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The Fallacy of Creeping Omniscience

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Yesterday, in his “Critics agree with Dembski” post, Eric Holloway raised the issue of a fallacy that is so significant in the design theory context that it deserves its own name: The Fallacy of Creeping Omniscience.

He provided a description that with some minor adjustments, can serve as a working definition:

It is commonly noted that when smart or educated or famous, or wealthy or powerful people or the like achieve expertise or noted success in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge. When listening to smart or educated or famous, or wealthy or powerful people, it is always wise to take this into consideration, and listen most closely to their opinions about what they’re carefully studied. (But, even on those topics where they have genuine expertise, we should note that no expert is better than his or her facts, assumptions and reasoning.)

It is always helpful to give a key example or two, and the now notorious NYRB 1997 clip from Professor Richard Lewontin makes a very good first example:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[ –> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . .
To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[ –> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[ –> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[ –> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[ –> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. (NB: if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words JUSTIFY the above, kindly follow the link and read the full clip and notes.)]

No wonder, Philip Johnson corrected:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

As a second example, Professor William Provine’s 1998 Darwin Day Address at University of Tennessee is useful:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . 

The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . .

Natural selection is a process leading every species almost certainly to extinction . . . Nothing could be more uncaring than the entire process of organic evolution. Life has been on earth for about 3.6 billion years. In less that one billion more years our sun will turn into a red giant. All life on earth will be burnt to a crisp. Other cosmic processes absolutely guarantee the extinction of all life anywhere in the universe. When all life is extinguished, no memory whatsoever will be left that life ever existed.  [[Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract).]

When major and highly contentious philosophical assertions or assumptions appear “obvious” to adherents of a given theory or model or ideology, that is usually a sign that they have been embedded in it from the beginning and have been swallowed unreflectively.

In this case, following the same errors made by Lewontin, not only has the circle of a priori materialism been begged, so that we move in effect from science “must” think in a materialistic circle — not! — to materialistic science determines what is real, to therefore no God exists, but as a direct worldview consequence ethics has been reduced to radical relativism, and thence to might or manipulation makes “right.” Just as Plato warned against 2,350 years ago in The Laws, Bk X.

These are bad enough, but the real tickler is in Provine’s fifth consequence: freedom to decide and think for oneself has now vanished in the evolutionary materialist circle. While he desperately tries to make this seem to be a good thing (he actually says: “We will all live in a better society when the myth of free will is dispelled . . .”), he overlooks a pretty direct consequence, the disintegration of freedom to think for oneself above one’s genetic, socio-cultural and institutional conditioning. For if one is not free, one is a plaything of blind mechanical necessity and accidents of circumstance that may lead one to things that are adaptive in the sense of promoting reproductive success [including by way of career and bank account success] but that comes at a stiff price indeed. Professor Provine has unwittingly undercut his own ability to think and reason and know above and beyond delusions rooted in genes and memes that happen to help jumped-up apes from East Africa struggling in a Malthusian world to have more offspring. Chance Variation and Natural Selection, multiplied by conscious or unconscious eugenics forces in cultures, reward survival and reproductive success, not truth. (And of course, there is the little challenge that the survival of the fittest does not explain the arrival of the fittest (starting with first, cell-based life), but that is a topic for another post.)

To see the full  scope of that price, let us turn to a third witness and case,  Nobel Prize holder Sir Francis Crick in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [[Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

No wonder, Philip Johnson rebutted, in his 1995 Reason in the Balance, that Dr Crick should therefore be willing to preface his books: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” (In short, as Prof Johnson then went on to say: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.”

In short, reduction to self-referential incoherence and absurdity.

In each of these cases, a well-known scientific and/or academic figure, has traipsed beyond what he has primarily studied, and is essaying, unbeknownst, into deep philosophical waters. Only, to find himself caught up in swirling currents and tossing waves of question-begging and self-referential incoherence.

The root problem is that materialist myth-making while wearing a lab coat is still myth-making, and most of today’s scientists and the like have little or no exposure to, training in or capability to use the techniques that are relevant to critical analysis of worldviews and cultural agendas,where also the border between science and philosophy is rather fuzzy.

It would greatly help if high school and college education in science embedded some basic exposure to philosophy of science themes, and related epistemology, logic and general critical awareness; without imposing evolutionary materialism — today’s reigning orthodoxy — as a censoring a priori. END

Comments
I have found several remarks by AG above and have responded to them. (We really need the chronological timeline order format!)kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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AG: An evasion again, pardon. The real challenge as you know or should know, is that once the roaring dragon of accusation of mass delusion based on genes and memes has been let loose in the materialist system, everyone is in the same leaky boat with the dragon. So, how now do you escape the bite of gene and meme cause-effect bonds driving delusions, simply because your delusion is spread by guys who have the genes and memes to wear lab coats? [I.e. we are back to the Lewontinian case as discussed in OP and subsequently.] And that case is a plain example of question-begging and self-referential absurdity. Which manifests exactly the issue that has been identified as the root problem of evolutionary materialism. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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AG, First, there is a problem in both science and wider discussions where distinct theories are empirically indistinguishable, either so far or on a general basis. That is why the comparative difficulties challenge has to asses on not only factual adequacy but coherence and explanatory power. Going beyond, the issue is NOT at the level of direct simple sensation but of the context of meaning behind say moving an arm to pick a fruit, as the distinction between permissible and impermissible fruit makes plain. And that is not an irrelevant or particularly abstruse distinction. We commonly meet it in the world, day by day: keep off the grass. Attempting to dismiss it and its implications as though it were irrelevant and abstruse, is an evasion of a highly material issue. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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F/N: AG, above is grossly misreading the import of modal logic on the subject, i.e. it is a case of creeping omniscience. In brief, you need to reflect a bit on possible worlds, possible beings, impossible beings and necessary beings. In a side light -- i.e. via another strand that mutually reinforces -- from another discussion, you may profit by doing he half burned match experiment and discussion here. Remember, too, the root challenge is that the cumulative worldview level commitment to reject the cluster of arguments is quite surprisingly burdensome.kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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PS: The cumulative worldviews case issue is brought out just a tad, on links mostly, here above.kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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AG I note the subject shift. It reflects the same pattern of problems of a one-shot kill attempt on failure to address the strands of a rope issue. (If you want to look at arguments to God in the modern era, you are looking at a worldview level inference to best explanation as underlying framework, and you are looking at a choice of worldview level commitments, where every such pattern has implied difficulties. And the cumulative commitment to reject the cluster of arguments, e.g. here on and here [cf. here], on that IBE basis, when seen as a whole, becomes quite difficult and implausible. Also cf here on the thinking toolkit needed.) Back on the main emergent focus for discussion in this thread, you will see that I have decided to re-balance the presentation here on [notice the point where the discussion actually begins and the implications of the Smith cybernetic model], towards a bit more details than I had hitherto used. You have manged to tip the didactic balance a bit towards more technical details. (I hope this does not sacrifice too much of grasp-ability for the ordinary reader.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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A gradation on the argument from perfection? That argument never had persuasive power for me, since I associated existence with imperfection. It proved non-existance.africangenesis
August 27, 2011
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Actually, I agree, at least in so far as religion has physical implications, they can have survival value. Physics can only arbitrate the physical implications. I see their value in group competition. Increased within group sharing and mutual assistance, my kids grew up on hand-me-downs and have always had assistance and advice when needed. Evangelism creates a buffer zone of less hostile people around. Of course, those religions with fanaticism and fervor can quickly intimidate within group non-conformity and ward off neighbors. If you'd been reading my comments on other pages you could have anticipated by appreciation of religion.africangenesis
August 27, 2011
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If the distinction is at an abstract level without physical implications, then we probably won't be able to distinguish the theories.africangenesis
August 27, 2011
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F/N: I think the theistic arguments are best seen as a cumulative case, and the challenge is to see what denying them collectively entails. For instance move from contingent cosmos to necessary being as root cause, then try to deny. But that is more of a metaphysical project.kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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Interesting, even though a bit breathlessly rushed.kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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Footnotes to Ontological argument: These references may make it much easier for some to understand the Ontological 'proof' for God that was illustrated by the preceding video; Ontological Argument For God From The Many Worlds Hypothesis - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4784641 God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4 I like the following concluding comment about the ontological argument from the following Dr. Plantinga video: "God then is the Being that couldn't possibly not exit." Ontological Argument – Dr. Plantinga (3:50 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXvVcWFrGQbornagain77
August 27, 2011
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Africangenesis: Apparently, your point is that at least some thought, instinct, or belief that is in contradiction to physical reality will weed out errors (when compared to reality). Since to this point evolution has wrought a human race where the majority does not believe in materialism, and the majority believes in a god of some sort, then by the evolutionary success standard, theistic non-materialism is true. Do you agree? If not, why not? Before you answer, let me posit your answer for you: you do not agree. But on what basis do you not agree? If apparent evolutionary success to this point is our only effective barometer of what is most likely true (since we cannot trust our "reasoning", as it factually produces at least as much false thought as true in the here and now), then shouldn't you accept majority thoughts and dismiss your own? But, even more problematic, what if your particular reasoning, which you are employing in this debate, is just erroneous, like most other lines of reasoning that have ever existed on the planet when it comes to world-view concepts of truth? We have nothing but the physics that produced it to appeal to for correction, which is self-referential, and we won't know (by the evolutionary standard) which or our views is "right"; unless, of course, we go by our individual procreative rate. I have 6 children and 12 grandchildren. Do I win, by the evolutionary standard? Since we know reasoning and thoughts and beliefs are incredibly faulty, why should I pay your particular argument here any mind? Why should you think me capable of understanding it? Why should you even try? Physics wrought both my position and yours; why not just leave it up to evolution to decide, since we are incapable of evaluating our arguments for error with anything but what produces errors in the first place? Also, couldn't it be argued that some thoughts and beliefs that are in contradiction to reality would actually be better for humans? After all, to move from simply reacting to the lion and running from it, to preparing for the event if a lion attacks by constructing a trap, one must be able envision a state of reality not currently in existence. In order for some prey to survive, they must appear to be something other than what they are. One can see that modes of thought or physicality that are not governed by what actually occurs, but upon what might occur, or to prevent things from occurring, are quite useful. Deception and lying and imagination would all be evolutionary mechanisms that detach the thinking process from "reality". If I can get a bunch of people to believe a big lie that motivates them to build and cultivate and get along, then the big lie aids in survival. If I say god wants them to reproduce as much as possible, then that can be greatly effective in getting that meme inserted into the greater population. Now, who do you think procreates more; atheist/materialists, or theistic non-materialists? Who has a better chance of getting their genes to continue on? The problem with any physicalist system is that if we are to go by what actually exists here and now, then your argument leads away from your position; if what exists has been validated by evolution as true, then your position is false when compared to the majority of what exists; you have nothing else to appeal to to validate your argument, because everything else could simply be errors produced by physics. IOW, by your own argument you should lay down your own beliefs and accept what the majority of humans believe to be true, just as the moral physicalist/relativist should lay down their morals and accept consensus morality. But, I doubt you will, because you argue as if you and I have libertarian free will, and can discern true statements independent of physical, causative chains, and as if "the truth" is something other than what utterances and actions physics actually produces.William J Murray
August 27, 2011
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kf, speaking of Plantinga; This guy has really done his homework on Plantinga's Ontological argument to refine it to a irrefutable proof: The Ontological Argument for the Triune God - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGVYXog8NUgbornagain77
August 27, 2011
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PPPPS: Plantinga's clip from Churchland may also help bring the point home: ___________ >> 6 --> . . . the input/ output [[i/o] controller can easily be seen as a function of neural networks. But, the supervisory level [in the Smith Cybernetic loop] is a level of imagination, decision, intention and skill. But, also, as Plantinga cites from Patricia Churchland, for evolutionary materialist naturalists, such a neural network cybernetic controller view (despite the confidently stated pious hopes of other naturalistic thinkers) may come at a surprisingly stiff price:
Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in . . . . feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival [[Churchland's emphasis]. Truth, whatever that is [[ --> let's try, from Aristotle in Metaphysics, 1011b: "that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not" . . . ], definitely takes the hindmost. (Plantinga also adds this from Darwin: "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?")
>> __________ See the key issue?kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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PPPS: Also, I have felt it necessary to explicitly cite Liebnitz's key point in his famous analogy of the mill: _______________ >> 7 --> If the materialistic view is true, it will be possible to build the supervisory level [for a Smith Model Cybernetic loop, the context for the whole discussion . . . ] out of the neural networks that are available; but if it is false, then it may overlook other possible elementary constituents of reality and their inner properties. 8 --> But as Liebnitz pointed out in his famous analogy of the Mill, the parts of a machine interact through mechanical interactions (including chance disturbances etc), and so have no inherent rationality, imagination, intent or obligation. That is, there is an inherent gap between the physical "is" and the logical inference, the mental“vision,” the decision or the force of "ought," much less self-awareness. Citing from his The Monadology, 17:
It must be confessed, however, that perception, and that which depends upon it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception [[i.e. abstract conception]. It is accordingly in the simple substance, and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought . . .
9 --> By contrast, mind-body dualists such as Liebnitz, are often dismissively said to be proposing an unobservable "ghost in the machine," for which there is said to be no reason to see how it can interact with the brain-body closed loop system. 10 --> However, if the proposed immaterial mind acts the part of a supervisory controller, it may supervene informationally (and so also conceptually) on the "bio-robot" of the brain-body cybernetic system. Thus, the logical or imaginative, creative process can intervene in the brain-body cybernetic system informationally, conceptually and logically, not by mere mechanical cause-effect chains. 11 --> In other words: Liebnitz's wheels simply grind the one against the other in a causal chain; by themselves, they do not originate their organisation nor do they logically infer consequences of premises, etc. >> ______________kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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PPS: let's pick up a clip from the mods, where I bring in something previously held back from IOSE in app 8 of the always linked through my handle, as I thought it was a little technical. But to make sure the point is underscored, I need to bring this in, from Reppert: ______________ >> h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.]
i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. >> _____________ The balance between detail, length and "simplicity" is always hard to strike. I had thought Haldane was enough . . . kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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PS: In an effort to improve clarity in light of the perceptions revealed in the exchanges above, I have made some adjustments here, which is the main place where the relevant argument is made.kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence . . . . j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the "conclusions" we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity.
Do you see how the strands of the rope mutually reinforce in the face of different types of strain put on the rope, to hold it together and take the new load? Notice what is happening to the Marxists, Freudians, Behaviorists, Crickian reductionists and even Lewontinian a priori materialists: they are projecting unto others an irrationality that their own system would also lock them into, reducing them to self-referential absurdity. As was shown by key suggestive example for case after case. This is not the level of picking fruit, but what it takes to recognise that a given fruit is properly forbidden, per good warrant. As the ghosts of 100 million victims of marxist regimes over the past 100 years moan out to remind us. Next,we bring the new atheists to the dock. They are busily trumpeting to the highest heavens how (especially theistic) "Religion" is a delusion, even child abuse. So, that means they think it is a capital case of the memes and genes being passed on and turning out some degree of survival advantage, while being -- in their estimation -- false to the point of borderline lunacy. But, if such a large fraction of the world is so delusional, you have fatally undermined the credibility of the human cognitive -- as opposed to mere perceptual -- system. Once those dogs of rhetorical war have been let loose, though, they cannot be called back to one's convenience. Materialism, for all its scientific pretensions, is a similar abstract conceptual system that is being rewarded with survival. So, the same forces are going to be at work, i.e we have self-reference. And, we have a situation where we already see that on the Marxist's terms, delusions can become mass delusions and still promote success. So, we have no defense here, apart form the injection of the Lewontinian type a prioris that patently beg questions, censor issues, confuse categories of knowledge to the point of blatant self-referential incoherence, are motivated by self-congratulatory arrogance, and worse. In short, the evidence is that the very same delusional pattern projected unto others is busily at work among the a priori materialists, never mind the fancy lab coat and the glittering medals on it. (Just ask the ghosts of the soldiers of WW I what chests full of medals mean in terms of competence. Ask yourself why it was the amateur strategist-politician-journalist, Churchill, who as in effect political head of the Royal Navy -- not the army, sponsored the key breakthrough weapon, the tank. Originally, land-ship, armed with a typical naval secondary weapon, the six pounder.) And, this is particularly relevant to the origins science context, as, surprise -- not, we cannot directly observe the deep past of origins so we must make and use conceptual models of it based on theoretical reconstructions. This is not like watching an apple fall while the crescent moon swings by in the skies of Lincolnshire. This leads on to:
n: Such [Lewontinian] a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)
See the cumulative effect of the argument? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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AG: Kindly note, the questions being raised clearly operate at the integrative, abstract conceptual level of worldviews [or if you will, ideologies or schools of thinking], not immediate sense perceptions, which themselves can often work good enough even if distorted or embedded in patently false schemes of thought -- pragmatic success is not to be equated to truth-making or truth-warranting. That is, the issues at the focus of discussion are regarding not trivialities such as moving an arm to pick or catch a fruit by successive approximation -- which does not require the abstraction in even as much as doing an addition -- but in those world-model-building abstractions that affect cognitive beliefs and how they are formed into a whole. With particular focus on areas of responsible choice. (Kindly note, again, the specific set of examples given, they are an integral part of the frame of argument, and like the successive approximation of reaching out to pluck a fruit, they prevent twisting the argument into strawmanish pretzels.) Your attempted counter-examples therefore fail. They also inadvertently illustrate precisely the problem at stake. What does it mean to have a wife and be married, for instance? Are there two people who can actually decide -- and not merely two hormone and impulse driven jumped up apes programmed genetically and meme-etically to unconsciously follow genetic and socio-culturally programmed impulses without any true, responsible choice or commitment? Is such marriage a lifelong covenant, or a convenient agreement for the time being -- as in the women are on probation and can be dumped for a newer flashier model at any time? And, how do we reasonably, responsibly decide which view to accept and act on? [Cf here on warrant and knowledge.] The women involved are putting their lives on the line on childbearing [for most of history, this as been a relatively high-risk action], and their attractiveness; these days, in direct competition with web porn. But if men are in a position where they perceive that they have no real power of choice and commitment, then the thereby reduced moral resistance to tempting perceptions and impulses lead to chaos and ultimate sociocultural disintegration. In effect, the issue is not reaching out for fruit, but reaching out for forbidden -- notice the shift in cognitive focus -- fruit; in light of how that act is understood when mere perceptions are integrated into worldviews. Sounds familiar? When it comes to merely reaching out an arm for a fruit, the issue is that there is a direct reinforcing loop through multiple senses. But when it comes to forming symbolically communicated, conceptual, cognitive beliefs and principles of action -- what is inescapably involved in "forbidden fruit," the sort of direct counter-checks through sensory paths are going to be absent. Now, at that level, you are going to have to rely on abstractions, conventions for symbols and ground-consequent bonds, not cause-effect ones. And if you reduce the former to the latter, you are stuck in the trap of being jumped up pond scum by way to East African apes scrambling for reproductive advantage in a Malthusian survival- of- the- ruthless- or- wily world. The subtle trap involved here is the one highlighted by Kant in discussing the categorical imperative. False premises and principles of action can often succeed [too often, very well indeed], providing they can parasite off the fact that the community as a whole does not operate like that, e.g. lying, cheating and the like. But once the pattern propagates across the community and becomes sufficiently dominant or common, doubtless pushed by ideologies that are utterly amoral, the society as a whole collapses. To the massive loss of all. Now, let us integrate that into the patterns above. Notice, the evolutionary materialistic dynamic as proposed is going to promote survival at the level of passing on one's genes based on the success or otherwise of one's behaviour, not the accuracy of one's beliefs. So, for instance a Genghis Khan can succeed genetically beyond wildest expectations by being in effect the rapist in chief. (It seems from the genetic evidence that if he wasn't killing off the men, he must have been busy raping the widows he just created and their daughters.) So, let us review, as it is plainly so counter to the ingrained beliefs that it is hard to see what is actually being said:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].
As a direct consequence, we see what happens in cases of such thinking, not so much at the level of picking fruit, but picking forbidden fruit -- note, again, the big difference the key abstract concept makes. Watch: [ . . . ]kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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@W. J. Murray, I think you have stumbled onto something which can help clarify the issue: "If physics produces person A that says 1+2=3, and person B that says 1+2=4, unless person A and person B refer to an arbiter for their disagreement other than physics (which produced both conclusions), there is no way to resolve the contradiction." Is there no way to resolve the contradiction/ Physics has a way of resolving contradictions, perhaps in any universe with consistent characteristics there is a logic of some kind. You picked an abstract example where perhaps the working of physics will be more subtle. But I think a reductio ad absurdem is possible. Let's say physics produces predator A that follows the prey, when the prey turns and physics produces predator B that goes straight when the predator turns. Let's say physics produces chimpanzee A that reaches for the fruit where it is and chimpanzee B that reaches 2 feet to the right of the fruit. Let's say physics produces female wolf A that thinks she has 3 pups when she has 3, and female wolf B that keeps looking for a 4th pup when she only has 3. Let's say physics produces a man A that thinks he has a wife when he has one, and man B that thinks he has a wife when he has none. Now this part of your statement: "unless person A and person B refer to an arbiter for their disagreement other than physics (which produced both conclusions), there is no way to resolve the contradiction." Person B, that thinks 1 + 2 = 4 has a more subtle problem, perhaps he will have difficultly in trade, or problems assessing the odds in an upcoming battle, but keep in mind that these brains underwent considerable refinement before they ever got to us. I submit that this is relevant to Gem of TKI's point: "j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the “thoughts” we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the “conclusions” we reach — without residue — must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity." Are they really "irrelevant"?africangenesis
August 26, 2011
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It is certainly true computer program can be designed to use a trial and error methodology to solve some problem or even to learn from its mistakes. However, if there are errors in its design or in the implementation of that design, the program has absolutely no way of ascertaining that fact and correcting such flaws. As William Murray points out, a computer blindly executes its code, whether the code is correct or not. So if your position is that our minds are simply the workings of the machines in our heads called brains, and those machines have been programmed by nature, then those machines have absolutely no way of knowing whether the processes within them that draw conclusions regarding the nature of the world do so correctly or not. Since materialism is itself one of those conclusions, a materialist ipso facto has no way of knowing whether the conclusion that materialism is true is a valid conclusion. I cannot put is any more plainly than that. If you can't see it, there is no point in continuing the conversation.Bruce David
August 26, 2011
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Continuing: 11: Many logical fallacies have persuasive power. But all this indicates, as I previously noted, is that “thinking is hard”, and but there is no contradiction in the idea that mental disciplines and scientific methodology improve our models of the universe and our ability to predict and control it. Irrelevant to the issue of accounting for the origin of a credible reasoning and knowing capacity on evo mat premises without scoring an own goal. The point is that if you reduce the pattern of thinking of others to delusion, and do not have a definite force that makes your exception credible, you have scored an own-goal, as we saw several times above. Voila poof is not good enough. If instead you start from the observed fact of knowledge and rationality and reason on what we do know, then we end up in a very different situation. But evo mat thinking, due to its inherent reductionism and determinism on chance and necessity, locks off that line of thought, when thinking about origins. Hence the repeated own goals. 12: Turnabout is fair play, but is it rigorously defensible here. Religion is around because it is adaptive despite being irrational, therefore, materialism may just be adaptive and irrational too? Has materialism hasn’t been an important part of human thinking for much of written history, much less evolutionary history. What about it is adaptive? As a model that allows better prediction and control of the environment it may well be adaptive. There is no reason to assume that it is irrational just because religion is. Do you now see the many self-servingly and self-congratulatingly begged questions here in light of the cases highlighted above? Let's look at the actual point you have strawmannised:
f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence.
IN SHORT THE UNDERLYING DYNAMIC LEADS TO AN OWN-GOAL. (And to then voila-poof, we are the lucky exception, being so rational, ducks the point that the dynamic multiplied by such prevalence entails that the mind is overwhelmingly delusional. Do you also spot the arrogance and creeping omniscience involved? If you don't reread the remarks on Lewontin above. Factor in the built-in affirming the consequent challenge faced by scientific reasoning.) And on the subject of the role played by materialism in the history of thought, you may find the remarks of Plato on that subject, clipped here, suitably humbling. 13: it [materalism] also espouses a mental discipline, it may actually result in more practice of rational thinking, with practice may come improvement. We’ve already discussed whether any of models are ever the “truth”, the main thing is that they can work, they can aid in predicting and controlling our environment as perceived through our senses. The practice of logical thinking is not a preserve of evolutionary materialism, and in fact the Lewontin-Sagan problem as just described underscores by key example that it too often becomes a deslusional, censoring a priori that handicaps rather than enhances rationality. Going beyond, scientific thought, unlike Lewontin et al imagine, is precisely not a magic key to actually accurate accounts of reality, i.e truth. As you acknowledged just after the clip, empirical reliability "so far" is not to be equated to truth. unfortunately, many are being taught just the opposite, and those who are correcting this blunder are often the despised "religious." 14: under materialism our brains and thoughts don’t violate the laws of physics. In that sense our beliefs, including our beliefs in materialism and religion are “caused”. Influenced does not equate to caused in the deterministic sense. (Examine the distinction between necessary and sufficient causal factors here, and where that leads, please.) 15: but God was harsh and judgemental, at least as exemplified by the humans representing him . . . Pardon, but if anything that shows that the error there is with the humans and not God. 16: I also had parents who valued education and encouraged my love of science and nature. There is nothing wrong with loving or studying science or nature, but there is a big problem with imposing Lewontinian a prioi materialism on such. 17: Yes, because his brain is sound chemically doesn’t mean his thoughts are sound logically. However, Haldane’s musing is not evidence unless you are arguing from authority. If you are going to cite him for having “no reason” to believe his brain is composed of atoms and “no reason” to believe his beliefs are true, you should supplement it with evidence because his authority is not conclusive. He may well be correct, HE had “no reason”, but that doesn’t mean that WE have no reason, we might have looked a little harder and we have the advange of a few decades more scientific advancement. Why are you citing this person? H'mm what aspect of his argument is specific to Haldane? Has he not summarised what Crick et al would later summarise on electrochemistry of neural networks, pointing to the same problem they implied but have yet to acknowledge? And since when is acknowledging the specific name -- here, that of a key foundational evolutionary biologist -- who has made a statement an improper appeal to authority? Let's look again at what he actually said as opposed to your strawman:
It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [then] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically [--> i.e. flow from relevant chemical dynamics], but that does not make them sound logically [--> mechanical cause-effect bonds are not to be confused with logical ground-consequent bonds, and if the one is the driving force, the other would have to be connected to that, which is utterly not the case, chemistry does not ground concepts, their warrant as true, and their linkages on ground-consequent relationships]. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms [--> that is, the framework of logic for scientific reasoning collapses]." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.
At no point is Haldane's reasoning peculiar to his personal identity, but he only gives himself as a case without loss of generality. Going beyond, he highlights the precise gap between the IS of cause-effect bonds and the desideratum of IF-THEN reasoning. For me to highlight this summary to show that this has been on the ground for a long time, from the era that laid the foundation of modern evolutionary thought, is not a fallacious appeal to authority, but rather a proper posing of a challenge that has been there, unanswered from the foundation of the field of modern evolutionary theorising. And BTW, the "there is no evidence" dismissal argument is one of those key selectively hyperskeptical talking points we keep pointing out. Nope, there is evidence and there is reasoning on it, which you happen to disagree with. But that mere fact of disagreement does not instantly demote the evidence to non-evidentiary status. 18: A brain forged by having to work over millions of years of evolution doesn’t work by “astonishingly lucky coincidence”. I’ve discussed this extensively. Sorry, you have failed -- as many others before you -- to non-question-beggingly bridge the gap between the force of cause-effect on chance plus necessity and the framework of function required to give confidence to logical reasoning on evolutionary materialist premises. As has been gone through again, point by point above. To that, let me add this: chance variation and natural selection reward functional success. to get there, we have to first achieve such success, based on exceedingly complex and specific functional organisation. It is precisely a key design theory insight that such FSCI is beyond the reach of chance and mechanical necessity without intelligence, on the gamut of the observed cosmos. Before you can freely assert the above, you need to show EMPIRICALLY how on the scope of resources available in our solar system, the requisite FSCI can be generated by chance and necessity. In effect you have the need to write major operating system modules by chance and necessity, monkeys typing at random and then fitting into an existing operating framework and enhancing it. We know that operating system modules are written routinely by intelligent agents, and that is the only observational basis for the arrival of the function that we have. Associated analysis per the infinite monkeys theorem, and its links to statistical thermodynamics, tells us that such will be maximally unlikely on chance plus necessity absent intelligence. So unlikely that we can find them utterly implausible, in absence of a specific, credible empirical demonstration. The sort of rhetorical gymnastics we see surrounding rejections of the design inference on FSCI serve only to underscore just how much this challenge remains unmet. 19: how has this been discredited? Translated: having rhetorically brushed aside, I dismiss. 20: rather than illusion, reason remains a well developed, productive and successful mental discipline that works! There is no “thus” here, in the deductive or inferential sense The issue is not that REASON is discredited, but that on the points already seen and as substantiated again in the face of your objections, evolutionary materialism is incapable of accounting for it. 21: they [materialists] do “routinely rely upon the credibility of reasoning”. However, most probably don’t struggle with these issues at all. Uh huh. Prezactly. The issue lurks, unanswered and largely ignored by materialists. _______________ I do appreciate that you have at least tried to address the matter on specific points, though you can see from the above, why I draw the conclusion that you have -- as several before you -- failed to bridge the gap between chance and necessity as presumed driving forces of the cosmos and reason. To see why I raised the issue of playing at talking point games instead of addressing on points, seriously, contrast this above to the previous efforts at one point single shot dismissals. I do appreciate the fact of the attempt, but I think the astute onlooker will have grounds to see for him or herself why the attempt fails. G'day for now . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 26, 2011
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I meant to address the above to Africangenesis, not Markf. [Done per request, KF]William J Murray
August 26, 2011
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AG Markf: If physics commands that the body bark like a dog, drool like a loon, slap its own face repeatedly, and concurrently commmands the brain to think it has run rigorous scientific experiment and have reached a sound logical conclusion, then that is what "you" will do, and that is what "you" will think, and you have no arbiting agent available by which you could locate your error and correct it, except the very same thing that created the error in the first place. You cannot check the length of your ruler with the same ruler. This is an issue of logic, not an issue of evidence. Logic interprets evidence. If logic is just another fallible product of physics, how can anyone have faith they are properly interpreting evidence? If physics produces person A that says 1+2=3, and person B that says 1+2=4, unless person A and person B refer to an arbiter for their disagreement other than physics (which produced both conclusions), there is no way to resolve the contradiction.William J Murray
August 26, 2011
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F/N: Looks like I will need to snip key points from 17 above, and respond in sequence. (And since I will be away for some time, let me now add a note that the actual engagement in a discussion does escape from the sock-puppet talking points issue, which is worthy of note.) Okay, here goes: 1: Our deterministic universe is governed by physical laws is nonlinear dynamic and chaotic, and not necessarily “random”. It possesses lots of examples of spontaneous order and mathmatically describable regularities. And, how does this escape the framing that I have given, that on evolutionary materialism, everything from hydrogen to humans "all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances."? I am very aware of spontaneous emergence of ORDER, e.g. crystallisation. This is driven by forces of mechanical necessity that act once the random thermal agitation is sufficiently reduced for the locking forces to assemble a crystal. More broadly, nonlinear dynamical forces of order, subject to the chance impact of initial conditions where there is sensitive dependence to such initial conditions leading to the butterfly effect etc is precisely an aspect of what I described in summary and played a key part in shaping my phrasing. Such has expressed the impact of chance and necessity, it has not escaped them. The necessity shapes the manifested trajectory in the phase space, once initial conditions are set. those initial circumstances are set based on happenstance of initial conditions, including irreducible variability that leads to an inability to exactly reproduce from one case to the next, and to drastic divergence of phase space path in the long run. BTW, such a phase space is such that no two trajectories from distinct initial conditions may intersect. [If they were to, the paths would be the same beyond that point, on the determinism.] 2: consider this generalization: “mechanical necessity acting on material objects” Lets not forget that life is not just passive in this universe, even though life is acted upon by physical forces, it also utilizes chemical energy to act within and upon its environment. You managed to snip apart the actual summary of root causal factors allowed by physicalism:
all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances.
Thus, you have dodged the challenge posed by the actual point b, of accounting for the EMERGENCE of life and of the relevant phenomenon, mind, on such forces of chance and necessity. Thus, a question is well on the way to being begged, bigtime. In addition, an accurate summary was presented by you as a "generalization," which in this context is rhetorically heavily loaded. I have not made a hasty or faulty generalisation, I have made an accurate summary of physicalism. The self-referential incoherence follows pretty directly form that summary. 3: Crick is wrong. Thoughts can be understood in other ways. We knew a lot about biology before we were very good at reducing it to chemistry. Hunter gatherer groups knew a lot about their environments even though they had anthropomorphized natural phenomena and animals. . . . thoughts are so complex they will probably never be “understood” in the sense of being comprehended at the chemical level, but they are considered and assumed to be subject to the same physical laws as the rest of the universe. Crick is wrong, but not for the reasons you hold. He has (per the premise of explanation by analysis) reduced the forces at work to their manifestation in the phase space of possibilities for electrochemistry in neuronal networks in the CNS. And since the CNS is the controller for the body, on materialistic premises his inference follows:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [The Astonishing Hypothesis, 1994]
Crick is not trying to comprehend thought in detail at electro-chemical level, but to explain it in principle on such. Anatomically, our bodies are controlled by the CNS including the brain, and the key anatomical feature is the neuronal network, which interacts electrochemically. So, the particular physical state drives the whole process, on whatever genetic and socio-cultural forces have shaped those neuronal networks. But that then leads to the dynamical process issue: the trajectory is set, and plays out based on electrochemistry, cause and effect, not on any conceptual apparatus of ground and consequent, free choice to think etc. Hence Johnson's apt rebuke that Crick should be willing to preface his writings: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." And he is equally correct to continue: "[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist." Crick scores an own goal. 4: But there is no evidence of intent at the at the level of the physical laws, so Crick is correct in that regard. Intent is a property we recognize in ourselves and infer to exist in other life forms. In short, intent, and associated choice, are either explained away by Crickian reductionism, leading to the own goal of delusion, or else we have an implicit doctrine of mysterious emergence, where ta-da, magic, we have mind from meat. A materialist miracle. Or, more correctly, a telling explanatory gap. (For a serious alternative, cf. the discussion of the Smith Model of cybernetic control through a two-tier control loop and associated issues on mind vs brain, here.) 5: The assembly of nerve cells has a complex organization, and as I mentioned before, Crick could also cite his training, education and the mental disciplines involving evidence and reasoning to support his conclusions. Since Crick is utilizing chemical energy he can act on his environment. There is no inherent contradiction in a being subject to physical laws being able to comment upon the underlying physics of his thoughts. You need to do more than imply there is. There is no inherent contradiction in being subject to the INFLUENCE of physical laws, and being able to think about them etc, but there is indeed a spectacular contradiction between being DETERMINED by factors and forces of blind chance and necessity -- all the difference between influencing necessity and determining sufficiency in the logic of cause -- and being able to somehow on such find the organisation that voila poof escapes the implication of such determinism on chance plus necessity that:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances . . . . c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain?
6: the life form is acting itself, so influences its own development and a nonlinear dynamic relationship with its environment. In short, the life form is operantly conditioned, exactly the problem faced by the behaviorist: is he any better than a sophisticated rat trapped in the cosmic maze and subject tot he conditioning and whatever in the end trial and error successes he may have had that in this case led to prizes and other glorified food-pellets? 7: There were lots of contradictions in marxism, of course they had somehow escaped their conditioning so they must not have considered it absolute, in fact their statements about others being subject to their conditioning was an attempt to persuade them to look at their pre-concieved notions critically and to change them. And how is this materially different from claiming the sort of self-serving exception to the programming of genetic and socio-cultural circumstances that Johnson rebuked for Crick? Let us adapt Johnson on Crick:
“[[t]he plausibility of [dialectic and historical] materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.”
materialist magic again, poof, WE have it right by magic, WE are the exception to the delusion. (If you have had to deal with serious Marxist activists in their heyday you will instantly recognise the pattern. And edon't you darte try bring out the contradictions in the labour theory of value, starting with what happens when you have a set of simultaneous equations with over-determination of the variables! [Ever noticed how the number of equations and the number of variables in those school room exercises always matched? Guess why.]) 8: Freudian’s used dismissive rhetoric too but like the marxists they accepted that the past conditioning could be understood and escaped. Do you see the problem of "we are the exceptions" again? 9: Behaviorist fundamentalism has been rejected in current science. Jane Goodall was part of the revolution that made it acceptable to infer intent and internal mental states in animals again. You score an own-goal here, cf the case where you infer to operant conditioning. Yes, we now have intent recognised as an empirical fact. What is not there is anything beyond voila-poof, to explain it on evolutionary materialist premises. 10: Religion is just one of many examples of the unreliability of our reasoning faculties and alternatively their lack of dominance in our beliefs, feeling and thinking. But because these failings are all too real, they are not just a problem for “the assumption of evolutionary materialism.” You are intending to imply that examples of human irrationality and unreliability of their reasoning call into question not the “assumption” but the conclusion of evolutionary materialism . . . No, I am pointing out that "the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too." Specifically:
we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism.
So, now, on what grounds tracing to genetic and socio-cultural conditioning shaped by chance and necessity, without voila-poofing logical and epistemic warrant capacity, can you account for how "scientific" evolutionary materialism escapes the problem of delusions that work? [I have to get about the day for now, so more later . . . ] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 26, 2011
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AG: Pardon, but you will note that you have repeatedly tried one-shot kill talking point rebuttals [on the evident presumption that you were dealing with geometry proof-like deductive chains], and have only now tried to come to grips with the pattern of argument in some coherent fashion. First, allow me some overall remarks, then let us look point by point at your response above, at least on key clips. Even now, you are looking at "persuasion" rather than warranted inference to best explanation as the underlying wider context of thought. In this context, persuasion is a highly loaded word, but the real question is warrant on inference to overall best explanation, in light of factual adequacy, logical coherence and explanatory power. FYI, abductive inference to best explanation across the major serious alternatives, is the fundamental method of serious inquiry on matters where facts have to be explained in a coherent manner, such as in science, the court room, history, detective work, and at the most complex level of all, comparative difficulties analysis of worldviews (where, ALL worldviews bristle with difficulties, so the issue is to compare across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, then choose a reasonable view as one's own). Within that broad context, we can again look at the argument that has been put on the table, in the context of the real problem of evolutionary materialism in this regard: there is a typical failure to realise the wider implications of the evo mat claims on the origins of mind especially, that leads to the sort of creeping omniscience where those who have not seriously thought through the wider issues and are not expert on them, have traipsed beyond their competence. In particular, the Lewontin- Sagan style imposition of evo mat as a censoring a priori on scientific thought, lands it in serious self-referentiality hot water, starting with things like promoting the mistaken PHILOSOPHICAL notion that "SCIENCE [is] the only begetter of truth." This is as spectacular an own goal as one can make. To then compound such a blunder with the notion that it is now "self-evident" that "science" so censored on a priori materialistic grounds, then "provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality" simply reveals a classic case of going in a self-referentially incoherent question-begging circle, and doing so through closed-mindedness inculcated by domination of institutions of science and science education, as well as of popular science media promotion. Which is what I have highlighted above and in onward links, starting with the original post. Now, there is no need to even bring evolution into the matter as a question of natural history. Strictly speaking, one could take the sort of approach the co-founder of the theory, Wallace did. He saw the world of life as "a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose." One may debate that approach on its merits, but it is simply not subject to the sort of self-referentiality problems that evolutionary materialism runs into once it tries to account for mind as a credible phenomenon, on chance variations and natural selections, thence accidents of socio-cultural circumstances. And the long list of cases of spectacular own-goals for those who have tried to construct accounts of thinking and worldviews on such premises, should serve as a severe warning. The root of the problem is that we must use the very same minds that you discredit when it comes to the other side of issues, to explain the roots of mind, rationality and credible knowledge on warrant. Long ago, Lord Russell (IIRC) warned that whenever one's chain of reasoning becomes self-referential, one must proceed with particular care, lest one scores an own-goal. And failure to work through that issue is precisely what is the characteristic problem of evolutionary materialistic thought. Multiply that by deterministic causal patterns on forces of chance and necessity, and you will see that they want to write what is patently the most sophisticated software in the world, that for a self-assembling neural network processor capable of controlling our bodies and of the sort of linguistic and logical competence and learning that we so often take for granted -- that's a big part of the logical trap they fall into -- through accumulated accidents leading to progress on chance discovery of complex function that allows for improvement by further trial and error rewarded through differential success leading to hill-climbing up the back-slope of Mt Improbable. The big gap there is that the first problem is that with a highly complicated system with high contingency, functional arrangements of parts will all but certainly be deeply isolated in the beyond-astronomical space of possibilities. So, the search algorithm they imply is by overwhelming evidence credibly incapable on its face of the results they want to ascribe to it. So, if they want to substantiate such an incredible claim, they have to provide adequate warrant, by actual empirical demonstration. It is notorious that this is conspicuously missing in action, for all aspects of complex body plans, not just for minds and brains. Even the simple proof of concept test of setting up the electronic equivalent of monkeys typing at keyboards at random, shows that once spaces hit about 10^50 possibilities, and then go on beyond that, you begin to run out of steam. The complex specified information threshold used to infer design as best explanation starts at about 10^150 possibilities. What is done instead? The question is begged, as Lewontin demonstrates and as Johnson quite properly rebukes. materialism is imposed as a censoring a priori by the trick of dressing it up in a lab coat and pinning on the medals of the success of science on the coat. Sorry, that sort of a priorism leading to question-begging redefinition of science in such a way that the process of inference to best explanation is censored ideologically, is precisely a case of creeping omniscience that leads to traipsing beyond one's competence. It is utterly unsurprising that it ends in an own-goal of self-referential incoherence. Okay, next I will take up your more specific claims. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 26, 2011
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Because under the material brain system, there's no way to determine if the model works or not, because the same system that produces the programming is supposedly checking the system. You say:
A computer program can be made to recognize errors and deviations from its goals,
But fail to recognize that such programs are "Made to recognize errors" by exterior agents who apply goal-oriented instructions without which there isn't any such thing as an "error" in programming. Physical material has no goals; it just produces what it produces. Presumably, in biology, it produces "whatever survives and procreates best", not "whatever produces truthful statements about the world and its own existence", which would be why the world is full of people who don't believe in materialism. If materialism produces mostly truthful statements about the world and our own existence, then materialism would be false, because most people believe it to be false. If they are in error, then material brains & physics produce error-prone humans with no means to access any objective criteria or method or outside agency to evaluate their beliefs and views and claims by; all they have are the same materials and physics that produced a world full of erroneous human thought in the first place. That erroneous human thought would include all areas of pursuit - religion, science, relationships, logical argument, etc. Materialism as a premise is a self-defeating worldview.William J Murray
August 26, 2011
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Since when is physics an error prone mechanism? For physical “truth”, a logic consistent with the physical world would seen appropriate.
Unless you are going to argue that most people (who are accumulations of physics) and their logic (produced by physics) make true arguments and reach true conclusions (which according to materialism, they do not, since they don't believe in materialism), then physics is necessarily an error prone mechanism, producing the logic and conclusions of hitler, gandhi, hitler, stalin, billy graham, muslims, christians, madmen, and scientists alike. Your evaluation mechanism is known to be error-prone, yet you insist that it is all you have to evaluate your claims. You provide no basis for any confidence that anything a materialist system (person) produces (says, believes) is true, because it cannot be arbited by anything but the system itself.William J Murray
August 26, 2011
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GEM of TKI, I now take it that your argument is not a step by step geometrical proof, but an attempt at a persuasive argument with some interdependence between the steps, but where the failure of any single step is not necessarily fatal, and some of the steps are conclusions which shouldn't be criticized without first addressing earlier steps that provide the context. I hope I have managed to phrase this in a fair way that is not just dismissive. But in fairness, I should not have to refute each step, but should be able in some cases to just address how persuasive it is on its own and in context. I admit I am now getting a bit confused by the mixing of numbers and letters on the steps, I will try to address both. a) Our deterministic universe is governed by physical laws is nonlinear dynamic and chaotic, and not necessarily "random". It possesses lots of examples of spontaneous order and mathmatically describable regularities. b) not much to disagree with here, but consider this generalization: "mechanical necessity acting on material objects" Lets not forget that life is not just passive in this universe, even though life is acted upon by physical forces, it also utilizes chemical energy to act within and upon its environment. c) Crick is wrong. Thoughts can be understood in other ways. We knew a lot about biology before we were very good at reducing it to chemistry. Hunter gatherer groups knew a lot about their environments even though they had anthropomorphized natural phenomena and animals. The scientific assumption is that we can make progress in understanding and predicting the world through certain disciplines of thought and method, and that this may eventually include reducing thought to electrical interactions and chemistry. However, thoughts are so complex they will probably never be "understood" in the sense of being comprehended at the chemical level, but they are considered and assumed to be subject to the same physical laws as the rest of the universe. But there is no evidence of intent at the at the level of the physical laws, so Crick is correct in that regard. Intent is a property we recognize in ourselves and infer to exist in other life forms. I've already addressed Philip Johnson's rebuttal, no exception needs to be made for the theorist, Crick's preface doesn't need to be dismissively phrased that his thoughts "consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules". The assembly of nerve cells has a complex organization, and as I mentioned before, Crick could also cite his training, education and the mental disciplines involving evidence and reasoning to support his conclusions. Since Crick is utilizing chemical energy he can act on his environment. There is no inherent contradiction in a being subject to physical laws being able to comment upon the underlying physics of his thoughts. You need to do more than imply there is. d) The statement here is selective in its emphasis: "These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]." It emphasizes the passive elements, but the life form is acting itself, so influences its own development and a nonlinear dynamic relationship with its environment. But there is not much to dispute here, I assume it is a stepping stone to e) e) There were lots of contradictions in marxism, of course they had somehow escaped their conditioning so they must not have considered it absolute, in fact their statements about others being subject to their conditioning was an attempt to persuade them to look at their pre-concieved notions critically and to change them. Marxists were also hypocritical in the beliefs in historical determinism, which they weren't willing to wait for and felt a need to accelerate. The dialectic was imbued with supernatural force despite their identification as materialists. Their hegelian philosophical lineage was demonstrated to ultimately reduce to nihilism by Max Stirner (nee Johann Caspar Schmidt). Yes, Freudian's used dismissive rhetoric too but like the marxists they accepted that the past conditioning could be understood and escaped. Behaviorist fundamentalism has been rejected in current science. Jane Goodall was part of the revolution that made it acceptable to infer intent and internal mental states in animals again. It is a stretch to assume that these hypothesized analogies imply anything for something as complex as the firing and organization of Crick's neurons. f) I've advanced the idea that religion is adaptive many times myself. Religion is just one of many examples of the unreliability of our reasoning faculties and alternatively their lack of dominance in our beliefs, feeling and thinking. But because these failings are all too real, they are not just a problem for "the assumption of evolutionary materialism." You are intending to imply that examples of human irrationality and unreliability of their reasoning call into question not the "assumption" but the conclusion of evolutionary materialism. The examples of the errors that human thinking is prone to are numerous. Statistical reasoning is poor. Many logical fallacies have persuasive power. But all this indicates, as I previously noted, is that "thinking is hard", and but there is no contradiction in the idea that mental disciplines and scientific methodology improve our models of the universe and our ability to predict and control it. g) What is good for the goose is good for that gander? Turnabout is fair play, but is it rigorously defensible here. Religion is around because it is adaptive despite being irrational, therefore, materialism may just be adaptive and irrational too? Has materialism hasn't been an important part of human thinking for much of written history, much less evolutionary history. What about it is adaptive? As a model that allows better prediction and control of the environment it may well be adaptive. There is no reason to assume that it is irrational just because religion is. Since it also espouses a mental discipline, it may actually result in more practice of rational thinking, with practice may come improvement. We've already discussed whether any of models are ever the "truth", the main thing is that they can work, they can aid in predicting and controlling our environment as perceived through our senses. Even general relativity is probably not the "truth", is has singularities like black holes and the big bang, and problems patched up by dark matter and dark energy. Ultimately, the "truth" may be just what works. h) Yes, under materialism our brains and thoughts don't violate the laws of physics. In that sense our beliefs, including our beliefs in materialism and religion are "caused". I admit that religion and materialism are alike in that respect. I admit that had I been raised by Islamic parents I would probably believe in Allah, I might even have been a Christian in this culture if I had been raised in a protestant family. I was raised in a Catholic family and earnestly tried to be good, but God was harsh and judgemental, at least as exemplified by the humans representing him. As a would be saint, I had the temerity to go to confession without anything to confess after a whole week. It turned out this was the even worse sin of pride, I got harshly rebuked and assigned several times the usual number of Hail Marys and Our Fathers. But I also had parents who valued education and encouraged my love of science and nature. It was a relief when I no longer had to believe in such a God, and could continue to peruse my search for truth and love of knowledge. My beliefs are a product of my past, but I subject them to mental disciplines, that assure me they are more evidence based, if not more "true". i) I've already discussed Haldane at length. Yes, because his brain is sound chemically doesn't mean his thoughts are sound logically. However, Haldane's musing is not evidence unless you are arguing from authority. If you are going to cite him for having "no reason" to believe his brain is composed of atoms and "no reason" to believe his beliefs are true, you should supplement it with evidence because his authority is not conclusive. He may well be correct, HE had "no reason", but that doesn't mean that WE have no reason, we might have looked a little harder and we have the advange of a few decades more scientific advancement. Why are you citing this person? j) "The conclusions of such “arguments” may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or “warranted” them." A brain forged by having to work over millions of years of evolution doesn't work by "astonishingly lucky coincidence". I've discussed this extensively. k) I agree with this one. I made the same point about General Relativity above. l) I agree, origin hypotheses are hampered lack of access to and preservation of relevant evidence. o) what happened to m) and n)? "More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists’ theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited." No, how has this been discredited? Who are the they, Haldane's musing decades ago? Cricks chemistry and neuron statements don't discredit it. Scientific reasoning and inference have been very successful and productive. p) "Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.”. Hmmm, no rather than illusion, reason remains a well developed, productive and successful mental discipline that works! There is no "thus" here, in the deductive or inferential sense. q) "In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic." This wasn't difficult to "escape" at all. r) "So, while materialists — just like the rest of us — in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)" This is a generalization, but it may be more true of materialists than most, they do "routinely rely upon the credibility of reasoning". However, most probably don't struggle with these issues at all. I've have seldom seen them address the implications of the laws of physics for the credibility of their reasoning. But, despite your arguement they don't seem very problematic. Brains and thinking work pretty well for us and many animals, people don't tend to question things that work much, they focus more on things that aren't working. Perhaps that has survival value. I think you have been extremely unfair in claiming that I have been avoiding or failing to address your issues. In going through this I recalled at the time and now, how I had actually addressed nearly all the issues, except perhaps the Marxism and the real conclusions p, q, and r. But the Marxism wasn't a particular relevant or strong part of your argument, and from how I responded to your other points, my response to p, q and r could hardly be a surprise. Your "thus"es were not thuses for me.africangenesis
August 26, 2011
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