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The Mental Dilemma of the Materialist

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The materialist position is that the mind is an effect of biology and physics.

If the materialist appeals to a person’s mind (logic, reason, thoughts, conscience, emotion) to try and get them to change their views/beliefs, they are necessarily assuming that the mind is not limited to being only an effect of biology/physics, because they would be appealing to an effect (the mind) to change itself, or to itself act in a top-down, causal manner, circumventing the physical causes the materialist supposedly believes actually produces the state-of-mind effect.

Appealing to the minds of others necessarily means assuming those minds are not caused by biology/physics and that those minds have the causal ability to change themselves based on concepts and arguments.  Since those concepts and arguments do not rely upon any particular physical medium of delivery in order for them to be considered by the mind of another – text, sound, braille – it obviously is not the expectation of the materialist that it is the nature of the physical medium employed that causes a physical reaction towards the change in mind – if so, why bother arranging words and sentences so carefully into arguments and concepts at all?

Who knows which string of perceived letters will have what effect on the mind of another?  Wouldn’t you have to know the physiological cause and effect system that culminates in their caused mind to know which set of perceived letters will generate the desired effect?  Yet, where do our materialist counterparts ever try to understand the physiological causes that generate our beliefs and views before they begin their argument?  They act as if the actual physical, cause-and-effect interactions of medium and the physical state and physical processing mechanisms of the recipient are irrelevant!

Materialists argue and act as if the particular physical medium carrying their messages isn’t important at all, but rather that it is the mental concepts contained in the physical medium that is the important thing, as if the mind of the other person can comprehend the message regardless of the medium (conceptually top-down, not physically bottom-up), and as if changing the mind of the other person isn’t at all a matter of the biology and physics of the message-carrying medium, but rather of the argument and concepts regardless of the medium.

IOW, whenever a materialist argues, they can only do so based on non-materialist assumptions, and they do so in contradiction to their own stated core beliefs.

Comments
#24 StephenB I read WJM as saying that the mind was the effect of BPPs and implying the mind is not a BPP itself. If that was wrong I apologise and here is the corrected version: The materialist position is that the mind is a BPP which is the result of other BPPs including other minds. Minds influence each other in many ways but a major method as WJM points out is by language. Language is itself a physical process – either sound or sight. Where’s the problem? Mark Frank
August 26, 2014
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Mark Frank:
I don’t see the logic of this at all. Obviously those BPPs which are also mental processes are rather special. But it doesn’t follow they are not BPPs.
All the confusion stems from your failure to address the topic as presented. The argument deals with the materialist's claim that mind comes from matter and the implications that follow. Accordingly, the opening sentence is both easy to understand and true to the facts: WFM
The materialist position is that the mind is an effect of biology and physics.
Your reaction was to say, "no," yet you ended by saying, in effect, "Yes--but." That amounts to a yes and a no, which proves the point of the post. Materialists contradict themselves. In fact, the "but" part of your "yes" (the effect can be of the same substance as the cause) is irrelevant to WJM's argument. It you had simply begun by agreeing with the facts and addressing their implications, there would have been no confusion at all.StephenB
August 26, 2014
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WJM
If one were to assume that mind was a BPP, then the proper methodology going forward is to examine the person’s physiology and conduct physical testing to see what kind of treatments will change that person’s beliefs/views. Trying to argue them out of their beliefs without even conducting a preliminary physiological examination would be like trying to argue a sociopath or schizophrenic out of their illnesses, because sociopathy and schizophrenia are also mental states generated by biology and physics.
I don’t see the logic of this at all. Obviously those BPPs which are also mental processes are rather special. But it doesn’t follow they are not BPPs. We don’t in general have the knowledge of the biochemistry of mental BPPs to affect people’s views via injections, pills or surgery but that doesn’t prove that the methods that we do use, words etc, are not in the end reducible to material events.  There are many things that we do with and to our bodies that we do not understand the underlying biochemistry (or at least did not). The line between pills and mental approaches is continually being blurred. We give pills for depression. We also argue and persuade people out of it. We treat schizophrenia with pills but also with psychoanalysis. LSD changes perception and opinions. So does exercise. So does a lobotomy, brain surgery and accidents affecting the brain. Mark Frank
August 25, 2014
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Well, Mung, all it takes is the correct sequence of hand signals, sounds and textures (whether they make cognitive sense or not) and we'll be able to "convince" Mark F to believe in god. We might also turn him into a sociopath or change his sexual orientation. Who knows what effect we might have on him? Yet, here he is arguing as if the biological/physical processes we use should conform to the protocols of a "rational" argument, as if he knows that is what will change his mind (alter his physiology in the necessary ways). I wonder if Mark has a recent brain scan handy? Does he even know what sequence of physical input might have such an impact on his beliefs? Has he had a workup done lately by his MD and psychiatrist?William J Murray
August 25, 2014
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Why should we expect that reading words would have the same effect as hearing words? How is it that a deaf child can even lern to read?Mung
August 25, 2014
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I do believe in free will. I am a compatabilist.
You don't believe in free will as it is being utilized here, so this is just more semantic diversion. Just because you use the same term doesn't mean the definition of that term is the same, which is what matters.William J Murray
August 25, 2014
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Mark Frank said:
My key point is that materialism is the position that minds are BPPs. So for minds to affect minds means BPPs are affecting other BPPs. Nothing radical there! You that minds are the effects of BPPs. I thought you were implying that they were somehow different and therefore incapable of also being causes. Maybe I misunderstood you. Can you clarify? Why can’t minds be causes of effects no other minds?
The point, Mark, lies in the assumption of what it is that is affecting the mind of the other person, and how that assumption drives behavior. If one were to assume that mind was a BPP, then the proper methodology going forward is to examine the person's physiology and conduct physical testing to see what kind of treatments will change that person's beliefs/views. Trying to argue them out of their beliefs without even conducting a preliminary physiological examination would be like trying to argue a sociopath or schizophrenic out of their illnesses, because sociopathy and schizophrenia are also mental states generated by biology and physics. Yet here you are, without even a preliminary workup of any of our physiological/medical situations, throwing out strings of words through this particular medium as if you are confident it is the correct treatment both in medium form and content. If you accepted the ramifications of your own worldview, you'd have to admit that you have absolutely no idea what effect your words, through this particular medium, would have on anyone here. Yet you do so confidently, not because you have any understanding of how one individual BPP is going to affect the other individual BPP, but rather because - even if you deny it - you assume it really has absolutely nothing to do with that particular person's physiological makeup and processes nor with the medium you are transmitting through. You expect them to be able to discern the meaning of the message and implement changes in a top-down fashion regardless of the medium and regardless of their physiological makeup.William J Murray
August 25, 2014
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#16 #17 awstar tjguy We seem to have drifted away from WJM's OP. awstar I don't see why one day we shouldn't measure some aspects of mental activity in meter, kilogram, ampere, kelvin, mole, candela or second. Just because it is hard, it doesn't mean it can't be done. After all we already measure brain waves. tjguy I do believe in free will. I am a compatabilist.Mark Frank
August 25, 2014
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Materialists are stuck here. They have no option but to believe these things about the mind. Experimental evidence is absent. They only hold this position because of their worldview. They are locked into it so them simply assume it is true, but in the end, it is one of their many beliefs. As the good professor pointed out, if free will is an illusion, it's a mighty good one! So it follows that no one in their right mind would naturally conclude that free will is an illusion. All our experience tells us something different. The only reason they take this absurd position then seems to be that their chosen beliefs demand it. In other words, it is a necessary corollary of their worldview. tjguy
August 25, 2014
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#7 mark frank
I don’t get your argument. One of things that material minds do is assign meanings to words. Why should these minds have any more trouble assigning a meaning to “biology” and “physics” than to any other words (e.g. “mind”)?
because you said "The materialist position is that the mind IS biology and physics" If that were so, then the mind would be able to quantify itself with units of measure such as meter, kilogram, ampere, kelvin, mole, candela and second. Which of these units of measure or combination thereof does the mind assign to itself? If it can't do it, then it must be something other that biological or physical.awstar
August 25, 2014
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The materialist position is that the mind is an effect of biology and physics.
The materialist cannot explain the mind, biology nor physics. Mark Frank:
The materialist position is that the mind is biology and physics. If it were an effect that would imply it were something different from biology and physics.
Emergence, Mark, look it up.Joe
August 25, 2014
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Sorry - rather a lot of typos in #11. Trying again. I am really confused by what you are claiming. My key point is that materialism is the position that minds are BPPs. So for minds to affect minds means BPPs are affecting other BPPs. Nothing radical there! You write that minds are the effects of BPPs. I thought you were implying that they were somehow not BPPs and therefore incapable of also being causes. Maybe I misunderstood you. Can you clarify?Mark Frank
August 25, 2014
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Another simple way of demonstrating that the mind is not the same thing as the material brain is by utilizing the ‘Law Of Identity’ to separate properties of mind from properties of the brain:
Mind-Body Dualism - Is the Mind Purely a Function of the Brain? by Michael Egnor Conclusion: Strict materialism predicts that mental function will always correlate with brain function, because mental function is the same thing as brain function. Dualism predicts that mental function and brain function won’t always correlate, because mental function isn’t the same thing as brain function. The Cambridge findings are more consistent with the dualist prediction than with the strict materialist prediction. http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/mind-body_dualism.html Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds – podcast and summary (Law of Identity: 6 properties of mind that are not identical to properties of the brain, thus the mind is not the brain) http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/ The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html
Alvin Plantinga has a humorous way of getting this ‘Law of Identity’ point across:
Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument (for the existence of the mind/soul) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0
Mind/Consciousness, contrary to what Mr. Frank may prefer to believe, simply refuses to be reduced to material explanation. Thomas Nagel has made this point clear,
Mind and Cosmos - Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False - Thomas Nagel Excerpt: "If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology." http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199919758.do
And Quantum Mechanics is certainly not shy in helping Nagel, and everybody else, ‘abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature’.
A short history of quantum mechanics and consciousness (Double Slit through Leggett's Inequality) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/materialist-magic/#comment-511549 “No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the originator of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) “It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality” - Eugene Wigner – (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 – received Nobel Prize in 1963 for ‘Quantum Symmetries’
etc.. etc.. Verse and Music:
Romans 11:26 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Kutless (acoustic)-"Promise of a Lifetime" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ooFMefOZQ
bornagain77
August 25, 2014
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Mr. Frank you claim:
"One of things that material minds do is assign meanings to words"
REALLY??? And assigning meaning, i.e. creating information, is no big deal for 'material minds'???
Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test - Douglas S. Robertson Excerpt: Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information. http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf
Mr. Frank how did you, apart from just assuming it to be true, prove that mind is 'material'?, (much less that a material mind can assign meaning, i.e. create information?) I'm certainly not the only one who would like to know how you proved this precise point!
"We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good." Matthew D. Lieberman - neuroscientist - materialist - UCLA professor
So are 'you', like Coyne, merely a neuronal illusion of your deterministic brain with no free will Mr. Frank?
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0
Mr. Frank, despite your blatant bluff to the contrary, you simply have no empirical warrant for your extraordinary claim that your 'mind' is merely emergent from, or epi-phenomenal to, material:
First off, “emergent property” is one of those hand-wavey terms people like to throw around without much substance behind it. A basic definition is something like complex properties that results from the interaction of simple behaviors. That doesn’t actually answer the how of consciousness particularly well by itself.,,, How do you explain the subjective experience of “redness”, let’s say. Saying simply that it’s the correlate of the neurophysiological response to certain rods and cones sensitive to certain light waves does not answer the question of why there is a gestalt qualitative experience of red. - Marc Ettlinger, Research Neuroscientist, Department of Veterans Affairs David Chalmers on Consciousness - (Philosophical zombies and the hard problem of consciousness) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo 'But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can't even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don't even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.' David Barash - Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist
David Barash is not exaggerating in the least. One way that an atheist might try to 'get on first base' as to explaining consciousness is to try to explain how the 'almost beyond belief' complexity of the brain originated,,,
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html Component placement optimization in the brain – 1994 As he comments [106], “To current limits of accuracy … the actual placement appears to be the best of all possible layouts; this constitutes strong evidence of perfect optimization.,, among about 40,000,000 alternative layout orderings, the actual ganglion placement in fact requires the least total connection length. http://www.jneurosci.org/content/14/4/2418.abstract
But alas, atheists cannot even tell us how a single neuron of that 'optimal' complexity operates,,,
"Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 2012 Excerpt: "This is bad news. Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year.",,, Even with shortcuts like averaging, "any possible technological advance is overwhelmed by the relentless growth of interactions among all components of the system," Koch said. to read more go here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html
Nor can atheists even tell us how a single protein of that 'beyond belief, optimal' complexity originated
Stephen Meyer and Doug Axe - “Mount Improbable” – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rgainpMXa8
bornagain77
August 25, 2014
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#9 WJM (To save space I will abbreviate biological and physical processes to BPPs below) I am really confused by what you are claiming. My key point is that materialism is the position that minds are BPPs. So for minds to affect minds means BPPs are affecting other BPPs. Nothing radical there! You that minds are the effects of BPPs. I thought you were implying that they were somehow different and therefore incapable of also being causes. Maybe I misunderstood you. Can you clarify? Why can't minds be causes of effects no other minds?Mark Frank
August 25, 2014
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Needs more cowbell boldface.Reciprocating Bill
August 25, 2014
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Mark Frank said:
No. The materialist position is that the mind is biology and physics. If it were an effect that would imply it were something different from biology and physics. You seem to be describing eiphenomenalism.
This is nothing but semantic diversion that avoids the real issue. Because an effect is caused by biological processes according to the laws of physics doesn't mean that the effect is "something else".William J Murray
August 25, 2014
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MF, AW is pointing out circularity and asking that it be resolved. If you want a bit of elaboration on the matter cf. here from a couple of months back. As just one clue, blind, GIGO-limited cause effect computation is not self-aware, meaingful insight ground and consequent based contemplation, nor is it even headed that way. To conflate the two -- rather common today per imposition of a priori Lewontinian materialist ideology -- is to try to get North by heading Due West. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2014
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#6 awstar I don't get your argument. One of things that material minds do is assign meanings to words. Why should these minds have any more trouble assigning a meaning to "biology" and "physics" than to any other words (e.g. "mind")?Mark Frank
August 25, 2014
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from #5
No. The materialist position is that the mind is biology and physics. If it were an effect that would imply it were something different from biology and physics. You seem to be describing eiphenomenalism.
"biology" and "physics" are words, which are assigned a meaning by the mind. How can the mind then be "biology" and "physics"?awstar
August 25, 2014
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The materialist position is that the mind is an effect of biology and physics.
No. The materialist position is that the mind is biology and physics. If it were an effect that would imply it were something different from biology and physics. You seem to be describing eiphenomenalism.Mark Frank
August 24, 2014
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I believe the great majority of the Neurological community dont believe in dualism. Perhaps someone here can provide some numbers on this.Graham2
August 24, 2014
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It is sad to see great minds clouded and corrupted by materialism. This insane view not only goes against rational thought and everyday reality but it also ultimately warps the mind.humbled
August 24, 2014
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So why would some scientists try to persuade other scientists to believe something they don’t even believe themselves?
...."It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." Richard LewontinStephenB
August 24, 2014
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IOW, whenever a materialist argues, they can only do so based on non-materialist assumptions, and they do so in contradiction to their own stated core beliefs.
So why would some scientists try to persuade other scientists to believe something they don't even believe themselves? Only a creationist can give a rational holistic explanation.awstar
August 24, 2014
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