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Remarkable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett

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As Michael Ruse remarked when he gave me permission to quote the following exchange between him and Daniel Dennett: “feel free to quote — after all, I am in deep sh** already!!!”

HIGHLIGHT OF THE EXCHANGE: “I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design – we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms – what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues – neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas – it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims – more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will.”

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From: Dennett, Daniel C.
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:57 PM
To: Michael Ruse
Subject: RE: your letter

Dear Michael,

I’ll wait before replying to you. I doubt that you mean all the things you say here. Think it over.

Dan

=-=-=-=-=-
From: Michael Ruse
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:29 PM
To: Dennett, Daniel C.
Subject: RE: your letter

Now don’t be grumpy – “You may want to try to extricate yourself, since you are certainly losing ground fast in the evolutionary community that I am in touch with.” — I am a full professor with tenure at a university known chiefly for its prowess on the football field, living out my retirement years in the sunshine – I have no reputation to preserve, and frankly can say and do whatever the f**k I want to without sinking further.

Now, for the record.

I am a hard-line Darwinian and always have been very publicly when it did cost me status and respect – in fact, I am more hard-line than you are, because I don’t buy into this meme bullsh** but put everything – especially including ethics – in the language of genes. I stick to this and my next book – which incidentally starts by quoting you approvingly on the world importance of selection – goes after the lot – Marxists, constructivists, feminists, creationists, philosophers, you name it.

Look it up — http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/052182947X/qid=1140387259/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1428663-3883125?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

It is true that I condemn or at least want to point to evolutionism, which I do think functions as a secular religion – but never have I said that Darwinian evolutionary theory is anything but a genuine theory – I am the guy who stood up in Arkansas and said this when all of the fancy philosophers would not have any part in the fight, and who got slammed afterwards by Larry Laudan, Ernan McMullin, Philip Kitcher, and others, because of my stand.

Second, I have no more belief than either you or Dawkins – I call myself a sceptic because I think that atheism is unprovable, but I don’t believe in the trinity or whatever – and have never concealed this, especially not to the Templeton people, to whom one might think I would suck up.

Third, I would defend to the death the right of you and Richard Dawkins to say what you like – I would print those bloody cartoons, believe me – if Richard gets caught on that sh*t Tony Blair’s laws to placate Muslims, the first thousand dollars to his defence fund will come from me.

Fourth, I thought your new book is really bad and not worthy of you – I agree that the Times review was loaded (although funny) – I tried in my review in Nature to express my disapproval but in a way that left us both with respect.

Fifth, I think that you and Richard are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design – we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms – what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues – neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas – it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims – more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will.

Ok, enough preaching for a Sunday – I really like you and Richard, but my liking for you and respect for what you two have done matters not a bit with respect to what I think that I, Michael Ruse, should do – I would be ashamed of myself if I thought and acted otherwise.

Michael

=-=-=-=-=-
From: Dennett, Daniel C.
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:34 PM
To: Michael Ruse
Subject: RE: your letter

Dear Michael,

Funny you should ask. They didn’t publish my/our letter, and today you can see why. The ugly review from Wieseltier [[Mentioned on this blog here — WmAD]]. I attach my response, which they WILL publish (but not till March). I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think the NYTBR is under the spell of the Darwin dreaders. I’m afraid you are being enlisted on the side of the forces of darkness. You may want to try to extricate yourself, since you are certainly losing ground fast in the evolutionary community that I am in touch with. As you will see, I do lump your coinage in with ‘reductionism” and “scientism” etc. and think you are doing a disservice to the cause of taking science seriously. Are you among the Wieseltiers? I’d like to think not, but you are certainly being pulled in by them.

Best wishes,

Dan

=-=-=-=-=-
From: Michael Ruse
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:03 PM
To: Dennett, Daniel C.
Cc: ‘Michael Fisher’
Subject: your letter

Dear Dan:

Each Sunday I turn with fear and trembling to the letters page of the New York Times Book Review, searching for the scathing letter that you and Pinker penned about my inadequacies. Each Sunday, with my name unmentioned, I then turn with relief to the Week in Review to read instead about the inadequacies of others. Are you flying under the radar of the editors of that particular organ?

Ever yours in Charles Darwin,

Michael

Comments
johnnyb: yours is an interesting query which has been discussed at great length on other threads, but I will restate quickly the main feeling I personally have on this subject: people do not accept Darwinism on scientific grounds. They have a pre-existing INNER INCLINATION towards viewpoints which are materialistic or non-materialistic. I believe this is the single great basic divide among humans, which can be seen over and over again in countless fields and which underlies nearly every major current debate. Worldview is a development from out of the spiritual core of the human being, and is only secondarily informed by the educational institutions and professors. this is the reason why so many highly educated people accept Darwinism and defend it with such fervor. They do so because it appears to provide an objective and scientific rationale for their materialism. It is the same urge which motivates many orthodox religious people to defend indefensible religious views: they just KNOW from deep down inside that there is some core truth about religion, and so they dig in their heels and from a defensive posture, shoot down every criticism, no matter how valid. From this perspective, the defensive perspective, truth becomes far less important than the maintainance of the worldview status quo, from which existential security is derived. The basic intuition that life is too complex to be the result of chance will win because it is true, and TRUTH always prevails in the end because it alone can command the forces of the universe which were all born from out of truth.tinabrewer
February 21, 2006
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"Most people (~85%) have enough sense to realize that random tinkering can’t produce a computer program as complicated as Mozart, no matter how much time is allowed."

What has always bothered me is this:

Why is it that normal people understand this intuitively, but highly educated people don't? What is it, specifically, that they do to people in higher education to destroy such obvious intuitions? It isn't the evidence -- the evidence is clearly on our side.

What is it that academics are telling their PhD students that is so convincing?

Highly educated too often translates to brainwashed by academy dogma. Autodidacts are just as knowledgable but aren't brainwashed. Highly educated doesn't automatically translate to having much common sense either. Also highly educated engineers whose profession is intelligent design are much more likely to recognize intelligent design in nature i.e. it takes one to know one. Who is better qualified to make a design inferences than professional designers? -ds johnnyb
February 21, 2006
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Jasonng: “Ruse knows what’s going on; at least he knows why ID is winning, it’s because of hardline atheists like Dennett and Dawkins. But he will be listened to by few and the imminent collapse of Darwinism will surprise many of them.” The hard-line atheists certainly don’t help the Darwinist cause. In a previous post I pointed out that many Darwinians have become adamant about avoiding words like unplanned, unguided and purposeless, even though, by definition, the process of random mutation and natural selection is unplanned, unguided and purposeless. They know that the theory just drips with philosophical nihilism, and they don’t want to be exposed as peddling anti-religious, nihilistic metaphysics to other people’s children. Dennett and Dawkins keep waving red flags, drawing attention to this very thing. But ID will primarily win because of evidence and reason. Blind-watchmaker gradualism simple doesn’t fit the evidence, and is in principle incapable of producing what is claimed for it. Most people (~85%) have enough sense to realize that random tinkering can’t produce a computer program as complicated as Mozart, no matter how much time is allowed. So, Darwinism will lose for two reasons: It is bad metaphysics and it is bad science.GilDodgen
February 21, 2006
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If Dennett never said anything else, this alone:
"I think the NYTBR is under the spell of the Darwin dreaders."
would be enough to show he's disconnected from realityTomG
February 21, 2006
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A Curtain Lifts a Little An e-mail exchange between two ardent and public defenders of evolution (Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett) reveals their views of the public relations war surrounding evolution/intellegent design.  Kinda "inside baseball", but there is also the hBurtonia Blogs
February 21, 2006
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evolution is losing ground in the political arena for sure.

Look at what happened in Turkey. It's a case of evolution losing the political battle.

I.D. still has a long way to go before it can compete scientifically, which is exactly what Phillip Johnson said the other day.

"The hypothesis of intelligent design, while being developed, is not complete enough to be taught in the classroom, Phillip Johnson, professor emeritus of law at the University of California at Berkeley, said during a lecture at Knox College Friday."

Is taught defined as teachers shall cannot even mention the existence of an intelligent design hypothesis? If it is then I think Phillip Johnson is wrong. Is taught further defined as teachers shall not criticize neoDarwinian theory? If it is then Phil is wrong there too. Criticisms of neoDarwinian theory are certainly well enough developed to teach even if the specific criticism entailed in design inference is not. -ds Fross
February 21, 2006
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Two thoughts: first of all, Ruse protests a bit too much, methinks, about Dennett and Dawkins' demonizing of Christianity. Hasn't he done the same, seeing that his main strategy has been to instigate the fear of -- in his words, mind you -- Christians coming to throw sinner into concentration camps. That was his argument against Dembski on Nightline: if we don't fight against ID, they'll throw us into concentration camps. Ruse does seem like a good egg, and I love the fact that he obviously speaks from genuine conviction, but he's just as guilty of fear-mongering and exaggeration as Dawkins. Second, when OH WHEN is the Discovery Institute going to respond in kind to the attack on ID, that it would constitute a "state-established religion"? What is dogmatic Darwinism and the Dover decision, if not state-established religious materialism? Johnson stated this outright in his review of Darwin's Dangerous Idea: "Daniel Dennett's fertile imagination is captivated by the very dangerous idea that the neo-Darwinian theory of biological evolution should become the basis for what amounts to an established state religion of scientific materialism." This should be the talking point for ever DI member and ID sympathizer in the world. We should be hammering this point home until it sinks into the public consciousness, because it's true. Darwinism is underwritten by the unexamined assumption of religious materialism. This is an idea that the public can understand, and which will animate our allies. But it hasn't sunk in. Meanwhile the PT and NCSE crowd make hay with all the religious talk. In my opinion they're getting away with a colossal philosophical ruse. I know this is a basic argument that every DI member agrees with. Why haven't they focussed all their efforts in drilling this into the public consciousness? The political fate of ID is NOT going to turn on the nuance of Irreducible Complexity. The public needs a simple idea that confirms their intuition about the magesterial fiat that Darwinism has enjoyed for too long. Let's out it as religion and not let up until the public gets it.dave
February 21, 2006
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do you think Michael Ruse means that Darwinism is losing the battle in the scientific arena? I think not. It sounds to me like he has the academician's standard contempt for the uneducated and unwashed masses who care more about religion than science. I think he means that Darwinism is losing the PR battle, since said masses are being skillfully manipulated by the ID architects. Not that I agree, mind you. I was following a chain of links and posts the other day and came upon a wonderful DaveScot passage which was on some other person's blog wherein ds basically scoffs at the consistently levelled charge on the part of Darwinians that there is no ID research program. Way to tell 'em ds. I never hear this defense when I listen to debates, etc. The evidence from all past inquiries really belongs to everyone, as is the nature of science. Incidentally, I have always wondered why this blog avoids in principle the discussion of the philosophical aspect/implications of ID theory. I understand perfectly the need to hone the scientific argument, but given the very nature of humans, who are driven by philosophy/worldview considerations, it feels a little artificial to avoid it so rigidly.tinabrewer
February 21, 2006
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I had the opportunity to mingle around Mr. Ruse and observe his demeanor at a recent conference at a Baptist Church. Up to this point, I had always dismissed him as a "jovial buffoon" (to use a Davisonism), but he went up a small notch on my respect-o-meter as I saw him interact with sincere people of faith with a humble, respectful and friendly attitude. I still think he is so entrenched in his deep-seated philosophical bias that he won't let himself be honest about the evidence which chips away at the foundation of his Darwinian faith.Scott
February 21, 2006
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Michael Ruse at least respects his opponents, whereby he himself commands respect. And he cares enough about ordinary people to preach against what he sees as falsehood, which also commands respect.BenK
February 21, 2006
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Hi Dave. I understand the bit about one's emails perhaps showing up on the front page of the New York Times. However, my curiousity was about about whether Ruse had Dennett's permission to pass Dennett's emails on, not whether Dennett should be surprised that it happened. Do you know? did Ruse's statement of permission to post his [Ruse's] emails also include permission from Dennett to include his?

I'm sure I have no idea and I'm also sure that's a matter between Ruse and Dennett that is none of our business. Emails by default include previous emails and one must always assume there are blind copies going to interested 3rd parties. -ds Jack Krebs
February 21, 2006
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This post provides wonderful insight into the dialogs that usually remain hidden from us unwashed masses. Ruse's honesty is encouraging - even if you disagree with his position you must appreciate that this isn't a game to him and he seems to want truth.dougmoran
February 21, 2006
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Ruse knows what's going on; at least he knows why ID is winning, it's because of hardline atheists like Dennett and Dawkins. But he will be listened to by few and the imminent collapse of Darwinism will surprise many of them.jasonng
February 20, 2006
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clearly their use of language shows the kind of morals Darwinian evolution leads to. Only the strongest words survive :)

In my ever so meager and humble opinion, I think evolution theory's biggest hurdle is how it can fit with some certain religious beliefs. We all know this is what the issue is about. I don't mean to downplay I.D. at all but the majority of its support and success hasn't been driven by the science aspect of it, but the religious aspect of it. When the Dover decision came down, W.D. didn't say "we have some papers coming out soon that will counter this decision". He said the Christian community will be galvanized by this decision.

Statements like these from Dawkins, Dennett, and Dembski make me feel it's some big theological discussion and I suppose they're probably right. I'd rather see both sides discuss endogenous retroviruses and leave the religious issues out of it for now.

I'd rather see both sides discuss endogenous retroviruses and leave the religious issues out of it for now. Amen. -ds Fross
February 20, 2006
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It pains me to say this but Ruse seems like a good egg... for a Darwinian girly man! :-)DaveScot
February 20, 2006
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I am curious - did Ruse have permission to release Dennett's part of the exchange?

There's an old admonition dating back to Arpanet days that goes something like this
Never send an email that you wouldn't want to see in the newspaper the next day.
Jack Krebs
February 20, 2006
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