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The Fallacy of Creeping Omniscience

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Yesterday, in his “Critics agree with Dembski” post, Eric Holloway raised the issue of a fallacy that is so significant in the design theory context that it deserves its own name: The Fallacy of Creeping Omniscience.

He provided a description that with some minor adjustments, can serve as a working definition:

It is commonly noted that when smart or educated or famous, or wealthy or powerful people or the like achieve expertise or noted success in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge. When listening to smart or educated or famous, or wealthy or powerful people, it is always wise to take this into consideration, and listen most closely to their opinions about what they’re carefully studied. (But, even on those topics where they have genuine expertise, we should note that no expert is better than his or her facts, assumptions and reasoning.)

It is always helpful to give a key example or two, and the now notorious NYRB 1997 clip from Professor Richard Lewontin makes a very good first example:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[ –> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . .
To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[ –> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[ –> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[ –> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[ –> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. (NB: if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words JUSTIFY the above, kindly follow the link and read the full clip and notes.)]

No wonder, Philip Johnson corrected:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

As a second example, Professor William Provine’s 1998 Darwin Day Address at University of Tennessee is useful:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . 

The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . .

Natural selection is a process leading every species almost certainly to extinction . . . Nothing could be more uncaring than the entire process of organic evolution. Life has been on earth for about 3.6 billion years. In less that one billion more years our sun will turn into a red giant. All life on earth will be burnt to a crisp. Other cosmic processes absolutely guarantee the extinction of all life anywhere in the universe. When all life is extinguished, no memory whatsoever will be left that life ever existed.  [[Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract).]

When major and highly contentious philosophical assertions or assumptions appear “obvious” to adherents of a given theory or model or ideology, that is usually a sign that they have been embedded in it from the beginning and have been swallowed unreflectively.

In this case, following the same errors made by Lewontin, not only has the circle of a priori materialism been begged, so that we move in effect from science “must” think in a materialistic circle — not! — to materialistic science determines what is real, to therefore no God exists, but as a direct worldview consequence ethics has been reduced to radical relativism, and thence to might or manipulation makes “right.” Just as Plato warned against 2,350 years ago in The Laws, Bk X.

These are bad enough, but the real tickler is in Provine’s fifth consequence: freedom to decide and think for oneself has now vanished in the evolutionary materialist circle. While he desperately tries to make this seem to be a good thing (he actually says: “We will all live in a better society when the myth of free will is dispelled . . .”), he overlooks a pretty direct consequence, the disintegration of freedom to think for oneself above one’s genetic, socio-cultural and institutional conditioning. For if one is not free, one is a plaything of blind mechanical necessity and accidents of circumstance that may lead one to things that are adaptive in the sense of promoting reproductive success [including by way of career and bank account success] but that comes at a stiff price indeed. Professor Provine has unwittingly undercut his own ability to think and reason and know above and beyond delusions rooted in genes and memes that happen to help jumped-up apes from East Africa struggling in a Malthusian world to have more offspring. Chance Variation and Natural Selection, multiplied by conscious or unconscious eugenics forces in cultures, reward survival and reproductive success, not truth. (And of course, there is the little challenge that the survival of the fittest does not explain the arrival of the fittest (starting with first, cell-based life), but that is a topic for another post.)

To see the full  scope of that price, let us turn to a third witness and case,  Nobel Prize holder Sir Francis Crick in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [[Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

No wonder, Philip Johnson rebutted, in his 1995 Reason in the Balance, that Dr Crick should therefore be willing to preface his books: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” (In short, as Prof Johnson then went on to say: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.”

In short, reduction to self-referential incoherence and absurdity.

In each of these cases, a well-known scientific and/or academic figure, has traipsed beyond what he has primarily studied, and is essaying, unbeknownst, into deep philosophical waters. Only, to find himself caught up in swirling currents and tossing waves of question-begging and self-referential incoherence.

The root problem is that materialist myth-making while wearing a lab coat is still myth-making, and most of today’s scientists and the like have little or no exposure to, training in or capability to use the techniques that are relevant to critical analysis of worldviews and cultural agendas,where also the border between science and philosophy is rather fuzzy.

It would greatly help if high school and college education in science embedded some basic exposure to philosophy of science themes, and related epistemology, logic and general critical awareness; without imposing evolutionary materialism — today’s reigning orthodoxy — as a censoring a priori. END

Comments
What are you describing as censorship? Is it that scientific journals only publish materialism based peer review papers? They may be less open to intelligent design publications than they should be, at the same time, I can see how they would censor the result that something must be designed, just by default because the issue being studied presents difficulties and there isn't an alternate explanation other than design yet. But I would generally allow publication of results reporting the interesting cases, with the difficulties as the "result", and any design inference would have to be in the "discussion" part of the paper, unless there is evidence of the presence and action of the designer itself. The "censorship" of non-science in scientific journals is hardly an indictment of materialism as a world view. There are other venues to make non-scientific claims that are still respectable such as journals of philosophy and theology.africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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Why does the material brain have to recognize flaws in its programming? A computer program can be made to recognize errors and deviations from its goals, can construct maps or models of terrain and navigate, detect when a trajectory or route isn't working and plot another when conditions change. A material brain can correct its models which are working to ones that work better. "Programming" can be robust to errors. And the type of errors we that are relevent to these conclusions are not necessarily programming rather than model errors. If the intellectual stance of the materialist is "the model works", rather than "I don't know", and your statement is that "I don't know" is the only logically consistent stance, then you should be able to show the contradiction in the alternate stance that "the model works". Where is the contradition?africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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Since when is physics an error prone mechanism? For physical "truth", a logic consistent with the physical world would seen appropriate.africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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You took my generalization and specified it; which AG should mark as a strength common to all of your posts.CannuckianYankee
August 25, 2011
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F/N: let's take the first block of the argument I have given above:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or “supervenes” on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure — the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick’s claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as “thoughts,” “reasoning” and “conclusions” can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And — as we saw above — would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain?
1 --> a and b summarise the core assumptions and implications of evolutionary materialism. This should not be controversial, the materialist sees the world as being a closed material system, in which what happens has causal antecedents within the system. 2 --> c simply applies that to the particular region of matter between our ears. 3 --> d explains these as being rooted in the physical, through the genetic and sociocultural. 4 --> e provides cases in point, showing by practical cases how the self-referential incoherence emerges as a direct consequence of a to d. Going on:
f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent “delusion” is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it “must” — by the principles of evolution — somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, “must” also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this “meme” in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence.
5 --> f and g bring out the case of the accusation of mass delusion for the religious [widely believed by materialists], and points out that he issue of genes and memes giving rise of adaptive, survival enhancing behaviour that materialists hold is not accurate to reality, is then brought home as implying the lack of credibility of the mind on materialist premises; which is then cast back to the materialists as a question of self-referential incoherence. 6 --> h cites Dawkins on the matter,using the same sauce for the goose for the gander too. If thoughts are driven and controlled by unconscious forces irrelevant to truth and rationality so that we have no free will but are determined by deep seated material cause-effect not logical and epistemological ground-consequent factors, once we move up to the sort of level we are addressing then materialism is in the same boat as the much despised religion. [The strand that deals with the "scientific" pretensions will come up later in the list.] So, let us proceed further:
i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the “thoughts” we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the “conclusions” we reach — without residue — must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such “arguments” may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or “warranted” them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.)
7 --> i cites Haldane's summary of this sort of determinism in chemical terms. 8 --> j summarises, and the bracketed remark highlights that it is rationality on materialistic premises that is being deconstructed. Not that materialists do not reason, but that heir system's worldview level roots decisively undermine their claim to be rational. And,
k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that — as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows — empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one’s beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity . . . . o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists’ theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists — just like the rest of us — in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)
9 --> Skipping over the further example of Lewontin, we see that the concept of empirical support to a conceptual claim coming from scientific findings, requires the reasoning process in a context of being freely able to follow the evidence on ground-consequent steps not mere physical cause-effect bonds. (This is close to TGP's point that linguistic and logical connexions are utterly distinct from physical ones.) 10 --> So we see materialists borrowing the confidence in reason from the Judaeo-Christian theists who founded modern science, and then trying to replace the worldview foundations that gave that confidence, only to find that their own proposed foundations undermine rationality itself. 11 --> We can safely add here, that appeals to "emergence" are little more than word-magic. _____________ So, now AG, where has this fallen apart, and why? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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I would adjust slightly, Improper or hasty generalisation.kairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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AG: A step by step case fails if any step fails. 1 --> if the argument is a simple, geometry proof type deductive chain, that is so. 2 --> but if we are dealing with an inductive, cumulative argument that is NOT so in general, as the strands of argument may interact like the short weak fibres in a rope that twist together and grip in a way that is mutually reinforcing, so twist then counter twist cumulates to give a rope. 3 --> in short, by a picture I am pointing to a case of the fallacy of composition. 4 --> Further to this, you have not actually shown that the step by step exposition has failed, you are snipping out a concluding summary and strawmannising it as I pointed out above. 5 --> in particular, you failed to address the specific cases of the precise sort of self-referential incoherence I highlighted. Start with the marxists, Freudians, behaviourists, Crick, Lewontin and others of like ilk. 6 --> Also, you have not engaged the wider context where I have pointed to Hasker, Plantinga and Reppert. I am presenting at 101 survey level, but there is a lot of meat behind it. 7 --> So, if you are serious, you will break apart the argument and show how the stages fail to mutually support and how they fail to have INDUCTIVE strength in themselves, where that is relevant. We are not just dealing with a simple deductive chain. 8 --> in particular remember the underlying context of all this is inference to best explanation at worldviews level. 9 --> And the reductio is not just a matter of theory it is a matter that I have had to deal with on the ground for decades, starting with the Marxists. 10 --> the easiest way would be to clip the argument and then show how the steps fall apart, one by one. (Let's just say, it's been tried by others, before . . . let's see if you have better luck.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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AG: Unfortunately, we have seen all too many sock-puppets for the agendas we are dealing with try to ingratiate themselves with us in much the way you are speaking, while spouting the standard talking points. Only when we see what comes across as serious two-way dialogue that genuinely tries to deal with the matters on the merits, does it begin to appear that we are dealing with something genuine, at this point. Such is the legacy of the Alinsky school of thought that has been injected into the discourse on these matters tied to origins science. To get an idea of what is going on, contrast the articles on Intelligent Design in New World Encyclopedia and Wikipedia. If the latter comes across to you as a fair minded introduction, you've been had. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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"Now I often do take a contrary view when people claim certainty or rigor or make generalizations that I don’t think should go unquestioned, because even if I agree with their conclusion, I may not agree with their certainty or justification." I'm not sure you realize how incoherent this statement is; especially given your recent posts. To claim that taking a contrarian view against other peoples' "certainty" requires a certainty that taking a contrarian view is what should be your position. To question others' views still requires some certainty that is contrary; otherwise it's simply skepticism without direction. Also, I don't find that KF has made any generalizations. He's quite clear about what he means with references and clear argument. A generalization is to make a blanket statement about a phenomenon that applies to more than it's intent and without reference to anything that can be examined. . (Philosophy / Logic) Logic the derivation of a general statement from a particular one, formally by prefixing a quantifier and replacing a subject term by a bound variable. If the quantifier is universal (universal generalization) the argument is not in general valid; if it is existential (existential generalization) it is valid 5. (Philosophy / Logic) Logic any statement ascribing a property to every member of a class (universal generalization) or to one or more members (existential generalization) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/generalization I fail to see in anything that KF has written (particularly regarding your own posts) that fits the definition of generalization. And if you question his certainty about this, you have to question your own certainty that they are generalizations in order to be consistent. i.e., don't question others' certainty without first questioning your own.CannuckianYankee
August 25, 2011
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Being a "materialist" at a supposedly materialist site, pharyngula my positions often were contrarian. Now I often do take a contrary view when people claim certainty or rigor or make generalizations that I don't think should go unquestioned, because even if I agree with their conclusion, I may not agree with their certainty or justification. I didn't mean to imply that ID and creation science were social movements, they were the "forums", I attended. The social "community" (not movement), I'm a part of is Christian, yes, they tolerate non-believers in that community.africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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Perhaps the practice of trying to take a contrarian view is not serving you well. If you're truly trying to understand, you might want to state clearly where you agree and where you disagree. That might help you to actually build the bridges you claim to be concerned with, All I've seen from you so far are the familiar talking points we routinely address on here from outsiders; which in my estimation will not lead to any successful bridge building. Incidentally, not that it's that important, but Creation Science and ID are not social movements, so how could you be a part of a movement socially that is not a social movement? You either support the movement or you don't, in which case you are not a part of it. Let's be clear about that.CannuckianYankee
August 25, 2011
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More insight on this can be gained here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/venemas-epilogue-a-response/CannuckianYankee
August 25, 2011
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Bruce, Well stated. "I know, therefore I'm more than what I think I know I am."CannuckianYankee
August 25, 2011
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I was thinking exactly the same thing when I first read this post the other day. It seems like Dawkins thinks he's an expert not only on zoology, but politics and theology as well. Oh, and parenting so as to avoid child abuse.CannuckianYankee
August 25, 2011
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ad hominem? I'm unaware of any talking points, I've done my own analysis all along, of course, I wasn't born in a vacuum. I have been to Creation Science and ID forums, and read the literature, both because I'm part of that community socially and because I like challenges and I like refining the consistency of my world view and I am curious apparent contradictions. I've met Dr Behe and Dr. Humphreys. I do my own analyses. If these look like talking points you've previously seen, perhaps those ultimtely originated with me, or there is just a logical or inferential convergence. I try to build bridges and increase understanding between communities. Taking a contrarian viewpoint got me banned at pharygula, even though I was always civil and participating in good faith.africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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GEM of TKI, I was actually granting that you were presenting a step by step case, which makes this criticism irrelevant: "which you patently cannot cogently address step by step so you want to excuse snipping out of context and strawmannising" A step by step case fails if any step fails. It is more efficient to address selected steps to show the problems with the argument. Some of the other steps may be fully accepted or conceded and the argument still fails. If your argument is truly rigorous, alternative explanations or interpretations of that step also cause that step to fail. I think is this selected step, you are trying to argue from the disagreeableness of the conclusion to the premises in the previous steps must be disagreeable as well: "4 –> Onlookers, how many times do I need to show, step by step then state the conclusion, how evolutionary materialism reduces itself to self-referential incoherence on the credibility of mind, and that it leads to amorality and might makes right nihilism? " Both the cartesian and hegelian branches of philosophy lead to nihilism, so I concede that part of the point. But there is more than one kind of nihilism, in fact, the situation is what we make of it. I had already mentioned at this site, although perhaps it wasn't in our thread main thread, that nihilism may well lead to the classical liberal recognition that men are not fit to rule other men without standards, checks and balances, and to the reciprocal agreement to rights. Nothing, not even might, can "make right", in the sense that "right" is being used in philosophical nihilism (call it materialistic nihilism if you prefer), "might" can just do what it does. Of course there are other alternatives to the classical liberal social contract type of solution, there is tradition and cultural relativism, and of course, the chaos and license that you are alluding to. But there is a might vs right issue in theology also, if God determines what is right, then that is "might makes right", but then God isn't "good" by some independent standard, so there is the problem of what it means for God to be good, and whether a "good" that God made by might has any real moral force. So what do we make of your step number 4? It it an irreplacable cog in an argument, the denouement, or an aside with its own persuasive purpose? Does what comes after really follow? Does what comes after falter if nihilism isn't necessarily "might makes right"?africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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AG: Kindly look again, and in the context of responding to the a priori Lewontinian materialism that is force fitted unto the evidence so IT CENSORS 'PERMISSIBLE" INTERPRETATIONS. You are trying to twist what is plainly being confessed into pretzels to escape the implication of outright censorship. It is that implication that Johnson was responding to, by highlighting that once the a priori is accepted, then something rather like darwinism is in the "must be so" category. Notice how Lewontin says that in the circles he knows, it seems SELF_EVIDENT that the a priori materialist approach puts us in touch with reality. That is an unwitting sign of question-begging being mistaken for that which is true and undeniably so on pain of absurdity, like 2 + 3 = 5. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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Africangenesis said:
Yes, “And if materialism is true, then SOME [emphasis mine] materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction” but that particular theory must be consistent with the evidence.
You say that as if logic can be used to evaluate statements produced by materialist physics, but under materialism, logic is just another set of thoughts and statements produced by material forces. You're using ruler A to verify that ruler A correctly measures things, which is self-referential nonsense. Logic can only arbit and verify truthful statements IF logic is independent of that which produced the statements; if the same faulty, error-prone mechanism (physics) produces both the statement and the logic employed to evaluate it, why bother?William J. Murray
August 25, 2011
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Yes, "And if materialism is true, then SOME [emphasis mine] materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction" but that particular theory must be consistent with the evidence. The "regardless of the evidence", gives the impression that this is an inconsistency, when the deduction assumed we were restricting ourselves to evidence based theories in the first place, i.e., what you are calling materialism. So, in no way, is it really "regardless of the evidence".africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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Well, certainly atheists have no corner on being certain that they are correct, but most atheists I know are pretty certain that there is no God and that the Creation is entirely material. Those that are less than certain tend to be agnostics. But that is not really my point. Rather, it is that materialism undermines any confidence that materialism is true, since that conclusion is the product of a material brain, which cannot recognize any flaws in its "programming", just as any computer program is incapable of recognizing flaws in its programming. The only logically consistent intellectual stance of a materialist is "I don't know." In fact, it is my belief that no materialist really believes materialism is true when it comes to their own power of reason. Deep within, they know that their minds are not the product of a material brain at all, but they refuse to recognize the conflict between their stated beliefs and their actual intellectual mode of operation.Bruce David
August 25, 2011
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Very well said!kairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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F/N: of course all of this is really a matter of responding to the latest sock-puppet talking points. They are not meant to convince the un-convince-able [the point of a sock puppet is to push talking points, not to actually seriously discuss a matter], but to show that there is some warrant for the conclusion that the talking points are fallacious.kairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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Note: A Plantinga lecture relevant to the above, here. Useful snippet (but do read context): ___________ >> B. DARWIN'S DOUBT One possibility: perhaps Darwin and Churchland mean to propose that a certain conditional probability is low: the probability of human cognitive faculties' being reliable, given that human cog faculties have been produced by evolution (Dawkin's blind evolution, unguided by the hand of God or any other person). If (naturalistic) evolution is true, then our cognitive faculties will have resulted from blind mechanisms like natural selection, working on sources of genetic variation such as random genetic mutation. And the ultimate purpose or function (Churchland's 'chore') of our cognitive faculties, if indeed they have a purpose or function, will be survival - of individual, species, gene, or genotype. But then it is unlikely that they have the production of true beliefs as a function. So the probability or our faculties' being reliable, given naturalistic evolution, would be fairly low. Popper and Quine, on the other side, judge that probability fairly high. P(R/N&E) N is metaphysical naturalism. (Crucial to metaphysical naturalism, of course, is the view that there is no such person as the God of traditional theism.) E: human cognitive faculties have arisen by way of evolution (as conceived by contemporary evolutionary science). R: the claim that our cognitive faculties are reliable And the question is: What is the probability of R, given N&E? Darwin and Churchland propose that this probability is relatively low, while Quine and Popper think it fairly high. 1. THE DOUBT DEVELOPED Suppose we think, first, not about ourselves and our ancestors, but about a hypothetical population of creatures rather like ourselves on a planet similar to Earth. (Darwin proposed that we think about another species, such as monkeys.) Suppose these creatures have cognitive faculties, hold beliefs, change beliefs, make inferences, and so on; and suppose these creatures have arisen by way of the selection processes endorsed by contemporary evolutionary thought. What is the probability that their faculties are reliable? What is P(R/N&E), specified, not to us, but to them? According to Quine and Popper, rather high: belief is connected with action in such a way that extensive false belief would lead to maladaptive behavior, in which case it is likely that the ancestors of those creatures would have displayed that pathetic but praiseworthy tendency Quine mentions. But: first, perhaps it is likely that their behavior is (or was) adaptive; but nothing follows about their beliefs. Everything depends upon the way in which their behavior is related to their beliefs. (a) maybe their beliefs do not cause their behavior. (Epiphenomenalism: T H Huxley) If so, they would be invisible to evolution; and then the fact that they arose during the evolutionary history of these beings would confer no probability oat all on the idea that they are mostly true, or mostly nearly true, rather than wildly false. Indeed, the probability of their being mostly true would have to be estimated as fairly low; the probability that a randomly chosen large set of propositions contains vastly more true beliefs than false beliefs is low. (It couldbe that one of these creatures believes that he is at that elegant, bibulous Oxford dinner, when in fact he is slogging his way through some primeval swamp, desperately fighting off hungry crocodiles.) JM Smith: "A few years ago, he wrote that he had never understood why organism have feelings. After all, orthodox biologists believe that behavior, however complex, is governed entirely by biochemistry and that the attendant sensations - fear, pain, wonder, love - are just shadows cast by that biochemistry, not themselves vital to the organism's behavior . . . . Time De. '92 (b) beliefs do indeed cause behavior, but only by virtue of their electro-chemical properties, not by virtue of their content. This possibility is said to be the "received opinion" by Rob Cummins (Meaning and Mental Representation); if you accept materialism re minds, it's hard to see any alternative. (c) A third possibility: it could be that belief cause behavior by way of content but is maladaptive. Again, low. (d) the beliefs or our hypothetical creatures cause their behavior and also adaptive. Probability (on this possibility together with N&E) that their cognitive faculties are reliable? Not as high as you might think. Beliefs don't causally produce behavior by themselves; it is beliefs, desires, and other factors that do so together. Then the problem is that clearly there will be any number of different patterns of belief and desire that would issue in the same action; and among those there will be many in which the beliefs are wildly false. Paul is a prehistoric hominid; the exigencies of survival call for him to display tiger avoidance behavior. There will be many behaviors that are appropriate: fleeing, for example, or climbing a steep rock face, or crawling into a hole too small to admit the tiger, or leaping into a handy lake. Pick any such appropriately specific behavior B. Paul engages in B, we think, because, sensible fellow that he is, he has an aversion to being eaten and believes that B is a good means of thwarting the tiger's intentions. But clearly this avoidance behavior could result from a thousand other belief-desire combinations: indefinitely many other belief-desire systems fit B equally well . . . . But now suppose we return to the person convinced of N&E who is agnostic about P(R/N&E): something similar goes for him. He is in the same position with respect to any belief B of his, as is the above believer in God. He is in the same condition as the person who comes to think she has been created by that Cartesian evil demon. So he too has a defeater for B, and a good reason for being agnostic with respect to it. 3.THE ARGUMENT Now for the argument that it is irrational to believe N&E: P(R/N&E) is either low or inscrutable; in either case (if you accept N&E) you have a defeater for R, and therefore for any other belief B you might hold; but B might be N&E itself; so one who accepts N&E has a defeater for N&E, a reason to doubt or be agnostic with respect to it. If he has no independent evidence, N&E is self-defeating and hence irrational. Could he get a defeater rot this dereater - a defeater-defeater? Maybe by doing some science, by, e.g., determining by scientific means that his faculties really are reliable? But of course that would presuppose that his faculties are reliable. Thomas Reid (Essays on the Intellectual Powers of Man): If a man's honesty were called into question, it would be ridiculous to refer to the man's own word, whether he be honest or not. The same absurdity there is in attempting to prove, by any kind of reasoning, probable or demonstrative, that our reason is not fallacious, since the very point in question is, whether reasoning may be trusted.(276) Is there any sensible way at all in which he can argue for R? Any argument he might produce will have premises; and these premises, he claims, give him good reason to believe R. But of course he has the very same defeater for each of those premises that he has for R so this defeater can't be defeated. We could also put it like this: any argument he offers, for R, is circular or question begging. Naturalistic evolution gives its adherents a reason for doubting that our beliefs are mostly true; perhaps they are mostly mistaken; for the very reason for mistrusting our cognitive faculties generally, will be a reason for mistrusting the faculties that produce belief in the goodness of the argument. Hence the devotee of N&E has a defeater D for N&E - a defeater, furthermore, that can't be defeated. So N&E is self-defeating, and can't rationally be accepted. One who contemplates accepting N, and is torn, let's say, between N and theism, would reason as follows: if I were to accept N, I would have good and ultimately defeated reason to be agnostic about N; so I shouldn't accept it. (An argument for the irrationality of N, not for its falsehood.) The traditional theist, on the other hand, has no corresponding reason for doubting that it is a purpose of our cognitive systems to produce true beliefs, nor any reason for thinking the probability of a belief's being true, given that it is a product of her cognitive faculties, is low or inscrutable. She may indeed endorse some form of evolution; but if she does, it will be a form of evolution guided and orchestrated by God. And qua traditional theist -- qua Jewish, Moslem, or Christian theist - she believes that God is the premier knower and has created us human beings in his image, an important part of which involves his giving them what is needed to have knowledge, just as he does. The conclusion to be drawn, therefore, is that the conjunction of naturalism with evolutionary theory is self-defeating: it provides for itself an undefeated defeater. It is therfore unacceptable and irrational. >> ___________kairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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Unfortunately, many who argue for Darwinism and materialism today don’t even consider their arguments to be philosophical, but rather make the claim that their position is based on empirical observation and facts (as per recent is/ought arguments). They don’t realize that science, empiricism itself, and the logic necessary to arbit empirical exploration are all branches of philosophy, and are necessarily rooted in the metaphysical assumptions of a deeper philosophical context. They believe they have discarded metaphysics, but in fact all they have done is discard the only means they have of real self-reflection and error-correction. As Lewontin said, materialist empiricism becomes not one way among many that is moderated by deeper philosophical considerations and first principles; it is cut off from its supporting and limiting grounding and placed on a pedestal, becoming the only way with no context or peers to ground its influence. (Moderator - will you please approve my new posting name - William J Murray, without the period after J - so I can use that name from now on? Thank you.)William J. Murray
August 25, 2011
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Note: I clip AG from above and interleave comments, correcting the errors: ______________ >> selective quoting? Perhaps I was a bit flippant, but I was responding to: ““[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” And other such statements that are mere assertions, presented “point by point” as if one were purporting a rigorous logical sequence. 1 --> Dismissive assertion that fails to acknowledge, much less respond to the actual logic. While your response has been more repetition and characterizing mine as unresponsive, 2 --> If you ignore, snip out of context and strawmannise, what must I do other than to show to at least the onlooker what you are studiously ducking or distorting? with me left to guess which were the particulars you thought should be persuasive. 3 --> If this were not so sad, it would be laughable. You have a connected, step by step argument, which you patently cannot cogently address step by step so you want to excuse snipping out of context and strawmannising. I had been hoping you would get to your point 4 --> Onlookers, how many times do I need to show, step by step then state the conclusion, how evolutionary materialism reduces itself to self-referential incoherence on the credibility of mind, and that it leads to amorality and might makes right nihilism? [As in, those who so often push it step out beyond whatever scientific competence they have to beg worldview level questions and end in absurdities, as the original post for this thread highlights.] 5 --> Again, the answer is obvious: no number of times will suffice to correct the true believer in evolutionary materialism dressed up in a holy lab coat. However if enough of us see though the fallacies, eventually the repeated failure of the system will lead the adherents to begin to ask themselves, why this is not working. , but perhaps this statement is finally it: “Of course, the real issue that would hold for a jumped up bit of pond scum by way of being an ape emigrated from the East African savanahs, is that the imagined forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity have never been shown on observation to have the capacity to create linguistic, much less logical much less epistemological competence. That key question is being spectacularly begged [as well, the trick of answering a point in another thread is revealing on the lack of confidence in the answer], and the very act of objection is showing the want of an answer to whence cometh this gift of language, and of knowing, reasoning mind.” 6 --> Again, picking out a summary conclusion without addressing the framework in which it arises. I am quite confident in the answer. I agree that this has never been shown by observation. 7 --> An apt statement of belief in a priori materialism, and of intent to restate its problems as though they were solutions. As to an “answer”, we’d have to make do with plausible hypotheses that these characteristics while seemingly dramatic in their consequences, are not qualitatively that different in related animals. 8 --> neatly vague, as per the passive aggressive rulebook of deniably ambiguous statements. 9 --> If by this you actually mean that the a priori materialistic evolutionary materialist framework for body plan level macroevolution is well warranted on empirically observed data, I suggest onlookers that a quick look here on will help disabuse the informed onlooker of that notion. (Even without looking at the prior issue of origin of life, here on.) 10 --> If you do not have time to work through the full discussion and videos, at least try to watch Sternberg on whale evolution issues on population genetics and required changes, and to look at the Darwin's Dilemma embed on implications of the Cambrian Life revolution. A glance at he problems with typical icons and the reality of mosaic creatures will also help. The conceptual distance to these related animals is not as hard to bridge as that to pond scum, but even among living evidence we can see a near continuous range of complexity between the pond scum and the bonobo. 11 --> I have already linked on why the breezily rhetorically bridged gaps are not crossed on the evidence. >> _______________ Onlookers, let me know if you need more. Later GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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AG: The issue is not at all a mere assertion, when taken in context, it is a way to summarising that the argument is self referentially incoherent. It is to be noted that when you tried to address point j in my summary you did the same thing, picking out a conclusive summary out of context where it had been first grounded step by step then setting it up as a strawman to pummel. Onlookers who did not follow the actual case in more details would not know that not only is this a theoretical issue but it has been a repeated theme in historic and current cases of naturalistic accounts of rationality and mind as well as morality. In addiition on the wider issue you have yet to provide an empirically observed case that shows the origin of functionally specific complex information by blind forces of necessity and chance, but that is the usual story with evolutionary materialism: a priori lock out anything that could provide an empirically warranted account on observed sources of FSCI, then present weak and long past sell-by date icons as though they were proofs of an already a priori imposed framework. Philip Johnson's rebuke is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
Later, if more details are needed. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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F/N 3: I have taken up AG's arguments point by point here.kairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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GEM of TKI, selective quoting? Perhaps I was a bit flippant, but I was responding to: "“[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” And other such statements that are mere assertions, presented "point by point" as if one were purporting a rigorous logical sequence. While your response has been more repetition and characterizing mine as unresponsive, with me left to guess which were the particulars you thought should be persuasive. I had been hoping you would get to your point, but perhaps this statement is finally it: "Of course, the real issue that would hold for a jumped up bit of pond scum by way of being an ape emigrated from the East African savanahs, is that the imagined forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity have never been shown on observation to have the capacity to create linguistic, much less logical much less epistemological competence. That key question is being spectacularly begged [as well, the trick of answering a point in another thread is revealing on the lack of confidence in the answer], and the very act of objection is showing the want of an answer to whence cometh this gift of language, and of knowing, reasoning mind." I am quite confident in the answer. I agree that this has never been shown by observation. As to an "answer", we'd have to make do with plausible hypotheses that these characteristics while seemingly dramatic in their consequences, are not qualitatively that different in related animals. The conceptual distance to these related animals is not as hard to bridge as that to pond scum, but even among living evidence we can see a near continuous range of complexity between the pond scum and the bonobo.africangenesis
August 25, 2011
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F/N 2: It is also worth asking: do you see any significant want of committed "true believerist" certitude on the part of Lewontin, or Sagan [as alluded to], or of Crick or of Provine as cited in the original post? Why then do we see the attempt to skewer and dismiss Christians -- that is the implied context -- as blind, closed-minded "true believers"? [Cf here and here on, on the subject of core warrant for Christian faith, as a start-point; though properly a full discussion of that subject belongs to another forum than UD. But there is a reasonable right of reply to such a gross ad hominem.]kairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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F/N: here is the summary on the self-referential reductio ad absurdum of the evolutionary materialist derivation of mind, from the IOSE course (and Anti-Evo objectors, attempted schoolyard namecalling to ridicule a case does not answer to the matter on the merits), via the riots thread: __________ >> it is at least arguable that self-referential absurdity is the dagger pointing to the heart of evolutionary materialistic models of mind and its origin. This can be addressed at a more sophisticated level [[cf. Hasker in The Emergent Self (Cornell University Press, 2001), from p 64 on, e.g. here], but without losing its general force, it can also be drawn out a bit in a fairly simple way: a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or “supervenes” on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure — the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick’s claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as “thoughts,” “reasoning” and “conclusions” can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And — as we saw above — would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent “delusion” is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it “must” — by the principles of evolution — somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, “must” also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this “meme” in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the “thoughts” we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the “conclusions” we reach — without residue — must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such “arguments” may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or “warranted” them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that — as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows — empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one’s beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, “Billions and billions of demons,” it is now notorious that: . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists’ theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists — just like the rest of us — in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.) >> [Onward links are at the IOSE site] __________ My concluding comment of a few days ago still obtains: >> In short there is a problem here that cannot simply be asserted away or breezily brushed aside. Cause-effect is not ground-consequent, and the forces that drive the former and their consequences have little or nothing to do with the capacity to carry out the other by choosing to infer from grounds to their consequences in light of warrant. And in particular mechanical necessity and chance are not the ground in which soundness grows. That is, evolutionary materialism runs into a barrier of self referential incoherence when it comes to mind and morals. This you may choose to rhetorically brush aside, but that has nothing to do with its warrant. To address warrant you will have to cogently address the structure of the argument on evident facts and the way logical inferences work. While you are at it, see if you can account for the origin of the linguistic ability that lies behind that process on evo mat premises as well, especially the problem of bridging to islands of complex, specifically organised function in vast, beyond astronomical, configuration spaces. And, the laws of physics are only inferrable by beings who are significantly free to conceptualise, choose to follow steps of evidence and reason, etc. So, those laws do not exhaust reality. (The implicit assumption that they do, is the core assumption of physicalism, aka evolutionary materialism, i.e I am highlighting the question-begging circle of argument you are doing the laps in.) You are right to show that some people have a breakdown in rational ability, due to drink or drugs or defects of mind and body including brain, which only shows some necessary causal factors at work — and that too is a major problem, we often do not understand the difference between necessary and sufficient cause [cf remarks here, please do the half-burned match experiment] — think about what happens when something goes wrong with a hard drive or a wireless link. Has that suddenly made the computer only what it is as a found object, or has it shown that components put in by its designers are required to be in working order for it to work? >> GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 25, 2011
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