Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Effect of Infinite Probabilistic Resources on ID and Science (Part 1)

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One common critique of intelligent design is that since it is based on probabilities, then with enough probabilistic resources it is possible to make random events appear designed. For instance, suppose that we live in a universe with infinite time, space and matter. Now suppose we’ve found an artifact that to the best of our knowledge (assuming finite probabilistic resources) passes the explanatory filter and exhibits CSI. However, one of the terms in the CSI calculation is probabilistic resources available. If the resources are indeed infinite, then the calculation will never give a positive result for design. Consequently, if the infinite universe critique holds, then not only does it undermine ID, but every huckster, conman, and scam artist will have a field day.

Say I had a bet with you that I’m flipping a coin and whenever it came up heads I’d pay you $100 and whenever it came up tails you’d pay me $1. Seems like a safe bet, right? Now, say that I flipped 100 tails in a row and you now owe me $100. Would you be suspicious? I might say 100 tails is just a likely, probabilistically speaking, as 50 tails followed by 50 heads, or alternating tails and heads, or any other permutation of 100 flips, which would be mathematically correct. To counter me, you bring in the explanatory filter and say, “Yes, 100 tails is equally probable, but it also exhibits CSI because there is a pattern it conforms to.” In a finite universe, this counter would also be mathematically valid. I’d be forced to admit foul play. But, if we lived in an infinite universe then even events seeming to exhibit CSI will turn up, and I could claim there is no rational reason to suspect foul play. I could keep this up for 1,000 or 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000,000 tails in a row, and you’d still have no rational reason to call foul play (though you may have rational reason to question my sanity).

Not only do many incredible events become reality, but we begin to lose a grip on reality itself. For instance, it is much more likely, from an a priori probability, that we are merely boltzmann brains [2] instantiated with a momentary existence, only to disappear the next instant. Furthermore, it is much more likely that our view of reality itself is an illusion and the objective world is merely a random configuration that just happens to give us a coherent perception. As a result, in an infinite universe, our best guess is that we are hallucinating, instantaneous brains floating in space, or perhaps worse.

A more optimistic person might say, “Yes, but such a pessimistic situation only exists if we make assumptions about the a priori probability, such as it is a uniform or nearly uniform distribution. There are many other distributions that lead to a coherent universe where we are persistent beings that have a grasp on objective reality. Why make the pessimistic assumption instead of the optimistic assumption?”

Of course, this is good advice, whenever we have such a choice of alternatives. Unfortunately, this advice ignores the mathematical structure of the problem. The proportion of coherent distributions to incoherent distributions drops off exponentially, and as an exponential equation approaches infinity it becomes an almost binary drop off. This means that as probabilistic resources approach infinity, the number of coherent distributions approaches zero. Nor does the situation get any better if we talk about probability distributions over probability distributions, the problem remains unchanged or even gets exponentially worse with every additional layer.

The end result is that with an infinite number of probabilistic resources the case for ID may be discredited, but then so is every other scientific theory.

However, perhaps there is a rational way to preserve science even if there are infinite probabilistic resources. If so, what effect does this have on ID? Maybe ID even has a hand in saving science? More to follow…

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain

Comments
Elizabeth Liddle: "“given what has happened in this universe so far, how likely is this pattern (this living cell) to have arisen?” I trust you are not including in this question the formation of the living cell itself? If so, your question becomes circular and assumes as a given the very thing it is trying to explain. What do you mean, "given what has happened so far?" I'd be curious in hearing you flesh out your thoughts a bit, as I don't see right now, how your idea of precedent contingencies changes the calculation in any meaningful sense. We still have to go on the basis of the laws of chemistry and physics we see operating around us today if we are going to calculate any kind of probabilities. Isn't that what Dembski has done? Indeed, the idea of taking all the probabilistic resources in the universe is a concession to show how unrealistic a materialistic origin scenario is. Otherwise, we could limit the resources to Earth or our galactic neighborhood, and the numbers would look even worse for the materialistic scenario.Eric Anderson
July 27, 2011
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@EL: In an infinite universe all physically possible conjectures are actual, including the one where our scientific instruments show regularity where there isn't any. With an infinite universe we're basically stuck in the matrix with no red pill. Note: the incorrect conclusion from this argument is that the universe is finite because we don't like the consequences. I'm not arguing that at all. I'm merely showing that there is much more than ID at stake when the universe has infinite probabilistic resources.Eric Holloway
July 27, 2011
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Eugene Koonin on the Multiverse and the Origin of Life: The MWO version of the cosmological model of eternal inflation could suggest a way out of this conundrum because, in an infinite multiverse with a finite number of distinct macroscopic histories (each repeated an infinite number of times), emergence of even highly complex systems by chance is not just possible but inevitable. ... A final comment on “irreducible complexity” and “intelligent design”. By showing that highly complex systems, actually, can emerge by chance and, moreover, are inevitable, if extremely rare, in the universe, the present model sidesteps the issue of irreducibility and leaves no room whatsoever for any form of intelligent design.nullasalus
July 27, 2011
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Hi Eric: I guess I don't find the conjecture that there exist universes that don't obey any causal laws terribly useful! And, as you say, we don't know, and can't, know that this one won't stop making any sense at all tomorrow. Nor do we know that the universe wasn't created Last Thursday with the appearance of age. Nor that existence is not an illusion unique to me. But again, I don't find such speculation very information, not least because there is no way of testing them. Science is about finding regularities in the universe - it is powerless to find anything else. As you say: "The end result is that with an infinite number of probabilistic resources the case for ID may be discredited, but then so is every other scientific theory." My view is that ID is incorrect, but not because there might be "an infinite number of probabilistic resources". I don't think that biological entities came about by "chance" where that means that one day the dice fell at a biological entity. In fact, I think that the "probility resources" term in CSI is way too conservative. I'd be persuaded by something much more generous if the rest of the argument made sense. That's because probabilities are conditional. The question is not (I would argue): "how likely is this pattern (say, a living cell) to have happened by chance at least once given the entire number of events in this universe?", but rather: "given what has happened in this universe so far, how likely is this pattern (this living cell) to have arisen?" And to calculate that, we need to know something of the contingencies that led to that point. Dembski's CSI concept does not even attempt to estimate this. And, I'd argue, that this is exactly what evolutionary biologists attempt to discover!Elizabeth Liddle
July 27, 2011
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@EL "My point was that if you started with a randomly drawn sample of events drawn from a population of all possible events, at the beginning of the universe, each of those events would then determine (plus a random quantum factor) the next events, and so on." I don't think it's possible to know this to any degree with infinite resources. There is a possible sequence of events where each event is entirely independent of all previous events, or correlates with random previous/future events, and with infinite resources that possibility is an actuality. How do we know we aren't in that event sequence? For instance, I can easily make the qualification that in this possible sequence our rational faculties moment to moment tell us we are in a markov chain, even though this is entirely false in actuality. Again, it is a possible sequence so it is also an actual sequence.Eric Holloway
July 26, 2011
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There is an identifiable correlation between randomness and confusion. It follows that confusion is caused by randomness.Mung
July 26, 2011
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There is no evidence that the universe -- you know, all that merely lifeless matter bumping around -- is non-deterministic. What there is are many educated-beyond-their-abilities persons who confuse a human general lack knowledge of the cause(s) of things for "randomness" causing these things.Ilion
July 26, 2011
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Now, we know (or at least current evidence suggests) that we don’t actually live in a deterministic universe. - Elizabeth Liddle
Mung
July 26, 2011
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my head hurtsMung
July 26, 2011
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Eric Holloway:
Thanks, good catch regarding CSI. I changed the phrase to “seeming to exhibit CSI.”
:) The other person I picked up on that today was dmullenix.
As for your markov chain point, I don’t know how we could tell we’re any different than a random sample vice a markov chain. The markov chain idea is just an inference from observation, which falls apart in an infinite universe.
Well, of course it has to be a modified Markov Chain because a Markov Chain is a "discrete time" random process, and with they universe, we don't even have simultaneity, let alone discrete time! My point was that if you started with a randomly drawn sample of events drawn from a population of all possible events, at the beginning of the universe, each of those events would then determine (plus a random quantum factor) the next events, and so on. The universe plays the hand it's dealt, in other words, the cards are not constantly reshuffled and re-dealt. So while the initial state of the universe might have been random with respect to all possible states, subsequent states are not random with respect to the initial state, and indeed each future state are is highly predicted by each present state. And while Markov Chains are "memoryless" in the sense that the next state depends entirely on the present state, plus random input; it does not depend on any previous state, I've always thought it was a bad term: it's not that Markov Chains are "memoryless" it's that each state embodies information inherited from previous states, and no other information is required to determine the next state. And that's essentially the "Necessity" part of "Chance and Necessity", although in practice, we often call things Chance when all we mean is that we do not know what caused them, or that they are non-generalisable causal factors.Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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@Elizabeth Liddle, Thanks, good catch regarding CSI. I changed the phrase to "seeming to exhibit CSI." As for your markov chain point, I don't know how we could tell we're any different than a random sample vice a markov chain. The markov chain idea is just an inference from observation, which falls apart in an infinite universe. @Eric Anderson, Right, it seems in our universe that even with infinite resources local interactions are still finitely constrained. But, as I mention to EL above, I'm skeptical we can infer such constraints from observations with infinite probabilistic resources.Eric Holloway
July 26, 2011
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Eliabeth Liddle:
It’s still a markov chain!
And you're just one link in that chain?Mung
July 26, 2011
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2^100 is within the CSI -- cosmos -- limit; but on a lab scale would be unreasonable on chance.kairosfocus
July 26, 2011
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Also, What could I be suspicious of with the coin flipping example? If I didn't actually see you flipping the coin, I'd suspect you were lying. If I saw you flipping the coin, and watched it turn up tails every time, then I'd suspect that both sides are tails. If I was shown that there was indeed a heads and a tails, I'd suspect that the coin was weighted extremely heavily in one direction. In which case 100 tails is highly probable. The question is--to bring this back to evolution--can natural processes make it highly probable that a pattern arises which is equivalent to a coin landing tails 100 times in a row.lastyearon
July 26, 2011
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Also, if 100 tails contains CSI then what does the C in CSI stand for?lastyearon
July 26, 2011
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Now, say that I flipped 100 tails in a row and you now owe me $100. Would you be suspicious? I might say 100 tails is just a likely, probabilistically speaking, as 50 tails followed by 50 heads, or alternating tails and heads, or any other permutation of 100 flips, which would be mathematically correct. To counter me, you bring in the explanatory filter and say, “Yes, 100 tails is equally probable, but it also exhibits CSI because there is a pattern it conforms to.”
Not true. 100 tails does not contain any more specificity than any other permutation of coin flips. And, though it isn't any less probable either, the real counter to your argument is that 100 tails is far less probable than 50 head and 50 tails in no particular order.lastyearon
July 26, 2011
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Mung:
And how did the universe get off that markov chain and on to something else? iow, how did it fundamentally change from being a random process to being a non-random process? What is it now, if not a markov chain?
It's still a markov chain!Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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Eric Holloway, interesting thoughts. At its foundation, the problem with the "infinite resources" argument is that we cannot take it seriously as a counter to CSI, even if infinite resources were true. In other words, the CSI we are identifying is not a single, detached event, like a hypothetical coin flip in a vaccuum in space, with no relation to the rest of reality. Rather, it is a whole series of events that constitute a larger whole. Specifically, the reason we would still cry foul on your 100 tails in a row, is that we know that *regardless of any infinite resources in the universe* in our particular corner of the cosmos, in this place and this time, you shouldn't be able to get that result by chance. Related to life, *regardless of any infinite resources in the broader universe,* given our knowledge of the specific laws of chemistry and physics that operate in our neck of the woods, you can't get the kinds of CSI that we see all around us in life just by chance. Bottom line, the "infinite resources" of some hypothetical universe or multi-verse, are irrelevant to our analysis of whether the laws of chemistry and physics *as we know and understand them to function in our neck of the woods* are sufficient to create the CSI we see. Clearly they are not. The infinite resources, multiverse, or whatever hypotheses, are an irrelevant distraction from the question of whether design can be detected in the diversity and complexity of life on the Earth.Eric Anderson
July 26, 2011
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The universe isn’t a series of hands from a constantly reshuffled deck. It’s a Markov chain, not white noise.
And how did the universe get off that markov chain and on to something else? iow, how did it fundamentally change from being a random process to being a non-random process? What is it now, if not a markov chain?Mung
July 26, 2011
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The issue in a multiverse becomes this sub cosmos, the one capable of interaction with us within relevant horizons. Its local fine tuning whereby slight perturbations kick it our of life friendly zones becomes material. Indeed, Hoyle's resonance example is till relevant as it is astrophysical not cosmos scale, save in eh underlying laws: abundant water is a miracle.kairosfocus
July 26, 2011
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heh. that's twice today I've had to correct someone on that. And I'm not even an ID proponent :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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Also:
But, if we lived in an infinite universe then even events exhibiting CSI will turn up
No, they won't :) Remember that CSI includes a term representing probabilistic resources! CSI is scale-invariant.Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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You seem to forget that even chance events constrain subsequent events. The universe isn't a series of hands from a constantly reshuffled deck. It's a Markov chain, not white noise.Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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"I could keep this up for 1,000 or 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000,000 tails in a row, and you’d still have no rational reason to call foul play." Cheaters in vegas just got a bone. Pit boss: "That's impossible three royals in row, you're cheating!" Grifter: "Welcome to the multi-verse baby, ship it."junkdnaforlife
July 26, 2011
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