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This is what a reply to an Intelligent Design argument looks like

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Three days ago, I posted a 123-word critique of unguided mechanisms for evolution as an explanation for the genes, proteins and different kinds of body plans found in living things. The critique was taken from Dr. Stephen C. Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt (Harper One, 2013), and I invited skeptics to rebut Dr. Meyer’s case, in 200 words or less. When I didn’t get a satisfactory rebuttal, I re-posted it. The critique read as follows:

“This book has presented four separate scientific critiques demonstrating the inadequacy of the neo-Darwinian mechanism, the mechanism that Dawkins assumes can produce the appearance of design without intelligent guidance. It has shown that the neo-Darwinian mechanism fails to account for the origin of genetic information because: (1) it has no means of efficiently searching combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins and, consequently, (2) it requires unrealistically long waiting times to generate even a single new gene or protein. It has also shown that the mechanism cannot produce new body plans because: (3) early acting mutations, the only kind capable of generating large-scale changes, are also invariably deleterious, and (4) genetic mutations cannot, in any case, generate the epigenetic information necessary to build a body plan.” (2013, pp. 410-411)

In response to an objection from ID skeptic Mark Frank, who wrote that Dr. Meyer “explains perceived weaknesses in his understanding of evolutionary theory but gives no reason why design is a better alternative,” I also quoted another short passage from Darwin’s Doubt, which made a positive case for Intelligent Design:

…[E]ach of the features of the Cambrian animals and the Cambrian fossil record that constitute negative clues – clues that render neo-Darwinism and other materialistic theories inadequate as causal explanations – also happen to be features of systems known from experience to have arisen as the result of intelligent activity. In other words, standard materialistic evolutionary theories have failed to identify an adequate mechanism or cause for precisely those attributes of living forms that we know from experience only intelligence – conscious rational activity – is capable of producing. That suggests, in accord with the method of historical scientific reasoning elucidated in the previous chapter, the possibility of making a strong historical inference to intelligent design as the best explanation for the origin of those attributes. (2013, p. 358)

While Mark Frank answered the first challenge I issued, he and other readers failed to address the second. So let me spell it out.

What I was looking for was a short scientific rebuttal of Dr. Meyer’s arguments, something along these lines (I’m making this stuff up):

Contrary to Dr. Meyer’s claim that the combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins is too large to be searched within the time available, scientists have calculated that functional proteins as short as 50 amino acids could have been generated within the space of 100 million years on the primordial Earth, within proto-cells near hydrothermal vents, and they have recently created artificial life-forms requiring only short amino-acid chains. What’s more, it turns out that the pathways between various proteins domains were in fact much shorter than previously believed, making the origin of the various proteins found in organisms today from a much smaller subset mathematically plausible. Scientists have also created a workable model of a developmentally plastic genome in which early acting mutations are nowhere near as harmful as in modern organisms. Finally, cell biologists have recently sketched a plausible hypothesis as to how the epigenetic information in the cell may have arisen, step-by-step. (Insert references here.)

That is what a proper reply to an Intelligent Design argument looks like. Maybe we’ll see one, in a decade or two. Who knows? But I’m not holding my breath. The case for Intelligent Design is built on cutting-edge science. The case for life having arisen by an unguided natural process is built on conjectures and castles in the air. That’s why we call it “promissory materialism.”

Comments
Dionisio, your #18 Absolutely hilarious! Precisely because it throws a merely matter-of-fact beam of light on atheists' defections, in a positive ocean of surreal madness. By reason of its nature as a vehicle for arguing with atheists, this forum is intensely surreal - indeed, the more scholarly the manner in which atheists are corrected, invariably to no avail, the more surreal the scenario. I'm tempted to say to our lads (and sometimes lasses), 'Well you knew what you were getting into, so it seems a bit odd to see you eventually gong crackers at the enormity of their 'intellectual' contortions, distortions, ravings, etc. However, on a little further reflection, I realise that there is great value in persevering with these crazy controversies, because ultimately they serve a political purpose, serving science and ultimately mankind. Not only that, but, as well as allowing you scientists and philosophers to edify each other, bouncing ideas off each other and so on, we 'common or garden' bloggers are fascinated by what we can learn from your posts. The ones that don't appear to be written in a completely foreign language. So, while trying to avoid 'flipping' and being sectioned, (i.e. placed in an insane asylum), please persevere as long as you feel you safely can. Thank you. That is all (as some of the droller American bloggers like to conclude their posts).Axel
May 14, 2015
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Collin: Scientific disciplines that make design inferences include forensics, archaeology, anthropology, SETI, psychology, cryptography, and others. Each of those fields propose testable hypotheses, something lacking in ID. tjguy: We have no scientific theory that explains the origin and characteristics of biological systems. I don’t think anyone anywhere could reasonably disagree with that if testability is a condition for the theory. Neither ID, creationism, or Materialism(or whatever you want to call it – Scientism maybe?) can provide such a theory. We are dealing with history and history is not repeatable or observable. One doesn't have to repeat history to propose testable hypotheses.Zachriel
May 14, 2015
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Hi Collin,
But from what I’ve heard, I think that Meyer is using “materialism” to refer to the philosophy that matter is all there is.
Well, not even the most hard-core atheist physicalist believes that matter is all there is, because things like quantum fields are thought to be real and to be physical but not to be made of matter.
You do not dispute that matter exists, right? It doesn’t matter (ha) if matter is force fields or tiny hard particles.
If you say that "force fields" are the same thing as "matter", then you are broadening the definition of "matter" and likewise of "materialism". In that case, then "materialism" becomes synonymous with "physicalism", and refers to everything that can be - directly or indirectly - observed and measured.
Meyer’s point is that matter is not all that exists and that intelligence is not merely epiphenomenal nor is information, but foundational.
In that case, Meyer's point is that mind/body dualism is true. This position has been debated for millenia without any semblance of resolution, because there are no observations we can make that will decide the issue.
Scientific disciplines that make design inferences include forensics, archaeology, anthropology, SETI, psychology, cryptography, and others.
Here you have fallen for the same semantic trick again. When you say "design inference", you fail to say what you are actually inferring. Most disciplines you mention do not "detect design" in the abstract, but rather they detect the activity of human beings. SETI has never detected anything, and if it does, SETI will infer that intepretable signals originate from intelligent life forms on other planets in the galaxy. None of these inferences provide any reason to think that human-like intelligence could arise independently of complex physical mechanism, which is exactly what ID is attempting to explain in the first place.
The babies can’t talk. That inference is not unscientific. It’s a perfectly reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.
Yes, "gaze time" experiments make perfectly reasonable scientific inferences, as do countless other experiments in all scientific disciplines.
So too, I argue, is the design inference with life.
Not at all. If the "design inference" is meant to say that a human-like mind (a conscious, sentient mind with the ability to generate and understand natural language, learn new information, solve a variety of different types of problems in different domains, and so on) existed before the advent of complex life, then the inference is without any scientific evidence at all. If the "design inference" does not make these specific claims, then it is unclear what exactly "design" is supposed to entail. Either way, it does not constitute a scientific result supported by empirical evidence. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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Hi tjguy,
Mr. Fish, although I am a creationist, I totally agree with what you say here. We have no scientific theory that explains the origin and characteristics of biological systems. I don’t think anyone anywhere could reasonably disagree with that if testability is a condition for the theory. Neither ID, creationism, or Materialism(or whatever you want to call it – Scientism maybe?) can provide such a theory. We are dealing with history and history is not repeatable or observable.
I'm glad we agree, but for different reasons I'm afraid. Geology is an historical science, but well within our ability to test various hypotheses put forward to explain what we observe in the present. It may be in the future we will develop a successful theory of biological origins that can be evaluated against currently observable evidence. For example, we might discover that immaterial intelligent beings existed prior to life on Earth, or that biological life came to Earth from somewhere else, etc. We simply have no such empirically supported theory at present.
RDF: This statement doesn’t commit to any particular metaphysical position, but simply distinguishes scientific theories that can be tested against our shared experience from non-scientific theories that cannot be empirically tested. TJG: Mr. Fish, you just admitted that there are NO scientific theories that can be tested in this area!
What I said was not that, but rather than no theories of origins have successfully been empirically tested. Neo-Darwinian theory is quite testable, which is why I do not believe it successfully accounts for what we observe in biology! Evolutionary theory has been tested and disconfirmed because (for one thing) there is good reason to think the complex biological mechanisms we observe could not have arisen on Earth in the time available (a few billion years) by means of random mutation and natural selection.
I agree with you that ID cannot be tested either.
ID cannot be tested, period. Again, evolutionary theory has been tested (so it is a scientific theory) and found to be incomplete (so it is not a supported scientific theory of origins).
Creationists have been pointing this problem with evolution and origins science for many years! You seem to have gotten it!
Yes, I've come to the same overall conclusions regarding evolution/OOL as creationists and ID proponents.
Ignore the evolutionary stories (good grief, convergent evolution again).
I agree that convergent evolution is an embarassingly epicycle in a dying theory that lacks any empirical support whatsoever. So yes, I think you and I do agree that Stephen Meyer is mistaken, because we have no theory of the origins of living things that can be scientifically justified. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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Hi Mung,
RDF: Meyer is simply wrong that our experience provides a known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems. MUNG: Darwin’s Doubt is not about the origin of biological systems. It accepts biological systems as a given.
I am rebutting Meyer's claim as quoted in the OP:
In other words, standard materialistic evolutionary theories have failed to identify an adequate mechanism or cause for precisely those attributes of living forms that we know from experience only intelligence – conscious rational activity – is capable of producing. - Meyer
RDF: There is therefore no known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems. That’s your stated position?
Once yet again, then: The only known cause of the sort of complex mechanisms we observe in biological systems are human beings. Since human beings cannot logically be the originating cause of biological systems, Meyer is not referring to a known cause when he hypothesizes that "intelligence" was the originating cause of living things. By referring to "intelligence" in the abstract as the cause he is proposing, Meyer implicitly assumes that "intelligence" can exist independently of complex physical mechanism, which is a hypothesis that lacks scientific support. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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Well, I haven't read Darwin's Doubt. But from what I've heard, I think that Meyer is using "materialism" to refer to the philosophy that matter is all there is. You do not dispute that matter exists, right? It doesn't matter (ha) if matter is force fields or tiny hard particles. Meyer's point is that matter is not all that exists and that intelligence is not merely epiphenomenal nor is information, but foundational. I don't see any problem with making inferences in science. In fact, I challenge you to show me any scientific discipline that does not make many non-scientific a priori assumptions. Scientific disciplines that make design inferences include forensics, archaeology, anthropology, SETI, psychology, cryptography, and others. If you reject ID for making a design inference, then you would probably reject much of psychology because much weaker inferences are made all the time. Here's an example: Psychologists sometimes show babies pictures of faces to see when they understand what people are supposed to look like. Some of the pictures are normal faces and some of them are strange, with the nose on the forehead, for example. At a certain age, the babies stare longer at the strange faces. Psychologists (rightly, I think) infer that babies know there is something wrong with those faces and are curious about them. But they can't ask the babies what they think. The babies can't talk. That inference is not unscientific. It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. So too, I argue, is the design inference with life. It is fact-based and could change with a new set of facts or new discoveries. That's okay.Collin
May 13, 2015
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RD Fish @ 19
So the first step toward clarifying Meyer’s claim is to eliminate references to “materialism”. The proper way to understand his claim, then, is that we have no scientific theory that explains the origin and characteristics of biological systems.
Mr. Fish, although I am a creationist, I totally agree with what you say here. We have no scientific theory that explains the origin and characteristics of biological systems. I don't think anyone anywhere could reasonably disagree with that if testability is a condition for the theory. Neither ID, creationism, or Materialism(or whatever you want to call it - Scientism maybe?) can provide such a theory. We are dealing with history and history is not repeatable or observable.
This statement doesn’t commit to any particular metaphysical position, but simply distinguishes scientific theories that can be tested against our shared experience from non-scientific theories that cannot be empirically tested.
Mr. Fish, you just admitted that there are NO scientific theories that can be tested in this area! So the statement simply lumps all ideas into the "non-scientific" category which isn't very helpful, but it is true. I agree with you that ID cannot be tested either. When it comes to origins and unobservable unrepeatable history, we are really beyond the scope of science. Evolution itself is also beyond the scope of science in many ways. Evolutionists use many claims that cannot be tested. ie - Convergent evolution to explain homologous organs in unrelated species. HGT to explain away inconvenient molecular data that doesn't fit the traditional Darwinian view, etc. BUT, can you test this stuff? NO! I hope you hold your own scientists to the same high standards you want to hold IDers and creationists to. Creationists have been pointing this problem with evolution and origins science for many years! You seem to have gotten it! You make a point about dualism and claim the mind/body distinction is not provable. Of course, interpretation plays a huge role here but I suppose, if you are going strictly on a scientific basis, it is not provable. It seems to be true from our experience, but perhaps we are being deceived. I would think such a claim would need some extraordinary evidence to support, but we cannot prove that is not a possibility. Still, ID fits with our experience much better than Scientism/Materialism/totally natural unguided random Evolution. For me, it makes the best sense out of the data. For instance,I just read this today: https://hms.harvard.edu/news/splitting-hair-cells The mechanics of hearing that the huge number of parts necessary for this to work in addition to the brain to make sense of the electric signals it receives is phenomenal. Darwinists claim the ear evolved. Great! Can they do an experiment to show that such a thing is even possible? No! crev.info says this in reference to the Harvard news release:
In their efforts to understand the causes of hereditary deafness, researchers at HMS have tried to first identify a “parts list” of players. Working with mice, they have identified about 300 genes involved in hearing so far, but they think only one-third of proteins are known.
Science Daily says that eardrums evolved independently in mammals and reptiles/birds; “convergent evolution can often result in structures that resemble each other so much that they appear to be homologous,” the evolutionist says.
Ignore the evolutionary stories (good grief, convergent evolution again). Focus on the main thing: Ears are amazingly intricate organs. Talk about irreducible complexity! Imagine Darwinian luck getting even two proteins to work together, let alone 300 to a thousand. Look at the illustration. As elegant and lovely as it is, it would be useless without an even more complex brain able to receive the electrical impulses and interpret them. Things this complex, with such high performance specifications, do NOT just happen. The design is so over-the-top beautiful and functional, why do we even pay attention to mere humans who make up stories, saying it evolved? Get real; get intelligent design science.
"Things this complex, with such high performance specifications, do NOT just happen." OK, that is not a scientific statement because we cannot prove it. No experiment can show this to be true, but it sure fits the facts better than any other claim. The evolutionist will say "It can happen and did happen." Fine. But that is not a scientific statement either because it cannot be tested.
tjguy
May 13, 2015
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RDFish:
Meyer is simply wrong that our experience provides a known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems.
Darwin's Doubt is not about the origin of biological systems. It accepts biological systems as a given. RDFish:
Meyer is simply wrong that our experience provides a known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems.
There is therefore no known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems. That's your stated position?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Hi Mung,
The topic of Meyer’s book is the Cambrian Explosion.
The topic VJT wrote about in this thread concerns Meyer's "positive case for design", and specifically the passage he quoted from Darwin's Doubt. That is what I addressed.
What is your theory as to how the non-materialistic entities, fields and forces which you mention brought about the Cambrian explosion?
And once yet again I reiterate: For all the reasons I wrote about, materialism is not relevant to scientific discussions regarding theories of the Cambrian explosion or biological systems in general. There is no theory that scientifically explains the origin of biological systems, and this has nothing to do with "materialism" or any other metaphysical speculation. Meyer is simply wrong that our experience provides a known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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RDFish, The topic of Meyer's book is the Cambrian Explosion. What is your theory as to how the non-materialistic entities, fields and forces which you mention brought about the Cambrian explosion?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Hi Collin,
Meyer does not use the word “materialism” in the same way that Heisenberg does. Heisenberg uses it in a technical way, while Meyer uses it to denote a certain kind of metaphysical philosophy. Heisenberg uses it in a physical, not metaphysical, way.
Well, we disagree about that: Heisenberg was speaking of "ontology", which is metaphysical domain that precedes physics. In any event, whether or not Heisenberg was using the word in the same sense as Meyer, these points remain: 1) The term "materialism" is anachronistic and is now rendered ambiguous by modern physics 2) Any explanation that purports to be scientific cannot be based upon untestable assertions regarding mind/body monism or dualism.
But I don’t understand why you don’t think that ID is scientific.
Because it is not based upon what we know from experience as Meyer claims; rather, it is based upon one particular metaphysical belief (mind/body dualism).
It almost seems like you object because it’s not based on materialism!
No, not at all. I myself reject materialism, since it fails to recognize conscious experience. The reason I reject ID as a scientific theory is because we have no empirical way of determining if it is true or not - just like we have no way of telling if other universes exist, for example.
I say that because you object to Meyers’ assumption of dualism.
I don't object to Meyer being a dualist - I object to him pretending that dualism has been confirmed by our experience (any more than monism has been).
If you object to dualism, then do you mean that all that there is, is material? Physical? Please explain.
Again, please re-read my comments regarding the problems with the concept of "material" - modern science has shown that matter does not exist in the way we conceive of it. I myself do not believe there is a yet a solution to the mind/body problem that anyone understands - consciousness and its relation to physical mechanism remains utterly mysterious. Each of us knows that conscious experience exists, but nobody knows how it arises, what the necessary and sufficient conditions for its existence are, or whether or not it is causal in any way. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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RDFish, Meyer does not use the word "materialism" in the same way that Heisenberg does. Heisenberg uses it in a technical way, while Meyer uses it to denote a certain kind of metaphysical philosophy. Heisenberg uses it in a physical, not metaphysical, way. But I don't understand why you don't think that ID is scientific. It almost seems like you object because it's not based on materialism! I say that because you object to Meyers' assumption of dualism. If you object to dualism, then do you mean that all that there is, is material? Physical? Please explain.Collin
May 13, 2015
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RDFish, here's what you wrote:
Meyer’s position is that “standard materialistic evolutionary theories” fail to account for the attributes of living forms that we observe. On one hand, Meyer is correct that we cannot account for the existence and characteristics of biological systems. However, the use of the term “materialistic” is a pernicious red herring.
And since it's such a red herring, you went off chasing it like a hungry cat. If you really think it's red herring, why then did you spend so much of your post writing about it?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Mung, Not all "critics" think the same thing - that is much of the point of my post. Likewise, not all "ID Proponents" think the same thing. Some believe that the universe is 6,000 years old, for example. IDers hate when "critics" conflate young-Earth creationism with ID, yet you do the same thing, pretending that anyone who doesn't agree with you is making the same arguments. I've made an effort to explain my particular position clearly, and I'm hoping that someone here will make an effort to show where my argument fails (or concede that it is correct). Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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Hilarious. One critic argues that it's all material and the next critic argues it's not. Can such an approach possibly lose?Mung
May 13, 2015
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Hi VJTorley, Meyer's position is that "standard materialistic evolutionary theories" fail to account for the attributes of living forms that we observe. On one hand, Meyer is correct that we cannot account for the existence and characteristics of biological systems. However, the use of the term "materialistic" is a pernicious red herring. The term "materialistic" is anachronistic, referring to a view of the physical world as bits of matter in motion that no physicist has believed for more than a hundred years. The notion of a field of influence has been part of our understanding of reality since early in the nineteenth century or even before, subsequently developed into the various classical and modern field theories (gravitational fields, electro-magnetic fields, quantum fields, and so on). Fields are not bits of matter in motion; they are not material in this sense. The reason they are considered part of the physical world is because they can be measured using physical instruments, not because they are composed of matter. And of course even matter itself does not exist as we experience and intuitively understand matter - the fundamental particles of physical theory are not bits of matter that move around in space. As Heisenberg famously said,
The ontology of materialism rested upon the illusion that the kind of existence, the direct 'actuality' of the world around us, can be extrapolated into the atomic range. This extrapolation, however, is impossible... atoms are not things.
Some have attempted to replace the outdated notion of materialism with the term physicalism, which Popper described as the claim that everything real can be (at least theoretically) denied by observation. But other philosophers have different conceptions of the nature of physical reality, and the only common thread is really that physicalism is monistic - it has no separate ontological accounting of conscious mental phenomena. So the first step toward clarifying Meyer's claim is to eliminate references to "materialism". The proper way to understand his claim, then, is that we have no scientific theory that explains the origin and characteristics of biological systems. This statement doesn't commit to any particular metaphysical position, but simply distinguishes scientific theories that can be tested against our shared experience from non-scientific theories that cannot be empirically tested. One can make up various non-scientific theories that account for biological systems. Perhaps there is a huge or an infinite number of different universes so that everything that can happen does happen somewhere. Perhaps there is only our one universe and there exists some sort of tendency intrinsic to nature toward complex dynamic systems of the sorts that we find in living things. Perhaps physical reality is illusory, and there exists only consciousness, in which we only imagine the existence of biological systems and everything else. Perhaps physical reality is a simulation produced by living beings in another dimension. Perhaps physical reality fundamental does exist and was somehow created by an unknown type of conscious being from outside of spacetime. Perhaps biological systems were produced by some unknown sort of thing that exists inside our universe that was not conscious of its actions. Perhaps...... I am not interested in non-scientific theories; anyone can make them up, but if we have no way of determining if they are true, then I see no point (except perhaps to write science fiction stories). Most people feel very strongly about one particular non-scientific theory or another, because people are very uncomfortable admitting that we actually have no idea what caused the universe and living things to exist as they do. So now we reach the crux of Meyer's argument. Meyer claims that he presents a scientific theory of origins - one that can be justified via our shared experience. His argument is this:
we know from experience only intelligence – conscious rational activity – is capable of producing [attributes of living forms] - Meyer
But this is just the old semantic trick that misleads so many people into thinking that ID is actually a scientific theory. What we know from experience is not at all what Meyer claims of course: What we know from experience is that such attributes are produced by complex living organisms called "human beings", with the ability to sense the world using various sense modalities, physically interact with the world using our hands and bodies, form intentions and generate action plans using our complex brains, and also experience conscious awareness in a way that remains utterly mysterious. The semantic trick that Meyer uses - and ID proponents fall for - is to pretend that what we know from experience is something entirely different. Instead of saying what we actually know, he says we know that "conscious rational activity" is itself something that exists independently of human brains and bodies, and thus could be responsible for the origin of biological systems and even the physical world itself. Now, it could be true that this is the case: Mind/body dualists believe that consciousness is an irreducible, causal thing that exists in the world, and could thus conceivably exist independently of a complex living organism. But Meyer does not provide any evidence that this is the case, nor does he ever even acknowledge the need to provide such evidence. When faced with my arguments, ID proponents typically begin providing what they consider evidence for minds existing independently of bodies: ESP, near-death experiences, metaphysical arguments about how thought is "immaterial", and so on. These debates drag on without resolution, just as they have for thousands of years! - because there is no way presently to empirically test the claims of dualism. But whether or not one believes in dualism, what is clear is that Meyer's argument rests solidly on the belief that dualism must be true, and that his claim that our experience reveals a known cause that could have been responsible for the origin of living things is specious. ID rests squarely on the metaphysical claim of dualism, and is merely dressed up as a scientific theory. In summary, materialism is a red herring - it's time ID folks realize that their belief that defeating "materialism" somehow makes ID into a scientific theory is terminally confused. If you'd like to pick some particular non-scientific theory and claim that it is the "best available explanation", that's just fine, but it doesn't somehow mean that there is any scientific justification for it. That goes for fans of multiverses, of supernatural gods, of self-organization, of idealist monism, or any other speculation of how life came to exist. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 13, 2015
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#3
[...]I have decided I will no longer post here. You may have noticed that quite a lot of other regular ID sceptics have made the same decision.
Apparently a few are still here. It wouldn't hurt if they too would make the same decision. Less time squandered on senseless arguments. :)Dionisio
May 13, 2015
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BFast. "In the context of this discussion, you seem to assume that the only entity qualified to bequeath “authority” is the university." For clarity, my comment was not a denial of Dr. Meyer's credentials and the piece you reference is contained in the treatment for the informal logical fallacy, Appeal to Authority, from the provided link. Darwin's Doubt is an excellent work of scientific investigation which would be a benefit for every or any paleontologist on how to approach difficult questions. I do not "seem to assume" ... Anyone can make such an apparent error in review of these short comments. Kairofocus. I appreciate your responsive thoughts to my post. Kaz. My thoughts in response ... Compelling arguments and coherent statements are an excellent combination for making scientific propositions. To compel is to drive, to beat, to force ... to drive a point(s) to a logical or reasonable position or conclusion. To cohere is to stick, to prick, to urge on ... to press, to push, to entreat one with the veracity or reasonableness of a position or conclusion. And what is compelling and coherent must, for scientific inquiry, be supported by empirical (experiential), experimental (testable), rational (mathematical), and verifiable (predictable) criteria, with 'must' as a science practitioner's commitment to integrity and methodology. While the criteria are not inviolable absolutes in human experiencing, the criteria are necessary 'markers' for practicing scientific methodologies with integrity. Without markers how do we find our way? Grope in the dark?redwave
May 13, 2015
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You may have noticed that quite a lot of other regular ID sceptics trolls have made the same decision. I suppose that could explain the recent increase in Guano at TSZ.Mung
May 13, 2015
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redwave (5), "However, the informal fallacy occurs only when the authority cited either (a) is not an authority, or (b) is not an authority on the subject on which he is being cited." In the context of this discussion, you seem to assume that the only entity qualified to bequeath "authority" is the university. The fact that a person wrote a scholarly book on a matter should reasonably qualify him as an authority. I would dare say that Dr. Meyers is far more an authority on the Cambrian explosion than is the one with a Ph.D. in paleontology who did their doctoral thesis on the evolution of mammals from lizards.bFast
May 13, 2015
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Z, and in exactly what way is a PhD in phil of sci on origins of life and thereafter author of sustained best selling works on linked origins issues comprising a critical, prolonged survey of the literature thereby dismissible on rhetoric that frankly smacks of closed shop union tactics? Especially where the problem of origin of species and body plans beyond is indeed still a major one and notoriously the train of increasingly divergent fossil forms and/or the demonstration per observation of the body-plan forming power of CV + culling on differential reproduction --> descent with mods --> incrementally branching tree evo --> ToL relevant to the Cambrian fossils are still very open challenges? KFkairosfocus
May 13, 2015
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Eventually Zac. But thanks for the info.Axel
May 13, 2015
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I think it would be fair to say that Darwin had a 'flogiston moment'. As the N. Irish game-show host used to say: 'Good answer! But not the right one...'Axel
May 13, 2015
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Axel: Unless it’s Einstein Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zürich under Alfred Kleiner.Zachriel
May 13, 2015
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In case it is of interest I will be reading UD and may from time to time comment on TSZ. I expect some people will describe this as running away. As far as I am concerned it was not a fight in the first place, so running away does not really come into it. It has however become a frustrating, time-wasting and unpleasant experience. Many thanks to those of you who have contributed to interesting and polite debate over the years – particularly yourself and Gpuccio. I have learned a lot.
It's sad to see you go, Mark. You've been here for several years and have participated quite a lot in the discussions. With that said, I think back to some recent exchanges with you on the question of moral issues and it seemed to me that you really had nothing to say. You locked into one position and simply ignored the counter-argument which exposed some glaring weaknesses. It seemed you were expressing a faith-assertion about materialism and you either didn't want to, or were pretending not to, see the huge problem with the materialist viewpoint on that issue. Anyway, I had the feeling back then that you weren't getting much out of the discussion at that point. None of the IDists here are going to be challenged by mere assertions ... and it was clear that you decided not to budge at all in your view. It's one of those things ... I'm guessing you have some personal reasons to give that kind of blind assent to atheism but that's the way it often is as I see it. So, I wish you would reconsider and join the discussion again -- but I'd also understand if you think that you've just played it out as far as you can. Your recent comment, something like "why bother, we've been through this before" expressed an attitude of closing-off the arguments that people offer here. If it's not a fight, as you say, then why not try to get a more sympathetic understanding of what people are saying? It didn't make sense to present a hard-core materialist view with no wiggle room, and at the same time also look for a good discussion. With that, good luck wherever you go -- and please feel free to change your mind and rejoin the discussion in the future.Silver Asiatic
May 13, 2015
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“However, the informal fallacy occurs only when the authority cited either (a) is not an authority, or (b) is not an authority on the subject on which he is being cited. If someone either isn’t an authority at all, or isn’t an authority on the subject about which they’re speaking, then that undermines the value of their testimony.” Unless it's Einstein, Redwave. Surreal that he pointed to a draw in his desk at the patent office he worked at, and said that that was his research laboratory. And looking out of the window there, first imagined a man sliding down a light-beam, or some other 'naive' image, which led to a seminal insight.Axel
May 13, 2015
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Kaz, Your #4 I’m ever fascinated by the constant quibbles over what the evidence really suggests, as though that had anything to do with the rise of Darwinism, which is sustained, not by the evidence, but by the pre-commitment to material causes. The very heart of the matter, Sean. First principles are often devastating, as here. Problem is, this forum would die of inanition, if our experts didn't pretend to take them at least half-seriously.Axel
May 13, 2015
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RW: Long ago now, I hit on the pathos, ethos logos trichotomy of levers of persuasion. I was pointed to Aristotle in The Rhetoric Bk I Ch 2. The takeaway, is first our emotions are highly persuasive but are no better than the underlying perceptions and evaluations (which are too often warped by the intensity of our feelings). Next, no authority -- expert, dictionary, teacher, spokesman/presenter, parent, witness etc -- is better than his facts, logic and underlying assumptions. Never mind, 99% of practical arguments crucially depend on authorities. Thus, before we trust we should audit and verify credibility. And on controversial matters we should be aware of pro's and cons, bias concerns, etc. So, it is to the facts and logic in the context of worldviews foundations that we must go. When it comes to OOL and OOBP issues, paleontologists are not -- RPT, NOT -- the only relevant experts. Especially, in a context where school of thought worldview foundations and ideological commitments are notoriously in the stakes. KFkairosfocus
May 13, 2015
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@Redwave, That's why I typically reference authorities only insofar as their arguments are compelling, and/or their statements cohere with known historical data. Arguing that something is true "because so-and-so said so" is really weak, esp. since so many authoritative so-and-so's make faulty arguments all the time, as human beings who put their pants on one leg at a time and have presuppositions that govern what they're willing to accept, just like the rest of us. When someone argues that Darwinism is true by the consensus of most scientists, I'm moved to yawn and take a nap, but that's about it. ~SeanKaz
May 13, 2015
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Kairofocus. You most likely know the contents of my post, so I apologize and have no intention of instructing you. I do not take issue against your observations, rather intending to expand your PS comment. The insistence that scientific specialization summarily qualifies or disqualifies a person from adding value and insight to an argument is a weak position and is not supportable for scientific propositions. The exception can only be sustained in a legal case in which expert testimony is governed by law. Informal Logical Fallacies. http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/ Appeal to Authority "An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true. "Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true. "However, the informal fallacy occurs only when the authority cited either (a) is not an authority, or (b) is not an authority on the subject on which he is being cited. If someone either isn’t an authority at all, or isn’t an authority on the subject about which they’re speaking, then that undermines the value of their testimony."redwave
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