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Theology at BioLogos: An Invitation to Drs. Falk and Venema

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Dr. Dennis Venema, lead geneticist over at BioLogos, whose evasiveness regarding divine action in evolution we thoroughly documented here, here, here, and here, appears to have noticed our efforts.

In his latest column over at BioLogos, he writes to Bilbo (70458):

“I’ve appreciated your work to hold the feet of certain ID folks to the fire over at UD.”

I guess I must be “certain ID folks,” because Bilbo’s recent extensive argument was directed at me.

But let’s be clear: Bilbo’s argument was focused wholly on my claim that there was tension between neo-Darwinian evolution and the traditional Christian understanding of divine providence, governance, and sovereignty over nature. He disagreed with me over that. But he did not at all discuss — in fact he refused to discuss — the main concern of my article, which was to show that Drs. Venema and Falk were so evasive on the question of divine action in evolution that it was impossible to be sure whether their position was orthodox or not. So nothing in Bilbo’s discussion with me gets Dr. Venema off the charge of deliberate dodging and obfuscation.

In any case, why should Bilbo have to hold our feet to the fire, when Dr. Venema can do that himself? He is completely at liberty to write a series of columns on BioLogos clearly answering the questions which he systematically ducked when they were asked of him by Crude, and thus dispel the charge that he continues to be vague and evasive. Or, if he wishes, he can write an extensive answer here, under this column, and even (gasp!) engage in conversation with us. We are happy to have BioLogos people responding here, even if they disagree with us.

One of the ongoing frustrations that ID people have had with BioLogos is, of course, that many of the theological positions taken there appear to be somewhat unorthodox, but are stated so elliptically, allusively, and sporadically (scattered here and there across the site, in various columns and comments), that it is hard to determine exactly what the BioLogos writers actually believe. This is the perfect opportunity for Dr. Venema to remove this continuing communications problem, by stating clearly, in one place, his own personal view of how (if at all) God is involved in the evolutionary process.

For example, he could state: “I believe that, given laws of nature created and sustained by God, that a bacterium could easily evolve into a human being without any special divine action (steering, directing, nudging, etc. — whether at the macroscopic or at the quantum level). I believe that random mutations plus natural selection are sufficient causes for the transformation. Therefore I would not speak of ‘guidance,’ and I could have, and should have, said that to Crude.” Such an answer would do quite nicely.

Or, if he holds a different view, he could state, for example: “I believe that evolution proceeds exclusively through laws of nature which are created and sustained by God, but I also think that, in order to get life started in the first place, God had to create the first cells by special divine action, and I think that in order to turn a prehuman hominid into man, another special divine action would have been needed.”

Or, if he is of a different opinion, he could state: “I believe, along with Robert Russell, that evolution is directed by special actions of God which, though not capable of detection by scientific means, cause evolution to produce different results than it would if God did not perform those special actions.”

Or, if he is more inclined to a Dentonian scenario, he could state: “I believe that evolution was programmed into the first cells by God to produce a whole series of pre-determined outcomes, including man, by purely natural processes, without any special divine intervention needed after the process began.”

Or he could state anything else that reflects his true position.

And on the question about evolutionary outcomes, he could state: “I believe that every single species that was produced by the evolutionary process, was intended by God, and that God did not leave anything to chance, but made sure that the evolutionary process produced exactly those species.” Or, “I believe that God did not intend any particular outcome of evolution, not even man, but intended only the general process, leaving it up to contingency to determine the specific outcomes.” Or, “I believe that God intended certain very specific outcomes of evolution, including man, but I also believe that he left a number of evolutionary outcomes (e.g., the color of the blue jay, or the existence of unicorns or legless lizards) to chance.”

And on the question of God’s love of “freedom” he could state whether by that he means only that God leaves the human will free (to accept or reject God), or whether he means that subhuman nature is also “free”; and in the latter case, in what sense a rock or a solar flare or a protein molecule is “free.”

On more general theological questions, he might indicate to us what denomination he belongs to and/or what theological school he subscribes to. We know that Dr. Falk thinks of himself as a “Wesleyan”; does Dr. Venema have the same self-identification? Or would he call himself “Arminian”? Or something else?

Answers such as these would greatly facilitate ID/TE dialogue. If we knew where Drs. Venema and Falk stood on the question of divine involvement in evolution, as clearly as we know where Dr. Coyne stands and where Dr. Denton stands and where Dr. Behe stands and where Dr. Russell stands, we would be much less likely to impute to them views which they do not hold, and to criticize them for such. But as it stands, we have to guess, from hints and ambiguous statements and evasions, what our TE friends probably believe, and it’s inevitable that we will sometimes guess wrongly. We’re not mind-readers — and in a serious academic discussion of theology and science, we shouldn’t have to be.

So I turn it over to Dr. Venema and Dr. Falk. Would either of those gentlemen care to drop in here and present a coherent, articulate account of his personal view concerning divine involvement in evolution? We are open to any and all explanations of how God is connected with evolution — we request only that we not be subjected to another repetition of the Wesleyan Maneuver.

Comments
Falk and Venema don’t see it, either. But their reason is different. Whereas you think that neo-Darwinian processes can yield quasi-guaranteed results, and therefore see no problem with a Darwinian Christian theology of creation, Falk and Venema know that neo-Darwinian evolution *can’t* yield quasi-guaranteed results, but *still* think there is no problem with a Darwinian Christianity.
Well what you are saying about the science is just bunk. People with a sufficiently high opinion of natural selection think that convergence dominates and that similar adaptations will thus reappear in similar environments. Notably, this is something that Dawkins and Simon Conway Morris agree on, despite the former being an atheist and the latter a theist. The alternative view, advanced by Gould, was that evolution is a very "chancy" process, but Gould was a *critic* of classic neo-Darwinism -- classic neo-Darwinism is committed to the position that nonrandom selection dominates random chance in evolution. This confusion -- derived from creationist propaganda that [insert surfer voice] "evolution is just so random, dude" -- may be at the root of a lot of your hairsplitting here.NickMatzke_UD
June 16, 2012
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“BioLogos is not being asked how or when or where anything happened, but only to confirm that it happened, i.e., that God did indeed play some active role in guaranteeing evolutionary outcomes.” - Thomas Unless you are challenging whether or not BioLogos people are Christians, Thomas (whatever you mean by that signifier) your question seems of little relevance. They are Christians; therefore they believe “God did indeed play some active role.” Evolutionary creation is in one way or another ‘guaranteed.’ So what’s the big fuss about? Are you not simply asking them to adopt ID language as their own instead of allowing them to choose their own linguistic preferences? “I want them to explain how that model of evolution can guarantee any results” - Thomas Does this not prove that you actually do want them to answer: how? Are you not asking for a guarantee from them that you cannot guarantee yourself, except for within your subjective, personal theology? “the last 50 years or so when all the traditions more or less caved in to liberalism” – Thomas (from 2B anti-BioLogos) Sorry, but I don’t share your pessimism regarding ‘liberalism’. I’ve seen enough ‘conservatism’ in recent years to highlight it as well. I believe in development of tradition and I’ve lived within the ‘other traditions’ from yours for the past 10 years. In the past 30 years, Thomas, have you lived outside of the U.S. for more than 3 months at a time or have you converted to a different branch or denomination within Christendom, thus allowing yourself to consider ‘liberalism’ with more than one lens? Wrt whether or not “the science is driving the theology” or vice versa, this is an important topic. From my observations of ID (& I’m assuming Thomas calls himself an IDer) it claims to be scientific and thus avoids theology as much as possible in a kind of variation on the Gouldian NOMA approach. Sure, there are overtures to theology within the IDM, such as Johnson’s reborn evangelicalism and Dembski’s work on “Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology” and more recently, “The End of Christianity” (technically not an ID work). But the general tendency is to claim ‘science-only’ wrt ID (which is where nulasallus, Jon Garvey, Timaeus and I disagree with the IDM). Do you dispute the IDM’s focus on ID-as-science, Thomas, even while you are trained in theology and not in natural sciences? Personally, Thomas, I don’t see Christianity as having come to an end or as potentially coming to an end anytime soon. Perhaps that is my unfortunate naivety compared with you. Liberalism has been and at times will continue to be healthy within Christendom, in contrast with conservatism. It would seem strange if you would deny this; it would seem hyper-conservative apologetically. “The first unorthodoxy lies [in] the specific contents of the view of BioLogos: the view that God might not be in control of every aspect of creation.” – Thomas Actually, I don’t see that as ‘unorthodoxy’ within Christendom. Do you not include free human choice as an aspect of creation, Thomas? If not, I don’t see how it would be ‘unorthodox’ for human beings to have/possess free will in contrast to what you seem to be promoting, as if every choice we make as individuals is ‘controlled.’ Again, Venema’s deferral to a higher question of ‘free will vs. predestination’ seems like a legitimate move on the topic. And in fact, speaking as an IDer, you cannot address the topic because “IDM-ID has nothing to do with theology, but only with science.” So, Venema took the discussion to a higher level than you-as-IDer can go. But of course, you are not limited to ID-science either! Your second ‘unorthodoxy’ opens up too many other questions that would take us away from the topic at hand. “Whatever process God used to create the world, it would be one in which the outcomes were exactly what he planned.” “for God to be in providential control of evolution, he would have to be involved in planning and/or governing in a much clearer way than BioLogos is willing to acknowledge.” – Thomas Yes, maybe so. So here’s the question, Thomas: how do you personally ‘detect’ or ‘prove’ or ‘identify’ the ‘providential control of evolution’ in a way that you can concretely convey to others? Is it only theologically? At this point, I don’t yet hear anything coming from you that hasn’t come already from Falk and BioLogos. Indeed, you seem to be ‘of the same cloth,’ so to speak. If you are not asking for scientific or philosophical ‘proof’ of the ‘control,’ ‘guidance,’ ‘intervention’ or ‘purpose’ within the ‘real’ evolutionary process of natural history, then what are you actually asking for? A simple theological nod of the head – “yes, evolution is guided,” but you can’t say how? That would prove very little that the choir hasn’t sung before. As Jon Garvey noted: “the role of God cannot be proven.” Surely he doesn’t mean theologically unprovable? So, again, what’s the problem? It seems IDers, including for now Jon Garvey (though unconfirmed), are attacking the theology of BioLogos, evangelical American Christians as they are, not Reformed enough, not Calvinist enough, not ‘orthodox’ enough,’ while they offer nothing concrete or specific in return, certainly not on the scientific level in the dialogue between science and religion. “Evangelicals have been the ones maintaining that God acts objectively in the world.” – Jon Garvey Here is a clear example of demanding evangelical ‘orthodoxy’ on a topic that involves religion *and* science. Catholics and Orthodox (as well as Muslims, Jews and Baha’is) demand the same things, but Jon wants to speak primarily about evangelical Protestants, at a site (UD) that is ‘beyond denominational’. If you’re going to criticise the ‘evangelicalism’ at BioLogos on behalf of ID, Jon, you’re simply reinforcing the irrelevance of theology at UD and wrt ID on the topic of evolution and creation. You are thus indirectly perpetuating the notion that ID is simply about natural science and not about theology (or philosophy) at all. Are you o.k. with that? “So the course of evolution must be somehow guided, or steered, or directed, or nudged, or programmed, or preset, or front-loaded, or designed, etc. And choose whatever terms you wish; if they are clear in meaning to a normal English-speaking person, BioLogos will waffle or hedge on all of them, without substituting any unambiguous language in their place.” – Thomas Sorry, again Thomas, but have you read BioLogos’ webpage? They say clearly and without any obfuscation: “We believe that God continues to be directly involved in human history in acts of salvation, personal transformation, and answers to prayer…evolution is not in opposition to God, but a means by which God providentially achieves his purposes.” I am not their apologist, but neither am I their theological judge and accuser. There doesn’t seem to be any waffling or hedging in those definitions. Again, it seems you have only a theistic (denomination) disagreement and not a scientific one with BioLogos. “I don’t think that Christians should surrender the doctrine of divine sovereignty, or even defend it in a muted and oblique way, merely because modern people are enamored with the notion of “freedom”.” – Thomas And I don’t either, Thomas. However, you should be clear that you are not defending a completely closed notion of free will, a throw-away of sovereignty. This is so especially if you are not willing to defend some notion of ‘openness’ and thus ‘absence of control’ or ‘hegemony’ (or something deterministic-sounding) in your challenges to BioLogos scientists. Again, I am not BioLogos’ defender. But do you really not see that ‘free will’ vs. ‘predestination’ is at issue here, which your personal theological preference (as well as mine and anyone else reading this) influences? Once you acknowledge that whether or not “God guarantees results” hinges on a person’s view of free will vs. predestination, progress toward reconciliation with BioLogos can commence. Wrt your claim that “man’s chief end is not freedom,” I suggest you read some works by Nikolai Berdyaev and/or Vladimir Solovyev. This speaks to the interest of a growing number of Protestants to look eastwards in order to address some of the questions that western-oriented Christianity (e.g. USA mired in YECism) has failed to resolve. In Berdyaev especially you will find a new view of freedom from your western one that enraptures rather than captivates. You will realise why ‘reformed’ and ‘designed’ sound so past-tense, ‘closed’ and backwards-looking, rather than the alternative ‘reforming’ and ‘designing,’ which are current and forward-looking and co-creative, along the lines of ‘open’ theology and EC visions. “If BioLogos made it clear, beyond the possibility of misunderstanding, that by theistic evolution they did *not* mean that God was guiding the process of evolution toward particular ends, but in fact that God left the process to work on its own — many moderate evangelicals would jump ship, opting for ID, OEC, or even YEC. Theistic evolution for many Christians must mean guided evolution, or it’s no sale.” – Thomas This is partly why they have adopted the term ‘evolutionary creation’ rather than ‘theistic evolution.’ And I didn’t realise UD was in the business of speaking for or to ‘moderate evangelicals’ in so far as the defense of ID was concerned. EC (and TE) means ‘guided evolution,’ don’t worry yourself over this, Thomas. Please don’t misinterpret me: the so-called ‘Wesleyan Maneuver’ is a clever name in the theological realm, Thomas (much more effective than ‘Christian Darwinist’). But what specific home-denominational tradition of your own would do you wish to put up against this, Thomas? Since ID defends no particular religious tradition(s), it is vulnerable to the recent claim of BioLogos senior fellow Ard Louis, that “ID is simply not Christian enough.” Gregory p.s. for the record, I agree with Thomas and think Bilbo is wrong about Christianity plus neo-Darwinism because he doesn’t seem to understand ideology in contrast with science; this is a common mistake. Thomas' “why ID people are so exercised over the question” however makes little sense given the professed aim of ID-as-science, which has ‘nothing whatsoever to do with theology.’ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/theology-at-biologos-the-wesleyan-maneuver-part-2b/Gregory
June 16, 2012
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Bilbo: "From what I’ve read at BioLogos, that would seem to be their position." I already agreed with you, in our earlier discussion, that this probably is the private view of both Falk and Venema, and of most of the regular columnists on BioLogos. The question is why they so frequently tippy-toe around saying it so plainly as I have said it. Why did they string Crude along for so long, and even when they finally answered him, why did they not state their view as clearly as you and I have? The only reason that makes any sense to me is that they fear that a number of moderate evangelicals would be upset by such a belief, and so they try to say it in a beat-around-the-bush way rather than directly. Why would moderate evangelicals be upset by such a belief? Because many of them assume that "theistic evolution" means "evolution directed by God" -- evolution in which God steers the process in one way or another, perhaps by generating favorable mutations at strategic times. This is what Asa Gray suggested, and what Darwin utterly rejected. Behe has often been understood to be suggesting something like "guided evolution" -- though actually he has never committed himself to that -- and insofar as he has been understood by TEs (at BioLogos and elsewhere) as supporting something like that, he has been rebuffed by the TEs as firmly as Gray was by Darwin. In other words, the popular conception of "theistic evolution" -- the one almost universally held, from the time of Darwin until about 25 years ago, when the current crop of TE/EC and BioLogos people drastically modified the notion -- was that evolution was driven by a mix of natural causes and divine manipulation. This makes evolution palatable for many moderate evangelicals. If BioLogos made it clear, beyond the possibility of misunderstanding, that by theistic evolution they did *not* mean that God was guiding the process of evolution toward particular ends, but in fact that God left the process to work on its own -- many moderate evangelicals would jump ship, opting for ID, OEC, or even YEC. Theistic evolution for many Christians must mean guided evolution, or it's no sale. "They argue that neo-Darwinian evolution is able to provide a large probability that human-like creatures would result." I have read a good fraction of all the columns that BioLogos has ever published. I've never seen this argument (which better fits the *non*-Darwinian evolutionary scheme of Michael Denton) advanced as an official BioLogos view, and I've never even seen it advanced by any BioLogos columnist. Please provide links for me to the columns where this argument has been made. "If they are mistaken, then I think it is an empirical mistake. Not a theological one." I will remind you of our earlier disagreement over the interpretation of neo-Darwinism. You continue to regard neo-Darwinian evolution as a near-deterministic process where results follow logically from initial conditions, whereas I hold the conventional view -- the view of Darwin, Mayr, Gaylord Simpson, Dobzhansky, Gould, and most of the leading evolutionary theorists of the 20th century and virtually all the popular science writers of the 20th century -- that neo-Darwinian evolution is a highly contingent process, and very open-ended, with outcomes utterly unpredictable. The people who have come the closest to saying that evolution can guarantee results -- people like Denton, or, in a softer version, Conway Morris -- are people who are more or less critical of the neo-Darwinian formulation of evolution -- precisely because of its chanciness. It is because of your idiosyncratic interpretation of neo-Darwinism that you see no possibility of a "theological mistake" in putting together neo-Darwinism with Christianity. If you understood neo-Darwinism as most of the debaters understand it, you would see neo-Darwinism as championing a very chancy process, and therefore you would understand why its compatibility with traditional Christian understandings of God's omnipotence, providence, governance, etc. is highly dubious. In short, I think your repeated failure to grasp the theological issue between ID people and TE people is rooted in your non-standard understanding of exactly what neo-Darwinism is saying. Of course, you aren't the only one who fails to see why ID people are so exercised over the question. Falk and Venema don't see it, either. But their reason is different. Whereas you think that neo-Darwinian processes can yield quasi-guaranteed results, and therefore see no problem with a Darwinian Christian theology of creation, Falk and Venema know that neo-Darwinian evolution *can't* yield quasi-guaranteed results, but *still* think there is no problem with a Darwinian Christianity. The difference between your confusion and their confusion is this: your confusion is built on a faulty understanding of neo-Darwinism, but after that, your position is logically quite consistent; Falk and Venema, on the other hand, have a proper understanding of neo-Darwinism, but are completely lacking in logical consistency in the way that they try to put it together with the Christian understanding of providence, governance, etc. And when, in the course of debate with others, they start to sense the incoherence of their position, they try to excuse the incoherence by treating God's action in evolution as profound paradox, as divine "mystery," and so on. But this evasion has never been acceptable to ID people, and increasingly -- as we see in the remarks of Crude, nullasalus, Jon Garvey and others -- it is not acceptable to the more thoughtful TE people, either.Thomas Cudworth
June 16, 2012
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"Davis", not "David".Jon Garvey
June 16, 2012
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Bilbo
What they don’t believe is that God sometimes acted miraculously in natural history.
Strictly speaking Darrel (in reply to Dembski) said that God may perhaps act supernaturally in natural history (that's an oxymoron, sorry), though he wouldn't actually respond to requests to clarify that qualitatively or quantitatively. BioLogos does, however, as you say seem to accept daily special providence, answered prayer etc. But that again raises issues - since clearly no "top-down" causation is going to cover that, it requires the multiplication of supernatural intervention to an extent that's even more problematic than allowing it in evolution. As I thought when reading Darrel Falk's original article, part of the fault is in following the stark (and probably false) Enlightenment dichotomy of "natural" and "supernatural". Once again, Russell covers this well (everybody ought to read him, Ted David tells me), but it doesn't alter the underlying issue: is the probable evolution of something akin to humanity a theologically adequate statement of the work of God within creation? That's something important to discuss, but most of the discussion so far is here, rather than at BioLogos. I'll be interested to see how Dennis V responds to your coaxing on his thread there.Jon Garvey
June 16, 2012
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Jon: "Bilbo, most mainstream theological accounts of divine providence have to do with rescue from persecution, meeting of daily need, recovery from illness and so on, rather than merely a large probability of human-like creatures evolving." Jon, you should know as well as I do that BioLogos believes that God rescues from persecution, meets our daily needs, provides recovery from illness and so on, and is willing to believe that God sometimes does this miraculously. What they don't believe is that God sometimes acted miraculously in natural history.Bilbo I
June 16, 2012
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Bilbo, most mainstream theological accounts of divine providence have to do with rescue from persecution, meeting of daily need, recovery from illness and so on, rather than merely a large probability of human-like creatures evolving. Russell points directly to these aspects, and the direct Scriptural statements about God's provision for individual creatures, in suggesting the inadequacy of "statistical deism" and suggesting one particular form of NIODA (non-interventive objective divine action) via quantum indeterminacy. Historically, limitation to such top-down causation has belonged to the liberal theological wing, and attribution of individual "providences" to God as a purely subjective response of faith. Evangelicals have been the ones maintaining that God acts objectively in the world. An organisation advertising itself as Evangelical should surely clarify its position on such a significant theological divide?Jon Garvey
June 16, 2012
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Thomas: "I prefer plain, simple English. If their position is “God did nothing in evolution except sustain the laws of nature, and random mutations and natural selection took care of all the rest” — then that’s what I’d like them to say, straight out, with no pussyfooting around. And yes, I would find that specific enough." From what I've read at BioLogos, that would seem to be their position. "And after they have said that, I want them to explain how that model of evolution can guarantee any results, which it must be able to guarantee if God’s providence is not to be thwarted." They argue that neo-Darwinian evolution is able to provide a large probability that human-like creatures would result (which is usually what everyone is worried about when they talk about God's providence). And if it is a large probability, then by simply making the probable resources large enough, this in effect "guarantees" the results. If they are mistaken, then I think it is an empirical mistake. Not a theological one.Bilbo I
June 16, 2012
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I've been reading (and blogging on) R J Russell, probably the most Evangelical-friendly of the current theologians of science. I think he would describe the position of Dennis Venema and other leaders at BioLogos as "statistical deism" (ie that God works in evolution only top-down through initial creation, natural laws and sustaining existence), which he says has hitherto been the commonest theistic evolution position. But he points out its weakness in not accounting for any possibility of divine action. Which is what Thomas Cudworth has been saying all along - the experts have noticed it as well. Divine action is central to formulating theistic evolution, given the claims of people like Sagan that evolution leaves nothing for God to do and, from the Christian viewpoint, that evolution offers insufficient means for God to achieve his creative and eschatological purposes. That's why it has been extensively discussed by science and faith academics over several decades. Yet BioLogos (in my 3 years of activity there) has barely interacted with that debate - I only became aware of it through Russell. The "big hitters" in the field, including Ian Barbour, Arthur Peacocke, John Polkinghorne, Nancey Murphy and Russell himself, have barely warranted a mention there, only Polkinghorne even appearing on their "Perspectives" page (where even William Dembski and Behe get a mention). Venema, for example, spends whole series (like his present one) in demonstrating that natural processes cope quite well on their own, which may or may not put egg on the face of Michael Behe, but does nothing whatever to progress the "theistic" bit of "theistic evolution". You can be sure that those in the recent Gallup poll who put theistic evolution well above naturalistic evolution (though below creationism!) in the US popularity stakes do so because they strongly believe that God somehow acts to guide evolution. So why is BioLogos, the leading organisation promoting TE, so indifferent to (and evasive about) the issue, and to the high-powered academic debate surrounding it for the last 30 years or so? Why are they so indifferent to Russell (with the exception of Ted Davis, a newcomer) who is far closer to building a rapprochement between historic Christianity and science than the likes of Michael Ruse and Francisco Ayala? The options would seem to be either that they are ignorant about the issue, or that they want to be ignorant about it because of some kind of prior commitments.Jon Garvey
June 16, 2012
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Thomas, I wanted to thank you for highlighting some of the discussion points in the various Wesleyan threads; I had largely glossed over those thinking I wasn't interested in the main topics but there's stuff in there that I am interested in and am always asking about! I am going to read those four threads now. Also thanks for your short summary of Dr Behe's view. I found that very helpful as well.Jerad
June 15, 2012
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Bilbo: "So let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that Falk and Venema believe that God did not intervene in natural history and that the universe normally operates by statistically probable but undetermined quantum events. Would that be specific enough for you?" The second part -- "and that the universe normally operates by statistically probable but undetermined quantum events" -- would not be acceptable unless it was further explained, because it seems to be offering some sort of subtle qualification (which might be a carefully prepared escape hatch) to the first part -- "God did not intervene in natural history" -- which is quite clear. Does "normally" give Falk and Venema the option of saying, "maybe he intervened in the Cambrian explosion and maybe he didn't?" And does "quantum events" give them the option of pretending, much later in the discussion, that they really were defending the position of Russell, even though they've never given him the time of day on BioLogos, until Ted Davis came along, and even though Russell believes that evolution was guided -- a word which Venema refuses to use? Your addition smells of "preparing Plan B in case the argument goes bad." I prefer plain, simple English. If their position is "God did nothing in evolution except sustain the laws of nature, and random mutations and natural selection took care of all the rest" -- then that's what I'd like them to say, straight out, with no pussyfooting around. And yes, I would find that specific enough. And after they have said that, I want them to explain how that model of evolution can guarantee any results, which it must be able to guarantee if God's providence is not to be thwarted.Thomas Cudworth
June 15, 2012
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Nick (12): Thanks for your (implicit) concession that you were wrong about Denton. (I realize that a silent retreat from a point is the closest you are ever going to come to an admission of error in my presence.) Falk and Venema were never asked to describe "the detailed workings of the mind of God." They were ask to state -- without any requirement of scientific proof -- how they conceived of God as acting in evolution. They were asked what, if anything, they thought God *did* in evolution, beyond sustaining the laws of nature. They could have answered: "He did nothing beyond sustain the laws of nature" or they could have answered: "He performed special divine actions at key points" or they could have answered many other things -- copious possibilities were listed above, and they were not meant as an exhaustive set of responses. They simply chose to withhold their private opinions. As for Behe, I find nothing objectionable in giving more than one possible delivery system for design; what is wrong for a Christian is equivocating on the existence of design in the first place. Falk and Venema appear to do the latter. Maybe man was intended from the first, and maybe he wasn't; maybe mice were intended, and maybe they weren't; maybe the process of evolution itself was designed but none of its results were designed; maybe God's providence rules over all events, but maybe God wouldn't have guaranteed everything in advance because a "Wesleyan" God would want nature to be "free"; maybe God specially intervenes in the evolutionary process and maybe he just lets natural processes take their course, etc. Behe is absolutely clear that if Darwinian processes were the main vehicle of evolution, they would need to be supplemented by interventions, and that, alternately, if the process were wholly non-interventionist, it would need to be pre-programmed in some way. God's sovereignty over the results of evolution is assured either way. But you can't assure God's sovereignty over the results of evolution when your only absolute commitment is to neo-Darwinian mechanisms (which can't guarantee even a single evolutionary result), and when you are slyly flirting with open theism under the guise of "Wesleyanism." Of course, Behe was only one thinker out of four that I named, and the local point I was making stands even without my reference to him; the local point was that many others are clear about God's role in evolution, while Falk and Venema are not. And even that local point is not required for my overall argument, since it would be quite possible for Falk and Venema to be clear even if no one else in the debate was. There is nothing inherently difficult in stating one's view on whether special action beyond the laws of nature would be required to get evolution to desired ends, or on whether God in fact had specific desired ends for the evolutionary process. So if you were really interested in a constructive conversation on the issue raised in the column, you'd discuss that issue, instead of seizing on a possible weakness in a single example. I get the strong impression that you haven't even read the 4-part series that preceded this one, and the detailed clarifications that followed in the comments section; I get the impression you just dropped in here, gave the column above a quick read, and started your usual fault-finding schtick. I don't spend hours carefully researching and crafting these columns so that intellectual tourists can come in and practice their drive-by shooting skills. If you are not going to address the substance of the whole series -- were Falk and Venema justified in stringing Crude along endlessly when they could have just answered him? -- and if you are not going to demonstrate familiarity with my analysis of the conversation between Crude, Falk, and Venema, and of past BioLogos statements on divine action in evolution, then I'm not going to answer any further of your questions.Thomas Cudworth
June 15, 2012
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Hi Thomas, So let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Falk and Venema believe that God did not intervene in natural history and that the universe normally operates by statistically probable but undetermined quantum events. Would that be specific enough for you? Please try to keep your answer to around 50 words.Bilbo I
June 15, 2012
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but Venema and Falk are supposed to definitively put their foot down on claiming to know the detailed workings of the mind of God?
Funny, Nick. I read through this entire post and nowhere saw any demand that Venema and Falk "put their foot down on claiming to know the detailed workings of the mind of God". What's been asked for is a very basic statement of their view of God's knowledge and power, particularly related to evolution. The very fact that Behe, Denton and the rest are held up as examples despite their not giving exhaustive explanations of the operations of God show that what's being asked for here is not that level of detail. You say that Behe responds with "options and all kinds of vagueness", but that just illustrates the problem - Falk and Venema won't even do that. And that's all that's being asked of them: with Behe and company, insofar as they discuss God, they make it clear what the scope and power they see God as having with regards to evolution. And to be fair, some others who deny God can know various things - open theists, for example - state outright their views. We're waiting on Falk and Venema to do that. So thanks, Nick, for bolstering Cudworth's question here. The fact that Behe and company's statements are being used as the yardstick just illustrate how reasonable the question being asked of Venema and Falk is - and they have yet to answer even that. By the way, can we take your typical glossing over the correction - that Behe's criticism is of Darwinian pathways, not "natural" paths (wait, what does natural mean Nick? You never answered that one ;) - to be a silent concession that the correction is right, to be followed by you forgetting this the very next time you open you write about Behe? And should I take your dead silence over the question I put to you - "Nick? Are you saying that if evolution is entirely designed – if it is, in every act of selection and/or every act of variation, the result of a “trick pool shot” by a mind, that it is natural after all?" - to mean you have no answer, or the answer you have should involve shooting yourself in the foot to give it? Waiting on you, as ever.nullasalus
June 15, 2012
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But as for the delivery of the design, Behe gives options, including Dentonian front-loading, and interventions.
So, Behe is allowed options and all kinds of vagueness (how in the world could malaria or the genetic sequence of the bacterial flagellum be programmed into the Big Bang like a trick pool shot?????), but Venema and Falk are supposed to definitively put their foot down on claiming to know the detailed workings of the mind of God?NickMatzke_UD
June 15, 2012
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If either Drs Venema or Falk wished to respond to any of the EXPLICIT questions raised above, we would be happy to host a guest post (probably via UD News for technical convenience for our guests). Other guests have used the service in the past, and found it okay.News
June 15, 2012
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Nick: You can't have read Nature's Destiny, or at least, you can't have read it very carefully. Denton's view is not at all unclear. He says there are no interventions and that programmed designs unfold entirely through natural causes. And Behe's view is that there had to be some design involved -- that neo-Darwinian processes by themselves couldn't generate radically new body plans. But as for the delivery of the design, Behe gives options, including Dentonian front-loading, and interventions. Both of these options are compatible with traditional Christian understandings of Creation, "Wesleyan" as well as "Calvinist." What Behe's followers say is irrelevant, because I spoke only of Behe himself. And he doesn't say there are no natural pathways. He says there are no Darwinian pathways. (Or to be more precise, that Darwinian pathways are very, very unlikely for major structural changes.) Are you confusing "natural" with "Darwinian" because you haven't, in six or seven years of studying the subject, got Behe's thought straight, Nick? Or are you doing it deliberately, in a cheap attempt to score a debating point?Thomas Cudworth
June 15, 2012
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Gregory, you wrote: "Thomas C wants BioLogos to embolden itself enough to answer for him a question that he has no personal answer to: how (+ when and where) did God ‘intervene’ in, ‘guide’ or ‘design’ evolution? If Thomas C has an answer, surely he could include it here, openly, plainly, forthrightly." There is no point in my writing detailed and careful answers for you, Gregory, if you aren't going to read them. In Part 2B of my original posting, you asked me this question before, in comment 39, and I answered it in comment 40. You never responded to that, and now you ask the question over again. Also, I didn't even need to answer the question, because, as both nullasalus and I made clear to you in our answers, BioLogos is not being asked how or when or where anything happened, but only to confirm that it happened, i.e., that God did indeed play some active role in guaranteeing evolutionary outcomes. And they fudge even on that. Darrel Falk won't even say whether God intended mice, for example, and all he will say about man is that God "began" with man in mind -- implying that God might have changed his mind partway through the process. Not much of a guarantee of anything there. So much for governance, providence, omnipotence, etc. And Venema dodged every single term -- guided, purposive, etc. -- offered him, while refusing to substitute any term that was clearer or more precise. Neither of these fellows seems to want the public to know what, in their minds, is the extent of God's control over the outcomes of evolution. Why do you suppose that is?Thomas Cudworth
June 15, 2012
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Nick, Behe at one point compares it to a trick pool shot that sinks all the balls in one shot. But this statement contradicts what Behe and all his followers say in numerous other places, which is that Behe’s arguments disprove the idea there are natural pathways to complex systems of interest. Where does Behe say there are "no natural pathways" - as opposed to no Darwinian pathways that are likely enough? Cites, please. And does it really contradict it, Nick? Are you saying that if evolution is entirely designed - if it is, in every act of selection and/or every act of variation, the result of a "trick pool shot" by a mind, that it is natural after all? I'd love for you to give a response to this, since it was one of the questions you ran away from last time we spoke. And there is one difference between Behe and Falk/Venema - Behe has given no indication that he has any problem with God in advance knowing and determining the outcomes of evolution (Remember, Nick, Behe is not anti-evolution - he accepts common descent. It's the Darwinian version of evolution he targets.), just as Stephen Barr is entirely comfortable with God knowing and determining same. It's here where Falk and Venema have dodged. I wish Falk would clarify here, because he seems like a nice enough and sincere guy.nullasalus
June 15, 2012
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If we knew where Drs. Venema and Falk stood on the question of divine involvement in evolution, as clearly as we know where Dr. Coyne stands and where Dr. Denton stands and where Dr. Behe stands and where Dr. Russell stands
Wait wait wait. We know where Behe and Denton stand? Really? So where do they stand? Sometimes they seem to be arguing for divine intervention, but other times they seem to be arguing that the design was all front-loaded into the Big Bang, and it was all natural processes since then. Behe at one point compares it to a trick pool shot that sinks all the balls in one shot. But this statement contradicts what Behe and all his followers say in numerous other places, which is that Behe's arguments disprove the idea there are natural pathways to complex systems of interest. But you seem really sure that Behe and Denton are oh-so-much clearer than the TEs. So clarify for us, please.NickMatzke_UD
June 15, 2012
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Thomas C wants BioLogos to embolden itself enough to answer for him a question that he has no personal answer to: how (+ when and where) did God ‘intervene’ in, ‘guide’ or ‘design’ evolution?
Whether or not Thomas C has a personal answer to the question is irrelevant. I think this has been previously clearly explained to you:
BL is an explicitly Christian organization which claims a Christian mission. ... Thus, someone can ask Venema what role, if any, God plays in evolution or if God guides evolution in any way, and when Venema squirms and refuses to answer, it’s trouble. ... Venema’s part of an organization supposedly dedicated to showing that there’s no conflict between God/God’s acts and evolution. If Venema deals with any apparent conflict by eradicating God from the evolutionary picture, Ruse style, that doesn’t reflect well on BL. In contrast, ID isn’t committed to the idea that the designer of anything for which design is inferred is the Christian God.
cantor
June 15, 2012
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--Gregory: "Does ID have something to do with theology? If so, what?" It depends on which ID you are talking about. ID methodology, as expressed by Behe, Dembski, and Meyer has nothing at all to do with theology because it limits itself to an analysis of data. ID science, as understood by Hugh Ross, is intimately connected with Theology. So is ID philosophy/natural theology as understood by Thomas Aquinas. So is ID philosophy/natural theology as understood by Thomas Jefferson. See how easy it is to provide a straight answer to a straight question? --"Please read “as far as ID goes” again to understand the point, StephenB." I did read it. I have no idea what is means. Do you know what it means? You wrote it. --"Thomas C wants BioLogos to embolden itself enough to answer for him a question that he has no personal answer to: how (+ when and where) did God ‘intervene’ in, ‘guide’ or ‘design’ evolution?" ThomasC has not asked such a question. Perhaps you should go back and reread his comments since you are seriously mischaracterizing them. --"If Thomas C has an answer, surely he could include it here, openly, plainly, forthrightly." ThomasC has answered his own question many times just to set the right example. On the other hand, you (and the pundit/scientists at BioLogos) will not touch it. Why not? --"I’d be pleased to hear that ‘ID’ is properly a ‘science and religion’ topic instead of being just a ‘natural science’ (particularly biological) topic. But for whatever reason, IDers seem reluctant to admit this." If you want to discuss the religious implications of ID science, then ID is properly a science and religion topic. Now, how about addressing the topic of the tread.StephenB
June 15, 2012
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Oh yes, Gregory, and please provide your own personal response the question that Dennis Venema refuses to answer. Both Falk and Venema have evaded with issue. Will you continue to evade it as well?StephenB
June 15, 2012
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Does ID have something to do with theology? If so, what? Please read "as far as ID goes" again to understand the point, StephenB. Thomas C wants BioLogos to embolden itself enough to answer for him a question that he has no personal answer to: how (+ when and where) did God 'intervene' in, 'guide' or 'design' evolution? If Thomas C has an answer, surely he could include it here, openly, plainly, forthrightly. I'd be pleased to hear that 'ID' is properly a 'science and religion' topic instead of being just a 'natural science' (particularly biological) topic. But for whatever reason, IDers seem reluctant to admit this.Gregory
June 15, 2012
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Gregory:
Hmmm…I thought ID was particularly clear and insistent that it has *nothing* to do with theology?
Thus, IDers are not (as far as ID goes) interested in "theology and science" discussions, but only in natural science alone discussions.
Please explain the reasoning process that prompted you to conclude that advocates for ID science are not interested in discussions about theology and science. Also, please provide your own personal response to the question that Darrell Falk refuses to answer so that we can return to the theme that ThomasC wants to address.StephenB
June 15, 2012
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"in a serious academic discussion of theology and science" - Cudworth Hmmm...I thought ID was particularly clear and insistent that it has *nothing* to do with theology? Thus, IDers are not (as far as ID goes) interested in "theology and science" discussions, but only in natural science-alone discussions. That's a significant rub given the disciplinary insistency. This is indeed part of the gap between UD and BioLogos; the latter is openly interested in 'science and faith' discourse while the former is interested only in qualifying ID as a 'scientific theory.' Likewise, one is interested in 'origins,' while the other is interested in 'processes' of natural history. Is it any wonder then that Thomas is finding a disconnect regarding his and BioLogos' "personal views regarding divine involvement in evolution"? In fact I've *never* heard an IDer point to specific 'interventions' or 'guidance' (when, where, how) in/of 'design in evolution'. Have any of you?Gregory
June 15, 2012
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