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The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems

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When a thing is false, is false from all points of view. In fact it cannot exist a point of view from which the thing becomes true, given it is false, rather each view point manifests a particular aspect of the falsity of the thing. As a consequence, when a thing is false, whether we suppose it is true we get contradictions, one for every point of view we consider the thing from. All that is simple logic.

When the above principles are applied to Darwinism (which according to ID theory is false) they make us conclude that Darwinism is false from all viewpoints and has internal contradictions. Of course the falsity of Darwinism is its fundamental axiom of unguided macroevolution: all biological complexity arose from a unique simple common ancestor only thank to random mutations and natural selection. RM and NS, individually taken, per se are not false, insofar they really happen. No one denies that and all appreciate Darwin who studied natural selection. The problem is in the infinitely stronger claim about the creative power of RM + NS contained in the fundamental axiom.

Here I will consider, among the Darwinism contradictions, that concerning the control-repair systems, which is particularly clear and easy to understand.

Molecular biology shows that many complex control-repair mechanisms work inside the cell to recover genetic errors. For example there are at least three major DNA repair mechanisms. Without such mechanisms life would be impossible because the internal entropy of the cell would be too high and destructive. Each of them involves the complex and coordinated action of several enzymes/proteins. See here.

In general, in its simplest form, a control-repair system B on a controlled system A is composed of two main parts: a control unit and a repair unit. See the following diagram:

rm

The control unit is able somehow to get an input scenario X from a specific point of the structure or the events-space of A. X is compared to a predefined correct scenario Y and the result is a Boolean value yes/no. This Y scenario is not a trivial thing because it implies that the control/repair system must know what should be the correct scenario in that particular point of A. If the result of the question “X match Y?” is “no” it is inputted into the repair unit. In turn the repair unit takes an action Z on A to recover partially or entirely the X situation. And here again the repair unit must have a (rich enough) correspondence table between the possible couples X,Y and the Z actions to be taken to fix the failure X. In a sense a feedback or loop must be created between the controlled system and the repair system. In another sense we could even say that in some cases between the controlled system and the control system must exist cCSI (see my previous post about “coupled complex specified information”). Repair systems of all sorts have to be designed frequently in engineering, but, despite the simplicity of the above diagram, they are often hard to implement.

At this point, before the presence of repair systems in the cells, one might asks why Darwinian processes create such systems, as evolutionary biology claims. After all what are random mutations but errors? If Darwinian processes are not based on errors are not Darwinian at all. Darwinism says us that random mutations and natural selection are a process that needs errors and in the same time this process creates mechanisms to eliminate them? Non sense, it should create mechanisms to produce errors instead, to accelerate macroevolution. Either Darwinian processes are based on DNA errors and then don’t create DNA-repair mechanisms deleting errors or Darwinian processes do create DNA and its repair systems and then Darwinian processes cannot be based on errors. You cannot have it both ways.

The bottom line is that repair mechanisms are incompatible with Darwinism in principle. Since sophisticated repair mechanisms do exist in the cell after all, then the thing to discard in the dilemma to avoid the contradiction necessarily is the Darwinist dogma.

Comments
Bill, you claimed that Darwinian process could explain any "improvements in self repair and replication mechanisms." If you meant that Darwinian processes could explain the "origin" of self-repair mechanisms, than perhaps you should restate your assertion. You kind of tied the issue of self-replication and self-repair together, when they are separate. You also talked about "improvements" when we are talking about origins. If that's what you meant, than ok, but it's a bit off-topic. If it's not what you meant please clear it up for me. Thanks.tragic mishap
September 15, 2009
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ROFLMAO = Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A** Off. Check here from now on - its getting to be vital on the web!Borne
September 15, 2009
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I'm personally very glad to see this thread. I've been arguing for design based on biological error detection/correction mechanisms for years and most of the time the Darwinist elements (and even some IDists) just don't seem to "get it". I never could understand how anyone could miss it! Its just so obvious that detecting errors and 'knowing' how to correct them, intrinsically implies knowledge of correct system state. I mean, take the teacher watching the student writing a sentence. When the student writes say, 'inteligents' instead of 'intelligence' - the teacher spots the error ONLY because she *knows* what the word is (by subconscious pattern recognition) and how it is supposed to be alphabetically sequenced! There is no other possibility, So why hasn't this specific argument not showed up in any of the many books I've read on arguments for ID? It's not something hard! I've never understood why this aspect of cellular machinery has not been more efficiently exploited by the ID community. Anyone have any ideas on that? Thanks again niwrad!Borne
September 15, 2009
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p.s. ROFLMAO = ?alan
September 15, 2009
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thanks Murray - to me its like someone needed to inject some sanity into this - some "perspective" some common sense. Isn't it fascinating just how much humans can create such imaginative scenarios simply because they want to and to them their story actually makes sense. To me it the choice (to want that story) that makes credulous such stories. How many falsifying points of view are needed to change such a desire? Thanks niward for this (from so many) one point of view.alan
September 15, 2009
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I've been thinking this for a while and it needs to be fleshed out. How does a system based on errors create an error-control system? It would undermine itself. At the very least, it is going against the flow. Darwinism is unfalsifiable so I'm not sure that this will be a deathblow, but it should at the very least give food for thought. And I would hazard a guess that error control systems are irreducibly complex themselves, but that's another story.geoffrobinson
September 15, 2009
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I am very certain that error correction can not evolved. (de Visser j.A., R. E. 2002. Long-term experimental evolution in Escherichia coli. XI Rejection of non-transitive interactions as cause of declining rate of adaptation.) In this experiment DNA repair mechanisms broke got pass natural selection. Error repair does give the cells that have it ,get it very very little advantage over those who don't. Plus with out error correcting mechanisms the mutation rate goes up and what natural selection can see goes down. I very sure that in that cause natural selection will not see Error repair.spark300c
September 15, 2009
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BillB,
If you produce offspring and some of them fail to reproduce then the traits they inherited, or acquired by variation, that caused them to fail do not get passed on any further.
Not necessarily. Just because a finch has a short beak does not mean it doesn't have the genetic information for a long beak as well. When talking about inherited traits, then dormant and active traits must be accounted for. If a parent passes on a bad gene to its 4 children, and only one of those children expresses the failed trait and consequently fails to reproduce, then that leaves the other 3 to continue to pass it on. Errors can still grow exponentially while circumventing selection altogether. Again, simple Mendelian genetics. It seems the only thing preventing such tendencies from total catastrophe is in fact said repair systems, which Darwinian explanations fail to well... explain. You can say that an error-driven system produces error-checking repair systems. You can also say that record low temperature trends = catastrophic global warming. Nakashima-san, Wow, sounds like a great trip! I've always been a fan of Mendel. If you don't mind me asking, what was it like?PaulN
September 15, 2009
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niwrad: What a wonderful arguument. The Darwinists are left asserting that a sophisticated error-checking system "just can" come into existence via random mutation and then "just happen" to get perfectly set for macroevolution by failing to correct itself when errors appear in its coding; and then just happens to fail to correct some mutations and then just happens to itself become mutated in synthesis to the other mutations so that it doesn't error correct that mutation ... ROFLMAO!!!!William J. Murray
September 15, 2009
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jerry,
A perfect correction rate produces variation if it already exists so the need for variation in the offspring to face a new environment is not a normal issue. There is no need for a lower correction rate that would leave more offspring. But it could be designed that way.
you are confusing individual- and population-level variation. a perfect correction rate (in asexual organisms), at an individual level, would produce clones that would all be wiped out if the environment changes. if one of the offspring has a slight variation created by a less-than-perfect replication, it might allow that individual offspring to survive. 1>0, so imperfect correction evolves.Khan
September 15, 2009
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Mr PaulN, Thank you for your good wishes. I was in Europe for a few weeks with limited access to a computer. But I did get to visit the Mendel Museum in Brno, which I found a very powerful experience.Nakashima
September 15, 2009
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"Does the organism need foresight to reproduce? If you produce offspring and some of them fail to reproduce then the traits they inherited, or acquired by variation, that caused them to fail do not get passed on any further. If some of your offspring succeed in reproducing then they pass on some of the traits that lead to successful reproduction, including any improvements in self repair and replication mechanisms. No foresight is required, just descent with modification filtered through selection." I am sorry but this is a non sequitur. All you have stated is a truism that has nothing to do with the issue. Why would a mechanism for a lower correction rate succeed better when there is no need for it. We know that a higher correction rate produces more offspring since they are already viable but a lower correction rate by definition is problematic yet this one that can foresee the possibilities of the future are somehow allowed to flourish. A perfect correction rate produces variation if it already exists so the need for variation in the offspring to face a new environment is not a normal issue. There is no need for a lower correction rate that would leave more offspring. But it could be designed that way.jerry
September 15, 2009
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tragic mishap: So in order to explain how error correcting mechanisms might arise in pre-existing self replicating systems, we need to first explain how non-error correcting self replicating systems originate?BillB
September 15, 2009
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jerry,
It would have to have foresight to know it is heading on a deadly course . . .
density dependent selection is one way what BillB is talking about occurs. e.g. when a population gets too big, selection starts to favor different life history traits that may slow down population growth. an experimental example can be found here: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/253/5018/433Khan
September 15, 2009
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We're not talking about "improvements" here. We're are talking origins.tragic mishap
September 15, 2009
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It would have to have foresight to know it is heading on a deadly course . . .
Does the organism need foresight to reproduce? If you produce offspring and some of them fail to reproduce then the traits they inherited, or acquired by variation, that caused them to fail do not get passed on any further. If some of your offspring succeed in reproducing then they pass on some of the traits that lead to successful reproduction, including any improvements in self repair and replication mechanisms. No foresight is required, just descent with modification filtered through selection.BillB
September 15, 2009
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"There is a feedback loop via selection that imposes limits and prevents the systems running away to an extreme." Nonsense. If such a thing happened it would be happening all the time and there is no documentation for this. It would have to have foresight to know it is heading on a deadly course and that is verboten.jerry
September 15, 2009
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...of course niwrad you speak to the amazing complexity behind the notion of actually monitoring a mechanism and encoding and storing the correct state for comparison. But once change occurs...how does the undirected mutation know that this is a good change and should now be a part of the stored correction information used for comparisons? Another dilemma that invalidates Darwinism since by definition there is no way to know if the change wrought by the mutation is good and should be kept around until it is selected.... ...and even if somehow some part of the process knows its a good change, the complexity of updating the repair information is way beyond the ability of "undirected" processes.JoeNC
September 15, 2009
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What a great entry niwrad. The repair mechanism itself must be updated as the organism (supposedly) mutates. The same random mutations that are "advancing" the creature must be updating the repair mechanism to recognize the new state! All unguided without previous knowledge of where the design is going. Not... Excellent post to expose how quickly Darwinism breaks down in the details. Look at the details and see the vast gap between what changes random mutations actually impart and what Darwinism needs them to be able to accomplish.JoeNC
September 15, 2009
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By the way, it's good to see you've returned Nakashima-san.PaulN
September 15, 2009
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By the way, I think it's pivotal to note that we aren't merely talking about an organism's natural tendency toward stasis. We're talking about its capacity to take corrective action when said stasis is interrupted by error. First there must be a known correct state as Borne mentioned. Then there must be a method in place to make specific changes to return to this correct state when error is introduced. It's also worth noting that this system must cater to each and every specific error within its capacity to repair, each of which may need to be handled differently. The sophistication of the error detection within repair mechanisms and the method in which each one carries out repair must not be taken for granted. This goes quite a large leap beyond the "because that's how it evolved" stories I've seen so far in this thread.PaulN
September 15, 2009
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Borne, Darwinism explains everything. Even counter-intuitiveness. How you ask? Because that's how it evolved.PaulN
September 15, 2009
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The most obvious thing, that Darwinists are never able to see, is that there is no such thing as an error detection/correction system without knowledge of what the correct system state should be. So, as per the OP, these mechanisms intrinsically imply intelligence. You cannot detect error without knowledge of correct state and a means of measuring current state. You cannot repair it unless you can detect it. All of this clearly argues for teleology in the origin of the cell. Programmers all know this. We find the same kind of exception trapping logic and mechanisms in DNA that they build into their applications to preempt errors from crashing the system. Amazing that Darwinists believe this is just pure luck. Amazing that they can think the very mechanisms which prevent the cell from 'wandering' too far off its correct system state, are also the very things that make it do so!!Borne
September 15, 2009
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Joseph, I borrowed one from Von Neumann.BillB
September 15, 2009
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Nakashima #5 Thanks for your warning about the missing picture. WordPress has a bug in inserting images into a post (clearly a Darwinian mutation not yet corrected by the evolutionary repairing system ... ) Now it should be ok.niwrad
September 15, 2009
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BillB:
Take a toy example of a simple replicator that generates variable copies of its self.
And where do you get that from- a magic shop? Ya see BB, your scenario can't even get started.Joseph
September 15, 2009
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the Goldilocks system we have does not make sense in terms of Darwinian processes. It would not know when to stop.
There is a feedback loop via selection that imposes limits and prevents the systems running away to an extreme.
Why don’t certain organisms take over an ecology and in the end destroy themselves.
I think they do sometimes, but more often than not an organism that takes over will also present opportunities for other organisms to exploit new niches, counterbalancing the organism that is taking over.BillB
September 15, 2009
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I look on the error mechanism of the cell as fantastic design. It is like Goldilocks' porridge, not too hot and not too cold. It is just right. But it is just right for micro evolution and nothing else. If it could produce macro evolution, we would never hear the end of it from some very prominent irritants in our environment. And a good reason is because it may have been designed that way. Organisms need to adjust a little as environments change and variation is better then complete conformity. But too much variation creates chaos and probably quick extinction through the entropy you mention. But just enough error creates the necessary variants we see in our ecologies. It doesn't go any further or else we would have seen it. The error system is a gradual but it is also a very limited one as we have seen in nature. It can not explain the more complicated differences between many species. But you are right, the Goldilocks system we have does not make sense in terms of Darwinian processes. It would not know when to stop. A related book on this topic is Ray Bohlin's The Natural Limits to Biological Change which goes into just what the title says. There seems to be a biological limit on change built into organisms. Why don't certain organisms take over an ecology and in the end destroy themselves. There is nothing Darwinian in limiting their change because it is their own reproduction rate that is at stake and in the short run they do not know the long run that will cause them to go extinct as they get faster, smarter, bigger etc and destroy their neighbors and the ecology essential for their existence.jerry
September 15, 2009
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niwrad: The selection pressure acts on offspring. Error detection, without an error detection mechanism in the organism, occurs by selection. If the error reduces its ability to replicate then it won't produce many or any copies. If, on the other hand, a copy is produced that then produces copies that are less prone to the error because of a change in the copying mechanism then you have, in effect, an error mitigation mechanism. No teleology is required, just a feedback loop via selection imposed from the environment on new generations.BillB
September 15, 2009
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Mr Nirwad, I think you should check with the site admins, the images in your posts are not displaying. As Mr BillB showed, your logic is flawed by assuming that more is always better, or less is always better. There are many physical systems that work best in a zone inbetween extremes, a "Goldilocks" zone if you know that fairy tale. There are many systems that balance two separate forces to maintain a position for long periods, for example gravity vs light pressure in stars. The value of fidelity is balanced against the value of variation, in evolution of repair mechanisms.Nakashima
September 15, 2009
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