrium will be reached. This delay implies that the actual warming at any given time will be appreciably less than that calculated on the assumption that thermal equilibrium is reached quickly. One consequence may be that perceptible temperature changes may not become apparent nearly so soon as has been anticipated. We may not be given a warning until the C02 loading is such that an appreciable climate change is inevitable. The equilibrium warming will eventually occur; it will merely have been postponed. ... To summarize we have tried but have been unable to find any overlooked or underestimated physical effects that could reduce the currently estimated global warmings due to a doubling of atmospheric C02 to negligible proportions or reverse them altogether.
(Carbon dioxide and climate: A scientific assessment, pp. 2-3)Piotr
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
03:46 AM
3
03
46
AM
PDT
goodusername Mark Frank, You guys are just too funny. Thank you for confirming my point: Religious "skeptics" will believe almost anything. The 1970's Global Cooling Alarmism was real and is on the record. goodusername
Eventually I gave up trying to find such articles on my own and tried web searches, and discovered there were some articles on global warming in the journals of Science and Nature, and so looked some of those up.
Hilarious! Begin here: 1970 – Colder Winters Held Dawn of New Ice Age – Scientists See Ice Age In the Future (The Washington Post, January 11, 1970) 1970 – Is Mankind Manufacturing a New Ice Age for Itself? (L.A. Times, January 15, 1970) 1970 – New Ice Age May Descend On Man (Sumter Daily Item, January 26, 1970) 1970 – Pollution Prospect A Chilling One (Owosso Argus-Press, January 26, 1970) 1970 – Pollution’s 2-way ‘Freeze’ On Society (Middlesboro Daily News, January 28, 1970) 1970 – Cold Facts About Pollution (The Southeast Missourian, January 29, 1970) 1970 – Pollution Could Cause Ice Age, Agency Reports (St. Petersburg Times, March 4, 1970) 1970 – Pollution Called Ice Age Threat (St. Petersburg Times, June 26, 1970) 1970 – Dirt Will .Bring New Ice Age (The Sydney Morning Herald, October 19, 1970) 1971 – Ice Age Refugee Dies Underground (The Montreal Gazette, Febuary 17, 1971) 1971 – U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming (The Washington Post, July 9, 1971) 1971 – Ice Age Around the Corner (Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1971) 1971 – New Ice Age Coming – It’s Already Getting Colder (L.A. Times, October 24, 1971) 1971 – Another Ice Age? Pollution Blocking Sunlight (The Day, November 1, 1971) 1971 – Air Pollution Could Bring An Ice Age (Harlan Daily Enterprise, November 4, 1971) 1972 – Air pollution may cause ice age (Free-Lance Star, February 3, 1972) 1972 – Scientist Says New ice Age Coming (The Ledger, February 13, 1972) 1972 – Scientist predicts new ice age (Free-Lance Star, September 11, 1972) 1972 – British expert on Climate Change says Says New Ice Age Creeping Over Northern Hemisphere (Lewiston Evening Journal, September 11, 1972) 1972 – Climate Seen Cooling For Return Of Ice Age (Portsmouth Times, ?September 11, 1972?) 1972 – New Ice Age Slipping Over North (Press-Courier, September 11, 1972) 1972 – Ice Age Begins A New Assault In North (The Age, September 12, 1972) 1972 – Weather To Get Colder (Montreal Gazette, ?September 12, 1972?) 1972 – British climate expert predicts new Ice Age (The Christian Science Monitor, September 23, 1972) 1972 – Scientist Sees Chilling Signs of New Ice Age (L.A. Times, September 24, 1972) 1972 – Science: Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, November 13, 1972) 1973 – The Ice Age Cometh (The Saturday Review, March 24, 1973) 1973 – Weather-watchers think another ice age may be on the way (The Christian Science Monitor, December 11, 1973) 1974 – New evidence indicates ice age here (Eugene Register-Guard, May 29, 1974) 1974 – Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, June 24, 1974) 1974 – 2 Scientists Think ‘Little’ Ice Age Near (The Hartford Courant, August 11, 1974) 1974 – Ice Age, worse food crisis seen (The Chicago Tribune, October 30, 1974) 1974 – Believes Pollution Could Bring On Ice Age (Ludington Daily News, December 4, 1974) 1974 – Pollution Could Spur Ice Age, Nasa Says (Beaver Country Times, ?December 4, 1974?) 1974 – Air Pollution May Trigger Ice Age, Scientists Feel (The Telegraph, ?December 5, 1974?) 1974 – More Air Pollution Could Trigger Ice Age Disaster (Daily Sentinel – ?December 5, 1974?) 1974 – Scientists Fear Smog Could Cause Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 5, 1974) 1975 – Climate Changes Called Ominous (The New York Times, January 19, 1975) 1975 – Climate Change: Chilling Possibilities (Science News, March 1, 1975) 1975 – B-r-r-r-r: New Ice Age on way soon? (The Chicago Tribune, March 2, 1975) 1975 – Cooling Trends Arouse Fear That New Ice Age Coming (Eugene Register-Guard, ?March 2, 1975?) 1975 – Is Another Ice Age Due? Arctic Ice Expands In Last Decade (Youngstown Vindicator – ?March 2, 1975?) 1975 – Is Earth Headed For Another Ice Age? (Reading Eagle, March 2, 1975) 1975 – New Ice Age Dawning? Significant Shift In Climate Seen (Times Daily, ?March 2, 1975?) 1975 – There’s Troublesome Weather Ahead (Tri City Herald, ?March 2, 1975?) 1975 – Is Earth Doomed To Live Through Another Ice Age? (The Robesonian, ?March 3, 1975?) 1975 – The Ice Age cometh: the system that controls our climate (The Chicago Tribune, April 13, 1975) 1975 – The Cooling World (Newsweek, April 28, 1975) 1975 – Scientists Ask Why World Climate Is Changing; Major Cooling May Be Ahead (PDF) (The New York Times, May 21, 1975) 1975 – In the Grip of a New Ice Age? (International Wildlife, July-August, 1975) 1975 – Oil Spill Could Cause New Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 11, 1975) 1976 – The Cooling: Has the Next Ice Age Already Begun? [Book] (Lowell Ponte, 1976) 1977 – Blizzard – What Happens if it Doesn’t Stop? [Book] (George Stone, 1977) 1977 – The Weather Conspiracy: The Coming of the New Ice Age [Book] (The Impact Team, 1977) 1976 – Worrisome CIA Report; Even U.S. Farms May be Hit by Cooling Trend (U.S. News & World Report, May 31, 1976) 1977 – The Big Freeze (Time Magazine, January 31, 1977) 1977 – We Will Freeze in the Dark (Capital Cities Communications Documentary, Host: Nancy Dickerson, April 12, 1977) 1978 – The New Ice Age [Book] (Henry Gilfond, 1978) 1978 – Little Ice Age: Severe winters and cool summers ahead (Calgary Herald, January 10, 1978) 1978 – Winters Will Get Colder, ‘we’re Entering Little Ice Age’ (Ellensburg Daily Record, January 10, 1978) 1978 – Geologist Says Winters Getting Colder (Middlesboro Daily News, January 16, 1978) 1978 – It’s Going To Get Colder (Boca Raton News, ?January 17, 1978?) 1978 – Believe new ice age is coming (The Bryan Times, March 31, 1978) 1978 – The Coming Ice Age (In Search Of TV Show, Season 2, Episode 23, Host: Leonard Nimoy, May 1978) 1978 – An Ice Age Is Coming Weather Expert Fears (Milwaukee Sentinel, November 17, 1978) 1979 – A Choice of Catastrophes – The Disasters That Threaten Our World [Book] (Isaac Asimov, 1979) 1979 – Get Ready to Freeze (Spokane Daily Chronicle, October 12, 1979) 1979 – New ice age almost upon us? (The Christian Science Monitor, November 14, Mark Frank
I was very much around and aware in the 70s and can verify that the global cooling thing was a non-event.
Perhaps you were in a frozen chamber. I was also around at that time, and I can verify that it was quite the event. Every major climate organization endorsed the ice age scare, including NCAR, CRU, NAS, NASA, and CIA.StephenB
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
03:39 AM
3
03
39
AM
PDT
I didn't realize I would have to post a comment before the preview and edit function become available. see here</a I haven't posted a hyperlink at UcD before but it seems to be working even if it is not 100% correct. Guess I have a terminator that shouldn't be there. I use a format template that I use at another forum. I found the template shown here somewhat confusing. Think the problem is me... I've had so much trouble getting the job done so my personal comment never got written. But the link speaks for itself.Cabal
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
03:22 AM
3
03
22
AM
PDT
@Mark Frank #68: "I thought this particular canard had been well and truly buried but I guess it will never go away." Here are a couple more articles claiming that the 1970s upcoming-ice-age stories really didn't really mean what they were actually saying back then: Newsweek Rewind: Debunking Global Cooling How the 'Global Cooling' Story Came to Be Does anyone notice the parallels with Orwell's 1984: "Winston Smith ... who works for the Ministry of Truth (or Minitrue), which is responsible for propaganda and historical revisionism. His job is to rewrite past newspaper articles, so that the historical record always supports the party line." For reference, here are some articles in quite reputable magazines back then: Time: Another Ice Age? Note the pronounced similarities in tone in the first paragraph quoted below, as well as the remainder of the article, with current alarmist narratives: "In Africa, drought continues for the sixth consecutive year, adding terribly to the toll of famine victims. During 1972 record rains in parts of the U.S., Pakistan and Japan caused some of the worst flooding in centuries. In Canada's wheat belt, a particularly chilly and rainy spring has delayed planting and may well bring a disappointingly small harvest. Rainy Britain, on the other hand, has suffered from uncharacteristic dry spells the past few springs. A series of unusually cold winters has gripped the American Far West, while New England and northern Europe have recently experienced the mildest winters within anyone's recollection." Newsweek: The Cooling World. Note again the parallels with the current narrative in the last paragraph: "Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects. They concede that some of the more spectacular solutions proposed, such as melting the Arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers, might create problems far greater than those they solve. But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies. The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality." Saturday Review: The Ice Age Cometh, first paragraph: "This January the temperature in the country's heartland seemed colder than anyone could recall, aggravating an already chronic fuel shortage. Schools closed in Denver, factories shut down in the Midwest, and thousands of workers were laid off as fuel supplies ran out. The suspicion that winters simply are getting colder is no longer merely a suspicion among climatologists. Over the last 30 years permanent snow on Baffin Island has expanded. Pack ice around Iceland in the winter is increasing and becoming a serious hazard to naviga-tion. Warmth-loving armadillos that migrated northward into the Midwest in the first half of this century are now retreating southward toward Texas and Oklahoma. Russian crop failures are on the increase." Also see the 1970s Global Cooling Alarmism compilation of newspaper and magazine stories. Canard? Really?RalphDavidWestfall
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
02:09 AM
2
02
09
AM
PDT
Is the earth getting warmer? Ice sheet receedig north makes oil industry in Norway happy by opening up new aras accesible for oil exploration. And the environmentalists unhappy. 2014 hottest year ever recorded in Norway. This January the funniest winter I've ever seen. Recent news item: Sub-glacial lakes in Greenland suddenly releasing huge amounts of water. (A)GW denialists should squeeze the lemon while (and if) there's any juice left, it may soon be a very dry lemon.Cabal
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
01:39 AM
1
01
39
AM
PDT
The Daily Mail is awful. When you read the story is uses phrases such as: "it emerged that GISS’s analysis is subject to a margin of error" "Gavin Schmidt has now admitted Nasa thinks the likelihood that 2014 was the warmest year since 1880 is just 38 per cent" Thus giving the impression that the margin and probability were guilty secrets that only emerged after investigation. In fact Schmidt explained all about the margin and the probability at the press briefing on the same day as the press release (a press briefing that presumably the Daily Mail could not be bothered to attend). If this was a cover up it has to be the one of the most inept ever conceived.Mark Frank
January 24, 2015
January
01
Jan
24
24
2015
12:26 AM
12
12
26
AM
PDT
#61 goodusername A nice piece of research. I was very much around and aware in the 70s and can verify that the global cooling thing was a non-event. It is only remembered because climate sceptics have kept on bringing it up. I thought this particular canard had been well and truly buried but I guess it will never go away. A detailed refutation written 9 years agois here.Mark Frank
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
It's kind of entertaining to see all the jumps and shifts. I suspect that the people who have been commenting on my posts (@31 and especially @56) have had a lot of experience playing dodge ball. For the record, I was just addressing the credibility of the claim that 2014 was the hottest year on record. I was NOT talking about whether 2014 was a better bet than some specific other year or some subset of other years. I was NOT talking about whether the earth had warmed in the recent past or not. And as for changing the odds (@64), isn't that kind of like deflating footballs?RalphDavidWestfall
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
10:30 PM
10
10
30
PM
PDT
Barry I am not an idiot. Barry I never said 'denialism' I said 'victimhood'. I said this because there is a tendency in the US for powerful groups to claim they are under fierce attack; Christianity for example, or the voices of those who deny evolution or global warming. To all these groups listen, you are a majority, not an attacked minority, that is the reason it is so hard for scientists to crack this intransigence. Also, let's say you are right and global warming is a myth. An absurd belief, but let us let it play. Tell me, what is wrong with eliminating fossil fuels? Do you deny the air will improve? Do you deny that digging up 'tar sands' is incredibly dirty? Do you deny that watersheads would improve? Do you deny that forcing powerful oil companies to reallocate their resources and research toward a sustainable model is good? Do you deny that zero reliance on the wonderful, balanced, and entirely rational Middle East, would be a good? Do you deny reliance on eighteenth century 'internal combustion engine' technology needs to be consigned to the scrap heap; we can do better? If you deny these points, that is known as 'denialism'. Really Barry, even if the 'global warming alarmists' are alarmists, I would still prefer their clean green world to your coal soot nonsense. Pav, perhaps the most absurd and childish thing I have read since visiting this site yesterday. It appears 'absurdity' levels are on the rise. UD Editors: rvb8, zealots such as yourself never understand that every economic decision involves a tradeoff. Yes, we can eliminate all fossil fuels tomorrow, at the cost of impoverishing billions.rvb8
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
10:12 PM
10
10
12
PM
PDT
Los Angeles California: Friday, January 23, 2015: 7:00 AM Temperature= 63 F 8:00 AM Temperature= 65 F (the hottest hour ever recorded today) 9:00 AM Temperature= 67 F (the hottest hour ever recorded today) 10:00 AM Temperature= 69 F (the hottest hour ever recorded today) 11:00 AM Temperature =71 F (the hottest hour ever recorded today) 12:00 AM Temperature= 71.5 F (the hottest hour ever recorded today) 1:00 PM Temperature= 72 F (the hottest hour ever recorded today) | | | | 6:00 PM Temperature= 69 F (fifth consecutive hour in which temperature has dropped. An ice age may be coming)PaV
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
08:40 PM
8
08
40
PM
PDT
It depends on the odds. If LH's for RNG example had the corresponding odds of 4:1 then 2014 has positive expected value at payout. The odds of the sum of two dice are maximal at 7 (1 out of 6 times) a bad bet in isolation but the best bet if you have to pick a number.DesignDetectiveDave
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
08:06 PM
8
08
06
PM
PDT
LH @ 60:
Oh, good point–if we were betting on the output of an RNG . . .
Sigh. You are betting on a binary function. Yes/No Either 2014 was the warmest year or it was not. You get a 38% change of being right. RDW gets a 68%. He's willing to bet you as many times as you want. Still think it's a decent bet?Barry Arrington
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
07:02 PM
7
07
02
PM
PDT
LH @ 57.
Why did you cut off the rest of the sentence?
Because the rest of the sentence was not ironic. Try to keep up.
I don’t believe that “only someone with a character flaw can possibly disagree” with me.
Then why do you constantly launch character attacks at those who disagree with you. You are both a liar and a hypocrite. Barry Arrington
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
06:56 PM
6
06
56
PM
PDT
StephenB, The 1970s were a bit before my time, but I so often heard that "global cooling concerns in the mid 70s were just like global warming concerns today" or the like, that I became curious and went through a bunch of 1970s publications to see what they said. If what they were saying was remotely true I figured it'd be easy to find articles on global cooling. I picked up a couple Scientific Americans from the period, and was surprised to find nothing on global cooling. I eventually ended up going through several years of Sci Amer, and still nothing. Funny thing is I DID occassionally find an article warning of global warming! (Although not nearly as frequently as one would looking at the publications from the past 30+ years.) I also went through years of Discover mag and Nat Geo, and nothing on global cooling, but again found articles warning of global warming. Eventually I gave up trying to find such articles on my own and tried web searches, and discovered there were some articles on global warming in the journals of Science and Nature, and so looked some of those up. I found that the number of articles on global cooling were only a fraction of those on global warming. Most of the global cooling articles mentioned that there has been a cooling trend at the time - something which no one disputes - and that the cooling trend is most likely due to increased aerosels in the air, which is bucking what would otherwise likely be a warming trend from increased CO2. (I'm pretty sure that this is still the leading theory for the cooling.) Of course, the famous articles that always come up with such web searches are the Times article and the one page article in Newsweek (I'm surprised you didn't mention the NYT article, that one usually comes next after the Time and Newsweek articles.)
Ah, but the trend grew stale after a few years, so another idea popped into these liberal skulls full of mush. Why not give the crisis a new theme: How about Global Warming?
I'm not sure how serious that was meant to be, but concerns about global warming pre-date the 1970s, and even during the "heydey" of the global cooling worries the far bigger worry was still global warming.goodusername
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
06:22 PM
6
06
22
PM
PDT
Oh, good point--if we were betting on the output of an RNG that was equally likely to produce one of four or more numbers, knowing that a particular result was 38% likely would make that number a good bet. So, i.e., if the RNG is going to randomly pick 1, 2, 3, or 4, and I know that 1 is 38% likely, that's actually a pretty decent bet. And it gets better as the field gets bigger; if the RNG ranges from 1-100 and know that 1 is 38% likely, that's a great bet.Learned Hand
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
RalphDavidWestfall: Here’s a money-making opportunity for all the commenters who think that a 38% chance of being true equals true. If you were to place bets on the year with the highest temperature, you would bet on 2014. It's very likely (90%) the Earth’s surface has warmed over the past 18 years, and it is extremely likely (95%) that it has warmed over the past 20 years.Zachriel
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
Here’s a money-making opportunity for all the commenters who think that a 38% chance of being true equals true. I don't think anyone has claimed this. Edit: well, at least no commenters here.Learned Hand
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
12:46 PM
12
12
46
PM
PDT
Because I’d hate to be the kind of person who just flings slurs . . .
Truly ironic coming from someone who, based on the evidence of dozens of comments, seems truly and genuinely to believe that only someone with a character flaw can possibly disagree with him.
Why did you cut off the rest of the sentence? If you aren't proud of calling people idiot, asshat, credulous, and fascist, then you could handle it by being more polite. Or as you said, "go forth and do better." I don't believe that "only someone with a character flaw can possibly disagree" with me. As I've explained at length and in detail just above, I think people generally disagree with one another for all sorts of good reasons, even when the disagreements are ugly and the truth is apparently one-sided. StephenB is a good example. He and I seem to find it very easy to disagree with one another. I find all sorts of fault with his arguments and his beliefs, as he does with mine. But that's not a character flaw, it's just disagreement. Consequently, even though I get frustrated sometimes (and possibly him too, although I can't speak for him) we generally have pretty civil and reasonable conversations. I'm always interested in improving my communication and character, though. If you'd cite some of those "dozens of comments" I'd be interested in seeing how I gave you this mistaken impression, and correcting it if possible. I think you might be projecting. I'm sure you have calm, civil, respectful conversations in real life all the time. But that guy doesn't show up at Uncommon Descent; the Barry who logs in here calls people "idiot" and credulous zealot fools. I don't think I've ever seen you have a civil, respectful back-and-forth conversation with a critic here. I'd feel pretty comfortable showing someone this thread and saying, "This is me, or at least how I think of myself." Would you say the same? I'm honestly curious.Learned Hand
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PDT
Here's a money-making opportunity for all the commenters who think that a 38% chance of being true equals true. Let's play a game using this true random number source using the default range of 1 to 100. Whenever the resulting number is between 1 and 38, I pay you $1. Otherwise you pay me $1. We could set it up in an online conference. Deal? Note the parallel with the hottest year on record statement: 38% chance of hottest year = hottest year 38% of winning = you will make money BTW according to the Daily Mail article the temperature of the hottest year on record was estimated at only 0.02 degrees Centigrade hotter than in 2010, which makes the claim look absurd in itself. And the margin of error was approximately 0.10 degrees, which compounds the absurdity. Have you ever heard the expression, "grasping at straws?"RalphDavidWestfall
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
12:27 PM
12
12
27
PM
PDT
The very history of the movement exposes the global warming scam for what it is. Or, should I say global cooling? That's right. In 1974, The U.S. National Academy of Sciences wrote an artical entitled, "Understanding Climate Change: A Program for Action". The report stated the average surface air temperature in the northern hemisphere was decreasing. Time magazine speculated that we might be entering into an "Ice age." It was time to prepare and we couldn't start too soon. Newsweek magazine warned about "The Cooling World," pointing to "ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change." Meteorologists, we were told just couldn't keep up with it. Ah, but the trend grew stale after a few years, so another idea popped into these liberal skulls full of mush. Why not give the crisis a new theme: How about Global Warming? If they could use cold winters to sell the old plan, why not use hot summers to sell the new one. Incredibly, some of the same people were in on both projects. These days, they are starting to use a new term, "climate change." The beauty of that phrase is that it works both ways. After all, both cooling trends and warming trends both constitute change, don't they? And who among us is gullible enough to believe all this nonsense. Why its our beloved "skeptics" of course. Does God exist? Oh no, they say. We evaluate these things critically. Does the moral law exist? They are much too sophisticated for that. Do reason's rules exist. Don't be silly. Is the world in danger of getting too hot after having been in danger getting too cold? Goodbye skepticism; hello credulity.StephenB
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
LH @ 49:
Because I’d hate to be the kind of person who just flings slurs . . .
Truly ironic coming from someone who, based on the evidence of dozens of comments, seems truly and genuinely to believe that only someone with a character flaw can possibly disagree with him.Barry Arrington
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
The list of excuses for global warming pause is up to 52. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/11/list-of-excuses-for-the-pause-in-global-warming-is-now-up-to-52/ Thanks to all of those who piled in at the end to insist that the pause is not real. You have demonstrated the credulity of the true zealot. And that is, after all, what this post is about.Barry Arrington
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
10:37 AM
10
10
37
AM
PDT
It’s neither intended nor loaded enough a term that I feel the need to take an instruction to “go forth and do better.”
No, I don't suppose you do intend to go forth and do better. I am not surprised.Barry Arrington
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
Barru, Since you get repeating this. Zachriel, the 18 year trend of no statistically significant increase in average global temps is admitted even by most climate alarmists You might want to check for yourself, the annual mean temperature anomaly is the column labeled J.D: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt A linear regression of anomoly on year gives a p-value over the last 18 years gives a p-value of 0.0134. It's possible some of your confidence here is misplaced?wd400
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
Barry: Zachriel, the 18 year trend of no statistically significant increase in average global temps is admitted even by most climate alarmists. What are the scientific levels of confidence that is true? Since the acknowledged range in temperature accuracy, what is the probability that the trend is real rather than an artifact of cherry picking a start year? More or less than 38%? You sharply criticized NASA for their statement, it seems objectively self evident that you should adher to the same levels of proof as you demand. Your comment places you squarely in the far far far left foaming at the mouth zealot end of the spectrum. Actually his view is mainstream , but most everyone is far left of far rightvelikovskys
January 23, 2015
January
01
Jan
23
23
2015
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply