Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

# The Medium is Not the Message

Share
Flipboard
Print
Email

March madness is upon us.  In that vein, I ask you to consider the following sentence:  “A basketball is round and orange.”

Think of it this way.  Suppose I wrote the same sentence (“A basketball is round and orange”) on a piece of paper and handed it to you and asked you to read and memorize it.  You proceed to memorize the sentence.  I take the paper back and burn it.  Then I ask you to repeat the sentence into a tape recorder.  You dictate “A basketball is round and orange” into the tape recorder.  What just happened?  The information was in my head.  Then it was on the paper.  Then it was in your head, but not the paper.  Now it is on the tape of the tape recorder.

What is the point of all this?  The point is that information may be transmitted on a physical medium, but it is not reducible to the medium on which it is carried, and it is independent of the medium upon which it is carried.  Information has no mass.  It has no charge.  Indeed, it has no property that can be measured by the same means we measure matter and energy.  We conclude, therefore, that information is not reducible to matter, and it is not reducible to energy, and it is not reducible to a combination of matter and energy.  Yet we know that information exists in the universe.  Therefore, we must conclude that the universe is more than matter and energy, that it is more than mere particles in motion.

If the existence of information cannot be reduced to the properties of matter and energy, where did it come from?  Where indeed?

Warehuff you state: "Without information, the universe would be a cold dead place. That’s one of the reasons it hurts to see so many people misunderstand it." You have no idea how true what you just said is and I couldn't agree with you more.bornagain77
March 28, 2010
March
03
Mar
28
28
2010
03:10 AM
3
03
10
AM
PDT
ba77, leaving out the most important step in an experiment is hardly a "minor flaw here and there". It falsifies the entire experiment and invalidates the conclusion. Consciousness has nothing to do with quantum effects and that kills half your claims. I'm not ridiculing your use of videos, but I am complaining about how much time they waste compared to just writing it down and reading it. Teleportion doesn't send any useful information instantaneously. Useable information can't travel any faster than those two bits and they have to travel at light speed or slower. I do agree with you about the important of information. Without information, all you have is a pile of quarks, no protons, neutrons or carbon atoms. Without information, all you have is a pile of carbon atoms, not organisms. Without information, the universe would be a cold dead place. That's one of the reasons it hurts to see so many people misunderstand it.warehuff
March 28, 2010
March
03
Mar
28
28
2010
02:09 AM
2
02
09
AM
PDT
warehuff, of note: the caveat of two bits of information having to travel along normal "speed of light" paths for us to "observe" the teleportation is a necessary condition for us to reside in this particular space time framework to begin with, and does not detract from the transcendent information framework that is established by quantum mechanics. hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this "timeless" travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework/dimension of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the "time not passing", eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks/dimensions, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus "pure information" is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks/dimensions. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which It resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). Logic also dictates "a decision" must have been made, by the "transcendent, eternal, infinite information" from the primary timeless (eternal) reality It inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive. The restriction imposed by our physical limitations of us ever accessing complete infinite information to our temporal framework/dimension does not detract, in any way, from the primacy and dominion of the infinite, eternal, transcendent, information framework/dimension that is now established by the quantum teleportation experiment as the primary reality of our reality. Of note: All of this evidence meshes extremely well with the theistic postulation of God being infinite and perfect in knowledge. "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy - Artwork homepage - http://www.artakiane.com/ - Music video - http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4204586 As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler's footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is "information". "It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom - at a very deep bottom, in most instances - an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin." John Archibald Wheeler Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/8638/Default.aspxbornagain77
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
04:23 AM
4
04
23
AM
PDT
Warehuff; Sorry to see you practice science in such a philosophically biased manner. The evidence I have presented is clear to the main points as postulated by Theism for a transcendent origin of the universe as well as information being transcendent and dominate of matter-energy, as well as consciousness being "primary" to any 3-D material basis. For you to merely ridicule minor flaws here and there, as well as ridicule my "video" method of presentation for some of the facts, all the while ignoring the meatier points of contention I brought up, is not very fair, and alas I will leave it to others with more patience than I to deal with your unreasonableness.bornagain77
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
04:11 AM
4
04
11
AM
PDT
HouseStreetRoom: Regarding your problem in 92, suppose you record a story in Finnish (which I don't understand) and also write it in Finnish. You ask, "How does what you know, lead to what I know?" It doesn't. You're mistaking information and comprehension. I can detect the raw information in both your spoken and written story, but I can't comprehend it because I don't understand Finnish. Comprehending your story, in either format, requires additional information - knowledge of written and spoken Finnish - which my brain doesn't have. Barry did his thinking and typing in English, which we all understand, so we can not only detect the information, we can comprehend it.warehuff
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
03:47 AM
3
03
47
AM
PDT
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
03:33 AM
3
03
33
AM
PDT
warehuff you state: "In fact, it’s getting really, really hard for anybody watching oxygen use shift from one part of the brain to another as the test subject switches from doing mental math problems to imagining music to even take the “mental states are in another realm” argument seriously." It is funny you would mention "oxygen use", for oxygen use actually illuminates something very profound about brain/mind interaction that is very helpful to the Theistic position and very antagonistic to the atheistic position: Appraising the brain's energy budget: Excerpt: In the average adult human, the brain represents about 2% of the body weight. Remarkably, despite its relatively small size, the brain accounts for about 20% of the oxygen and, hence, calories consumed by the body. This high rate of metabolism is remarkably constant despite widely varying mental and motoric activity. The metabolic activity of the brain is remarkably constant over time. http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10237.full THE EFFECT OF MENTAL ARITHMETIC ON CEREBRAL CIRCULATION AND METABOLISM Excerpt: Although Lennox considered the performance of mental arithmetic as "mental work", it is not immediately apparent what the nature of that work in the physical sense might be if, indeed, there be any. If no work or energy transformation is involved in the process of thought, then it is not surprising that cerebral oxygen consumption is unaltered during mental arithmetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438861/pdf/jcinvest00624-0127.pdf i.e. warehuff, If mind were merely a "secretion" of the material brain as you hold, should not this material basis of our being, which you are so convinced is true, manifest itself with increased oxygen use for increased mental activity? Why in the world should the oxygen use remain "remarkably constant" in the brain despite widely divergent mental activities. The evidence clearly indicates strong support for a "mind" that is separate from the brain.bornagain77
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
02:48 AM
2
02
48
AM
PDT
Franck #110 Me: As far I can see you are saying that information is the same as facts. So while the round earth is definitely something material – the fact the earth is round is immaterial information? You: Correct. A thought, or mental content that can be expressed in a sentence, exists separate from the piece of paper it is written on. It makes no sense to say for example that the thought that the earth is round is the same as the particles that make up the round physical earth. My response: This is a different thing. I am not talking about thoughts. A fact is a fact whether anyone has believed it or even considered it or not. You were claiming that mathematical truths were immaterial. Some of those truths have never even occurred to anyone yet. So I come back to my point: does the fact that the earth is round somehow exist independently of the round earth?Mark Frank
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
02:41 AM
2
02
41
AM
PDT
Frank Barfety in 111: " I invite you or anyone else to scrutinize synapses, neuronal networks and dentrites and tell me what my breakfast tasted like. Let me know whether it was a disappointing meal or not. You may also tell me the reason I opted for that particular restaurant vs. another." An interesting argument. The human brain is the most complex entity we know of with 50 to 100 billion neurons and as many as 1000 trillion synapses, it's hidden away inside the skull where it's difficult to get at and you can't do any experiment on it that would injure or destroy it. Therefore we can't yet give you the exact location of your memories or thoughts, therefore, "Mental states are just in another realm altogether. A non-physical one." "Mind of the gaps" is the same type of argument as the "God of the gaps" and has the same weakness: gaps in our knowledge don't prove anything and when the gaps are eventually filled, the claim is falsified. I give this one maybe two decades before its conclusively falsified, at the most. In fact, it's getting really, really hard for anybody watching oxygen use shift from one part of the brain to another as the test subject switches from doing mental math problems to imagining music to even take the "mental states are in another realm" argument seriously. For example, I'm sure you've heard of the experiment where a person stares at a checkerboard pattern on a screen and a PET scan of the back of the head shows the checkerboard pattern, clear as day. But have you heard of the experiment where the human just imagines a checkerboard and a PET scan shows the pattern appearing in the same place? Pretty good for a disembodied mind. I wonder how it does that.warehuff
March 26, 2010
March
03
Mar
26
26
2010
01:38 AM
1
01
38
AM
PDT
Yes Franck, It is really beautiful to realize this isn't it, in fact I was just in awe of our "real selves" this morning. The real me, or you, or anyone, is not the trillions upon trillions of cells and molecules that are conformed to sustaining the "real" us in this material world. The "real" us which I will call our soul. But the "real" us is a "thought and breath" from the infinite mind and spirit of God almighty"! That thought and breath from God IS THE continuity of our "real" being that gives us that "persistence of self-identity through time" you alluded to. It truly is a wonderful thought to contemplate but best of all it really is the truth for how it really is!bornagain77
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
06:09 PM
6
06
09
PM
PDT
Franck Barfety:
The persistence of self-identity through time and part replacement seems to be set aside by physicalists. We are taught that every cell in our bodies are replaced at some point or another but yet we are to identify with our brain matter. There are major problems with this flawed idea.
Franck, If all of the water molecules in a lake are replaced by new ones, is it still the same lake?pelagius
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
05:54 PM
5
05
54
PM
PDT
bornagain77 Thanks for Michael Egnor's article link. The persistence of self-identity through time and part replacement seems to be set aside by physicalists. We are taught that every cell in our bodies are replaced at some point or another but yet we are to identify with our brain matter. There are major problems with this flawed idea. Here is a quick (true) story to illustrate. A few days ago, a KCPD Sexual Crime Special Unit Detective and I were having a discussion outside, roughly 30 feet from the front door of the building, about a serial rapist in Kansas City (the poor guy is probably just acting out his evolutionary urges, not sure what all the fuss is about or why the police is making his life so difficult that he has to hide). The detective pointed out that he could roll the walkway between where we were standing and the door and collect the DNA of all the people who walked to that door within the past week, thanks to each individual losing hundreds of thousands of skin cells every hour without being aware of it (his words). Now if say 300 million cells die in the human body every minute and the body goes through part replacement over time ( including neurons?), my question to the detective is this: Is the hunted criminal still held responsible for his crimes if he is found 10 years from now when all the cells in his body have either died or been replaced? Is the state charging the particles or the personal agent responsible for the crime.Franck Barfety
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
Franck Barfety @ 116, Thank you. Likewise, I've enjoyed your contributions here. warehuff, I would invite you to take part in my thought experiment above in post 92. I'm curious to see if you have an answer to the questions I'd posed.HouseStreetRoom
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
HouseStreetRoom #92 thanks for throwing your light upon the matter...Franck Barfety
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
sorry to post so much Franck, but here is a poem which is appropriate: There Is More - Poem - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102086bornagain77
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PDT
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:28 PM
12
12
28
PM
PDT
Franck you might like these: The Mind and Materialist Superstition - Six "conditions of mind" that are irreconcilable with materialism: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html and this: Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599 Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported being able to see during their NDEs. 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. In all, 15 of the 21 NDEers and 9 of the 10 OBEers could see during their experience while the remaining participants either claimed that they did not see or were not sure whether or not they had seen. Amazing Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 and this: Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585 Removing Half of Brain (Hemispherectomies) Improves Young Epileptics' Lives - article Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of the child’s memory after removal of half of the brain, either half; and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor." Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining of Johns Hopkins University http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.htmlbornagain77
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:21 PM
12
12
21
PM
PDT
I invite you or anybody else to show me any information that is not embedded in matter. I ask above: Is that statement embedded in matter? You might answer a resounding yes. The problem is what is really embedded in matter is your mental content, a thought of yours. Thoughts and monitor pixels that represent them physically (or neuronal activity while you're having them) are radically different. Think about it.Franck Barfety
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PDT
#94 warehuff I invite you or anybody else to show me any information that is not embedded in matter. Is that statement embedded in matter? I invite you or anyone else to scrutinize synapses, neuronal networks and dentrites and tell me what my breakfast tasted like. Let me know whether it was a disappointing meal or not. You may also tell me the reason I opted for that particular restaurant vs. another. Of course you would be at loss and it is not for lack of scientific knowledge. Mental states are just in another realm altogether. A non-physical one. The only way you can know these things is by asking me to tell you. "Two atoms of hydrogen join to a single atom of oxygen to make a molecule of water. The property of “wetness” is an emergent property of large numbers of water molecules. There’s nothing magic or immaterial about wetness or other examples of emergence." You are correct to say that there is nothing particularly magical or immaterial about liquidity taken as a degree of viscosity of a collection of water molecules but it is not a good analogy to consciousness and here is why. First, water is nothing more than the group behavior of H20 molecules when they are grouped together in a viscous, loose arrangement. You lower the temperature water becomes ice, you raise it water turns to steam. That's just physical theory. Second, I don't equate liquidity with wetness anymore than I equate the color green with a wavelength or my wife's body heat with warmth. You are trying to establish a correlation between the arrangement of water molecules and wetness which does nothing to say they are the same. Third, mental states are so radically unique that it's not clear how they could emerge from physical particles bumping into each other. I mentioned this elsewhere but emergence is a name for the problem naturalists face when they add mental properties to their naturalist philosophy, it offer nothing in terms of explanation. If you're sticking to the particles or a rearrangement of them you would also have a problem with libertarian freedom. I'll leave you with three quotes:
Evolutionary theorists have suggested that "conscious intelligence" is an evolved trait, but they have never shown how a nonphysical variation could arise to be selected by physical contingencies of survival. -- B. F. Skinner, Harvard University (BF Skinner is listed in one of the top 25 psychologists most frequently cited in the professional psychological journal literature)
The persistence of the free will problem in philosophy seems to me something of a scandal. After all these centuries of writing about free will, it does not seem to me that we have made very much progress. -- John Searle (Freedom and Neurobiology, p.37)
Quickly, bring me a beaker of wine, so that I may wet my mind and say something clever.” -- Aristophanes, Greek comedian.
Franck Barfety
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PDT
#91 Mark Frank As far I can see you are saying that information is the same as facts. So while the round earth is definitely something material – the fact the earth is round is immaterial information? Correct. A thought, or mental content that can be expressed in a sentence, exists separate from the piece of paper it is written on. It makes no sense to say for example that the thought that the earth is round is the same as the particles that make up the round physical earth. There are several states of consciousness that are nonmaterial such as thoughts, beliefs, sensations, desires and endeavorings or acts of freedom. I hold to thousands of beliefs that are not physical right now. They exist though I may not be thinking about them. They are of, or about, something whereas my physical states, i.e. ions, cells, neurons may have negative or positive charge, but aren't of or about anything. In fact the only way you can tell what I am saying is true is by introspectively thinking about it and reminding yourself that you've had thoughts, beliefs and so on. Mental facts are not physical. Information is not physical. Information just like consciousness cannot be explained by Naturalism and are recalcitrant facts that cannot be explained by a Naturalist theory. It's time to jump ship at this point. Or, one can keep on living trying to deny their existence or dismissing them as illusions but as previously pointed out, illusions are states of consciousness and so these truths cannot be avoided or denied. Anthony Flew saw it after being the leading atheist in the past 50 years. I wouldn't waste a lifetime trying to conform to the establishment for a sense of belonging. Truth. It's all that matters in the end.Franck Barfety
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
08:08 AM
8
08
08
AM
PDT
warehuff; this following experiment refutes your materialistic explanation for the double slit experiment: Delayed choice quantum eraser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser i.e. The consciousness must be INFORMED with local certainty to cause the wave to become particle. We know from the Double slit experiment, with delayed erasure, that the simple fact of a detector is NOT sufficient. If the detector results are erased after detection but before conscious analysis we see the wave form result, instead of the particle result, thereby clearly establishing the centrality of consciousness to the whole experiment. i.e. The implication clearly is that consciousness is primary, and detection secondary, to the collapse of the wave function.bornagain77
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
re 106 warehuff: If you take the ink and paper away, do you have any information? No. warehuff; I put this video together a while back that answers your "where did the information go" question. Conservation Of Transcendent Information – 2007 – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995275bornagain77
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
05:05 AM
5
05
05
AM
PDT
Is the arrangement of ink on paper information? Yes. If you take the ink and paper away, do you have any information? No. Could you try arguing with your own words for a while?warehuff
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
04:54 AM
4
04
54
AM
PDT
warehuff; Information is NOT reducible to matter-energy, but it may be represented by matter-energy. Is ink and paper information? Of course not! Information is its own unique, separate, and individual entity, which is completely transcendent and dominate of any matter-energy basis. Information is always implemented "top down" onto matter-energy, and always from a mind. Never has functional information been shown to "emerge from the "bottom up". (I noticed you did not touch Abel's null hypothesis for information generation) These intuitive characteristics of the transcendence and dominance by information over matter-energy, which are usually easily arrived at by most people with common sense, are experimentally shown to be, exactly as is suspected by common sense, in quantum teleportation and entanglement experiments in which information instantaneously tells photons and electrons exactly what to be and do in the experiments regardless of any space and time constraints. i.e. matter-energy NEVER tell information what to be and do. Conservation Of Transcendent Information - 2007 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995275 Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Unconditional Quantum Teleportation - abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/5389/706 Of note: conclusive evidence for the violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics is firmly found in the preceding experiment when coupled with the complete displacement of the infinite transcendent information of "Photon c": http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMzBmcjR0eG1neg In extension to the 2007 video, the following video shows quantum teleportation breakthroughs have actually shed light on exactly what, or more precisely on exactly Whom, has created this universe: Scientific Evidence For God (Logos) Creating The Universe - 2008 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995300 Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf It is also interesting to note that we can only “destroy” a photon in these quantum teleportation experiments. No one has “created” a photon as of yet. I firmly believe man shall never do as such, since I hold only God is infinite, and perfect, in information/knowledge. further note: Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Ultra-Dense Optical Storage - on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.htmlbornagain77
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
04:19 AM
4
04
19
AM
PDT
This thread is on what information is, not where it comes from. Do you disagree that information is material?warehuff
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
03:34 AM
3
03
34
AM
PDT
warehuff >> "if you don’t believe information is reducible to arrangements of matter and energy, please tell us how the information in Barry’s computer is stored." A question: Your comment in #101 had a little over 3480 charactors, with 700+ spaces in 6 paragraphs and 707 words. The were a number of complete sentences with nouns, adverbs, and such, forming legible text under the rules of English grammar. Do you (honestly) believe that comment #101 owes its existence to (is reducible to) the circuits in your computer?Upright BiPed
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
01:35 AM
1
01
35
AM
PDT
Correction: "This is a general rule for quantum mechanics and it’s one of the REASONS that most of these experiments are conducted in a vacuum at temperatures near abolute zero..."warehuff
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:38 AM
12
12
38
AM
PDT
boarnagain77, if you don't believe information is reducible to arrangements of matter and energy, please tell us how the information in Barry's computer is stored. So far as I know, Barry typed new information into his computer and this information was stored as arrangements of electrical charges in the capacitors in his DRAM memory. That's how memory works in modern PCs. At past times, that information would have been stored as magnetic charges in small toroids, as the state of vacuum tube flip-flops, as sound waves in a tube of mercury and doubtless other forms which don't come to mind right now. Information can be stored in many different arrangements of matter and energy, but it does require some sort of matter or energy to exist. I'm not talking about hidden variable theories. Last I heard, they were still disproven. I'm talking about basic, well accepted quantum mechanics and something that your Doctor Quantum completely misses. Go to the three minute mark, where he's shooting individual electrons through a double slit. They form an interference pattern and the Doctor explains it like this: "The single electron leaves as a particle, becomes a wave of potentials, goes through both slits and interferes with itself to hit the wall like a particle." Weird as it is, this is superposition of wave and particle properties, which is the conventional and generally accepted explanation. But in the next step, the Doctor goes astray. At 3:32: "So, they decided to peek and see which slit it actually goes through. They put a measuring device by one slit to see which one it went through and let it fly." Here he draws the "measuring device" as a mechanical eyeball on a stick, complete with "eyelashes". He then chuckles and continues: "But the quantum world is far more mysterious than they could have imagined. When they observed, the electron went back to behaving like a little marble. It produced a pattern of two bands, not an interference pattern of many. They very act of measuring (or, observing) which slit it went through meant it only went through one, not both. The electron decided to act differently as though it was aware it was being watched." Here's the Doctor's main error. He clearly treats (and draws) the "measuring device" as something passive like an eyeball and draws it as not interfering with the electron as the electron shoots through the slit. This is a physical impossibility. To detect the electron going through the slit, the "measuring device" has to interact with it. But as soon as you interact with the electron in any way, you destroy the quantum superposition and the electron acts like a particle. You can only sustain the superposition of the electron's wave and particle natures by NOT interfering with it. This is a general rule for quantum mechanics and it's one of the things that most of these experiments are conducted in a vacuum at temperatures near abolute zero - if you interact with what you're measuring in any way whatsover, you destroy the superposition you're trying to measure. Doctor Quantum doesn't seem to know this. He says, "The observer collapsed the wave function simply by observing," as if "observing" was a passive experience. Later in the video, we're shown "observers" (in slow motion, so you know it's real) and examples of quantum superposition (all the bouncing basketballs) vanishing as soon as the observer looks at them. But on the atomic scale, you can't just look at something, you have to bounce something off of whatever you're looking at and poof! goes your superposition. The interference of the measurement or observation causes the quantum collapse and the observer is not necessary, regardless of what Doctor Quantum (is he really Fred Wolf?) says or believes. Since observers aren't necessary, all of your arguments that depend on their necessity are invalid. This is explained in many books, but "Where does the weirdness go?" does a particularily good job. My offer of a free copy of this book is genuine. PM me with a mailing address and I'll send a copy to you. It will improve your argument and you won't even have to watch commercials for Outback Steakhouse or Kotex Tampons to read it.warehuff
March 25, 2010
March
03
Mar
25
25
2010
12:35 AM
12
12
35
AM
PDT
@ Graham1, Oh my, you really got me on that one. So, would you care to add anything worthwhile to the discussion, rather than just irrelevant comments from the sidelines? An actual argument would suffice.HouseStreetRoom
March 24, 2010
March
03
Mar
24
24
2010
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PDT
1 2 3 5