Intelligent Design Mind Naturalism

Two reasons why humans have souls are proposed

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Came across this piece arguing for the existence of the soul:

As I said in my first post, experiences are experienced by a subject, and learning the non-physical nature of our experiences does not immediately tell us the nature of the selves which have these experiences. It is compatible with what I have argued so far that we are material objects (our brains, say, or our bodies) which also happen to possess a special set of non-physical properties. As I mentioned before, this form of mere property dualism would be enough to get the argument from consciousness for theism off the ground (for reasons we’ll see later). However, I am going to argue in the next two posts that I am in fact a non-physical soul (or, if one prefers, am composed of a non-physical soul and a physical body–though it will become clear in the next post why I don’t like this formulation). So are you, and so are the other conscious animals.

Dustin Crummett, “Do Humans HaveSouls: Yes, for Two Reasons” at Capturing Christianity

Maybe wondering about whether we have a soul is a bit like wondering whether we should act more mature in difficult situations. If you are asking the question at all, you are answering it in the affirmative, by definition. If you were not capable of behaving in a more mature way, you would not be asking.

See also: What is the difference between “soul” and “spirit”?

17 Replies to “Two reasons why humans have souls are proposed

  1. 1
    FourFaces says:

    It’s easy to prove that we have a soul. Consider distance. It is not a physical property of the universe and yet we experience it. Einstein never believed in nor understood nonlocality (nonspatiality), a fundamental truth of the universe. He opposed the idea to his death. This is why he never accepted (as did Newton) that gravity acted at a distance, that is, non-locally. Instead, he insisted that it travels at the speed of light. But the accuracy of Newtonian physics cannot be denied. Einstein and relativists were forced to conjure up a complex pseudoscientific mechanism to get general relativity to behave as if gravity acted instantly at a distance. So now we have an entire field called gravitational waves based on a lie or, at least, a misunderstanding.

    Of course, the multi-billion dollar LIGO gravitational waves detection project is a total scam paid for with your money. The devil cannot have you knowing that distance is an illusion, a creation of the mind. Otherwise, you would know that you have a soul in addition to a brain. The only reason that Einstein is regarded as a brilliant physicist is that he was a Jew. His larger than life presence in physics and the public mind is maintained by secular Jewish (globalist) propaganda. Satan is the father of lies.

    We have a soul. Therefore LIGO is a scam. 😀

  2. 2
    PaV says:

    My personal thoughts concerning the ‘soul’ is that when it comes to human beings, persons, we need to make distinctions we wouldn’t otherwise make. St. Thomas Aquinas defined humans as ‘rational’ animals. In our day and age, the whole notion of ‘personhood’ stands in the forefront and has to some extent displaced this Thomistic view. We are not simply souls that have the capacity for rational thought. Animals, too, have souls–that power which animates their being. There is some connection here with the physical world, a conjunction of matter and spirit, if you will.

    But these souls, even the soul of a human being, simply define what we are. I have two arms and two legs, as well as two eyes and two ears. A goat can ‘see’ just as well as I do, perhaps better, and it is the goat’s brain that processes the signals produced by light entering their eyes. We hold all of these properties in common with other animals.

    But man is unique. And what makes us unique among the animals is that we are “persons.” We have reason and free will–we are not guided strictly by instincts. So, we can choose; and, in choosing we define ourselves: we are a leader, or a follower; we are law abiding, or a criminal; we are trustworthy, or fickle, etc.

    But, whereas our ‘soul’ is almost completely grounded in our material world, we, as ‘persons,’ are completely ‘immaterial.’ We are persons because “we know that we know.” We are “conscious.” We are “aware” that we are “aware.” This is still grounded in our material nature, but to a much smaller degree than our ‘soul.’

    My uncle told me how he left his body as a young man and went around the world. Then he couldn’t get back into his body. He managed somehow to enter his body once more, but was so frightened that he never tried doing that again. He had been using techniques that came from Eastern Religions.

    Out of body experiences: how can this be explained unless there is a way in which we exist separate from the body. Death, of course, is this separation. We normally say that the body and soul have separated. But the soul, connected to the material in an intimate way, nonetheless is of a spiritual origin, and, thus, being ordered towards the spiritual (the immaterial), it adheres not to the ‘body’ but to the ‘person.’ We turn to ashes.

    So, what I’m suggesting is that we make a distinction between the animal soul and the soul of a human person. The first chapter of Genesis speaks of the first, while the second chapter speaks of the latter. In the first, God makes them “male and female”–just like all the other animals; and He says, “Be fertile and mulitply,” just as He said to all of the other animals.

    But in the second Creation account, God ‘personally’ fashions “man” from the mud, and then “breathes life (pneuma) into this form.” And the man so made has a ‘name’: he is Adam. And when another was taken from his side, she, too, had a ‘name’: Eve.

    God is subtle in how and what He reveals. We do well to pick up on this subtlety.

  3. 3
    FourFaces says:

    PaV,

    Sorry. Animals have no souls. They’re just unconscious meat robots regardless of how much we wish to anthropomorphize them. Future intelligent robots will behave so intelligently that many will swear they have a soul and will demand that they be treated humanely.

  4. 4
    FourFaces says:

    PaV,

    My uncle told me how he left his body as a young man and went around the world. Then he couldn’t get back into his body. He managed somehow to enter his body once more, but was so frightened that he never tried doing that again. He had been using techniques that came from Eastern Religions.

    Are you saying that the soul has eyes to see the world? If so, why would your uncle want to go back to his body? If I could exist separately from my body and be functional enough to travel, I would never want to go back to a corruptible form. Your uncle was pulling your leg in my opinion.

    The soul needs a body to experience life because life is in the body. An intelligence is in the brain. When we are resurrected, we will be given a new incorruptible body with a brand new brain. There’s a reason for this.

  5. 5
    jawa says:

    FourFaces,

    You have presented a very reasonable argument.

    I believe our minds use our brains to operate in this world. Perhaps some elaborate interface that we can’t understand makes possible the communication between the two. Information flows both ways through the interface. When the brain or the body have physical problems, the two-way communication mind-brain may break, resulting in different types of mental or physical disabilities.

  6. 6
    bornagain77 says:

    To be honest, I found the way in which Dr. Crummett presented the philosophical arguments, i.e. the modal and replacement arguments for the soul, to be a bit ‘stressed’.

    And while I think that Dr. Crummett’s philosophical arguments work. regardless of them being unduly ‘stressed’, I also hold that the ID advocate has a much better argument for the existence of the soul than the philosophers apparently have. An argument that relies on scientific evidence instead of just relying on the self evident truths that philosophers are primarily dependent upon.

    In making the scientific argument for the existence of the soul, it is first important to point out exactly what the reductive materialistic foundation of Darwinian evolution cannot possibly explain.

    In short, reductive materialism cannot possibly explain why the universe, or any object within the universe, (i.e. any macroscopic object which is composed of numerous individual material particles), should be considered as a single unified ‘whole’. i.e. should be considered as a single unified entity.

    As Pastor Joe Boot explains at the 13:20 minute mark of the following video,

    “If you have no God, then you have no design plan for the universe. You have no preexisting structure to the universe.,, As the ancient Greeks held, like Democritus and others, the universe is flux. It’s just matter in motion. Now on that basis all you are confronted with is innumerable brute facts that are unrelated pieces of data. They have no meaningful connection to each other because there is no overall structure. There’s no design plan. It’s like my kids do ‘join the dots’ puzzles. It’s just dots, but when you join the dots there is a structure, and a picture emerges. Well, the atheists is without that (final picture). There is no preestablished pattern (to connect the facts given atheism).”
    Pastor Joe Boot – Defending the Christian Faith – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqE5_ZOAnKo

    This self evident philosophical truth has now been proven to be physically true by the fairly recent extension of Gödel’s incompleteness theorem into quantum physics,

    In the following article entitled ‘Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics’, which studied the derivation of macroscopic properties from a complete microscopic description, the researchers remark that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, The researchers further commented that their findings challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.”

    Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics – December 9, 2015
    Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,,
    It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,,
    “We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s,” added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. “So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.”
    http://phys.org/news/2015-12-q.....godel.html

    When we throw thermodynamics into the mix, the problem of why any organism should remain as a single unified whole during their lifetime, instead of dissolving into a multitude of fragments, becomes that much more acute for the Darwinian materialist.

    As Stephen Talbott explains in the following article, “,,,the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?
    Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity.”

    The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott – 2010
    Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary.
    ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?
    Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity.
    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/.....-of-beings

    Darwinian Materialists are simply at a complete loss to explain how the trillions of cells of a human body can possibly cohere together as a single unified whole for “precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer.”

    As molecular biologist Doug Axe explains, “We have no idea how a single cell produces an adult.”

    “The mere fact that a firefly comes from a single cell that then develops into a firefly puts it in a completely different league [from an iPhone]. That doesn’t happen with smartphones. Factories make smartphones. Fireflies come from fireflies and come from an initial fertilized cell. It’s absolutely mind-boggling. We have no idea how a single cell produces an adult. These things are marvelous.”
    – Doug Axe – The Problem with Theistic Evolution – video – 1:00 minute mark
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndRBUyW6EbM

    And as Dr. Alexander Tsiaras states at the 7:25 minute mark of the following video, “The magic of the mechanisms inside each genetic structure saying exactly where that nerve cell should go, the complexity of these, the mathematical models on how these things are indeed done, are beyond human comprehension. Even though I am a mathematician, I look at this with the marvel of how do these instruction sets not make these mistakes as they build what is us. It’s a mystery, it’s magic, it’s divinity.”

    “It’s a Mystery, It’s Magic, It’s Divinity” – Casey Luskin – March 22, 2012
    Excerpt: “The magic of the mechanisms inside each genetic structure saying exactly where that nerve cell should go, the complexity of these, the mathematical models on how these things are indeed done, are beyond human comprehension. Even though I am a mathematician, I look at this with the marvel of how do these instruction sets not make these mistakes as they build what is us. It’s a mystery, it’s magic, it’s divinity.”
    – Alexander Tsiaras: Conception to birth — visualized – video – 7:25 minute mark
    https://youtu.be/fKyljukBE70?t=443

    Shoot, Darwinists don’t even have a clue how all the parts of just a single cell might come together to form single unified whole, much less can they explain how the trillions of biological cells in a human body can possibly cohere together as a single unified whole.

    The Humpty-Dumpty Effect: A Revolutionary Paper with Far-Reaching Implications – Paul Nelson – October 23, 2012
    Excerpt: Tompa and Rose calculate the “total number of possible distinct patterns of interactions,” using yeast, a unicellular eukaryote, as their model system; this “total number” is the size of the space that must be searched. With approximately 4,500 proteins in yeast, the interactome search space “is on the order of 10^7200, an unimaginably large number,” they write — but “more realistic” estimates, they continue, are “yet more complicated.” Proteins present many possible surfaces for chemical interaction. “In all,” argue Tompa and Rose, “an average protein would have approximately 3540 distinguishable interfaces,” and if one uses this number for the interactome space calculation, the result is 10 followed by the exponent 7.9 x 10^10.,,, the numbers preclude formation of a functional interactome (of ‘simple’ life) by trial and error,, within any meaningful span of time. This numerical exercise…is tantamount to a proof that the cell does not organize by random collisions of its interacting constituents. (i.e. that life did not arise, nor operate, by chance!)
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....65521.html

    As James Tour puts the situation,

    “We have no idea how to put this structure (a simple cell) together.,, So, not only do we not know how to make the basic components, we do not know how to build the structure even if we were given the basic components. So the gedanken (thought) experiment is this. Even if I gave you all the components. Even if I gave you all the amino acids. All the protein structures from those amino acids that you wanted. All the lipids in the purity that you wanted. The DNA. The RNA. Even in the sequence you wanted. I’ve even given you the code. And all the nucleic acids. So now I say, “Can you now assemble a cell, not in a prebiotic cesspool but in your nice laboratory?”. And the answer is a resounding NO! And if anybody claims otherwise they do not know this area (of research).”
    – James Tour: The Origin of Life Has Not Been Explained – 4:20 minute mark (The more we know, the worse the problem gets for materialists)
    https://youtu.be/r4sP1E1Jd_Y?t=255

    What Dr. Tour is alluding to in that preceding comment is the fact that having the correct sequential information encoded in DNA is not nearly enough in order to explain life. Besides the sequential information in DNA there is also a vast amount of ‘positional information’, (positional information that is telling the molecules of the cell exactly where to be), that must also be accounted for as well.

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    And, when working from the thermodynamic perspective, the amount of positional information that is found to be in a simple one cell bacterium is immense. On the order 10 to the 12 bits,,, which is several orders of magnitude more information than the amount of sequential information that is encoded on the DNA of a ‘simple’ bacterium.

    Biophysics – Information theory. Relation between information and entropy: – Setlow-Pollard, Ed. Addison Wesley
    Excerpt: Linschitz gave the figure 9.3 x 10^12 cal/deg or 9.3 x 10^12 x 4.2 joules/deg for the entropy of a bacterial cell. Using the relation H = S/(k In 2), we find that the information content is 4 x 10^12 bits. Morowitz’ deduction from the work of Bayne-Jones and Rhees gives the lower value of 5.6 x 10^11 bits, which is still in the neighborhood of 10^12 bits. Thus two quite different approaches give rather concordant figures.
    http://www.astroscu.unam.mx/~a.....ecular.htm

    ,,, Which is the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. ‘In comparison,,, the largest libraries in the world,, have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.”

    “a one-celled bacterium, e. coli, is estimated to contain the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Expressed in information in science jargon, this would be the same as 10^12 bits of information. In comparison, the total writings from classical Greek Civilization is only 10^9 bits, and the largest libraries in the world – The British Museum, Oxford Bodleian Library, New York Public Library, Harvard Widenier Library, and the Moscow Lenin Library – have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.”
    – R. C. Wysong – The Creation-evolution Controversy

    ‘The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica.”
    Carl Sagan, “Life” in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894

    And the positional information that must be accounted for in order to give us an adequate casual account for how a single cell can possibly turn into the trillions of cells in a multi-cellular organism is orders of magnitude greater than that.

    Since Bacterial cells are about 10 times smaller than most plant and animal cells.

    Size Comparisons of Bacteria, Amoeba, Animal & Plant Cells
    Excerpt: Bacterial cells are very small – about 10 times smaller than most plant and animal cells.
    https://education.seattlepi.com/size-comparisons-bacteria-amoeba-animal-plant-cells-4966.html

    And since there are conservatively estimated to be around 30 trillion cells within the average human body,

    Revised Estimates for the Number of Human and Bacteria Cells in the Body – 2016
    Abstract: Reported values in the literature on the number of cells in the body differ by orders of magnitude and are very seldom supported by any measurements or calculations. Here, we integrate the most up-to-date information on the number of human and bacterial cells in the body. We estimate the total number of bacteria in the 70 kg “reference man” to be 3.8·10^13. For human cells, we identify the dominant role of the hematopoietic lineage to the total count (?90%) and revise past estimates to 3.0·10^13 human cells. Our analysis also updates the widely-cited 10:1 ratio, showing that the number of bacteria in the body is actually of the same order as the number of human cells, and their total mass is about 0.2 kg.
    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002533

    Then that gives us a rough ballpark estimate of around 300 trillion times 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Or about 300 trillion times the information content contained within the books of all the largest libraries in the world. Needless to say, that is a massive amount of positional information that is somehow coming into a developing embryo.

    And indeed, due to advances in science, we now know that an immense amount of ‘positional information’ and/or ‘quantum information’ must be coming into the developing embryo ‘from the outside’ by some ‘non-material’ method.

    At about the 41:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Wells, using a branch of mathematics called category theory, demonstrates that, during embryological development, information must somehow be added to the developing embryo, ‘from the outside’, by some ‘non-material’ method.

    Design Beyond DNA: A Conversation with Dr. Jonathan Wells – video (41:00 minute mark) – January 2017
    https://youtu.be/ASAaANVBoiE?t=2484

    As mentioned previously, the amount of ‘positional information’ that is somehow coming into a developing embryo from the outside by some non-material method is immense. Vastly outstripping, by many orders of magnitude, the amount of sequential information that is contained within DNA itself. As Doug Axe states in the following video, “there are a quadrillion neural connections in the human brain, that’s vastly more neural connections in the human brain than there are bits (of information) in the human genome. So,,, there’s got to be something else going on that makes us what we are.”

    “There is also a presumption, typically when we talk about our genome, (that the genome) is a blueprint for making us. And that is actually not a proven fact in biology. That is an assumption. And (one) that I question because I don’t think that 4 billion bases, which would be 8 billion bits of information, that you would actually have enough information to specify a human being. If you consider for example that there are a quadrillion neural connections in the human brain, that’s vastly more neural connections in the human brain than there are bits (of information) in the human genome. So,,, there’s got to be something else going on that makes us what we are.”
    Doug Axe – Intelligent Design 3.0 – Stephen C. Meyer – video (1 hour 16 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvwBaD8-00w&t=4575s

    And as the following article states, the information to build a human infant, atom by atom, would take up the equivalent of enough thumb drives to fill the Titanic, multiplied by 2,000.

    In a TED Talk, (the Question You May Not Ask,,, Where did the information come from?) – November 29, 2017
    Excerpt: Sabatini is charming.,,, he deploys some memorable images. He points out that the information to build a human infant, atom by atom, would take up the equivalent of enough thumb drives to fill the Titanic, multiplied by 2,000. Later he wheels out the entire genome, in printed form, of a human being,,,,:
    [F]or the first time in history, this is the genome of a specific human, printed page-by-page, letter-by-letter: 262,000 pages of information, 450 kilograms.,,,
    https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/in-a-ted-talk-heres-the-question-you-may-not-ask/

    And in regards to this vast amount of positional information that must be accounted for in order to give as an adequate causal account for the Origin of life, and for the embryological development of multicellular organisms, it is now found, due to advances in quantum information theory, that a “Intelligent Observer” is necessary in order to give us an adequate causal account for why life is so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium.

    Specifically, in the following 2010 experimental realization of Maxwell’s demon thought experiment, it was demonstrated that knowledge of a particle’s location and/or position converts information into energy.

    Maxwell’s demon demonstration turns information into energy – November 2010
    Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....nergy.html

    And as the following 2010 article stated about the preceding experiment, “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,”

    Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010
    Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski.
    http://www.scientificamerican......rts-inform

  8. 8
    PaV says:

    Four Faces: You don’t seem to know a lot about science or even philosophy. Maybe you should go somewhere else to blog. This statement of yours: “The only reason that Einstein is regarded as a brilliant physicist is that he was a Jew. His larger than life presence in physics and the public mind is maintained by secular Jewish (globalist) propaganda,” reeks of anti-Semitism. Your misunderstanding of the superiority of GR to SR betrays a very limited understanding of physics.

    I recommend going somewhere else and blogging. If this were my blogpost, I’d have banned you from the site.

    To ask “why” my uncle wanted to get back into his body is an absurd question. He told me that is what he wanted to do. It is silly to question that. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience? Maybe, then, you would understand why my uncle wanted back into his body.

    You say, “The soul needs a body to experience life because life is in the body. ” Another absurd statement. That my uncle traveled around the world–and basically left a dead body behind, completely dismantles your very strange assertion. Again, please go somewhere else.

    News: please ban this madman.

  9. 9
    bornagain77 says:

    continued from post 7,

    And as the following 2017 article states: James Clerk Maxwell (said), “The idea of dissipation of energy depends on the extent of our knowledge.”,,,
    quantum information theory,,, describes the spread of information through quantum systems.,,,
    Fifteen years ago, “we thought of entropy as a property of a thermodynamic system,” he said. “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”,,,

    The Quantum Thermodynamics Revolution – May 2017
    Excerpt: the 19th-century physicist James Clerk Maxwell put it, “The idea of dissipation of energy depends on the extent of our knowledge.”
    In recent years, a revolutionary understanding of thermodynamics has emerged that explains this subjectivity using quantum information theory — “a toddler among physical theories,” as del Rio and co-authors put it, that describes the spread of information through quantum systems. Just as thermodynamics initially grew out of trying to improve steam engines, today’s thermodynamicists are mulling over the workings of quantum machines. Shrinking technology — a single-ion engine and three-atom fridge were both experimentally realized for the first time within the past year — is forcing them to extend thermodynamics to the quantum realm, where notions like temperature and work lose their usual meanings, and the classical laws don’t necessarily apply.
    They’ve found new, quantum versions of the laws that scale up to the originals. Rewriting the theory from the bottom up has led experts to recast its basic concepts in terms of its subjective nature, and to unravel the deep and often surprising relationship between energy and information — the abstract 1s and 0s by which physical states are distinguished and knowledge is measured.,,,
    Renato Renner, a professor at ETH Zurich in Switzerland, described this as a radical shift in perspective. Fifteen years ago, “we thought of entropy as a property of a thermodynamic system,” he said. “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”,,,
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-thermodynamics-revolution/

    Again to repeat that last sentence, “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”

    On top of that, ‘classical’ sequential information is found to be a subset of quantum ‘positional’ information by the following method:
    Specifically, in the following 2011 paper, researchers ,,, show that when the bits (in a computer) to be deleted are quantum-mechanically entangled with the state of an observer, then the observer could even withdraw heat from the system while deleting the bits. Entanglement links the observer’s state to that of the computer in such a way that they know more about the memory than is possible in classical physics.,,, In measuring entropy, one should bear in mind that (in quantum information theory) an object does not have a certain amount of entropy per se, instead an object’s entropy is always dependent on the observer.

    Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 1, 2011
    Excerpt: Recent research by a team of physicists,,, describe,,, how the deletion of data, under certain conditions, can create a cooling effect instead of generating heat. The cooling effect appears when the strange quantum phenomenon of entanglement is invoked.,,,
    The new study revisits Landauer’s principle for cases when the values of the bits to be deleted may be known. When the memory content is known, it should be possible to delete the bits in such a manner that it is theoretically possible to re-create them. It has previously been shown that such reversible deletion would generate no heat. In the new paper, the researchers go a step further. They show that when the bits to be deleted are quantum-mechanically entangled with the state of an observer, then the observer could even withdraw heat from the system while deleting the bits. Entanglement links the observer’s state to that of the computer in such a way that they know more about the memory than is possible in classical physics.,,,
    In measuring entropy, one should bear in mind that an object does not have a certain amount of entropy per se, instead an object’s entropy is always dependent on the observer. Applied to the example of deleting data, this means that if two individuals delete data in a memory and one has more knowledge of this data, she perceives the memory to have lower entropy and can then delete the memory using less energy.,,,
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....134300.htm

    Again to repeat, “In measuring entropy, one should bear in mind that an object does not have a certain amount of entropy per se, instead an object’s entropy is always dependent on the observer.”

    To say that “entropy is always dependent on the observer” is simply devastating to the entire reductive materialistic foundation of Darwinian evolution.

    That the classical sequential in DNA is a subset of quantum ‘positional’ information,,,

    Classical sequential is a subset of quantum ‘positional’ information, – pictorial representation
    https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2000/nsf00101/images/figure1.gif

    That the classical sequential is a subset of quantum ‘positional’ information, has now been scientifically established by advances in quantum biology.
    As Dr Rieper explains at the 24:00 minute mark of the following video., “practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it.”

    “What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.”
    Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it)
    https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176

    The interesting thing about the quantum ‘positional’ information that is now found to be ubiquitous throughout life,,,,

    Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules – Mar. 6, 2015
    Excerpt: “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” they say.
    That’s a discovery that is as important as it is unexpected. “These findings suggest an entirely new and universal mechanism of conductance in biology very different from the one used in electrical circuits.”
    The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,
    “what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?”
    https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life-and-the-hidden-role-of-quantum-criticality-ca4707924552

    The interesting thing about the quantum ‘positional’ information that is now found to be ubiquitous throughout life is that quantum information. (and/or positional information), requires a non-local, beyond space and time, cause in order to explain its existence: As the following article states, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”

    Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – October 28, 2012
    Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland, and member of the team.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm

    Darwinian materialists, since they hold, via their reductive materialism, that space-time, matter-energy, is all that exists, simply have no beyond space and time cause to appeal to in order to explain this quantum information. Whereas Christian Theists, or course, do have a beyond space-time. matter-energy, cause that they can appeal to:

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Another important point to make clear about quantum information, is that quantum information, unlike classical sequential information, is ‘conserved’.

    As the following article states, ‘In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.’

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – 2011
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....tally.html

    The implication of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’, quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious.
    That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have direct physical evidence strongly indicating that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies.
    As Stuart Hameroff notes in this following video, “the quantum information,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”

    Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe – Oct. 19, 2017 – Spiritual
    Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
    – Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark)
    – per disclosetv

    Verses:

    Mark 8:37
    Is anything worth more than your soul?

    Psalm 139: 13-16
    For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
    My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
    Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book

    Supplemental note:

    May 2020 – (unlike all the various multiverse scenarios for which atheists have no physical evidence, the Christian can appeal to the scientific evidence from Special Relativity), (which is currently one of our most powerful theories in science), to strongly support the physical reality of a timeless eternity and of a heavenly dimension that exists above this temporal dimension.
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-egnor-neuroscientists-cant-dismiss-near-death-experiences/#comment-702863

    Matthew 6:33
    But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

  10. 10
    FourFaces says:

    PaV:

    News: please ban this madman.

    LOL. I think there’s a fascist globalist among us. This is a low traffic site and I’m a nobody. Banning me is irrelevant.

  11. 11
    FourFaces says:

    PaV:

    To ask “why” my uncle wanted to get back into his body is an absurd question. He told me that is what he wanted to do. It is silly to question that. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience? Maybe, then, you would understand why my uncle wanted back into his body.

    My BS detector just won’t stop ringing. Both you and your uncle are madmen. Both of you should be banned. 😀

  12. 12
    PaV says:

    Four Faces:

    If your BS detector is ringing, maybe it’s because of something you’ve recently written. Go troll somewhere else. This low traffic site will not suffer if you do so.

  13. 13

    The soul is more or less the agency of all decisions throughout life, as a whole. Basically that means all emotions throughout life.

    The soul chooses, and then the soul is judged by God. It would make no sense for God to judge the soul, if the soul did not choose.

    Creationist conceptual scheme:
    1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / identity of which is a matter of chosen opinion
    2. Creation / chosen / material / existence of which is a matter fact forced by evidence

    Because the term “soul” is defined in terms of making choices, it therefore belongs in category 1 of the creationist conceptual scheme. Therefore there cannot be any facts whatsoever about the soul, it is just a matter of chosen opinion (judgement).

  14. 14
    SmartAZ says:

    WTF??? It blows me away to see a discussion of soul when nobody knows the definition.

    Soul is a Hebrew synonym for a living breathing creature. When the creature stops breathing, the soul is dead. Anybody who uses the word in any other context either doesn’t know what they are talking about, or is trying to sell something you don’t need. Except musicians. Musicians are cool, and they know exactly what they mean by “soul”.

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    soul – noun
    1. the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
    2. emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance.

    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
    SOUL
    sol (nephesh; psuche; Latin anima):

    1. Shades of Meaning in the Old Testament:

    (1) Soul, like spirit, has various shades of meaning in the Old Testament, which may be summarized as follows: “Soul,” “living being,” “life,” “self,” “person,” “desire,” “appetite,” “emotion” and “passion” (BDB under the word). In the first instance it meant that which breathes, and as such is distinguished from basar, “flesh” (Isaiah 10:18 Deuteronomy 12:23); from she’er, “the inner flesh,” next the bones (Proverbs 11:17, “his own flesh”); from beTen, “belly” (Psalm 31:10, “My soul and my belly are consumed with grief”), etc.

    (2) As the life-breath, it departs at death (Genesis 35:18 Jeremiah 15:2). Hence, the desire among Old Testament saints to be delivered from Sheol (Psalm 16:10, “Thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol”) and from shachath, “the pit” (Job 33:18, “He keepeth back his soul from the pit”; Isaiah 38:17, “Thou hast…. delivered it (my soul) from the pit of corruption”).

    (3) By an easy transition the word comes to stand for the individual, personal life, the person, with two distinct shades of meaning which might best be indicated by the Latin anima and animus. As anima, “soul,” the life inherent in the body, the animating principle in the blood is denoted (compare Deuteronomy 12:23, 24, `Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the soul; and thou shalt not eat the soul with the flesh’). As animus, “mind,” the center of our mental activities and passivities is indicated. Thus we read of `a hungry soul’ (Psalm 107:9), `a weary soul’ (Jeremiah 31:25), `a loathing soul’ (Leviticus 26:11), `a thirsty soul’ (Psalm 42:2), `a grieved soul’ (Job 30:25), `a loving soul’ (Songs 1:7), and many kindred expressions. Cremer has characterized this use of the word in a sentence: “Nephesh (soul) in man is the subject of personal life, whereof pneuma or ruach (spirit) is the principle” (Lexicon, under the word, 795).

    (4) This individuality of man, however, may be denoted by pneuma as well, but with a distinction. Nephesh or “soul” can only denote the individual life with a material organization or body. Pneuma or “spirit” is not so restricted. Scripture speaks of “spirits of just men made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23), where there can be no thought of a material or physical or corporeal organization. They are “spiritual beings freed from the assaults and defilements of the flesh” (Delitzsch, in the place cited.). For an exceptional use of psuche in the same sense see Revelation 6:9; Revelation 20:4, and (irrespective of the meaning of Psalm 16:10) Acts 2:27.

    2. New Testament Distinctions:

    (1) In the New Testament psuche appears under more or less similar conditions as in the Old Testament. The contrast here is as carefully maintained as there. It is used where pneuma would be out of place; and yet it seems at times to be employed where pneuma might have been substituted. Thus in John 19:30 we read: “Jesus gave up his pneuma” to the Father, and, in the same Gospel (John 10:15), Jesus gave up His “psuche for the sheep,” and in Matthew 20:28 He gave His psuche (not His pneuma) as a ransom-a difference which is characteristic. For the pneuma stands in quite a different relation to God from the psuche. The “spirit” (pneuma) is the outbreathing of God into the creature, the life-principle derived from God. The “sour” (psuche) is man’s individual possession, that which distinguishes one man from another and from inanimate nature. The pneuma of Christ was surrendered to the Father in death; His psuche was surrendered, His individual life was given “a ransom for many.” His life “was given for the sheep”

    (2) This explains those expressions in the New Testament which bear on the salvation of the soul and its preservation in the regions of the dead. “Thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades” (the world of shades) (Acts 2:27); “Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil” (Romans 2:9); “We are…. of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul” (Hebrews 10:39); “Receive….. the implanted word, which is able to save your souls” (James 1:21).

    The same or similar expressions may be met with in the Old Testament in reference to the soul. Thus in Psalm 49:8, the King James Version “The redemption of their soul is precious” and again: “God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol” (Psalm 49:15). Perhaps this may explain-at least this is Wendt’s explanation-why even a corpse is called nephesh or soul in the Old Testament, because, in the region of the dead, the individuality is retained and, in a measure, separated from God (compare Haggai 2:13 Leviticus 21:11).

    3. Oehler on Soul and Spirit:

    The distinction between psuche and pneuma, or nephesh and ruach, to which reference has been made, may best be described in the words of Oehler (Old Testament Theology, I, 217): “Man is not spirit, but has it: he is soul….. In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality-in the case of man, his personality, his self, his ego.” He draws attention to the words of Elihu in Job (33:4): `God’s spirit made me,’ the soul called into being; `and the breath of the Almighty animates me,’ the soul kept in energy and strength, in continued existence, by the Almighty, into whose hands the inbreathed spirit is surrendered, when the soul departs or is taken from us (1 Kings 19:4). Hence, according to Oehler the phrases naphshi (“my soul”), naphshekha (“thy soul”) may be rendered in Latin egomet, tu ipse; but not ruchi (“my spirit”), ruchakha (“thy spirit”)-soul standing for the whole person, as in Genesis 12:5; Genesis 17:14 Ezekiel 18:4, etc.
    https://biblehub.com/topical/s/soul.htm

  16. 16
    bornagain77 says:

    as to this claim:

    “When the creature stops breathing, the soul is dead.”

    Is this fact,

    “The moment we take our last breath on earth, we take our first in heaven.”
    – Billy Graham

    “I took my last breath here in the car and I took my first breath there at the gates,” he (Don Piper) said.
    – Describing Heaven: Pastor, Pronounced Dead, Says He Was There
    Minister, car crash survivor Don Piper wrote bestseller about visiting heaven.
    https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/describing-heaven-pastor-don-piper-pronounced-dead/story?id=14214140

  17. 17
    BobRyan says:

    SmartAZ @ 14

    Anyone who has taken any time to try to understand Hebrew at all knows it is the most figurative language on Earth. Every word has great meaning beyond what the translation states. There is a great deal that has been mistranslated from the Tanakh, Jewish Bible, Old Testament. Most translations start with “In the beginning, God created…” A more accurate translation is “When God began to create…” It also does not reference killing as a violation of God’s law, but of murder.

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