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The Materialists Retreat

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Update:  There is a question at the end of this post.  After the first several comments, no one has addressed it, much less answered it.  I really am curious how our readers would answer.

In another thread Paul Giem made this statement:  “While some holes in a blanket assertion that a non-ID position can explain everything have closed, others appear to have opened up, the origin of life being one of them.”  Dr. Giem was responding to a common narrative among materialists:  “Materialist explanations always advance, and the number of phenomena susceptible to non-materialist explanations grows ever smaller.”

 

Let us consider this claim in the context of origin of life (OOL) and Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE).

 

NDE has a kind of first blush plausibility.  Taxonomic hierarchies lead inexorably to the conclusion that some species are more related than others.  With a little imagination (and I lot of metaphysical incentive), we can easily picture how “numerous slight modifications” over deep time would be a plausible explanation of how the species came to be.  And indeed Darwin’s theory has had a powerful grip on the imagination of much of the world for over 150 years.

 

Darwin did not delve into the OOL issue in depth.  (Indeed, with the state of scientific tools and knowledge at his time, it was impossible for him to have done so.)  But he did speculate, and to him goes the credit for the “little warm pond” scenario.  Ever since he and countless others following him have been charmed by the seeming plausibility of this and similar OOL scenarios.

 

To gain widespread acceptance, NDE and materialist accounts of OOL have absolutely relied on the natural human tendency to accept things at face value.  And this is a shame, because it is only when one delves into the details that the assertions become less and less plausible.  It follows that the less one knows about the facts, the more plausible materialist OOL accounts and NDE are.

 

This is where Dr. Giem is certainly correct, and the traditional materialist narrative had been turned on its head.  The more we have learned (especially in recent decades), the less plausible materialist accounts of these phenomena have become.  Far from forcing non-materialist accounts to retreat, these accounts (such as ID) have actually become more plausible and attracted a growing following precisely because we know more (not less) about the facts of the matter.

 

Consider, for example, this gem from Haeckel:  “Each of us was, at the beginning of his existence, a simple globule of protoplasm, surrounded by a membrane, about 1/120 of an inch in diameter, with a firmer nucleus inside it.”  Ernst Haeckel, Last Words on Evolution (London: A. Owen & Co., 1906).

 

How quaint.  We now know that every single cell is a bio-cybernetic chemical automaton able to self-replicate, self-organize, and perform metabolic functions by means of nano-level molecular machines controlled by internal digital software stored in information rich polymers.

 

Now, I ask you under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible?

Comments
Only, per blog owner, Jerad was not banned. KFkairosfocus
October 8, 2013
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It was actually quite funny to watch Jared do his utmost to get banned by constantly badgering Barry. It was almost like he was envious of Lizzie's martyrdom (or walk of shame more like). And now, at last, Jared - after all his hard work to get banned - can finally stand tall before his materialist peanut gallery.steveO
October 8, 2013
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Timaeus:
Many of the greatest philosophers were never university professors — Bacon, Hobbes, Spinoza, Leibniz, Descartes, Hume, Rousseau.
I don't have a philosphy background myself so I'm only aware of Leibniz and Descartes because of their brilliant mathematical contributions. To think that they also count amongst the greatest philosphers! One sometimes hears "dead white guys" used as a term of disrespect towards men of history such as these, but when it comes to these gentlemen and many like them, they certainly don't seem to be making them like they used to!steveO
October 8, 2013
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AF, why can't you resist making a strawman caricature as your Parthian shot on the way out the door? KFkairosfocus
October 8, 2013
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Plato is simply one of the founders of our civilisation. Period. He should be read just for that. Then, one will discover the rest, with delight.kairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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Fox: "I hear that commenter, Jerad, has been banned at Uncommon Descent" Not true.Barry Arrington
October 7, 2013
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The first philosopher of interest to any young inquiring mind, is play-doh.Mung
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox wrote: "I'm a Republican etc." Sigh. Leave it to a biochemist to take an analogy literally, and assume I was defending monarchy. The point of the image was that some people are more important in the scheme of things, more worth listening to than others; and Plato is more worth listening to than Rorty, Sellars, Quine, Churchland, etc. So if you have time before retirement to read only one philosopher, you might as well read the best. Glad to hear you have read Herodotus. It isn't inherent in philosophy that it has to be badly written, or written in academic-speak. Academic philosophy, in the modern sense, is only a couple of hundred years old, dating back to about the time of Kant. Many of the greatest philosophers were never university professors -- Bacon, Hobbes, Spinoza, Leibniz, Descartes, Hume, Rousseau. And the extreme jargon-ridden phase of philosophy -- outside of German philosophy which was always big on jargon (Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, etc.) -- began only recently. It used to be that English and French philosophers wrote fairly clearly, for the general educated audience, not for academic specialists. Montaigne, Voltaire, Rousseau, etc. Bergson was noted for French "clarte" and his lectures were packed not only with students but with members of the public. But then in the 20th century you get pompous a-holes like Derrida and Foucault who write pretentiously and obscurely as a mark of alleged profundity. And in English philosophy, there were wonderfully clear writers -- Hobbes, Hume, Mill -- but now you have a whole mess of philosophers who want to write everything in symbolic logic or talk about Bayes' Theorem or do very abstruse philosophy of science (which generally has nothing to do with the actual practice of science). No one but specialists can -- or even want to -- read philosophy like that. And to rise in the profession you have to learn to write this jargon. It wasn't always that way. Philosophy used to be considered part of the Humanities, not as an adjunct or handmaiden of science and mathematics etc. Philosophers were supposed to be articulate and communicative, and some of them were even inspiring. Modern academic philosophy, however, has become just another technical profession. And if you are going to study something that is dry and technical that looks more like Mathematics than like the Humanities, you might as well study engineering or math or computer programming -- where you will make a lot more money than you will as a philosophy professor (or more likely as a cab driver with a Ph.D., as philosophy jobs are few and far between). I certainly would not describe Russell's writings as big on "humility" though I agree with you that he could write very clearly. I grant that Russell was less shallow than the modern New Atheists I spoke of; however, he still was a shallow thinker on matters of politics, ethics, and religion, regardless of how good he was at logic and mathematics. Wittgenstein, his former student, pointed this out. Nonetheless, I concede that Russell was far *smarter* than any of the New Atheists, and more broadly educated and cultured as well. But then, a Cambridge-trained English peer who hobnobbed with the elite philosophers and scientists and other thinkers of the realm is likely to be more cultured than American vulgarians like Provine or Coyne or Myers or Shallit, or Brit vulgarians like Dawkins and Hitchens. I am well aware that Shaw was a playwright. But one doesn't have to be an academic philosopher to have philosophical ideas or make philosophical arguments. Indeed, philosophical ideas are often better expressed in works of art than in treatises. Certainly Shaw was familiar with the philosophical currents of his day, including the ideas of Nietzsche and Bergson, and philosophical ideas fill his plays (and his even longer prefaces to those plays). I've seen many productions of Shakespeare, featuring world-class actors and actresses such as Maggie Smith. No disagreement with you there. My point was that among the great writers of the human race -- including Shakespeare -- Plato ranks very high. Even as literature, aside from the philosophical contents, the dialogues are extremely carefully crafted. And of course Plato's influence upon art, literature, theology, political theory, etc. is incalculable. One should read Plato for the same reason that one listens to Mozart or goes to look at Chartres or the Louvre or watches Shakespeare -- even aside from Plato's intrinsic value as a philosopher, which is very great. Anyhow, best wishes.Timaeus
October 7, 2013
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gpuccio:
Alternatively, it could have evolved from stretches of non coding posts.
Even we trolls have a part to play in God's grand design!Mung
October 7, 2013
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Just to add to the retreat, I hear that commenter, Jerad, has been banned at Uncommon Descent. I think I too will retreat and leave you guys (not many women -why is that?) to your own devices. Call me when that ID theory coalesces.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Jon Garvey: Alternatively, it could have evolved from stretches of non coding posts. The homologies with part of your post could easily be explained by HGT. The real issue, however, is: do our posts generate a nested hierarchy? (I leave the higher places to you, obviously, out of sheer respect).gpuccio
October 7, 2013
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If science can’t supply an answer it does not imply there is one way or another way.
facepalm
It simply means science can’t answer the particular question [either way]
Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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Saying that science cannot answer the question “either way” to a question that cannot be answered either way*, does not introduce a dichotomy (much less a false dichotomy).
*my emphasis! You know, I didn't spot that sneaky little sidestep there straight away and was half way through a charitable answer. If science can't supply an answer it does not imply there is one way or another way. It simply means science can't answer the particular question.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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It’s not just me
Saying that science cannot answer the question "either way" to a question that cannot be answered either way, does not introduce a dichotomy (much less a false dichotomy). One might think this would be obvious. Linking to a conversation where one person critiques another person's incomplete knowledge, while having incomplete knowledge himself, does nothing to improve your error.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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...before answering the phone call of the Queen of England.
I'm a republican. Henry Tudor, Elizabeth's ancestor by whom she claims right of accession, was a usurper and possibly had a hand in the murder of Edward V. Though as Edward's father, Henry IV, was allegedly the result of a liaison between his mother, Cecily Neville, and an archer in her entourage this does not much matter.
Plato should never be left waiting.
He'll have to wait till I retire. I have already read Herodotus and Xenophon (Anabasis).
...more than can be said for the writing of a good number of modern philosophers, who write mainly for their professional clique.
Indeed. This is a basic problem of philosophy. The jargon can be impenetrable and annoying when one finds, on checking definitions, that the concept behind the jargon can be trivially simple. And acknowledgements to earlier writers could go in footnotes, rather than wordy expositions of positions that are no longer relevant. (In science, it's not necessary to give a passing nod to phlogiston theory when discussing the phenomenon of oxidation.)
If I want that kind of shallow secular humanism, I can find it better-written and argued in Bertrand Russell or Bernard Shaw.
Russell shallow? Disagree. He writes with clarity, precision and humility. Shaw is a playwright. I don't think he would have claimed to be a philosopher. Regarding Shakespeare, his plays, when done well, can still be magical. If you get chance to get to see The Royal Shakespeare Company at Stratford or London or on tour, it is well worth it.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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I started eating playdough at an early age. I really think it helped when I got to the more modern philosophers.Mung
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox wrote: "Sorry, Timaeus, if I get through “Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature” I might try Quine. Maybe Sellars, maybe even Churchland. Dennett, should I? Ruse, not after his petulant performance at BioLogos :) Plato will have to wait." Plato should never be left waiting. Reading Quine or Sellars before reading Plato would be like answering the phone call of Lady Gaga or Celine Dion before answering the phone call of the Queen of England. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with reading Rorty. But if your goal is to understand what philosophy is and does, you won't get a full picture from reading only very modern philosophers such as the ones you are citing. You'll get a very narrow vision of what philosophy can be. To really understand philosophy you need an up close and personal (not secondhand) encounter with the masters of the philosophical tradition. That means Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Descartes, Rousseau, Kant, etc. And it's always best to start with Plato, first of all because he is at the start of the tradition and makes the subsequent tradition much more intelligible than if you try to understand it without him, and second of all because Plato's writing is for the most part comprehensible to the average educated layman -- which is more than can be said for the writing of a good number of modern philosophers, who write mainly for their professional clique. Ruse you can easily skip. As for Dennett, I can't speak for his professional, technical philosophical writing, but his popular writing and speaking (on evolution, atheism, etc.) is the usual set of vulgar and trivial cliches, unworthy of serious response. If I want that kind of shallow secular humanism, I can find it better-written and argued in Bertrand Russell or Bernard Shaw. What the "new atheists" present is just the old atheism warmed over, only with worse prose style and without any of the Oxbridge class of the earlier generation of cultivated and gentlemanly atheists. Anyhow, read Plato. Start with Gorgias, perhaps. The Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito, read in that order, also provide a good entry. After such a warm-up, you can tackle The Republic, one of the handful (along with the Bible, Shakespeare, Homer, etc.) of "must reads" of every civilized Western person. After you have actually read some Plato, some useful commentators are Eric Voegelin and Allan Bloom. But try your hand at Plato first.Timaeus
October 7, 2013
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UB @ 47 It's not just me ;)Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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F/N: Cf here where I tracked down the exchange with KN over naturalised ethics as presented by Flanagan. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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The issue begins with “either way” introducing the false dichotomy
Face palmUpright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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Perhaps have a little less disrespect for the data and say “Science cannot answer that question either way”. What would be the problem with that, given the complete truth of it?
I have no problem with "Science cannot answer that question." The issue begins with "either way" introducing the false dichotomy and the default with backward somersault to "A is wrong, therefore B".Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Jon/GP, Frankly, I think this thread has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. ;)Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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What can one say?
Perhaps have a little less disrespect for the data and say "Science cannot answer that question either way". What would be the problem with that, given the complete truth of it?Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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gpuccio - Yours, I think, arose from duplication and then massive loss of infomation under selection, whilst my original continued to provide function within the thread (or strictly, apparent function - we mustn't speak teleologically, as my old haematology tutor always used to say, because she always did speak teleologically about blood clotting, immunity etc). One can still see, as one would predict, traces of my original sequence in yours (eg "sheer electronic fluke").Jon Garvey
October 7, 2013
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ID is not incoherent with science...
What can one say?Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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I’m aware that it’s the “argument from incredulity” – which states (I think) that it’s invalid not to believe something because you don’t have any reason to believe it.
Never heard that! It's pretty unconvincing as an an argument to attempt to refute something purely on the basis that you, personally, can't believe it but carry on. ;)Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Sorry, Timaeus, if I get through "Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature" I might try Quine. Maybe Sellars, maybe even Churchland. Dennett, should I? Ruse, not after his petulant performance at BioLogos :) Plato will have to wait.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Jon Garvey: For what I can say, the "sheer electronic fluke" that has taken the form of your post is really fine! Obviously, this very simple post of mine can even more easily be disregarded as simple selected variation, and its apparent relationship to your post is certainly some form of convergent evolution, or cooption...gpuccio
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox wrote: "Sorry to hear that, KN. At least you got me started on reading Richard Rorty." Hopefully Alan will one day balance his philosophical reading by studying the large parts of the philosophical tradition which Rorty rejects, starting with Plato. To get one's introduction to philosophy from someone who thinks that huge parts of the Western philosophical tradition have been completely misguided is a bit like getting one's introduction to evolutionary thought from Ken Ham or Henry Morris rather than from Charles Darwin or Stephen Jay Gould. The conclusions of Richard Rorty certainly aren't synonymous with the judgment of "philosophy," and have been contested by a number of Rorty's modern peers, not to mention the great philosophers of the tradition.Timaeus
October 7, 2013
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Kantian, I, as one of many I'm sure, am sad to see you go. I look forward to hearing more about your project, if it should come to pass (and I hope it does). I will certainly question it's completeness though. It is one thing to say "I don't know" about something, or to say "I have not decided", while it is quite another to ignore it like it doesn't exist. I think what is even worse is to analyze it at a safe distance while you comfortably sweep it under the rug - whether that rug belongs to one of the opponents, or is just philosophical milleu. I believe that at least approximates what you've been doing here. The fact remains; ID is not incoherent with science, yet materialism is incoherent with materialism. It is a partisan act to put that off on ID in order to remain temporally fashionable. Best RegardsUpright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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